Cheese Needs To Be Removed From The Game.

[Inmemoratus]

alright, lets get some numbers out. A long wave on draco takes about 8 minutes. Each long wave grants about 1.2k kills for the meta comp (everyone brings unranked weapons, with 2 ranked frames minimum, with 2 unranked frames max)

 

With a pug round, everyone caps everything and the wave ends in about 5 minutes, if it doesn't end in 5 minutes, it usually means people arent killing fast enough. The best I have seen pub rounds do is about 400 total kills per 5 mins (with ranked frames, ranked weapons, and a few unranked stuff in between)

 

 Metacomp

1.2k/8min = 150 kills per minute (plus the added benefit of having 3 unranked items.)

Pug comp

400/5min = 80 kills per minute (holding extra ranked weapons, reduced affinity gain by about 33 percent per ranked weapon.)

 

With metacomp you level 3 items so you get the full 150kills exp

 

With pug comp, you bring a primary, so your exp is reduced by 33%, so the value you get is 80*.66= 52kills exp gain

 

So with metacomp, you gain effectively 3x more exp, more if you have a terrible matchmade comp that doesn't kill things fast enough, which is extremely common.

 

 

I don't need to tell you more kills = more affinity, you should know that by now.

 

There is one primary benefit of pub draco, running in with a synoid simulor "can" be faster than leeching for warframe EXP. Also most premade draco comps don't allow unranked frames, so pub draco is for that. You asked for numbers, there it is. There is nothing more I can do, unless you can find a better numbers argument.

 

Compared to what I get it looks like maybe twice as much exp but takes 60% longer, so it seems pretty marginal and you can't actually use it to rank warframes. I'll have to verify the numbers on pub later when I have time though.

 

Also, I can bring up to 2 weapons + a warframe all from unranked. My syndicate weapon carries all of it.

[dmirtygorachyov]

Compared to what I get it looks like maybe twice as much exp but takes 60% longer, so it seems pretty marginal and you can't actually use it to rank warframes. I'll have to verify the numbers on pub later when I have time though.

 

Also, I can bring up to 2 weapons + a warframe all from unranked. My syndicate weapon carries all of it.

 

Dont forget to bring pictures for the family.

 

Btw if you kill things with your primary your secondaries and melee doesn't get any exp at all. Just your frame,  and your primary.

Also you are literally saying no, numbers are incorrect, without any numbers of your own.

 

 

I'm still almost convinced posts like this one are made by people who have no idea what "meta" means.

 

 

This whole "everything is viable" mentality that I see in warframe will end eventually, once actual end game content arrives. Until then, this will be the majority. 

Edited January 15, 2016 by dmirtygorachyov

[Faustus]

If DE manages to rework otherframes into something that is comparable to trinity without reworking the energy system, i'll delete my warframe account. I don't think anything can beat infinite spells and infinite health.

 Man, why are you waiting? Every response you make here only shows that you only worry about your opinion about what the meta is, and how this game need you to make it "better", you bash against is NEEEDEEED, but you know, there is not, several times my clan finished raids with only 5 frames, and no Trinity. If you can't play using the same things that others, then Warframe, his core the fun custom part,is not for you.

PS Sorry for my english...

[nonscience]

You choose your modding/team/weapons. That kind of situations is entirely your fault.

 

[dmirtygorachyov]

 Man, why are you waiting? Every response you make here only shows that you only worry about your opinion about what the meta is, and how this game need you to make it "better", you bash against is NEEEDEEED, but you know, there is not, several times my clan finished raids with only 5 frames, and no Trinity. If you can't play using the same things that others, then Warframe, his core the fun custom part,is not for you.

PS Sorry for my english...

 

Your clan isn't representative of what the metagame is. If you want to spend 100k credits on energy restores, fine, not everyone is going to do that just to be edgy because they can easily pick trinity

 

 

I'm still almost convinced posts like this one are made by people who have no idea what "meta" means.

 

 

^

Edited January 15, 2016 by dmirtygorachyov

[Inmemoratus]

Your clan isn't representative of what the metagame is. If you want to spend 100k credits on energy restores, fine, not everyone is going to do that just to be edgy because they can easily pick trinity

Then your idea is nerf trinity so everyone has to spend 100k credits on energy restores. This improves the situation, how?

 

How about address the flawed game mode that requires such ludicrous amounts of energy?

Edited January 15, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Inmemoratus]

This whole "everything is viable" mentality that I see in warframe will end eventually, once actual end game content arrives. Until then, this will be the majority. 

DE would never do something so stupid. They could add content hard enough to expose once and for all the hilarious imbalance between different frames, and thus force themselves to actually balance them... or they could just, not? And people would continue playing whichever frames they feel like and everyone...errr... most people would be happy.

