Things To Improve The Current State Of Melee

[Cool3303]

With the "recent" changes for Damage Multipliers in Melee we now have an entirely Different System.

Taken from the Patchnotes:

Melee-spam’ combos do half damage.

The attack before the ‘pause’ in a ‘pause’ combo does a stagger or knockdown.

The attack after the ‘pause’ in a ‘pause’ combo does 2x damage.

All other melee combos do 1x damage.

Melee slide attacks stagger or knockdown with melee equipped.

Charge Attacks do 1.5x damage.

 

Simply put: Killing people with Quickmelee, or simply by mashing E is impossible.

Weapons with 3 strikes to a Pause combo are useless

Weapons with heavy animation lock are useless, whereas before you could simply quickmelee to circumvent this (Kogake)

 

After testing all the melee Weapons I got with all stances, I came to the conclusion that only 2 reliably allowed me to get kills in a 1/1 or greater ratio.

#1 Dragon Nikana,Blind Justice,Guiding Light combo.

-This combo catapults you forward with a slash dash that oneshots anything, afterwards you can do 3 quick slashes wich do insane damage too.

-This is probably a bit op due to the huge distance the slash covers.

 

#2 Ankyros Prime/Tekko,Seismic Palm,Sudden Rockfall/Echoing Hands

-When triggering the combo you have to sit trough a insanely long long wait till you get the explosions from Sudden rockfall. These will do 100dmg and knockdown in a pretty wide range.

-When not triggering it you will most certainly get to Echoing Hands, which also does 100+ dmg for the final 2 strikes. Takes forever though.

-Ankyros prime has less hitting power than Tekko, you might need to do the combo twice.

Honorably Mentions go to:

#3 Tipedo,Clashing Forest,Battering Roots

-This combo is extremely hard to execute, and you have to stand still since anything will trigger Resolute Flurry instantly (which sucks btw). If you get it going however you can loop it by continuing to press E. Any Hit or Dash from it deals 70-100dmg

#4 Jat Kittag,Shattering Storm,Smashing Fury or Chrushing Ruin,Shattered Village

-This only works because of Jat Kittys ridiculous dmg and guaranteed knockdown on EVERY hit, but it wont use much the Animation lock is real, speed too slow

-Knockdown? 100+ dmg, Slide 100+dmg, Combo 100 100 100 100 100 100....

#5 Ninkondi,Atlantis Vulcan,Infernal Maelstrom

-Doesnt do Enough dmg, Shacu might. Your Hitbox goes flying with it.

#6 Glaive,Astral Twilight,Falling Star

-Doesnt do quite Enough dmg (it's close), even with full combo. Your Hitbox rises to the Heavens.

 

Combos I could not test:

Four Riders,Vermillion Storm,Gaia's Tragedy,Final Harbinger,Vengeful Revenant,Defiled Snapdragon

 

HOWEVER

These combos are only remotely viable if used against new players.

If you play against people which bulletjump obnoxiously often you cannot do anything.

Also Enguard and Anticipation are really going to screw with you.

and no, melee auto lock on is no magical demon tool that claws you out of the sky, it DOESNT WORK WITH GOOD PINGS (I mean seriously why is everyone so biased towards melee)

The ONLY thing that claws you out of the sky is the Knockdown of Jat Kittag.... literally nothing else and suprise, Hammer stances suck.

 

Things that need to improve for more Melees to be viable:

1.Knockdown and Stagger improvements.

I would suggest, with a "cheap" knockdown weapon, you now only get staggers (sonicor,Jat Kittag for example)

However they should last about as long as a current "real" knockdown

The real knockdown refers to the part during which you cannot shoot, the current knockdown animation has a period of time during which you can shoot but not do any other action

 

Hard to pull off knockdowns however should last longer, simply due to the animation being broken and allowing you to shoot after a certain point.

Enguard and anticipation are the most lazy design choices in the history of WF and should be removed immediately.

 

2 .Slam attack and Slide Attack overhaul.

Slams of weapons that do not have knockdowns have a unforgiveable long Recovery animation

Slams with Knockdown have the same Recovery, however it is even worse since gun users can shoot during the recovery animation.

Some Slides have a awfull animation lock. If the slides are supposed to be "catchup" tools they need to be much quicker.

 

3.Extra speed for some weapons.

I am terribly sorry but I want to get trough an animation lock stance or an stance with 3 hits to a mediocre combo I need MUCH MORE SPEED.Greatswords,Hammers,Scythes and Sparring (Kogake/Obex) weapons suffer insanely from this.

Damage does not matter at all if I do it where I stand.

if a melee combo can be avoided by WALKING backwards it failed, currently this is possible for all but the 2 combos mentioned above

 

4.Preventing Bulletjump spam

Running away, sliding rolling, jumping etc... should be a viable strat to escape melee.

