Steps to balance without losing Warframe's "feel"

[Mr.Lube]

On 3/14/2016 at 9:54 PM, Fifield said:

A small portion of it, yes.  It should be obvious I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about being able to kill 5 enemies with one bullet in T4..  I deliberately nerf myself because the game's easier than Care Bears Rainbow Playtime.  Enemies should have more health but scale slower in endless missions.

That really depends on what gun you are using. Some guns just need nerfs.

[Mr.Lube]

Changed the title and made some revisions based on feedback.

[Fifield]

On 16/03/2016 at 6:46 PM, Mr.Lube said:

That really depends on what gun you are using. Some guns just need nerfs.

Since the game strongly compels us to use the strongest weapons, I'm not sure that's much of a counterargument.

Also, lack of level cap on enemies isn't what compels power creep.  It's mostly DE's unwillingness to nerf.

[Mr.Lube]

Just now, Fifield said:

Since the game strongly compels us to use the strongest weapons, I'm not sure that's much of a counterargument.

Also, lack of level cap on enemies isn't what compels power creep.  It's mostly DE's unwillingness to nerf.

I agree that they are unwilling to nerf. But I also believe that they don't have a real model to balance equipment around, so they just release random stuff and see where it ends up.

[Fifield]

Except nearly all the melee weapons they've released are exactly balanced.  All the syndicate secondaries they've released are exactly balanced.  They haven't released an OP frame since 2013.  The top tier Primaries are balanced with each other.

They've said repeatedly they target level 80 enemies.

But they make mistakes and don't correct them.  Partly that's because of this forum.  They even had a poll as to whether to nerf Boltor and Soma Primes -- implying they thought these needed to be nerfed.  They didn't have the courage of their convictions.

And then they put out new stuff at the new level of OPness.

 

Edited March 19, 2016 by Fifield

[Mr.Lube]

On 3/19/2016 at 6:01 PM, Fifield said:

Except nearly all the melee weapons they've released are exactly balanced.  All the syndicate secondaries they've released are exactly balanced.  They haven't released an OP frame since 2013.  The top tier Primaries are balanced with each other.

They've said repeatedly they target level 80 enemies.

But they make mistakes and don't correct them.  Partly that's because of this forum.  They even had a poll as to whether to nerf Boltor and Soma Primes -- implying they thought these needed to be nerfed.  They didn't have the courage of their convictions.

And then they put out new stuff at the new level of OPness.

 

Not all melee weapons they release are balanced. Every time a new weapon is released it is either the next big thing, or it's mastery fodder.

There shouldn't be "top tier" weapons in the first place. They keep releasing all these new and interesting weapons with cool mechanics and visuals, but nobody uses them because they can't put out the same damage as the top tier. Without mastery, nobody would build them.  

What do you mean they target level 80 enemies? There is no difference in play based on enemy level. 

[Fifield]

26 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

Not all melee weapons they release are balanced. Every time a new weapon is released it is either the next big thing, or it's mastery fodder. 

Didn't say they were and I'm not talking about all weapons.

27 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

What do you mean they target level 80 enemies? There is no difference in play based on enemy level. 

You said they need a level cap.  They don't.  They already target level 80 enemies as the cap.

The main problem, as I said, is they don't have the balls to nerf.  I can think of only one thing they nerfed that wasn't an exploit: Synoid Gammacor.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

On 07/03/2016 at 7:50 AM, Mr.Lube said:

That sounds nice, but all that would go to waste if we don't first balance both sides of the equation (Warframes and enemies). Enemy tactics would be completely nullified by one CC ability. This would be a nice addition after everything is toned down and balanced out.

Developers clearly described what the game is meant to be. You play as godlike warrior who comes in and obliterates entire army/ship etc. Dynasty warriors is great comparison. Stop asking for stuff that doesn't belong in this game. 

[Mr.Lube]

20 minutes ago, Fifield said:

You said they need a level cap.  They don't.  They already target level 80 enemies as the cap.

The main problem, as I said, is they don't have the balls to nerf.  I can think of only one thing they nerfed that wasn't an exploit: Synoid Gammacor.

An enemy cap isn't needed, but it would make things considerably easier in my opinion, in terms of new content and balance. Even if they are targeting level 80, the game doesn't get any harder than it was at level 40 if you bring certain frames.

And yes, they do need to nerf some things. (Trinity)

[Fifield]

 

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Developers clearly described what the game is meant to be. You play as godlike warrior who comes in and obliterates entire army/ship etc. Dynasty warriors is great comparison.

I don't remember any of them saying 'obliterates entire army by pressing 4'.

[Mr.Lube]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Developers clearly described what the game is meant to be. You play as godlike warrior who comes in and obliterates entire army/ship etc. Dynasty warriors is great comparison. Stop asking for stuff that doesn't belong in this game. 

The devs obviously want balance. If they didn't there would be no Nullifiers/Bursas. The thing is, we are so powerful that any challenge they implement is simply cheesy.

[Fifield]

15 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

An enemy cap isn't needed, but it would make things considerably easier in my opinion, in terms of new content and balance.

There's no real evidence of that.   Plus you need endless missions to stop some time.  Also, I would like a planet where enemies start at level 150.

15 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

the game doesn't get any harder than it was at level 40 if you bring certain frames.

Some truth to that.  Those powers need urgent nerfs.