[dmirtygorachyov]

DE would never do something so stupid. They could add content hard enough to expose once and for all the hilarious imbalance between different frames, and thus force themselves to actually balance them... or they could just, not? And people would continue playing whichever frames they feel like and everyone...errr... most people would be happy.

 

Still waiting on your pub draco run.

[Chipputer]

Then your idea is nerf trinity so everyone has to spend 100k credits on energy restores. This improves the situation, how?

 

How about address the flawed game mode that requires such ludicrous amounts of energy?

I like how you assume "nerf Trinity" comes with absolutely no other changes whatsoever.

[Inmemoratus]

I like how you assume "nerf Trinity" comes with absolutely no other changes whatsoever.

Let's see a comprehensive list of changes.

 

Actually no, I'm not interested and I don't think anyone else is besides bitter tryhards who have ruined the game for themselves.

[Chipputer]

Let's see a comprehensive list of changes.

 

Actually no, I'm not interested and I don't think anyone else is besides bitter tryhards who have ruined the game for themselves.

Then you aren't interested in a discussion and are only here to try and make "bitter tryhards" mad. In other words, your input is no longer necessary.

[Inmemoratus]

Then you aren't interested in a discussion and are only here to try and make "bitter tryhards" mad. In other words, your input is no longer necessary.

This entire thread isn't necessary.

[dmirtygorachyov]

Compared to what I get it looks like maybe twice as much exp but takes 60% longer, so it seems pretty marginal and you can't actually use it to rank warframes. I'll have to verify the numbers on pub later when I have time though.

 

This entire thread isn't necessary.

 

I think someones draco run didn't go so well, may I recommend a slice of R.J.Trin Cheese?. Anyway I'm still interested in talking about cheese if anyone wants to, its the only thing that bothers me about this game atm. Cheese and difficulty.

Edited January 15, 2016 by dmirtygorachyov

[Inmemoratus]

I think someones draco run didn't go so well, may I recommend a slice of R.J.Trin Cheese?. Anyway I'm still interested in talking about cheese if anyone wants to, its the only thing that bothers me about this game atm. Cheese and difficulty.

I haven't even been on WF this morning lol

[dmirtygorachyov]

I haven't even been on WF this morning lol

Judging from the comments you made about draco mechanics, it sounds you haven't been on Warframe at all.

Edited January 15, 2016 by dmirtygorachyov

[(PSN)maelstromm15]

Relevant. :)

[fakeBOSHI]

Judging from the comments you made about draco mechanics, it sounds you haven't been on Warframe at all.

 

I feel an obligatory: oOOOoooOOOoooo

 

but you know, he'll just dodge.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

 

I'll just leave this here

[DSMatticus]

I love how the response to "the meta is boring" is always "you don't have to play that way" (with a side of "are you sure? I mean, you have numbers, and it seems really obvious, but it would be really convenient if I just chose not to believe you, so I'm going to do that") and never "how can we make it fun?"

 

Hey, geniuses, we aren't talking about this because we are trying to recruit you into playing the game a specific way. I don't care how you play the game. I actually do just pub Draco, because the dedicated farm setup is mindnumbing and if I played that way I would burnout. But want to know something funny? I've dropped into a pub Draco and gotten 3/4ths of the meta team. I have no idea why people like that don't just pick up a 4th in recruiting. I don't know why if they're only going to go with 3 they don't just set it to private. But I have seriously dropped into a pub Draco and had people yell at me for ruining their farm by trying to play the game normally. More than once. Do you have any idea how hard it can be to find a "hey, let's just play the game" T3S/T4S in recruiting? Everyone always wants to run some stupid camp strategy where we all sit in one place for 20-40 minutes spamming the same button over and over.

 

That is what the current meta does to the game. That is why the meta way to play the game - the most rewarding way to play the game - should be engaging and entertaining. That's why we need to address the issues that encourage people to turn Warframe into a spamfest (by giving them better rewards per unit/time when they spamfest than they don't). It's called a perverse incentive - it's an incentive leading people to something they shouldn't be doing, because it isn't fun and it will burn them out and drive them away from the game. But before they burn out, they're still going to be there making it difficult for everyone else to play the game normally.

 

If you have a problem with the way people are playing the game, ask why people are playing the game that way, then ask what can be done to change that.

[Gurpgork]

I love how the response to "the meta is boring" is always "you don't have to play that way" (with a side of "are you sure? I mean, you have numbers, and it seems really obvious, but it would be really convenient if I just chose not to believe you, so I'm going to do that") and never "how can we make it fun?"

 

Hey, geniuses, we aren't talking about this because we are trying to recruit you into playing the game a specific way. I don't care how you play the game. I actually do just pub Draco, because the dedicated farm setup is mindnumbing and if I played that way I would burnout. But want to know something funny? I've dropped into a pub Draco and gotten 3/4ths of the meta team. I have no idea why people like that don't just pick up a 4th in recruiting. I don't know why if they're only going to go with 3 they don't just set it to private. But I have seriously dropped into a pub Draco and had people yell at me for ruining their farm by trying to play the game normally. More than once. Do you have any idea how hard it can be to find a "hey, let's just play the game" T3S/T4S in recruiting? Everyone always wants to run some stupid camp strategy where we all sit in one place for 20-40 minutes spamming the same button over and over.