However many people just spam bulletjump and Aimglide, killing the melee players which cannot counter and are helpless against that strat.

I suggest a mod that reduces Mobility by 70% if hit by air melee. This shouldn't be too punishing but prevent experienced players bullying melee players wich are by design landlocked.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Cool3303

[Robm]

The only reason melee sucks is because the damage is not on par with primaries. 

[Phasedragon]

The only reason melee sucks is because the damage is not on par with primaries. 

 

Damage is far above primaries, actually. It's just that it can't hit anyone who knows how to utilize the movement system, but can be used to pick on and farm those who don't. It needs more midair options and ways of getting to the target. I doubt that'll happen, though, because anything implemented would also have to be viable in pve, where gap closing is not necessary. Most other things based on being good in pvp simply won't work in pve and vice versa. Melee is one of those that is meant for cutting down AI hordes, not any sort of aerial combat against another actual player.

[princoded]

Yes I agree melee need some buff. The only valid wep/stance and the most broken combo dragon with guiding light combo.

[Cool3303]

Damage is far above primaries, actually. It's just that it can't hit anyone who knows how to utilize the movement system, but can be used to pick on and farm those who don't. It needs more midair options and ways of getting to the target. I doubt that'll happen, though, because anything implemented would also have to be viable in pve, where gap closing is not necessary. Most other things based on being good in pvp simply won't work in pve and vice versa. Melee is one of those that is meant for cutting down AI hordes, not any sort of aerial combat against another actual player.

Well Air melee and slides are supposed to knockdown players.

Too bad knockdowns last so shortly.

 

What if a mod was released that reduced Mobility by 70% for 3 secs when hit by air melee?

Edited January 3, 2016 by Cool3303

[Phasedragon]

Well Air melee and slides are supposed to knockdown players.

Too bad knockdowns last so shortly.

 

What if a mod was released that reduced Mobility by 70% for 3 secs when hit by air melee?

Still just bandaids. Needs some form of high-mobility dash that can be used when melee is equipped. Dragon nikana blind justice has the right idea, but it's not in the air and it's damage is way too high. Being able to consistently dash at enemies with melee, effectively making yourself the bullet.

[rockscl]

Well Air melee and slides are supposed to knockdown players.

Too bad knockdowns last so shortly.

 

What if a mod was released that reduced Mobility by 70% for 3 secs when hit by air melee?

 

similar things have been suggested since forever but nothing has been added for air melee

[Hairein]

Air melee shouldn't knock down anyone or give them a movement debuff.

 

Video: http://www.twitch.tv/fantagram/v/33270217

Horrible aim and movement because of my FPS but you can still see how far the Air melee can go.

 

It goes insanely far and has a huge hit-box. Adding something like a knockdown would create an even larger rift between players who understand movement and players that don't yet.

I can understand why people think that Air melee is mediocre but when you start using Scythes, Staves and Pole-arms it will make sense.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Hairein

[rockscl]

DE: just so you know, another of the flaws in your air melee system is that its only usable horizontally since air momentum was reduced, trying to kill an osprey with air melee requires above average control

 

Air melee shouldn't knock down anyone or give them a movement debuff.

 

Video: http://www.twitch.tv/fantagram/v/33270217

Horrible aim and movement because of my FPS but you can still see how far the Air melee can go.

 

It goes insanely far and has a huge hit-box. Adding something like a knockdown would create an even larger rift between players who understand movement and players that don't yet.

I can understand why people think that Air melee is mediocre but when you start using Scythes, Staves and Pole-arms it will make sense.

 

im at minute 4 and i still dont see you even trying to hit a parkouring target

 

seen the entire video, you got 1 melee kill at minute 7 by slowing down a guy with the elemental mod, then landing an air strike with the aid of mirage clones, and you actually required to freeze a guy more than 3 times to land the attack

 

the rest of the match it was a scythe+shotgun loadout using the scythe only as a movement tool, valid if you want, but i have seen people actually using it as a damage source along with the shotgun, but nothing to validate the lack of CC in air melee, to begin with, the air melee knockdown is being suggested for sword alone, not for quick melee as seen in your video

Edited January 3, 2016 by rockscl

[Hairein]

We can't assume people are all going to be parkouring, regardless it isn't any different.

You just have to waste more time going to and fro trying to hit them if you're trying to only use your melee weapon.

Which will likely lead to you getting annihilated by weapons that have travel times since you'll end up running into the shots.

[Phasedragon]

Air melee shouldn't knock down anyone or give them a movement debuff.

 

Video: http://www.twitch.tv/fantagram/v/33270217

Horrible aim and movement because of my FPS but you can still see how far the Air melee can go.

