Natural Talent

[(XBOX)DRKing7287]

There is. Neither of Drift modes can provide a 50% multiplicative DPS boost. NT can.

No it can't. It increases cast speed so it works like reload speed mods. The 50% increase only reduces cast time by 33%.

[ashrah]

natural talent should be included cz its essencial for many frames

[ShortCat]

It would be 50%. 33.3% is decrease in cast animation time, which results in 50% more casts in the same amount of time.

Indeed, please stop. Or you would say, that increasing reload speed on, say, Vectis won't affect its DPS?

I understand your point of view, but don't forget it is a game world, with a lot of limitations and a lot of mechanics boil down to a few major numbers like damage or EHP. Natural Talent or reload mods increase theoretical DPS, because they reduce downtime, hell, even Ammo Drum inceases DPS under this circumstances.

But this is only a side effect of their actual purpose, which is to support handling of a tool, aaand because a game is a simple universe (read above) you will influence the major numbers.

 

With your attitude you really should hate Rush as well. Rush allows every Frame to move faster and come faster into effecive combat range, I especially mention Valkyr here.

 

Now, how can we separate Utilitymods from Powermods? Simple. At a given time you have a set amount of resources (Energy/Ammo). Those resources, without external input, can only do a set amount of actions(damage). Mods like Intensify give you more actions for the same amount of resources, Natural Talent doens't. Hence Naturl Talent is Utility.

Edited January 13, 2016 by ShortCat

[ashrah]

for any  not skilled players who use for example nekros natural talent is must

[VectorWolf]

[snip]

Ok, tell me, how many enemies you will kill spamming RJ 22 times in a row without stopping? First one might hurt them, second will probably kill them, and then? you hurt 3 more that just spawned. and then finish them off with the next cast? And what next?

On low level you cast one-hit damage abilities once, and wait or move to another room, because all your enemies are dead. How -1 second on casting affects that?

On high levels you don't use damage abilities, only CC ones, and many of those are unrecastable or are constant. How shorting those by 1 second affects your DPS?

Besides, only few direct damage abilities are affected by NT, and those that are are more outshined by CC ones, or AoE weapons.

[(XBOX)DRKing7287]

It would be 50%. 33.3% is decrease in cast animation time, which results in 50% more casts in the same amount of time.

And it is easily possible as long as we have EV Trin in the game. Also, it is still pretty doable if a frame has 75% efficiency and high energy resource. Even Excal with P. Flow would be able to cast RJ 22 times until running out of energy. Add Zenurik and he can last even longer.

 

Indeed, please stop. Or you would say, that increasing reload speed on, say, Vectis won't affect its DPS?

 

Since when "a lot" equals "very few"?

I take my words back on this one, NT indeed seems to have close to zero effect on abilities like Freeze or Shock. However, abilities like Radial Javelin or Avalanche benefit greatly from it.

Sorry bro that's not how math works. Decreasing the time it takes to do something 33% doesn't mean you can do it 50% more in the same amount of time. There's also gonna be the fact that many casts will be completely wasted if someone is spamming them as fast as they can bc you have to wait for more enemies to get in range or it does nothing.

[Epsik-kun]

No it can't. It increases cast speed so it works like reload speed mods. The 50% increase only reduces cast time by 33%.

 

Sorry bro that's not how math works. Decreasing the time it takes to do something 33% doesn't mean you can do it 50% more in the same amount of time. There's also gonna be the fact that many casts will be completely wasted if someone is spamming them as fast as they can bc you have to wait for more enemies to get in range or it does nothing.

Oh boy, let's do some basic mathematics:

Let's say it takes one second to make one cast of a skill;

In ten seconds you'll be able to do 10/1 = 10 casts;

Natural talent increases cast speed by 50%, it means it decreases cast time to 1/1.5 ~ 0.67 of the base;

Our casting time with NT is 0.67 * 1 = 0.67 seconds per cast;

So with NT in ten seconds you'll be able to do 10/0.67 ~ 15 casts, which is 50% more than without NT;

Let's assume that our cast deals 1 point of damage;

Then, in ten seconds you will be able to deal 10 * 1 = 10 damage without NT and 15 * 1 = 15 damage with NT;

15 / 10 = 1.5 or 150%, which means NT increases damage per second from 100% to 150%;

The increase from NT is 150% - 100% = 50%;

 

Does any one of you have any more stupid things to say?