 

That is what the current meta does to the game. That is why the meta way to play the game - the most rewarding way to play the game - should be engaging and entertaining. That's why we need to address the issues that encourage people to turn Warframe into a spamfest (by giving them better rewards per unit/time when they spamfest than they don't). It's called a perverse incentive - it's an incentive leading people to something they shouldn't be doing, because it isn't fun and it will burn them out and drive them away from the game. But before they burn out, they're still going to be there making it difficult for everyone else to play the game normally.

 

If you have a problem with the way people are playing the game, ask why people are playing the game that way, then ask what can be done to change that.

This is very well put.

[Chipputer]

If you have a problem with the way people are playing the game, ask why people are playing the game that way, then ask what can be done to change that.

I love you. Marry me. Right now.

[Inmemoratus]

But I have seriously dropped into a pub Draco and had people yell at me for ruining their farm by trying to play the game normally. More than once. Do you have any idea how hard it can be to find a "hey, let's just play the game" T3S/T4S in recruiting? Everyone always wants to run some stupid camp strategy where we all sit in one place for 20-40 minutes spamming the same button over and over.

 

I have yet to experience this.

 

Ok once I got a guy making a T4S team and he said "We're going 40 min, and I'm going trinity." ... and that was all. He didn't care which frames we went. Honestly, whenever I join void or orokin derelict pugs I expect to be told what to play. But nobody ever tells me what to play.

 

IDK man. Exactly how often do you feel forced into the meta when you want to do something else?

[Chipputer]

IDK man. Exactly how often do you feel forced into the meta when you want to do something else?

Exactly zero times.

 

And not a single person has ever said, in this thread, that they are being forced into the meta.

 

You are reading an entirely different thread from the rest of us.

[Inmemoratus]

Exactly zero times.

 

And not a single person has ever said, in this thread, that they are being forced into the meta.

 

You are reading an entirely different thread from the rest of us.

I believe the guy I responded to just mentioned a situation where people got mad at him (in a pub) for playing draco the intended way.

 

While I could be wrong about that, I'd suggest you don't speak for other people. It's rude.

[DelialFallen]

I love how the response to "the meta is boring" is always "you don't have to play that way" (with a side of "are you sure? I mean, you have numbers, and it seems really obvious, but it would be really convenient if I just chose not to believe you, so I'm going to do that") and never "how can we make it fun?"

 

-snip-

 

If you have a problem with the way people are playing the game, ask why people are playing the game that way, then ask what can be done to change that.

 

 

It's just a tiny bit disingenuous to say the game is too easy when you use the best of everything, and use the best group composition to breeze through the game. Anyone can decide to sewer farm Survivals and numb their mind of it for an hour or two.  It's easy, gets the best rewards in the best time frame with the least effort.  To claim the game is boring or two easy because one chooses to do so isn't painting a portrait of the game so much as affirming the meta is a bore.

 

That's just on example.

 

The game is, for the most part, about hoarding loot.  That is an unfortunate fact but it is what it is.  The method and pace one chooses to procure the loot is what makes it a game.  Everyone is free to change it up, go solo, attempt challenges, play with friends, join a slower clan or group.  If that is not something they wish to do, then that is their choice as well.

 

The challenges of the game can be solved without very much thought or difficulty, that is a truth.  From a design standpoint, DE is addressing the lack of challenge in a way they find economically sound.  If they nerf too many things, too often, people will begin to question their purchases.  This, of course, is a problematic inherent to those who choose to pay for things in the game: DE's patrons, as it were.

 

From the F2P perspective, and for those players who do not regularly spend money on the game, the stance is much simpler: change the things that 'break' the game.  But when you have people who, say, bought the Trinity Prime Access, the whole of it, and they paid $150 for it, reading about people demanding negative changes that devalues their purchase sours up the experience and may make them less likely to make a likewise purchase again.

 

Balancing may be easier to address in games that do not have Warframe's design or its F2P model.  But here, resistance to change may be explained and understood better if one sees it as a purposeful devaluation of goods after the purchase, which is a very sh!tty thing.  I know that I, for one, have become much more wary of making purchases in Warframe and have switched to playing Trade to accumulate Platinum as a direct result of nerfs either on gear I had acquired with Platinum I had purchased (not at a discount), or from Bundles (Gunslinger, Nova PA) or even individual items (Diriga).

 

These are some of the things DE has to keep in mind when considering what to change and how they choose to implement that change.

Edited January 15, 2016 by DelialFallen