So Should Loki Get Rebalanced?

[SoIaris]

I dont think loki needs a rebalance in the slightest, right now he's a good and "almost" balanced frame (His augments make him a little bit too powerful). 

 

I chose loki first when I started this game, back when he was a starter, and had tons of fun with him. However, as time has moved on he's just grown more and more boring considering all you have to do to win is spam 2 and 4 with his seemingly endless energy pool in anything not end level.

 

A rework would be appreciated greatly, to make him more fun to play over longer periods of time, but also unnecessary because he's already fine. 

 

Still waiting on that limbo rework though

[Dr_Dac]

Can we focus on Loki and stop bringing other frames into this. I started thread to talk about Loki only that ain't being rebalanced. I will say this again; their is no scaling on Loki's disarm, and enemies have no reaction to stealth frame.

And please, don't try to provoke other players. Can't we be nature without being so Salty? -_-

 

People are "salty" because your "rebalance" is just another word for nerfing. What happened for you to want a certain warframe to essentially

disappear?  Loki has 2 powers, one is invisibility, the second disarming. With Naramon i can play Valkyr,Exalibur,Atlas,Chroma,Wukong,Volt and so

many more in a near perma cloak(which is not removed by Nullyfier by the way).

 

Other CC abilities like Rhino Stomp, Nyx Chaos, Mirage Blind, Excalibur Blind and so on and so on, also have no scaling. What you want is

a nerf to Loki not a rework or rebalance, stop trying to sugarcoat your intentions.

 

Loki has either LONG stealth or disarm and SHORT stealth. To make both even half viable he basically has to reduce his defense so far even

Maggots become a danger.

 

I am not trying to provoke you, i am however provoked by the way you adress your concerns. You nearly sound like one of our politicans.

Cut to the case, you want enemies to react to stealth, that is an AI issue and there are mods ELIMINATING noise. So it would need an

extensive patrol and visual AI overhaul which in Warframe is simply not needed.

 

Then you wink around a flag with "scaling". 75% slow has no scaling, Stun has no scaling, Blind has no scaling. If you want to nerf Crowd

control abilities then you better give us a ways to defend our frames, because the current game is built around "shoot first ask later"

[viperveteran]

Trinity is the only healer, and lazy people often refuse to go into a mission if they don't have the assurance of being spamed by blessing. If we had another different healer, maybe she wouldn't seem too amazing.

We do his name is Oberon

[vrdwrst]

People are "salty" because your "rebalance" is just another word for nerfing. What happened for you to want a certain warframe to essentially

disappear?  Loki has 2 powers, one is invisibility, the second disarming. With Naramon i can play Valkyr,Exalibur,Atlas,Chroma,Wukong,Volt and so

many more in a near perma cloak(which is not removed by Nullyfier by the way).

 

Other CC abilities like Rhino Stomp, Nyx Chaos, Mirage Blind, Excalibur Blind and so on and so on, also have no scaling. What you want is

a nerf to Loki not a rework or rebalance, stop trying to sugarcoat your intentions.

 

Loki has either LONG stealth or disarm and SHORT stealth. To make both even half viable he basically has to reduce his defense so far even

Maggots become a danger.

 

I am not trying to provoke you, i am however provoked by the way you adress your concerns. You nearly sound like one of our politicans.

Cut to the case, you want enemies to react to stealth, that is an AI issue and there are mods ELIMINATING noise. So it would need an

extensive patrol and visual AI overhaul which in Warframe is simply not needed.

 

Then you wink around a flag with "scaling". 75% slow has no scaling, Stun has no scaling, Blind has no scaling. If you want to nerf Crowd

control abilities then you better give us a ways to defend our frames, because the current game is built around "shoot first ask later"

Regardless of why, you shouldn't call someone a whiner. If that wasn't meant to provoke I don't know what it was.

We do his name is Oberon

Hail the goat god

[Ibro156]

Okay, Loki is great Warframe from players perspective as it is able to handle multiple situations quite easily. But from gameplay perspective, they has to be negatives with the positives.

Am sorry how I set it out. But invis warframes are the issue. They can hide from cambat. Enemies have no reaction.