 

 

I understand your point of view, but don't forget it is a game world, with a lot of limitations and a lot of mechanics boil down to a few major numbers like damage or EHP. Natural Talent or reload mods increase theoretical DPS, because they reduce downtime, hell, even Ammo Drum inceases DPS under this circumstances.

But this is only a side effect of their actual purpose, which is to support handling of a tool, aaand because a game is a simple universe (read above) you will influence the major numbers.

 

With your attitude you really should hate Rush as well. Rush allows every Frame to move faster and come faster into effecive combat range, I especially mention Valkyr here.

 

Now, how can we separate Utilitymods from Powermods? Simple. At a given time you have a set amount of resources (Energy/Ammo). Those resources, without external input, can only do a set amount of actions(damage). Mods like Intensify give you more actions for the same amount of resources, Natural Talent doens't. Hence Naturl Talent is Utility.

Potential 50% DPS increase is a little overboard for "Utility mod".

 

And no, I don't tend to hate things. Also, Rush is nowhere as OP as Handspring on my main frame.

 

Ok, tell me, how many enemies you will kill spamming RJ 22 times in a row without stopping? First one might hurt them, second will probably kill them, and then? you hurt 3 more that just spawned. and then finish them off with the next cast? And what next?

On low level you cast one-hit damage abilities once, and wait or move to another room, because all your enemies are dead. How -1 second on casting affects that?

On high levels you don't use damage abilities, only CC ones, and many of those are unrecastable or are constant. How shorting those by 1 second affects your DPS?

Besides, only few direct damage abilities are affected by NT, and those that are are more outshined by CC ones, or AoE weapons.

A lot. Kill speed directly affects spawn speed. RJ Excalibur with NT can kill over 1.5k enemies in Draco during one cap2 wave. RJ Excal without NT will struggle to get 1k kills during the same wave.

There are lot of variable factors, like enemies moving in and out of AoE, but increased casting speed has a positive effect on that as well.

[ShortCat]

Potential 50% DPS increase is a little overboard for "Utility mod".

Besides ignoring all my argumentation and explanation, do you have more to say, rather than mentioning Excalibur and RJ every time?

[Misgenesis]

I would probably use NT on every frame if it was changed to an exilus mod. Chipping even like 0.5 seconds from a 1-2 second cast is essential to me.

 

None of the Drift/Mobility mods would matter to me at that point.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Misgenesis

[(XBOX)DRKing7287]

Oh boy, let's do some basic mathematics:

Let's say it takes one second to make one cast of a skill;

In ten seconds you'll be able to do 10/1 = 10 casts;

Natural talent increases cast speed by 50%, it means it decreases cast time to 1/1.5 ~ 0.67 of the base;

Our casting time with NT is 0.67 * 1 = 0.67 seconds per cast;

So with NT in ten seconds you'll be able to do 10/0.67 ~ 15 casts, which is 50% more than without NT;

Let's assume that our cast deals 1 point of damage;

Then, in ten seconds you will be able to deal 10 * 1 = 10 damage without NT and 15 * 1 = 15 damage with NT;

15 / 10 = 1.5 or 150%, which means NT increases damage per second from 100% to 150%;

The increase from NT is 150% - 100% = 50%;

 

Does any one of you have any more stupid things to say?

 

 

Potential 50% DPS increase is a little overboard for "Utility mod".

 

And no, I don't tend to hate things. Also, Rush is nowhere as OP as Handspring on my main frame.

 

A lot. Kill speed directly affects spawn speed. RJ Excalibur with NT can kill over 1.5k enemies in Draco during one cap2 wave. RJ Excal without NT will struggle to get 1k kills during the same wave.

There are lot of variable factors, like enemies moving in and out of AoE, but increased casting speed has a positive effect on that as well.

