Removal Of Invulnerability From Ultimates

[Civilisation]

On the removal of invulnerability from ultimates, it wasn't unexpected considering DE's stance on invulnerability in general (Hint:  Iron Skin). It's meant to stop squishy casters from rushing fearlessly into hordes of enemies knowing they can press a button, turn invincible, and nuke every enemy around them while regenerating shields. Unfortunately, the mechanics of ultimates  themselves - a rooted, long cast time, self-centred nuke - conflict with Warframe's intention of being fast paced and fluid in its gameplay. Cover is ineffective considering you'd ideally want to be in the middle of the horde when casting your ultimate. Ultimates in general just don't mix well with the game's intended direction and DE's stance on invulnerability - particularly as Warframe doesn't provide sufficient mechanics to defend yourself and use ultimates effectively without invulnerability.

 

The most important thing to understand is that ultimates are no longer a panic button. If you're surrounded, you have to gauge whether you can capture enough enemies within the area of effect to avoid dying while you cast or escape and re-engage. Even potential buffs like stability and damage reduction aren't going to give you panic button functionality. Whether this is a good change or not is debateable, but with any effective form of invulnerability unlikely to return, adapting this into your play style is necessary.

As always, this is just my opinion. I only ask you keep all critique and comments civil.

[Amistyrja]

That's OK. But Blessing's casting animation is still very long.

[fatpig84]

Last check Trinity still has hers.

 

But really removal of invuln on Rhino was incredibly stupid though.

He is the designated tank, but there are tanks that last much longer than him now.

[Amistyrja]

Last check Trinity still has hers.

Sadly she doesn't, which is why I actually have to use Link now.

[Xoxile]

Last check Trinity still has hers.

 

But really removal of invuln on Rhino was incredibly stupid though.

He is the designated tank, but there are tanks that last much longer than him now.

There's other ways of tanking other than fearlessly pressing a single button over and over.

[fatpig84]

There's other ways of tanking other than fearlessly pressing a single button over and over.

 

Which is what Ash is doing with smoke or trinity with link right ?

Ash and loki while invisible deal bonus melee damage too, a quick invulnerability AND escape. 

 

Iron Skin does not have such an ability and 800 dmg is quickly negated at high levels of play.

Dropping iron skin duration to 8 seconds but able to deflect off 4000 damage and costing 75 energy seems more worth it.

 

You can still use it when in a bind, but you cannot just mindlessly spam it anymore.

Edited June 5, 2013 by fatpig84

[winterau]

There's other ways of tanking other than fearlessly pressing a single button over and over.

 

Please describe them. If it involves running away, that is not tanking.

[Waagabondh]

Last check Trinity still has hers.

 

But really removal of invuln on Rhino was incredibly stupid though.

He is the designated tank, but there are tanks that last much longer than him now.

 

It was not stupid. It was overpowered as it was.

I played Rhino, and he was overpowered. Final.

Iron skin now draws aggro, as it should, and reduce damage.

 

Sure Ember can tank ancients better, trinity can take a ton of damage but both lacks the armor and shields to consistently take less damage.

Iron skin is still superb, its just Rhinos other abilities, apart from Rhino charge that is sub par.

 

Invulnerabilities just destroyed the game, completely. It was made far too easy.

I played Rhino and already at rank 20 back then, I was rather new, I cleared pluto. I took out the last boss in Pluto before I was rank 30 with Rhino.

 

Thats not possible anymore.

I tried going through pluto with other frames and its deadly hard.

As it should be.

 

The game play should be hard, it should not be casual. There are plenty of low level planets for casual play. But even casual players want very tough opponents.

And with the invulnerabilities going on, Warframe wasnt hard enough, it still is not. They should increase the difficulty a notch all over the boards, including pluto and the void.

 

I had a fun run yesterday where we had to flee several time and regroup cause of crazy moas on Pluto giving us a night mare time.