 

It goes insanely far and has a huge hit-box. Adding something like a knockdown would create an even larger rift between players who understand movement and players that don't yet.

I can understand why people think that Air melee is mediocre but when you start using Scythes, Staves and Pole-arms it will make sense.

 

Well, yeah, because anku is a damage weapon, not a stun weapon. Not even it's direct hit slam knocksdown, however it does do a lot of damage. Knockdowns for air melee would be applied to other weapons which don't do as much damage.

Edited January 3, 2016 by PhaseShifted

[rockscl]

We can't assume people are all going to be parkouring, regardless it isn't any different.

You just have to waste more time going to and fro trying to hit them if you're trying to only use your melee weapon.

Which will likely lead to you getting annihilated by weapons that have travel times since you'll end up running into the shots.

 

lol, look at your argument

 

"it isnt any different, you just ahve to" - resume - "you will die"

[Hairein]

Okay, do whatever you guys want lol.

You'll just end up ostracizing more new players with the way you want PvP to be structured.

But that's just my opinion.

[Nazrethim]

Changes to melee I would like:

-Better channeling system working in a separate gauge (that recharges when not in use, like a shield, but with a delay to prevent spamming, like shields) with a 'drain per second' instead of 'drain per hit' (This would be nice for low damage fast attacking weapons)

-Better blocking: I would like a mod that reduced almost completely the blocking effectiveness, but caused your block to negate a flat amount of damage (like 15-20) that would barely affect snipers and bows but would turn blocking into a massive FKU vs Automatic weapos and Shotguns.

-Better aerial melee: this could take many forms... (only when melee is equiped, quickmelee can go to hell)

    *Actual aerial combos and uppercuts that propel you (and your target) into the air. No more standing on a crate should grant inmunity for a gunplayer!

    *Archwing auto-lock for Air melee, it's a single attack anyway.

    *Separate buttons for Ground Slam and Aerial melee (R isn't used in melee for Teshin's sake!)

-Staggers, Knockdowns and Elemental procs on Ground Slam only available when you have the melee equiped. (Again, Quickslam and Quickmelee can go to hell)

-Rebalance of weapon/stance damage using pre-U18 DragonNikana/Blind Justice as the example of balance

-Getting the option to turn off Charge attacks or at least place them on the R key to not scr*w up 'hold' combos or the flow of melee combat.

-Remaping combos to eliminate Forward+E and Back+E combos that are not only less powerful but almost unavoidable (forward) or counterintuitive and awful (back)

[Witchydragon]

Still just bandaids. Needs some form of high-mobility dash that can be used when melee is equipped. Dragon nikana blind justice has the right idea, but it's not in the air and it's damage is way too high. Being able to consistently dash at enemies with melee, effectively making yourself the bullet.

Given the current state of charge attacks, I can see them getting improvements. One of them could be the ability to jump while releasing a charge attack to do a Blade Symphony style aerial move. Similar to air melee, but with more range and lasting longer. 

 

    *Archwing auto-lock for Air melee, it's a single attack anyway.

I think given that air melee can be aimed, this doesn't need to happen. 

[Nighttide77]

I think given that air melee can be aimed, this doesn't need to happen.

Please feel free to experiment and post your results.

[_BUSHIDO_]

Changes to melee I would like:

-Better channeling system working in a separate gauge (that recharges when not in use, like a shield, but with a delay to prevent spamming, like shields) with a 'drain per second' instead of 'drain per hit' (This would be nice for low damage fast attacking weapons)

-Better blocking: I would like a mod that reduced almost completely the blocking effectiveness, but caused your block to negate a flat amount of damage (like 15-20) that would barely affect snipers and bows but would turn blocking into a massive FKU vs Automatic weapos and Shotguns.

-Better aerial melee: this could take many forms... (only when melee is equiped, quickmelee can go to hell)

*Actual aerial combos and uppercuts that propel you (and your target) into the air. No more standing on a crate should grant inmunity for a gunplayer!

*Archwing auto-lock for Air melee, it's a single attack anyway.

*Separate buttons for Ground Slam and Aerial melee (R isn't used in melee for Teshin's sake!)

-Staggers, Knockdowns and Elemental procs on Ground Slam only available when you have the melee equiped. (Again, Quickslam and Quickmelee can go to hell)

-Rebalance of weapon/stance damage using pre-U18 DragonNikana/Blind Justice as the example of balance

-Getting the option to turn off Charge attacks or at least place them on the R key to not scr*w up 'hold' combos or the flow of melee combat.

-Remaping combos to eliminate Forward+E and Back+E combos that are not only less powerful but almost unavoidable (forward) or counterintuitive and awful (back)

I think this will improve a Lot the melee system.

