A quick discussion about Trinity

[DALOS]

I've said stuff about this months ago, so I guess I'm going to bring it up again. I won't take up too much time and I'm trying to keep out the salt as much as possible. Ok here we go.

Have you ever taken a good, critical, look at trinity? Like, every Raid, almost every Draco mission, many Sorties and a bunch of endless Orokin Derelict and Void missions just to name a few... in all that stuff trinity is needed. Her whole goal is to make sure you never die, and I will admit that it's a job that takes attention. But don't you ever feel like you're dependent on here? A wise man once said that you don't control objects, objects control you and it seems that everyone's a slave to this frame.

Now I'm not necessarily saying she need a nerf, I'm saying that as far as health and energy support goes, no other frame compares; How many of you bring Equinox along for healing? How many of you use desecrate for the plethora of health orbs that drop, and not just to farm? How many of you find merit in Oberon's healing ability?

Now I don't claim to know the answer to this problem, maybe the other frames need to get on her level, or maybe Trinity just needs a fresh change to her mechanics, again I don't know I'm just making an observation.

Thank you for your time.

[Misgenesis]

Fixing this problem starts from damage 3.0 or scaling fixes or whatever theyre coming up with. Then we can 'fix' Trinity.

[DALOS]

33 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Fixing this problem starts from damage 3.0 or scaling fixes or whatever theyre coming up with. Then we can 'fix' Trinity.

I see what you mean, damage hasn't been a big concern for me though I'm starting to see the value in that opinion.

[PikeOrShield]

I think she helps form one of those "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts" things.  An RJ Excalibur is trash tier without a Trinity and Trinity has no CC so she can't really solo any defensive missions.  I would not mind a change to Trinity's mechanics, specifically EV, since it promotes very unhealthy gameplay.  Maybe if they changed it into an energy siphon type ability: you don't have to cast it on enemies but it gives like, 8 energy per second instead of 100.

The not dying aspect for teammates is part of the trade off for no CC.  Compare it to other ults like molecular prime and it may not even be half as good in some situations.  Equinox and Oberon can deal with a crowd when they have to.  Trinity is reliant on others.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

She diesnt need a nerf...equinox and oberon need buffs

[DALOS]

22 minutes ago, PikeOrShield said:

I think she helps form one of those "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts" things.  An RJ Excalibur is trash tier without a Trinity and Trinity has no CC so she can't really solo any defensive missions.  I would not mind a change to Trinity's mechanics, specifically EV, since it promotes very unhealthy gameplay.  Maybe if they changed it into an energy siphon type ability: you don't have to cast it on enemies but it gives like, 8 energy per second instead of 100.

The not dying aspect for teammates is part of the trade off for no CC.  Compare it to other ults like molecular prime and it may not even be half as good in some situations.  Equinox and Oberon can deal with a crowd when they have to.  Trinity is reliant on others.

I certainly hear what your saying about Energy Vampire, maybe make it based on how much damage is dealt, that way it makes you want to fight.

Though I feel as though you're statement about Trinity's "not dying = no cc bit" is faulty. It's part of what I was saying before; why choose any other frame for healing? The fact that she is dedicated support with no cc means that everyone else has to build around her, thus promoting the problem I pointed out. Further more, her lack of cc can be made up for with a number of weapons(Jat Kittag slam, sonicor, staticor charge, penta,  simulor, etc.).

Regardless I thank you for participating in this discussion, and I think we can all agree on, it's that well of life is redundant and useless.

[TheLexiConArtist]

The issue comes with the catch-22 content DE brings us - massively buffed Sorties, ridiculous Raids.

It's a vicious cycle of cheese begets cheese. We cheese (Blessing), so the enemies cheese (enough damage to be oneshot from everything), so we cheese (Blind Mirage), so the enemies cheese (Nullifier spam)...

The two are intrinsically linked, we can't really approach either individually. If player cheese was destroyed, Raids and certain Sorties would be practically impossible. Trying those Earth Interceptions with elemental buffed level 100 Grineer is frustrating at best without a cheese mechanic. If enemy cheese gets reduced, content becomes boring and faceroll again.

Still, I for one would prefer boring faceroll to frustrating impossibility. Obviously I'd far prefer the middle ground between the two, as is the ultimate goal of course, but if I had to choose an extreme, I'd rather be able to succeed dully than not at all. Human nature.