Our new frames is not 30, they are mid 20s and with mid 20s weapons. It was tense and fun, and nearly lost it.

We kept up cause the mods that had dropped was rare for us and was what we had been looking for, all revives was out, and it was a bare thread we made it.

Was among the more fun moments I had in warframe. As honestly, what makes warframe boring, is that its content is just too easy for experienced players.

[fatpig84]

I am not proposing a return of the glory days of IS.

I am proposing that Iron Skin has a drop in duration by half and able to deflect 5 times more damage that the current figures.

If it is too high, tone it down to 2k !

 

Because as it stands 800 damage negation does not last very long in higher level content while superbly useful at lower levels.

Either make it flat damage negation or us alternatives.

 

Like iron skin reduces all incoming damage by 75%, provokes all incoming enemies to attack him and let Rhino get a 35% life steal with melee attacks during that duration (aka 1000 damage dealt by him, he is healed 350).

Edited June 5, 2013 by fatpig84

[Xoxile]

Which is what Ash is doing with smoke or trinity with link right ?

Ash and loki while invisible deal bonus melee damage too, a quick invulnerability AND escape. 

 

Iron Skin does not have such an ability and 800 dmg is quickly negated at high levels of play.

Dropping iron skin duration to 8 seconds but able to deflect off 4000 damage and costing 75 energy seems more worth it.

 

You can still use it when in a bind, but you cannot just mindlessly spam it anymore.

 

 You miss understand me. I am not presenting Rhino hate. I think all invulnerability should be removed. People keep asking for a challenge in this game, but as long as there is some way of reliably taking no damage for extended periods of time there will never be a challenge. I'm not saying that's the only reason there is no challenge to the game. Other things need to be changed/added, but as long as there is invulnerability such as link energy vampire combo no matter how difficult you make the content the challenge can be brushed aside and laughed at as people stand in the center of danger taking every bullet.

Please describe them. If it involves running away, that is not tanking.

The 80% damage reduction was perfect in my mind. Yes it needed knock resistance, and such but the reason that was removed is because it was a side effect of invulnerability. Just hard code that in along side 80% damage reduction, then either add some kind of health regen to iron skin, or replace radial blast with a self heal.

[Sirabot]

Not questioning anyone's intelligence here but...  Why does it matter what the duration is on a skill that has a damage cap? Actually I lied. I'm Questioning it all.

[Waagabondh]

Since we discuss Rhino.

Lets not forget he does have 100 armor, and get a ton out of Steel Fibre, a mod you SHOULD have on Rhino.

This alone let him take ALOT less damage. Couple it in with heavy shields and a high hp pool and thats your tank right there.

Even without Iron skin he takes far less damage then all but 1 other frame, Frost.

 

That alone should be enough.

 

Iron Skin earlier was just stupid, nothing but pure stupid.

It also lasted 10 full seconds!!!!!

Add in a flow, which I used, and he could without picking up any blues, stand immune to anything for nearly one minute.

Thats not even $&*&*#(%&, its beyond $&*&*#(%&.

 

Rhino with 80% damage reduction is still border line too strong.

His other abilities needs to be changed however.

 

This game should not be easy.

Just cause you are a tank does not mean you can stand in a MOA laser beam and take it.

If you could, the game would be broken.

You got dodge for a reason, and you can hide, for a reason.

Use it.

[Amistyrja]

Since we discuss Rhino.

Lets not forget he does have 100 armor, and get a ton out of Steel Fibre, a mod you SHOULD have on Rhino.

This alone let him take ALOT less damage. Couple it in with heavy shields and a high hp pool and thats your tank right there.

Even without Iron skin he takes far less damage then all but 1 other frame, Frost.

Just cause you are a tank does not mean you can stand in a MOA laser beam and take it.

If you could, the game would be broken.

You got dodge for a reason, and you can hide, for a reason.

Use it.

Um he has 150 armour actually, and yes that's good.