And for CC warframes like Nova. She able to slow down enemies (that psostive), but they do massive increase in damage (negative). While disarming just forces ranged enemies into close comat, which can be easily avoided. You can say he has low health and armour, but he can make it up with his speed. Especially with parkour 2.0, dodging around cause enemies' lost in accuracy.

The way of enemy react A.Is react to invis players is not healthly for the game. I understand that Loki is great frame, but he seems to great for game. In fact only time changed was doing bit damage with disarm to melee units.

Try to understand from gameplay aspect, rather then player aspect. This could be first step to better stealth gameplay in Warframe. And yes am b!tching about Loki, and yes they are issues with other frames like WuKong and Val. I understand that, but let resolve the oldest issues, before the newer ones. :)

Edited January 3, 2016 by Ibro156

[Dr_Dac]

Regardless of why, you shouldn't call someone a whiner. If that wasn't meant to provoke I don't know what it was.

Hail the goat god

 

I simply lack a better word for the 100th topic this month that basically reads out.

 

"my gaming expirience is impacted by a certain thing and the game needs to change so that i feel good"

 

Warframe is a game with constant change, we players adapt and take the options provided to us and

have fun. I just fail to see his point for me it feels like whining, despite that i do not want to provoke him

as a person.

[Dr_Dac]

Okay, Loki is great Warframe from players perspective as it is able to handle multiple situations quite easily. But from gameplay perspective, they has to be negatives with the positives.

Am sorry how I set it out. But invis warframes are the issue. They can hide from cambat. Enemies have no reaction.

And for CC warframes like Nova. She able to slow down enemies (that psostive), but they do massive increase in damage (negative). While disarming just forces ranged enemies into close comat, which can be easily avoided. You can say he has low health and armour, but he can make it up with his speed. Especially with parkour 2.0, dodging around cause enemies' will have lost in accuracy.

The way of enemy react A.Is react to invis players is not health for the game. I understand that Loki is great frame, but he seems to great for game. I fact only time changed was doing bit damage with disarm to melee units.

Try to understand from gameplay aspect, rather then player aspect. This could be first step to better stealth gameplay in Warframe. And yes am b!tching about Loki, and yes they are issues with other frames like WuKong and Val. I understand that, but let resolve the oldest issues, before the newer ones. :)

No the damage boost is the damage taken (200%) primed targets do not deal more damage. A speed nova on the other hand speeds up

the Enemy which in return makes it deal more damage.

 

Despite the slogan "Ninjas play free" Warframe offers very little "stealth" gameplay. Ai pathing is random, the recently implemented 5 meter death

alert reduces stealth further. Lets face it here currently we can remove the vision and sound, and they still get alerted.

 

Before they improve the AI system any change to any warframe has little to no impact on your desired Stealth.

[Ibro156]

I simply lack a better word for the 100th topic this month that basically reads out.

"my gaming expirience is impacted by a certain thing and the game needs to change so that i feel good"

Warframe is a game with constant change, we players adapt and take the options provided to us and

have fun. I just fail to see his point for me it feels like whining, despite that i do not want to provoke him

as a person.

True, I want to see the game grow myself. But don't want one frame not be allowed to be changed because community will go ape sh!it about it.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Ibro156

[Dr_Dac]

If you have nothing contmstructive to say, please don't reply to this topic

 

To be constructive a topic with a certain base information and start for a discussion is needed.

Also if i understand your intention correctly you basically are saying :

"i disagree with your point please leave the discussion"

First if you remove opposition it is not a Discussion anymore, second

if your post is not "salty" i don't know what is.

 

Back to your Topic, your adressed points lack substance, you provide no insight

how the proposed changes would improve the game. Your Topic is hollow and more

of a post-bait than anything.

[BlueFalcon13]

While Loki has an awesome toolkit, which works well with itself, Loki does not rely on his toolkit to do damage.

Loki is fairly easy to mod, and does not require extensive forma either.

Compare this to excal, who had a completely worthless skill, and nasty sharp damage drop off on his ult (pre-rework), and a very meh slashdash, or frost who was next to impossible to mod for multiple purpose (bubble and serious dmg).

[deathstar2190]

lol he needs to be able use his 2nd because his is VERY squishy

donest he have like 75 health and sheilds un ranked?