How about you refrain from your childish name calling and address the practical issue. No one cares how fast you can cast if enemies don't have time to get in range. Spamming casts faster than enemies can get in range does nothing but waste energy.

[Epsik-kun]

Besides ignoring all my argumentation and explanation, do you have more to say, rather than mentioning Excalibur and RJ every time?

I can mention Avalanche Frost instead. But as long as RJ Excal having 50% DPS increase with NT is a thing, NT shouldn't go to the Exilus slot, despite this not changing much for RJ Excal himself.

Excal is just the most obvious example, which I know good due to maining him. And NT is by no means "an utility" mod for RJ Excal - it is a core, hence all your argumentation is considered invalid, thus - ignored.

 

How about you refrain from your childish name calling and address the practical issue. No one cares how fast you can cast if enemies don't have time to get in range. Spamming casts faster than enemies can get in range does nothing but waste energy.

How about you won't call "name calling" something that contains no name calling? I addressed the practical use already. NT is very powerful on frames with wide AoE abilities and squads formed around them in any endless mission.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[ShortCat]

 

I can mention Avalanche Frost instead. But as long as RJ Excal having 50% DPS increase with NT is a thing, NT shouldn't go to the Exilus slot, despite this not changing much for RJ Excal himself.

Excal is just the most obvious example, which I know good due to maining him. And NT is by no means "an utility" mod for RJ Excal - it is a core, hence all your argumentation is considered invalid, thus - ignored.

Yes, we get it. NT greatly increases DPS for RJ Excalibur.

Did I meantion Valkyr? If you go for a melee build, Rush will greatly increase your damage output, because you can move from enemy to enemy faster and thus spend more time punching stuff. Now, don't campare her to Excalibur, but compare her to Valky without speedboost. Under this conditions Rush functions the same way.

Here I will again reference to my previous post, especially the last paragraph, because you seem not to understand what people say to you.

 

Yes, there are certain Frames/Weapons which profit from some mods more than others. It has always been like this and always will be. And you, being so adamant to realize, there are other Frames, not even DPS centered, which need it for utility, pigeonhold and ignore them. 

 

This is my last reply to you, due to your immature behaviour and inability to contribute to a discussion.

[Tesseract7777]

Before I would have said we would never see a mod like Natural Talent as exilus. Now... with the Drift mods... Idk. Still, the drift mods have three stats and only give a small amount to warframe stats, so I'm not sure casting speed being in drift means anything. They seem to be the exception and not the rule, as one of them, for example, gives +15% power strength. And yet, despite that change, I don't think we are going to see them allow Intensify in an exilus slot. 

 

Natural Talent is far too mandatory for far too many builds, and can have too much advantage on direct warframe powers. I think seeing a small casting speed buff as part of a triple stat mod is the closest they are going to give us to it as exilus. Still, they can always change their minds. 

 

I just think it very unlikely. 

[(XBOX)DRKing7287]

I can mention Avalanche Frost instead. But as long as RJ Excal having 50% DPS increase with NT is a thing, NT shouldn't go to the Exilus slot, despite this not changing much for RJ Excal himself.

Excal is just the most obvious example, which I know good due to maining him. And NT is by no means "an utility" mod for RJ Excal - it is a core, hence all your argumentation is considered invalid, thus - ignored.

How about you won't call "name calling" something that contains no name calling? I addressed the practical use already. NT is very powerful on frames with wide AoE abilities and squads formed around them in any endless mission.

Oh I'm sorry not name calling just making arrogant, condescending remarks like "anymore stupid things to say" either way its childish. In no way did you address it. Spamming an ability faster than enemies can get in range does NOTHING but waste energy. Maybe you just don't understand the difference between theoretical and practical.

Most frames that run natural talent do so to speed up abilities that do no damage in the first place. Nekros for desecrate, nyx for chaos, mirage to blind with prism. And you're telling me it would be broken for them to have faster cast speed?

The whole Excalibur with a trinity spamming rj is a single bad example. Bc that only works with the perfect setups that many people refuse to use bc it's boring and lazy. Refusing to actually play the game like that is not the playstyle the game should be balanced around.

Edited January 14, 2016 by (XB1)DRKing7287