Anti-One-Shot Mechanics.

[EmptyDevil]

You forget the 10 second cooldown. If they insta recharged them, they could still get one shoted due to the simple fact that the shield gate wouldnt activate.

I simply think Empty_Devil got it Right. Gurl/Boy, you should make a thread about it and develop it more. This thrrad has basicaly derailed into one about it.

 

Will do when i finish covering enough info and trying to fit in as much detail as i can think of.

[CS0310]

I say a hard NO to any form of invincibility for any period of time. That being said... Someone else suggested something very similar. Damage doesn't bleed through shields. Aka say you have 100 health and 100 shields. You take 1000 damage. Your shields are gone- your health is untouched. You take another 1000 damage. You are now dead.

 

It's a simple you-cannot-be-one-shot mechanic, but it is not overpowered. It scales infinitely. No matter how much damage an enemy does, it will never one-shot you. True- late enough game any high rof enemy is still going to shred you; but firstly the whole point of enemy scaling is to kill you eventually, so that's not an issue, and secondly it's better than what we have now and it would encourage moving around and paying attention even more than it does now- once you are at that point.

 

THAT is a mechanic I would approve of. I figured since it's very similar to this I'd just bring it up.

 

Kind of bitter for the OP, but this is the better solution :D

[(PSN)MrNishi]

You forget the 10 second cooldown. If they insta recharged them, they could still get one shoted due to the simple fact that the shield gate wouldnt activate.

I simply think Empty_Devil got it Right. Gurl/Boy, you should make a thread about it and develop it more. This thrrad has basicaly derailed into one about it.

He said the Shield-Gate Invincibility would be on Cooldown, but that Shield would still Gate from damage pouring over to health.

As long as a Player was diligent in replenishing Shields manually the Invincibility window would be on cooldown, but they could keep forcing damage to only deplete Shields.

I see what you're referring to now. It wouldn't be a buff and i'll explain why with the following example:

- Valkyr has 150300.

- Valkyr uses Hysteria to become invulnerable.

- Valkyr's shield collapse immunity is flagged as active for the duration of hysteria.

- Valkyr accumulates 2,100 damage while Hysteria is active.(Keep in mind that she only receives 25% of this damage if enemies are within her aura)

- Valkyr toggles Hysteria off while enemies are within Hysteria's aura.

- Valkyr's shield collapse invulnerability immediately goes into cooldown.

- Valkyr's receives 525 damage out of the amount she accumulated and her shields are immediately destroyed.

...

Invulnerability is already on Cooldown

Yet Remaining Shields still Gate Health damage - Just no Invulnerability window

(Only Shields get depleted by the 525 damage and not her health)

Edited December 26, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[RealPandemonium]

Why argue over the theoretical nitty-gritty of a proposed bandaid?  Why aren't we demanding a fix to enemy stat spreads instead?  Balancing for 100+ enemies has been a complete failure.  Let's ask for content that's actually meaningful, instead?

[EmptyDevil]

Let's ask for content that's actually meaningful, instead?

 

Like?

[EmptyDevil]

He said the Shield-Gate Invincibility would be on Cooldown, but that Shield would still Gate from damage pouring over to health.

As long as a Player was diligent in replenishing Shields manually the Invincibility window would be on cooldown, but they could keep forcing damage to only deplete Shields.

Invulnerability is already on Cooldown

Yet Remaining Shields still Gate Health damage - Just no Invulnerability window

(Only Shields get depleted by the 525 damage and not her health)

 

It really wouldn't be OP. There was a suggestion for it to completely bypass the gate too. Why are you talking about this specific thing?

[Naqel]

The best anti-one-shot would be for the game to be balanced properly.

 

That means some things would have to be toned down, both enemies and players.

 

Good luck explaining to the children that make up the majority of players that toning down is not a "nerf".

[Epsik-kun]

The best anti-one-shot would be for the game to be balanced properly.

The best doesn't means "the easiest". It's incredibly easy to implement shield gate. It's a ton of work to rebalance the whole game. I can't create a thread about "Hey, DE, rebalance the game". They are doing it all the time.

 

Kind of bitter for the OP, but this is the better solution :D

It is a solution, but it's is a terribly specific solution which won't make any difference in majority of cases, while managing to leave more room for weird abuse. Yet it is still better that what we have now, so I'm all up for it.

[Naftal]

I don't think this is needed until they nerf our OP abilities which remove all threats currently.

 

No point making things any easier.

[(PSN)TrueDeMoN100]

 

Thoughts:

One of the things that bothers me in Warframe is a high amount of literal one-shots caused by broken scaling in the game.