High hp pool isn't right though. Only Mag and Loki have lower hp than him. In fact, Saryn and Ash have more health than him.

Also don't forget his low sprint speed.

If one couldn't stand in a MOA laser beam and take it, he's not really much of a tank.

And isn't the game already somewhat broken?

He can dodge, he can hide, but he's slow.

And Iron Skin makes all enemies fire at him.

???????

Edited June 5, 2013 by Amistyrja

[fatpig84]

Fact still remains, if you are tanking, you are static and in their face, because you do not want the damage to spill over and hit your softer team mates or softer targets. IS attracts aggro, you are slow, how long does the 800 damage shielding last in high end games ?

Not very long at all.

 

In comparison, Frost Globe effectively negates any sort of ranged fire or melee since melee enemies are slowed to a crawl when inside the dome and ranged attacks don't go through that globe. And guess what ? Inside the globe nearly your entire team benefits from it.

It is like a huge invulnerability + area denial + de-buff skill rolled into one and it last 30 seconds, Iron skin doesn't even compare remotely to the effectiveness of that. That's why on high level defense games, there is usually a frost or trinity, ember or nyx (she doesn't tank but she makes the enemy tank each other), the usual suspects.

 

If Rhino IS can do the even a fraction as above, IE, keep all enemy aggro on him, but not flat lining straight away.

He would be used a lot more.

Edited June 5, 2013 by fatpig84

[PaperAlien]

He is the designated tank, but there are tanks that last much longer than him now.

Oh no, I can't tank because I actually take damage now...

 

Which is what Ash is doing with smoke or trinity with link right ?

Ash and loki while invisible deal bonus melee damage too, a quick invulnerability AND escape.

No one said they were fine, they're probably next up. Also, Ash and Loki can be CC'd in cloak, and with Ash you probably won't even realise it because you can't see him. The 800 damage cap mechanic on IS is indeed stupid. The DR system that people complained into submission was way better than this.

 

I think ults would work a lot better tactically if most of them fired in a cone/line in front of the player, so their incentive isn't to get surrounded as hard as possible, but still to catch as many enemies in the blast as possible. Obviously, some skills (Rhino Stomp etc) should remain as a radial effect.

[Otakuwolf]

The game play should be hard, it should not be casual. There are plenty of low level planets for casual play. But even casual players want very tough opponents.

And with the invulnerabilities going on, Warframe wasnt hard enough, it still is not. They should increase the difficulty a notch all over the boards, including pluto and the void.

 

That sums up a selfish elitist player.

Dude, really, just because you want more challenging conditions it doesen't mean that you have to drag other players too.

Do you think IS was OP ? Do you think IS was stupid ? Unfair to use ?

 

THEN JUST DON'T USE IT, IS NOT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING SO SIMPLE !

 

Ruining a frame just because skill X is bad is plain silly and imo the worst choice, because other people who had lot of fun with it now is paying for such elitist and eghoist players like the one above.

 

Dear DE, if a few people complain like "*Heavy weapon guy's cry* IRON SKIN IS OHPEEEE IS NOOOOB IS CHEEEAP TOOO EASYYYY" but you see most of your players having fun like that... can't you just say "then don't use it ?" to the whiny ones instead of making everyone pay because of them ?

And besides, if it's a "spammable" skill there are better ways to make it lesser spammable, like do you think i can spam the Frost snoglobe anytime i want ? NO ! Because it costs 75 energy ! Couldn't you do the same for Rhino's IS then ? Just making it more expensive energy-wise and leave it be (even because for what i understand the "other" skills of Rhino aren't that powerful compared to it) ?

[Xoxile]

That sums up a selfish elitist player.

Dude, really, just because you want more challenging conditions it doesen't mean that you have to drag other players too.

Do you think IS was OP ? Do you think IS was stupid ? Unfair to use ?

 

THEN JUST DON'T USE IT, IS NOT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING SO SIMPLE !