[LeaserResael]

See this is what clouds people minds the most. That to be OP, you have to deal high amounts of damage, which is false. Loki outright removes difficulty from factions, iniviblity is essentially a cheat code when you see how AI acts to it. AoE weapons are removed via disarm, focing them to melee combat.

 

When you say Rhino is more overpowered than Loki, i can tell this person has played little of Loki.

Sure, whatever you say. I main loki, It was my starting frame when I started playing almost 2 years ago, and at first I thought it was S#&$, only with time I managed to make him good. So yeah, whatever you say, I totally don't use Loki.

Oh, also, go with a loki and don't use weapons on a Sup, Def, int or any other mission. Let's see how you manage to kill anyone... oh wait, you can't kill anyone with loki. He NEEDS weapons to kill things, other frames can do damage.

Loki can disarm, yes, but play solo in a sup/def/int/etc, once you're far along and lots of nullis or ospreys basically cover the entire screen I want to see how you manage to stay alive, do damage and disarm enemies all at once... 

I find funny the "invisibility = cheat code". Yeah, I didn't know that Invi can block those napalm and those bombers and every other aoe attack in the game. I mean, Ivara is a double cheat code right? I mean, she has infinite invis (no need to recast) and also has offensive skills...

I think you're the one that doesn't use Loki much. You're just going "Invis = cheat code because reasons", the IA is S#&$ yes. But the same IA applies to the whole game, not just Invis.

Loki is far from being OP, people throw that word around and don't even know what it means.

 

Not sure how people consider Loki squishy when you combine Prime Flow, Quick Thinking and Rage if needed. He is reasonably tanky with really nice health pool with just 2 of those mods.

Of course you can use those mods, you can use them in any frame and get the same results or even better(as Loki's stats are lower than almost every other frame) but forget about an invis or a radial builds using those mods.

Edited January 4, 2016 by LeaserResael

[viperveteran]

I think this actually more about enemy stealth AI than loki and his invisibility. If you shoot enemies with a silent weapon from a concealed location even with a non invis frame the enemies aren't too bothered. They do a searching animation which I would say is the caution phase but only one enemy does that. They should form a search party to investigate the body and then the area surrounding the body like metal gear.

 

The reason that enemies aren't reacting the way you want them to is because when using a silenced weapon whilst cloaked the enemies can neither hear nor see where the projectile came from. That seems reasonable to me but I think the AI should take a leaf out of the batman franchise book i.e. enemies start be scared/weary when they see an ally killed and adopt behaviour that reflects it. This panic phase should not stop stealth kills though.

 

When you shoot an enemy with an alarming weapon from invis it alerts them to your presence and often they go running to the alarm console. Shooting them with an alarming weapon pretty much sends all the enemies into caution mode which stops stealth kills. If during that time you become uncloaked for too long you can kiss your *** goodbye.

 

His disarm is only valued by players who do long runs, no one gives two *&%$ about disarm when they can still one shot enemies with their multi formad weapons or nuke with their damage frames lol. Like I said before when the enemies aren't getting insta-killed and are able to fire back that is when people care about it. It is in the later levels that it starts to shine, again like I said before you still need sufficient fire power to kill those disarmed enemies.

 

Loki is a utility frame he is a frame that promotes a strategic playstyle by nature, I think that maybe there should be more pure utility frames in the game so that loki's balancing is easier to understand. I actually think loki is in need of a buff.

Edited January 4, 2016 by viperveteran

[Buzkyl]

Sure, whatever you say. I main loki, It was my starting frame when I started playing almost 2 years ago, and at first I thought it was S#&$, only with time I managed to make him good. So yeah, whatever you say, I totally don't use Loki.

Oh, also, go with a loki and don't use weapons on a Sup, Def, int or any other mission. Let's see how you manage to kill anyone... oh wait, you can't kill anyone with loki. He NEEDS weapons to kill things, other frames can do damage.

Loki can disarm, yes, but play solo in a sup/def/int/etc, once you're far along and lots of nullis or ospreys basically cover the entire screen I want to see how you manage to stay alive, do damage and disarm enemies all at once... 

I find funny the "invisibility = cheat code". Yeah, I didn't know that Invi can block those napalm and those bombers and every other aoe attack in the game. I mean, Ivara is a double cheat code right? I mean, she has infinite invis (no need to recast) and also has offensive skills...