I do realise, that having myself overstayed in, say, T4S, I have to face some danger, so the fact of the scaling is perfectly fine. But the way it does its work it's end up in few particular enemies being able to destroy you in a blink of an eye.

And this game has a problem, that's called lag. You can be good like a god, move around like a wind and dodge bullets like a Neo, but if the game lags just for a moment, boom - you eat three bombard missiles with you backside, now you're dead, deal with it.

 

I don't like being helpless in a game. I don't like the feeling of frustration of not being able to do anything, to not have any control over the situation, to not have any chance to save myself, no matter how hard might it be.

Really, dying in a game knowing you might survived have you reacted faster/done better is a whole different feeling, than just dying because of "to hell with you, I am lvl 100 Corpus Tech".

 

So what I am asking about is - how about introducing a mechanics, that will prevent literal one-shots. For example, in Borderlands there's a thing called "Health Gate", which essentially means you can't die in one shot, if you have over 50%+2 HP. If you receive a blow, that could've killed you right away, you'll go down to 1 HP and get a few frames of invulnerability, so you can do something about it.

It brought quite a weird way of playing though, which is resulted in lowering you maximum HP to an absurdly low number (like having 500 hp against enemies that deal several thousands of damage with every shot) and life-stealing all the time.

And, given Warframe has few sources of lifesteal or quick healing, doing exactly the same thing might result in the same weirdness.

 

However, Warframe also has shields, which are as far as I know pretty hard to keep recharging in the heat of the combat. So why don't use them for this?

Like, if you have any shield up, and you receive a blow that could've killed you immediately, you won't be able to die for like half of a second, giving you a brief period of time to finish casting your CC, finish getting behind the cover and such.

 

tl;dr How about making your shield prevent you from dying instantly by giving you about a half second immunity to death (not damage) when they go down?

 

I think this is a good idea because I have been one shotted in those moments like when you join a sortie and its laggy at first because everything is loading and the frame rate slows down on the ps4 When this happens by the time I get to move im already down.  Sometimes  this is a lag issue other times its just the PS4's framerate slowing down heavly. This also occurs in moments when your still on the loading screen but you hear the gunshots and your enemies dying but when you finally load in the game. You spawn in already down and bleeding out.

 

I say a hard NO to any form of invincibility for any period of time. That being said... Someone else suggested something very similar. Damage doesn't bleed through shields. Aka say you have 100 health and 100 shields. You take 1000 damage. Your shields are gone- your health is untouched. You take another 1000 damage. You are now dead.

 

It's a simple you-cannot-be-one-shot mechanic, but it is not overpowered. It scales infinitely. No matter how much damage an enemy does, it will never one-shot you. True- late enough game any high rof enemy is still going to shred you; but firstly the whole point of enemy scaling is to kill you eventually, so that's not an issue, and secondly it's better than what we have now and it would encourage moving around and paying attention even more than it does now- once you are at that point.

 

THAT is a mechanic I would approve of. I figured since it's very similar to this I'd just bring it up.

 

I have to disagree with you, unless this is something new developed in the pc ver this does not happen on the ps4. Your shields and health both go down together at the same exact time. There have been multiple instances of this happening for many ps4 users including myself. If you have 100 shield & health and you get hit for 1000 damage your losing both your health, shield, & go down. It will not take the shield and leave you with hp to be hit by another shot.

Edited December 26, 2015 by (PS4)TrueDeMoN100

[RealPandemonium]

Like?

Content that isn't balanced around bullet sponge enemies that one-shot us but it's ok because we make them not matter with mass CC, effective invulnerability, and overtuned weapons.  

[(PSN)MrNishi]

It really wouldn't be OP. There was a suggestion for it to completely bypass the gate too. Why are you talking about this specific thing?

The Specific thing is the 2-part mechanic

Invincibility Mechanic which has Cooldown

Then the mechanic as long as there are 'Shields Present' damage will not Bleed over to Health (aside from Shield bypass damage)

This means restoring Shields will whether by ability or Shield Restores will keep health from being 1-shotted.

Not an issue of just Valkyr Hysteria.

It wouldn't be balanced.

The option of removing the Shield-gate protection without Cooldown means while cooldown is in play a frame could be 1shotted with Max Over-shields & max Health.

(This seems like the type of 1-shot that wants to be avoided)

If the 'Shield Gate' of just any Shields protects from 1-instance of damage depleting both Shields and attacking health is on Cooldown with Shield restorative abilities & Hysteria/Defy/Undertow/etc..

-Then it would be a Shield-Gate mechanic only for a small number of WarFrames- meaning it is not a viable mechanic for all Warframes

Remember when Shield Transference treated Shields as a Psuedo-Iron Skin for Mag:

Not letting Her health get touched if she had Shields up.

