Rhino's Rework Is Actually Pretty Lackluster.... He Needs To Be Buffed!

[Zarozian]

Someoen show OP the 1.3 mil Iron Skin

1.3mil will be gone in 3 seconds.

It doesn't work the way you think it does, the absorption really sucks, its more pointless than any help, even the self inflicted damage.

[Zarozian]

...

 

Apparently not many have realized that you can FUEL RHINO'S IRON SKIN WITH EXPLOSIVE SELF DAMAGE.

 

Use a Penta/Kulstar/Talons/CE Hikou Prime/Ogris whatever to fuel your iron skin, use the syndicate augment so you can denoate/reapply whenever.

 

You can now sacrifice power strength for other stats.

 

Keep strength high enough so you that your roar doesn't suck, if your group doesn't need the damage, consider over extended for larger stomp radius.

 

Have taken Rhino into many endless T4 / LoR raids with him performing just fine,

It doesn't matter. Iron Skin will last just as long as it always had even with overpowered self inflicted damage. Plus you can hardly shoot yourself with some of those weapons, and some of those weapons deal scarce damage end game. Just so you know T4 isn't end game, my Rhino could always solo T4 survival over an hour easy, before he got his rework. The new end game is Sentients. 20 level 40 Sentients at the same time. If you aren't able to survive against them and effectively win and kill all of them, then you aren't even close to being a good Rhino.

[FelisImpurrator]

The new end game is Sentients. 20 level 40 Sentients at the same time. If you aren't able to survive against them and effectively win and kill all of them, then you aren't even close to being a good Rhino.

...what.

 

NOW you finally reveal the specific point you're "balancing" for, and it's completely insane. Also impossible outside of the Simulacrum, because you physically cannot spawn twenty Sentients in one moon mission. This explains the sheer shenanigans of the entire thread so far.

 

Fun fact: BullS#&$ hypothetical simulacrum spawns are not the game's balance point. I could spawn a hundred Corrupted Heavy Gunners at the sim's level cap and call that a challenge, but it wouldn't be sane, reasonable, or anywhere even vaguely approaching balanced - it would simply be a joke "let's see how much we can break the game's numbers" setup.

 

The closest thing to an "endgame" balance point this game has is Sortie. And the new Rhino can handle a sortie perfectly well. Therefore, Rhino is fine where he is, and this "you aren't even close to being good unless you can solo facetank twenty disco balls for eternity" is complete nonsense.

Edited December 12, 2015 by FelisImpurrator

[Vargras]

Problem is, frames that CAN tnak the twenty disco balls for eternity DO exist. And those frames make rhino obsolete.

I'm really curious who these frames even are, and what the incredibly niche builds are that allow for it.

 

It's totally irrelevant though, because absolutely nothing should be balanced around being able to solo 20 level 40 sentients at once. That's absolutely insane, and asking for further buffs on top of a rework so you can do that is totally ludicrous.

 

OP's got no semblance of balance.

[Zarozian]

I'm really curious who these frames even are, and what the incredibly niche builds are that allow for it.

 

It's totally irrelevant though, because absolutely nothing should be balanced around being able to solo 20 level 40 sentients at once. That's absolutely insane, and asking for further buffs on top of a rework so you can do that is totally ludicrous.

 

OP's got no semblance of balance.

*cough* Valkyr *cough*

[Zarozian]

I take everything into account for my semblance of balance. Sortie is just mid-game at best.

[Vargras]

*cough* Valkyr *cough*

Unfortunately for you, that doesn't work. Sentients are fully capable of draining energy, and once they do, Valkyr no longer has Hysteria. Her shields are effectively gone, and the armor doesn't help much once she ends up in a war of attrition against an enemy that can become resistant to her attacks, much less twenty of them like you claimed.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Vargras

[Zarozian]

Unfortunately for you, that doesn't work. Sentients are fully capable of draining energy, and once they do, Valkyr no longer has Hysteria. Her shields are effectively gone, and the armor doesn't help much once she ends up in a war of attrition against an enemy that can become resistant to her attacks, much less twenty of them like you claimed.