 

Ruining a frame just because skill X is bad is plain silly and imo the worst choice, because other people who had lot of fun with it now is paying for such elitist and eghoist players like the one above.

 

Dear DE, if a few people complain like "*Heavy weapon guy's cry* IRON SKIN IS OHPEEEE IS NOOOOB IS CHEEEAP TOOO EASYYYY" but you see most of your players having fun like that... can't you just say "then don't use it ?" to the whiny ones instead of making everyone pay because of them ?

And besides, if it's a "spammable" skill there are better ways to make it lesser spammable, like do you think i can spam the Frost snoglobe anytime i want ? NO ! Because it costs 75 energy ! Couldn't you do the same for Rhino's IS then ? Just making it more expensive energy-wise and leave it be (even because for what i understand the "other" skills of Rhino aren't that powerful compared to it) ?

You could say don't use that skill. But then the skilless players would be able to fly through the content leaving the people who choose the challenge themselves in the dust. When that happens the people who got to the end of the content first are labeled as "good players".

And as for slow globe vs iron skin. With iron skin you can run all over the place to pick up energy orbs so you can sustain it much longer. With snow globe you have to leave the sanctuary to pick up orbs.

[UncommonUnicorn]

S what would happen if the player gets killed while casting?

Does the ability fail?

Does the ability still trigger?

[Otakuwolf]

You could say don't use that skill. But then the skilless players would be able to fly through the content leaving the people who choose the challenge themselves in the dust. When that happens the people who got to the end of the content first are labeled as "good players".

And as for slow globe vs iron skin. With iron skin you can run all over the place to pick up energy orbs so you can sustain it much longer. With snow globe you have to leave the sanctuary to pick up orbs.

 

Then just gather a your own group/clan/whatever of "skilled" players, make up your own rules, and play with those without bothering other people who don't want to.

 

Videogames aren't about Skill, are about fun, if your only way of having fun is the challenge you won't ever be satisfyed because once you have achieved a challenge you'll look for another one, and another one, and another one until you'll become a "tourney%&^" (unless you're one already) and play "no items, fox only, final destination" style, maybe trying to force your philosophy down the throat of those who don't agreee with it and destroying the fun of others just because you wanted a challenge.

 

Do you want a challenge that requires some real skill ? Then play some sport, those have all the challenge you want and you need skill to be good.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Otakuwolf

[Estred]

My cents on Rhino would be if it was to be kept at full invulnerability. The ability lasts for oh say 12 seconds, but only the first 6 seconds are invulnerable. After that it's damage absorbed up to 800-1600 (whatever number based on target levels of play). Iron Skin can only be activated once every 15 seconds. This forces Rhino players to actually take cover for short amounts between skins thus discouraging the "i'm a god" type playing he had before when you should chain-Iron Skin. Though keep in mind I have not played Rhino, I speak from observation.

[WARLOCKE]

There's other ways of tanking other than fearlessly pressing a single button over and over.

 

Enlighten us. Please do. thousands of players likely better than you want to know.

 

Never mind, just read a few more of your posts. Pro-gamer bro! Want to join the MLG with me?

Edited June 6, 2013 by WARLOCKE

[Xoxile]

Enlighten us. Please do. thousands of players likely better than you want to know.

 

Never mind, just read a few more of your posts. Pro-gamer bro! Want to join the MLG with me?

Naw bro. I'm good. Thanks tho.

[Frendh]

There's other ways of tanking other than fearlessly pressing a single button over and over.

Please instruct me how to efficiently _tank_ with Rhino.

[LasersGoPewPew]

if IS drew agro the invulnerability would be justified, if he moved even slower while it was in effect the invulnerability would've been justified, not everything has to be a straight win-win buff, there could have been serious downsides for having the invulnerability (like moving SLOWER as you harden your skin which makes the armor HEAVIER) that's my two cents on the iron skin change comparing pre patch to now.