Allowing any amount of Shields protect from a 1-shot while Invincibility window is on Cooldown, would still be abused and unbalanced.

[EmptyDevil]

Content that isn't balanced around bullet sponge enemies that one-shot us but it's ok because we make them not matter with mass CC, effective invulnerability, and overtuned weapons.  

 

You do realize that isn't going to happen until DE does something to allow us to deal with said bullet sponges without constant CC spam, right? So what was the point of your previous message? I'm curious.

[EmptyDevil]

Allowing any amount of Shields protect from a 1-shot while Invincibility window is on Cooldown, would still be abused and unbalanced.

 

No, it's not. That is how a shield gate is suppose to work; any amount of shields will prevent the player from taking a oneshot kill. If it worked the way you want it to, then only frames that can spam shield restoring abilities would be looked at. There would be no change in the specific frame/niche set up.

 

You keep looking at the mechanic as if every mission is going to be a 1v1 fight with an enemy that has a 0.25 round/sec fire rate. That is not the case with Warframe. There is always a lot of enemies that are constantly firing at you.

[Stratego89]

I have to disagree with you, unless this is something new developed in the pc ver this does not happen on the ps4. Your shields and health both go down together at the same exact time. There have been multiple instances of this happening for many ps4 users including myself. If you have 100 shield & health and you get hit for 1000 damage your losing both your health, shield, & go down. It will not take the shield and leave you with hp to be hit by another shot.

M8, I wasn't saying that's how things work. I was saying that's how things SHOULD work so we can't be one shot... read it over again.

[Naqel]

I can't create a thread about "Hey, DE, rebalance the game". They are doing it all the time.

 

You should though, everyone should.

 

DE has a nasty tendency to do compartmentalized balance passes on a single aspect/weapon/frame at a time, without any real rhyme or reason beyond "people complain about that thing a lot".

 

If we, as a community, collectively complained about brining the game to a unified, consistent, balance point, then maybe DE would do just that.

 

But as I mentioned before, the community is a bunch of children, or child-brained "adults", who do not understand simple concepts, like: healthy design environment, or toning down singular offending items(the dreaded "nerf") in place of re-balancing the entire game around their power point(the idiotic "buff everything else").

Edited December 26, 2015 by Naqel

[Epsik-kun]

You should though, everyone should.

But that's wrong. DE are perfectly aware of that, there's no need to remind them about it 24/7.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

No, it's not. That is how a shield gate is suppose to work; any amount of shields will prevent the player from taking a oneshot kill. If it worked the way you want it to, then only frames that can spam shield restoring abilities would be looked at. There would be no change in the specific frame/niche set up.

You keep looking at the mechanic as if every mission is going to be a 1v1 fight with an enemy that has a 0.25 round/sec fire rate. That is not the case with Warframe. There is always a lot of enemies that are constantly firing at you.

No I was also thinking of Frames that while casting a CC ability - tend to take a hit.

There would be nothing to prevent them from dropping a Shield Restore (or spamming Shield Restores) while casting said CC-ability to about their health being drained.

It would be like letting Energy-drain abilities still receive energy from Restores.

Loki casting Radial Disarm- currently can get 1-shot

With this proposed change he casts Radial Disarm- while casting he can drop 2-restores in case he gets hit once

Shields get depleted at start of animation 1st Shield restore covers him from taking health damage or 2nd restore right before Animation ends - same thing Shield restore to cover in case he is about to take damage removing his Shield.

Currently Full Health-Restores in the game only work on One-shots as long as timing was precise.

Shield Restores being more readily abundant and also having restoration ticks means you can spam Restores to tick continuously by off-setting them.

Currently spamming Shield Restores can/will still result in a 1-shot

With this method Arcane Barrier, plus Shield Restores (No abilities) needed would result in eating multiple Shield depletions but not deaths (Not counting Guardian or Protect)

Like the same way players solo Endurance Moon test. (You can solo Moon test while still taking Heavy fire during Corpus/Sentient Survival)* No abilities used

But that could be fine as it would not be different than spamming Energy Restores while using AoE Radial Nuke abilities

Edited December 26, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[EmptyDevil]

No I was also thinking of Frames that while casting a CC ability - tend to take a hit.

There would be nothing to prevent them from dropping a Shield Restore (or spamming Shield Restores) while casting said CC-ability to about their health being drained.

It would be like letting Energy-drain abilities still receive energy from Restores.

Loki casting Radial Disarm- currently can get 1-shot

With this proposed change he casts Radial Disarm- while casting he can drop 2-restores in case he gets hit once

Shields get depleted at start of animation 1st Shield restore covers him from taking health damage or 2nd restore right before Animation ends - same thing Shield restore to cover in case he is about to take damage removing his Shield.