So you're telling me that energy draining that you speak of works through her hysteria?

You think this energy drain makes it a huge problem for Valkyr?

[FelisImpurrator]

Let's see, we got chroma and his tank build, if you want to call that nince.

We got mirage and her strenth duration build, if you ALSO want to call that nince.

Let's see what else, we got mesa and shatter shield, if the description isn't lying it should be able to tank their damage.

Then we got valky and her hysteria.

A) What's a nince?

B) Since when is balancing around extreme outliers considered good or sensible from a design perspective?

C) Enjoy the energy drain to zero (and that's bad enough with two or three sentients) while you try to chip damage twenty battalysts down to nothing. Then your defensive ability runs out, you fall over, and you die, because why the hell are you using twenty impossible simulacrum spawns as a balance marker in the first place?

 

I take everything into account for my semblance of balance. Sortie is just mid-game at best.

"Sortie is mid-game"? So fighting endless waves of pointless custom-generated holograms (because they don't drop loot or give XP or do anything besides showcase the extreme limits of the spawning engine) with impossible stats (because there is no real game scenario where these enemies would conceivably spawn in this way) is endgame, while fighting the highest-level legitimately spawned enemies for the absolute highest tier of rewards is midgame? Do explain this "logic".

So you're telling me that energy draining that you speak of works through her hysteria?

You think this energy drain makes it a huge problem for Valkyr?

That is literally exactly what is being said. It works when there's ONE sentient; it's bloody well going to work with twenty of them floating around and spewing several flavors of death.

[GnosticCat]

Let's see, we got chroma and his tank build, if you want to call that nince.

We got mirage and her strenth duration build, if you ALSO want to call that nince.

Let's see what else, we got mesa and shatter shield, if the description isn't lying it should be able to tank their damage.

Then we got valky and her hysteria.

 

 

Yep. Because building for duration and power on those frames is TOTALY ludicrous and unusual.

 

Those builds good enough or are they too nince for you?

Why don't you try out some those builds first before declaring that they work?

Valkyr will not work at all, first energy drain, second claws will stop working soon enough,

Mesa will be killed by melee attacks.

[FelisImpurrator]

Why don't you try out some those builds first before declaring that they work?

Valkyr will not work at all, first energy drain, second claws will stop working soon enough,

Mesa will be killed by melee attacks.

Also Mirage doesn't facetank. HoM draws enemy fire, useless against disco dance and murder tornado, and Eclipse doesn't reduce enough damage to keep going forever. Would have had a little more credibility if it claimed Trinity cheeseball build, but eh.

[Zarozian]

A) What's a nince?

B) Since when is balancing around extreme outliers considered good or sensible from a design perspective?

C) Enjoy the energy drain to zero (and that's bad enough with two or three sentients) while you try to chip damage twenty battalysts down to nothing. Then your defensive ability runs out, you fall over, and you die, because why the hell are you using twenty impossible simulacrum spawns as a balance marker in the first place?

 

"Sortie is mid-game"? So fighting endless waves of pointless custom-generated holograms (because they don't drop loot or give XP or do anything besides showcase the extreme limits of the spawning engine) with impossible stats (because there is no real game scenario where these enemies would conceivably spawn in this way) is endgame, while fighting the highest-level legitimately spawned enemies for the absolute highest tier of rewards is midgame? Do explain this "logic".

That is literally exactly what is being said. It works when there's ONE sentient; it's bloody well going to work with twenty of them floating around and spewing several flavors of death.

Anyone MR4 can do it with their maxed out warframe~

 

But as for Sentients only those who are end game can put up a really good fight against so many of them~ :>

 

Unless they are Valkyr of course~ Who just doesn't die no matter what~

[GnosticCat]

Anyone MR4 can do it with their maxed out warframe~

 

But as for Sentients only those who are end game can put up a really good fight against so many of them~ :>

 

Unless they are Valkyr of course~ Who just doesn't die no matter what~

Valkyr dies against energy drain since having hysteria switched to toggle power.