I also suggest:

- meele combos should be designed to Cover distance, You shouldn't be a sitting duck while trying to kill someone. It will be nice having some sort of mobility while using your combo, most of the time you get killed by someone aimgliding two metres away in front of you.

- charge attacks should have some sort of utility. Now they aren't useless, but even worst due to the fact they can screw your combo. They should have a gap closer like guiding Light, you charge your sword And then you go straight forward At The speed of Light. Maybe a stun will be good too, just to block your opponent And give you some time to show your combo.

Melee players should be a treath in close quarter combat, unless you are using a shotgun. Now they are more like cheap kills for people who know how to play properly.

[Nazrethim]

I think this will improve a Lot the melee system.

I also suggest:

- meele combos should be designed to Cover distance, You shouldn't be a sitting duck while trying to kill someone. It will be nice having some sort of mobility while using your combo, most of the time you get killed by someone aimgliding two metres away in front of you.

- charge attacks should have some sort of utility. Now they aren't useless, but even worst due to the fact they can screw your combo. They should have a gap closer like guiding Light, you charge your sword And then you go straight forward At The speed of Light. Maybe a stun will be good too, just to block your opponent And give you some time to show your combo.

Melee players should be a treath in close quarter combat, unless you are using a shotgun. Now they are more like cheap kills for people who know how to play properly.

Well... the aerial rebalance could improve that part vs aimgliding gunplayers. Bulletjump+aimglide? well you roll below them>Uppercut combo to propel you in the air>aerial combo to kill them (aerial combo should lock you both in position for 2-3s allowing you to kill him/her or he could kill you by unleashing gunfire while you combo him/her). I like that "charge attacks are gap closers", at least it gives them some utility and it's better than another suggestion I've seen about making charge attacks oneshot anything caught.

[Forizenajay]

I'm a melee only player and I'll tell you right now that 

 

1. DPS is actually lower on melee weapons than most guns. If, side by side, you are shooting someone in the body vs someone meleeing you, the ONLY time melee comes out ahead is if you are using a multi-hit OR pause combo. Melee has slightly MORE DPS when channeling but that costs energy per attack. DPS changes when you are on a "rampage" however since you get massive attack speed.

 

2. I win about 95% of my matches. The only thing I lose against is GOOD PVP PLAYERS. The fact that you can out mobility anyone with an elemental mod and keep shooting means you can stay off the ground... 99% of the time. People who DON'T do this in PVP shouldn't be considered top tier. Melee is for pwning people who don't consistently parkour.

 

3. Stance combos put you in animation lock, which is slower than sprinting. Technically someone can sprint out of your combos, let alone a single bullet jump. Stance combos should either make it so you are sticking to your opponent IF AIMING properly AFTER successfully gap closing. 

 

4. Air melee is rare/doesn't exist. We should have archwing/martial magnetism air melee if the following are fulfilled:  You are aiming just about where the enemy is | You are close to the enemy so the attack is timed | You are both airborne.  This fulfills what air melee needs in order to reliable hit someone while still staying at an exposed range. BONUS: If you could match the momentum/direction your target is going that sticking power would be neat.

 

5. Blocking needs to be changed. The damage reduction is good but you can't charge an enemy while blocking very reliably at all. I think blocking should override any stance animation and we should have increased sprint speed under the 'Sword Alone' mod, maybe sprint faster while blocking while aiming at the target shooting you. Channeled blocking is insanely powerful but is NEVER worth it since it costs so much energy. If we have animation cancelling via blocking, i can think of a thousand scenarios where I would have been the victor, but it sucks not being able to block just because you accidentally swung your melee and missed. 

 

6. Channeling. makes your weapon insanely powerful. But by doing so you forfeit using mobility mods, and most likely your 3 and 4 powers, even your 2. I think Follow Through is a good start but maybe have one for melee that adds more energy. Gun users don't have any penalty of this despite having actual higher DPS than melee. 

 

To conclude,  I don't think melee needs a damage buff. I think stance combos need to be reliable and intuitive according to the situation. I think air combat needs to be more reliable, blocking an actual situational option, better energy options/mobility options to be on par with elemental mod users which we can't use. 

 

On stances, just about any pause combo does a ton of damage. It's impossible to hit with heavy weapons though. I use the Glaive with the Astral Twilight Stance, and the Dragon Nikana with the Tranquil Cleave stance and have found much success. Blocking is useless, and so is air melee, so I rely on picking up energy, parkouring to my target, then I do a slide attack for stagger and follow up with a pause combo. That's literally all I do. That's all I CAN do.

 

I think Pause Combos doing more damage was a brilliant step. A stagger for a single Slide Attack was also good so you can reliably follow up with a combo. I think Right Click combos should grant blocking properties while pulling them off, and maybe hold combos should be the one with sticking power? not sure.