Currently Full Health-Restores in the game only work on One-shots as long as timing was precise.

Shield Restores being more readily abundant and also having restoration ticks means you can spam Restores to tick continuously by off-setting them.

Currently spamming Shield Restores can/will still result in a 1-shot

With this method Arcane Barrier, plus Shield Restores (No abilities) needed would result in eating multiple Shield depletions but not deaths (Not counting Guardian or Protect)

Like the same way players solo Endurance Moon test. (You can solo Moon test while still taking Heavy fire during Corpus/Sentient Survival)* No abilities used

But that could be fine as it would not be different than spamming Energy Restores while using AoE Radial Nuke abilities

 

So you're saying a player could spam shield restores to apply another gate? I don't see this as abuse because that player is spending resources to survive. This also gives those restores more of a point as well because when you get to the point of needing to spam shield restores, the enemies are eating your shields/health in mere seconds.

[RealPandemonium]

You do realize that isn't going to happen until DE does something to allow us to deal with said bullet sponges without constant CC spam, right? So what was the point of your previous message? I'm curious.

They should remove these situations from normal gameplay, period.  Removing armor scaling and altering ratios of our durability potential vs enemy damage at higher levels would be a good start, and they could tweak from there.  The game is still in beta, after all.  Asking for more bandaids only prolongs the ever-present problem.  As long as the core is rotten, everything that stems from it will continue to stink.  

[EmptyDevil]

They should remove these situations from normal gameplay, period.  Removing armor scaling and altering ratios of our durability potential vs enemy damage at higher levels would be a good start, and they could tweak from there.  The game is still in beta, after all.  Asking for more bandaids only prolongs the ever-present problem.  As long as the core is rotten, everything that stems from it will continue to stink.  

 

I think this is something everyone agrees on but we are unsure if the devs want to remove armor scaling and the like. It would also be a very large task that you probably shouldn't hold your breath on. So until such a thing happens, we can ask for small additions, fixes, tweaks, or 'bandaids' to allow us to enjoy what we currently have.

[RealPandemonium]

I think this is something everyone agrees on but we are unsure if the devs want to remove armor scaling and the like. It would also be a very large task that you probably shouldn't hold your breath on. So until such a thing happens, we can ask for small additions, fixes, tweaks, or 'bandaids' to allow us to enjoy what we currently have.

I understand where you're coming from.  People end up liking one option or another and want it to be relevant in more content.

 

But then, we have things like armor scaling, which makes no sense.  Grineer become 25x more durable where other factions are 4-8x more durable.  In what world is that a good idea?  Did they even think this through?  At least from my perspective, it's just neglect and has been for years.  The community should be highlighting these things resoundingly, but most players aren't even aware of them.  

 

Tackling individual aspects of enemy scaling issues wouldn't even be that difficult.  Literally changing a coefficient could be an initial measure for the armor scaling problem.  DE just doesn't care, and it's too costly to care (vs the tangible benefits of caring.)  It's up to Warframe's community to show that they care, so that DE's cost-benefit analysis shifts in favor of taking meaningful steps to make this a game again.  

 

That's why I make posts like these, and I make them in threads like this because it is in these threads that these issues are highlighted, whereas a standalone thread about these issues would maybe get upvoted a few times and then fall off the front page with little discussion or noisy non-discussion.  

[EmptyDevil]

I made a thread specifically for player shield gates here:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/586047-shield-gates-for-players/

 

I understand where you're coming from.  People end up liking one option or another and want it to be relevant in more content.

 

But then, we have things like armor scaling, which makes no sense.  Grineer become 25x more durable where other factions are 4-8x more durable.  In what world is that a good idea?  Did they even think this through?  At least from my perspective, it's just neglect and has been for years.  The community should be highlighting these things resoundingly, but most players aren't even aware of them.  

 

Tackling individual aspects of enemy scaling issues wouldn't even be that difficult.  Literally changing a coefficient could be an initial measure for the armor scaling problem.  DE just doesn't care, and it's too costly to care (vs the tangible benefits of caring.)  It's up to Warframe's community to show that they care, so that DE's cost-benefit analysis shifts in favor of taking meaningful steps to make this a game again.  

 

That's why I make posts like these, and I make them in threads like this because it is in these threads that these issues are highlighted, whereas a standalone thread about these issues would maybe get upvoted a few times and then fall off the front page with little discussion or noisy non-discussion.  

 

I think a good solution for enemy armor is to give them a cap on how much damage they can shave off at max. I think DE cares but doesn't know how to approach the issue.

Edited December 27, 2015 by EmptyDevil