[Gurpgork]

Anyone MR4 can do it with their maxed out warframe~

 

But as for Sentients only those who are end game can put up a really good fight against so many of them~ :>

 

Unless they are Valkyr of course~ Who just doesn't die no matter what~

Correction. Anyone MR4 can attempt to do a sortie with their maxed out Warframe. How many MR4 players do you honestly think could really stand up to level 100 enemies? 

 

Rhino's stomp can completely disable Sentient fighters. What you're saying is that Rhino should be able to entirely facetank all of their attacks when he doesn't even have to do that because he has Stomp. Or am I missing something here? Because it sounds to me like Rhino could actually be one of the better frames for killing Sentients.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Gurpgork

[DSpite]

My two cents on Rhino as I got him with a pack, play him a lot, etc etc.

 

The 3 sec invul that absorbs damage does not really "work" mechanically all that well.

 

If you are facing level 20-30 stuff, you are already almost impossible to kill if you have energy, as if it drops, you have LOTS of time to reapply it before your own shields even get dented, even in fairly hectic scenarios.

 

If you face stuff in the Trials, and lets say, it was already up, then it goes down, and you manage to re-cast it, and THEN face-tank some things in order to get shot for 3 seconds to build up points? If you mistime it even just a little, and you instead get shot at for an extra half a second, that 0.5 seconds of fire coming in from level 60-100 enemies will generally drop IS by massive amounts, like, down to 50% or more. You were standing still absorbing fire from super high level enemies, what did you think would happen?

 

It's far safer and more controlled to say, cast it, and then Penta yourself in the face instantly, and that kind of concept irks me no end, and no I have not been doing it.

 

Also, at some stage, you are always sitting on ~10% IS left. It's not high enough to give you a decent chance to run through a group of enemies safely, and yet, you can't re-apply it without playing peek-a-boo around a corner or what I do now, jump in death pits and re-spawn, also something that irks me, and yes, I will do that if I have to run out and revive someone, on top of using Stop to get some free seconds of  not getting shot at.

 

I don't know what the "fix" is, I just know IS is still not the way it should be.

[DSpite]

Just nuke yourself when casting iron skin.

Done. Seriously it is better than wasting mod slots for power strength.

 

Heck do you even need iron skin now ?

Since now you can spam his 4 practically forever and don't give a crap.

 

A 58.8m RADIUS aoe stuns for everyone.

If that is not safe enough for you, I don't even know what is safe :/

 

Yea, I realize you can do this this, and that is what bugs me. I'd prefer decent, logical game play mechanics that stand on their own, rather then prepping a corner with 5 Penta rounds then blowing them up with me on top of them to "Skin Up".

 

It's kind of tragic that's a viable tactic. I have not tried standing in Void Lasers though. That might be funny.

[GnosticCat]

My two cents on Rhino as I got him with a pack, play him a lot, etc etc.

 

The 3 sec invul that absorbs damage does not really "work" mechanically all that well.

 

If you are facing level 20-30 stuff, you are already almost impossible to kill if you have energy, as if it drops, you have LOTS of time to reapply it before your own shields even get dented, even in fairly hectic scenarios.

 

If you face stuff in the Trials, and lets say, it was already up, then it goes down, and you manage to re-cast it, and THEN face-tank some things in order to get shot for 3 seconds to build up points? If you mistime it even just a little, and you instead get shot at for an extra half a second, that 0.5 seconds of fire coming in from level 60-100 enemies will generally drop IS by massive amounts, like, down to 50% or more. You were standing still absorbing fire from super high level enemies, what did you think would happen?

 

It's far safer and more controlled to say, cast it, and then Penta yourself in the face instantly, and that kind of concept irks me no end, and no I have not been doing it.

 

Also, at some stage, you are always sitting on ~10% IS left. It's not high enough to give you a decent chance to run through a group of enemies safely, and yet, you can't re-apply it without playing peek-a-boo around a corner or what I do now, jump in death pits and re-spawn, also something that irks me, and yes, I will do that if I have to run out and revive someone, on top of using Stop to get some free seconds of  not getting shot at.

 

I don't know what the "fix" is, I just know IS is still not the way it should be.

You can use augment for iron skin to be able to recast it any time.