I think you're the one that doesn't use Loki much. You're just going "Invis = cheat code because reasons", the IA is S#&$ yes. But the same IA applies to the whole game, not just Invis.

Loki is far from being OP, people throw that word around and don't even know what it means.

 

 

5 step Loki process

 

 

Step 1.  Go invisible (2)

Step 2. Disarm range units (4)

Step 3. Shoot down nullifyer bubble while you're invisble

Step 4. See step 2 (4)

Step 5. Enjoy fighting melee units

 

That is not hard, At all.

 

While both have skills that render them unseen Loki Radial disarm alters the enemy AI  in ways Ivara cannot. Disarm enemy will either rush you or just stand around. Disarmed arsonist enemies also do not use their fireblast, disarmed frost units also will not put up their shield when attacked.

 

Ivara prowl and Cloak arrow limit her movement meaning if she stays in 1 place long enough a grenade will hit her. However Loki has full access to his mobility and Disarm yet again, stops enemies from throwing grenade.

 

 

Also while invisible mobs do not target you, they will target your allies around you, which results in Loki getting hit by AoE. And if Napalms and bombards are such a big problem for Loki and his allies he can simply take away their guns.

 

 

Weapons have always beaten warframe skills interms of scaling into endgame.Also the fact that Loki abilities deal no damage is meaningless as damage doesn't scale, utility does. Which he has in abundance.  He makes a mockery of enemy AI.How enemies react to invisibility itself makes any invisibility skill a cheatcode in this game, combine with Loki to draw an enemy that would fire on him. however Loki has the added benefit of altering enemy AI via disarm and let's not even looking Irradiating disarm.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Buzkyl

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

Loki has a really nice balance.

[m1a3s3k7]

Don't hate me, but all the old frames had or are going to get a rework/rebalanced.

Loki can go invisible for stupid long duration. Able to teleport enemies and allies, also disarming group enemies and making them fight each other with argument.

I know this is bit of touchy subject, but i think should be talked about :/

So does he need to be rebalanced, or just kept OP.

EDIT: Plz Don't Be Salty. If you got suggestions and rework feel free to say it :)

Edit 2: Be respectful and don't be a jackass

  

Can we focus on Loki and stop bringing other frames into this. I started thread to talk about Loki only that ain't being rebalanced. I will say this again; their is no scaling on Loki's disarm, and enemies have no reaction to stealth frame.

And please, don't try to provoke other players. Can't we be nature without being so Salty? -_-

I'll be clear; no rework on Loki needed. The rework needed is to the "stealth" mechanics in game.

Now, I am forced to agree with Dr_Dac. You read my response and merely suggested I leave other frames out of the discussion without leaving any thoughts on the topic or answering my question. Add your opinion, an opinion, so we can get on. Or /thread

[Ibro156]

I'll be clear; no rework on Loki needed. The rework needed is to the "stealth" mechanics in game.

Now, I am forced to agree with Dr_Dac. You read my response and merely suggested I leave other frames out of the discussion without leaving any thoughts on the topic or answering my question. Add your opinion, an opinion, so we can get on. Or /thread

We need to getting around for Loki issue, first. If you want talk about other frames I got no problem, but Loki is the only frame not being looked.

The concept of Loki kit seems fine, yet their is no limit to it. I like playing with Loki myself, but uses the invisibility the most.

If you say Val is powerful, I agree. If you say Excal is powerful, I agree. But Loki has to be looked at, the stealth mechnic is connect to invisibility frames.

[ReapsterPL]

We need to getting around for Loki issue, first. If you want talk about other frames I got no problem, but Loki is the only frame not being looked.

The concept of Loki kit seems fine, yet their is no limit to it. I like playing with Loki myself, but uses the invisibility the most.

If you say Val is powerful, I agree. If you say Excal is powerful, I agree. But Loki has to be looked at, the stealth mechnic is connect to invisibility frames.

Dude WTH are you smoking tell me so i can avoid it. De has been redoing older frames step by step and bringing them up to current state of things.

Loki is the current choice for a utility frame, one that as said before does not rely on power STR so he doesn't need scaling at all, but as many people have stated before he needs proper mods and gear to get the endgame thing going, and that takes a bit of time or a "bit" of cash.