15 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

And yes, they do need to nerf some things. (Trinity)

Tell me about it.  I started a thread that wasn't even about nerfing Trinity and the bogus counterarguments that Trinity shouldn't be balanced have been non-stop for 24 hours already.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/627491-there are only-6 major-roles-for-frames-in-the-game-and-trinity-dominates-almost-half-of-them/

BTW you nailed it with your last comment.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Fifield

[Mr.Lube]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

There's no real evidence of that.  Plus I would like a planet where enemies start at level 150.

Some truth to that.  Those powers need urgent nerfs.

Tell me about it.  I started a thread that wasn't even about nerfing Trinity and the bogus counterarguments that Trinity shouldn't be balanced have been non-stop for 24 hours already.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/627491-there are only-6 major-roles-for-frames-in-the-game-and-trinity-dominates-almost-half-of-them/

The reason why I'm suggesting a massive scale rework and re-balance is because if DE simply nerfed a bunch of stuff, the community would lose their S#&$. Building a new system from the ground up somewhat hides the "nerfing" part of the arrangement, while also opening new doors that are locked shut by our current system.

[Fifield]

There's only a handful of them.  Plus what they gonna do?  Make this forum of whiny bad suggestions slightly worse? LOL

[Genitive]

I quite like the idea of level cap. After a point different threats could be introduced to challenge players. Basically they could change into a nightmare mode after a while.

If at least half of the OP's ideas will be introduced, I will be very happy.

[motorfirebox]

1 hour ago, Genitive said:

I quite like the idea of level cap. After a point different threats could be introduced to challenge players. Basically they could change into a nightmare mode after a while.

If at least half of the OP's ideas will be introduced, I will be very happy.

Or just start adding simultaneous game modes. Like, you're doing a survival run, and at wave 40 Lotus discovers a piece of Orokin technology that has to be defended for up to 10 waves. Or you're doing a defense mission, and Lotus tells you to intercept a transmission. At wave 60, maybe you have to intercept and defend and maintain life support.

[DuskLegendary]

I don't want to be the guy to complain, but this is true. I'm MR10 right now, so the only reliable weapon I have access to at the moment that can even put a dent in lv. 100+ enemies is the Tonkor. My fully modded Soma P just doesn't cut it at all at that point no matter how many head shot red crits I land on the enemy. I think some weapons need a buff very badly to keep up with end game enemies,or as you mentioned, how they scale needs to be fixed. 

Now, I do want end game to be difficult, because well.... it's end game. But not so difficult that I'm forced to use 1 of about 4 viable end game weapons and a handful of end game viable frames to avoid being outright 1 shot by the enemy. And then we have the neutralisers... on most Sorties, I end up using Valkyr and the Tonkor. I know that's cheesy, but at MR10, that's about as good as it gets. 

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, Genitive said:

I quite like the idea of level cap. After a point different threats could be introduced to challenge players. Basically they could change into a nightmare mode after a while.

If at least half of the OP's ideas will be introduced, I will be very happy.

Thank you for the support!

[EgAlia]

I fully agree, in my opinion it's not a challenge really if you don't get a chance to react(1-shots). I have the most fun at 30-50 in enemy level still they go down pretty easy, but atleast I wont get 1-shot and I don't need to spam cc and abuse game mechanics.

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, Satanistmicke said:

I fully agree, in my opinion it's not a challenge really if you don't get a chance to react(1-shots). I have the most fun at 30-50 in enemy level still they go down pretty easy, but atleast I wont get 1-shot and I don't need to spam cc and abuse game mechanics.

Exactly.

[Mr.Lube]

18 hours ago, DuskLegendary said:

I don't want to be the guy to complain, but this is true. I'm MR10 right now, so the only reliable weapon I have access to at the moment that can even put a dent in lv. 100+ enemies is the Tonkor. My fully modded Soma P just doesn't cut it at all at that point no matter how many head shot red crits I land on the enemy. I think some weapons need a buff very badly to keep up with end game enemies,or as you mentioned, how they scale needs to be fixed. 

Now, I do want end game to be difficult, because well.... it's end game. But not so difficult that I'm forced to use 1 of about 4 viable end game weapons and a handful of end game viable frames to avoid being outright 1 shot by the enemy. And then we have the neutralisers... on most Sorties, I end up using Valkyr and the Tonkor. I know that's cheesy, but at MR10, that's about as good as it gets. 

I know that feel. I wish I could use stuff like the Daikyu in late game content.

[Mr.Lube]

On 3/21/2016 at 10:22 PM, motorfirebox said:

Or just start adding simultaneous game modes. Like, you're doing a survival run, and at wave 40 Lotus discovers a piece of Orokin technology that has to be defended for up to 10 waves. Or you're doing a defense mission, and Lotus tells you to intercept a transmission. At wave 60, maybe you have to intercept and defend and maintain life support.

This is a very interesting concept. I like the direction its taking.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

On 21/03/2016 at 5:50 AM, Satanistmicke said:

I fully agree, in my opinion it's not a challenge really if you don't get a chance to react(1-shots). I have the most fun at 30-50 in enemy level still they go down pretty easy, but atleast I wont get 1-shot and I don't need to spam cc and abuse game mechanics.

Then maybe sortie 3 and raids simply need to be lvl 50?  Easy solutions first.

[Volinus7]

In summary

the game is too hard we QQ

the game is too easy we QQ

[fakeBOSHI]

19 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

In summary

the game is too hard we QQ

the game is too easy we QQ

If that's the only level of understanding you have then sure, essentialize away. Here I thought complex problems deserved complex analysis and targeted solutions.