[GnosticCat]

Yea, I realize you can do this this, and that is what bugs me. I'd prefer decent, logical game play mechanics that stand on their own, rather then prepping a corner with 5 Penta rounds then blowing them up with me on top of them to "Skin Up".

 

It's kind of tragic that's a viable tactic. I have not tried standing in Void Lasers though. That might be funny.

It is pity in this case that iron skin protects from procs as you might otherwise get rad proc from laser and then rest of squad could also add some damage to skin.

[DSpite]

Problem is, frames that CAN tnak the twenty disco balls for eternity DO exist. And those frames make rhino obsolete.

 

Limbo can "tank" a Super Nova explosion, and yet DE made the little eye ball in the 2nd Dream still hit him for "balance purposes".

 

We can do only what we can do only because DE allows it. If we "break" the combats against the disco balls too much, I'll let you guess what will happen.

[Zarozian]

Correction. Anyone MR4 can attempt to do a sortie with their maxed out Warframe. How many MR4 players do you honestly think could really stand up to level 100 enemies? 

 

Rhino's stomp can completely disable Sentient fighters. What you're saying is that Rhino should be able to entirely facetank all of their attacks when he doesn't even have to do that because he has Stomp. Or am I missing something here? Because it sounds to me like Rhino could actually be one of the better frames for killing Sentients.

Sentients gain immunity to CC and resistance to all abilities once they've been hit with it.

 

It doesn't work. We've already tried that.

[Eftycchia]

Rhino has Loki speed, let's give him Loki-tier ability too is basically what i'm getting here.

I'm dissapoint at how many people is still dissapointed by Rhino's capabilities.

[Zarozian]

Rhino has Loki speed, let's give him Loki-tier ability too is basically what i'm getting here.

I'm dissapoint at how many people is still dissapointed by Rhino's capabilities.

Cause many people don't see nor feel an improvement to his Iron Skin. Here's the proof: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/577263-rhinos-iron-skin/

 

People can't even feel the difference between the new one and the old one or one that's stronger or weaker. He needs more armor or higher Iron Skin armor multipliers.

 

Also Rhino Prime needs Arcane Vanguard Helmet to achieve Loki speeds.

 

Regular Rhino can't achieve that sort of speed at all even with the helment. Plus this Arcane Vanguard Helmet is nonexistent nowadays, only the oldest players still have it or those who wanted it badly enough and bought it from an older player for 400P or more.

[Eftycchia]

Cause many people don't see nor feel an improvement to his Iron Skin. Here's the proof: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/577263-rhinos-iron-skin/

 

People can't even feel the difference between the new one and the old one or one that's stronger or weaker. He needs more armor or higher Iron Skin armor multipliers.

 

Also Rhino Prime needs Arcane Vanguard Helmet to achieve Loki speeds.

 

Regular Rhino can't achieve that sort of speed at all even with the helment. Plus this Arcane Vanguard Helmet is nonexistent nowadays, only the oldest players still have it or those who wanted it badly enough and bought it from an older player for 400P or more.

Vanguard sadly is the helmet which DE is revolving the rhino updates on. Stock rhino is as fast as nyx prime and rhino prime is as fast as both loki with the helmet.

 

To be honest i'm pretty uncomfortable with it but since i do have the arcane vanguard helmet too i probably can't say anything about it.

[Leriel]

Just note that Iron Skin only absorbs 25% total damage of self-explosion from explosive weapons. Roar doesn't affect the damage of self-explosion. A fully modded Angstrum can allow you to have 32k hp from absorption alone.  

[Zarozian]

Vanguard sadly is the helmet which DE is revolving the rhino updates on. Stock rhino is as fast as nyx prime and rhino prime is as fast as both loki with the helmet.

 

To be honest i'm pretty uncomfortable with it but since i do have the arcane vanguard helmet too i probably can't say anything about it.

Exactly. =/

 

Just note that Iron Skin only absorbs 25% total damage of self-explosion from explosive weapons. Roar doesn't affect the damage of self-explosion. A fully modded Angstrum can allow you to have 32k hp from absorption alone.  

See that sucks even more to know now. =/

 

He needs and deserves that armor buff.