 

Earlier in the thread i saw You comparing loki to nova, you want us to focus on loki alone and yet you compare 2 completly different frames that have completly different uses. This kind of smells like: waaa my nova is less usefull then loki on higher waves  pls nerf change redo so my nova is awsome again ehh. Listen to me very carefully, if you play teamwise on high end content you will find yourself highly relying on energy to keep up the disarm while reviving other people or switching them out of danger. I lost count how many times my loki got downed because the enemy bombard shot someone else yet i got hit, or the napalm splash hit wht it was supposed to hit but i was in range, or the enemy shot at my downed friends carrier for some stupid reason and i got hit, sry but loki is not invincible, what you describe as invisible= invincible happens mostly if yo run solo, on higher levels when you play in a team and you are in the thick of it like you should be, cousing chaos with disarming or meleeing loki is not invincible. He is just the frame that doesn't need scaling and remains good from start till end but to be good you need to invest time or cash or both. as for him making content easier i disagree certain content like spy missions yeah , but others not so much (especially sortie survivals or defences i prefer other frames just for the fun of it). Now take Your time and compare old excalibur to the new one, or how ember looked before the rework and how she works now vs infested, reworks have been making frames stronger one after the other (saryn beeing debatable), wait for other frames to be reworked and leave loki alone, he just stands out becouse no scalling needed issue, when all frames get uptodate and loki still stands out then we can talk about it couse right now it's too early (i know some say it's too late but yeah everyone has their opinion).

Cheers

[(PSN)Draconis1981]

People need to stop throwing around the word "OP" 

 

Loki is probably the most balanced Warframe in the game. 

 

Though I agree that Decoy should be able to withstand longer. I see it as a hologram. Why do holograms die?

 

Switch teleport needs some slight touching up. But Loki is honestly in a good spot.

this. How is invisability and No damage OP? i think people need to stop and think before throwing around terms they obviously don't understand.

Edited January 4, 2016 by (PS4)Draconis1981

[(PSN)Terminus128]

Every time that anybody ask for nerfing a warframe or Gun because it's overpowered, the result is that the item nerfered is rubbish and nobody use that item again (best examples Mesa and Mag). Why to nerfing all? If you don't like it, don't play with it.

[Cloud]

Loki need a change only for his 1st. Don't touch anything else.

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

Where's your argument for him being balanced?

Loki can remain invisible almost permanently, making him undetectable, and therefore, invincible. He can also cause MASSIVE CC, resulting the the player barley needing to lift a finger in order to use him. Shields and health are NOT an argument with Loki, as he again, just won't be seen so won't get hurt anyway.

So where's the balance?

If this is your argument for an "op" Loki, then it should apply to Limbo and his invulnerability using Rift Walk as well as banishing allies to make them invisible as well, and Cataclysm with reduced range, and how it GIVES energy while banished.

 

Also, Wukong and Cloaked Ivara.

[(PSN)Arion-Lightning]

Loki is fine, the way enemies react to invisibility is not.

 

I totally agree with you. Loki is perfect.

 

Enemy's A.I. needs rework.  If they take a shot from nothing (who the hell shot me???). I think they should react in one of these ideas:

 

1- Shooting random direction.

2- 40% or 50% prob. shooting at loki's location and 60% or 50% prob. shooting random direction.

 

Any of these ideas will alert enemies and trigger the alarm. So loki needs to be more mobile around the map because if he gets a shot he dies. (specially on highest lvl missions).

 

You have 2 ways to counteract these reactions:

 

1- Upgraded radial disarm: will confuse enemies. But still you trigger the alarms.

 

2- Silent invisibility: This would be as initial loki's invisibility without enemy's react.  But in this case there is something different.  You will have to sacrify 1 of your other 7 mods if you want to set your upgraded radial disarm. And this change, would break perma-invisible combo because you have to sacrify duration or efficiency and that could break energy syphoon combo (regenerate more energy than invisibility spends). Otherwise, if you don´t go with upgraded radial disarm, enemies will be disarmed but not confused. So you would have to enter fight.

 

Anyway you will have to manage your resources.

 

Just my opinion.

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

He does need to be reworked but the forums wont let that happen. They are too worried about dps frames doing their job.

[crafturtoemc]

No changes needed. Thanks.