[Inmemoratus]

7 hours ago, DALOS said:

every Raid, almost every Draco mission, many Sorties and a bunch of endless Orokin Derelict and Void missions just to name a few... in all that stuff trinity is needed.

This stuff isn't true.

Draco

It's very popular to do Draco with pubs and you almost never see Trinity in that case. Because people just play whatever they want. The Trin/Excal/Rhino/Frost thing is so stupid anyway. Excalibur can't level weapons in this setup, so unless the Excal player needs to gain focus and/or syndicate standing it's inherently inefficient. 1/4 of the total exp gained by the squad is wasted. Even with focus/standing only a small percentage of Excal's total affiinty is actually converted to those. So it's a waste. Sure, the other 3 players get a lot of affinity but that doesn't change the fact that one player is basically wasting his time. If you swap roles, you do extra runs.

Sorties

I do the sorties every single day. Have not missed one in 3 weeks. The fact is, I rarely see Trinity. I don't do it in recruiting. I just pub it. I beat them in the first try every time, with pubs. Rarely is there a Trinity, and she doesn't even matter. For any mission type I can think of a much better frame to bring.

Void/Derelict

I've definitely seen people request Trinity for these groups, but depending on the mission type other frames are usually considered more essential. When I do these missions with friends we don't use Trinity. Not out of some anti-meta defiance but simply because none of us are interested in playing her usually.

 

The only one I have nothing to say about is Raid since I've never done it. Regardless, Trinity is optional in everything else and other frames are far more important on every mission type.

[Hellmaker2004]

10 hours ago, DALOS said:

Now I'm not necessarily saying she need a nerf, I'm saying that as far as health and energy support goes, no other frame compares; How many of you bring Equinox along for healing? How many of you use desecrate for the plethora of health orbs that drop, and not just to farm? How many of you find merit in Oberon's healing ability?

 

Trinity has better healing and it is clear why she does so if you take a step back and look over the whole kit.

 

Instead of only comparing healing compare all effects each frame can offer instead. How much Damage can Trinity offer compared to Oberon / Equinox. How much Crowd Control can Trinity offer compared to Oberon and Equinox. Maybe if you focus on the whole kit rather than one thing they offer it will be clear why she heals better than either of those two.

That being said, Oberon do need some sort of buff. Be it either from lowering the cost from his healing skill, or increasing healing amount.

 

Trinity has one big problem right now that they need to fix. And the healing is not it. What they need to resolve is the Self damage 99.6% Damage resistance that almost renders hostile damage worthless, a play style some people are using her for. It sets a bad default value to "balance" hard content around and a unrealistic standard.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[Misgenesis]

9 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Trinity has one big problem right now that they need to fix. And the healing is not it. What they need to resolve is the Self damage 99.6% Damage resistance that almost renders hostile damage worthless, a play style some people are using her for. It sets a bad default value to "balance" hard content around and a unrealistic standard.

Team wide 99% damage resistance is a problem in itself, there is little to no challenge in the game as long as thats possible. Self damage or not.

But like i mentioned, DE needs to fix scaling first before we can change that.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Misgenesis

[Inmemoratus]

1 hour ago, Misgenesis said:

Team wide 99% damage resistance is a problem in itself, there is little to no challenge in the game as long as thats possible. Self damage or not.

But like i mentioned, DE needs to fix scaling first before we can change that.

No they don't. Trinity is not required for anything, so they can definitely fix 99% blessing without changing enemy scaling.

In fact the only problem with scaling is that it's not interesting. It's just higher numbers. It should be different mechanics showing up at different levels. But as for the numbers? No, it's not "broken" and no you don't need trinity. You just suck.

[DALOS]

9 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

How much Damage can Trinity offer compared to Oberon / Equinox.

A lot actually, if you take into account how EV deals damage based on enemy level rather than a fixed number.

[Inmemoratus]

6 hours ago, DALOS said:

A lot actually, if you take into account how EV deals damage based on enemy level rather than a fixed number.

Targeting one enemy at a time with a % health DoT isn't going to match up to amplifying all damage like Equinox does.

[Hellmaker2004]

6 hours ago, DALOS said:

A lot actually, if you take into account how EV deals damage based on enemy level rather than a fixed number.

 

It deals 6.25% Damage four times within the duration and even if you remove the duration with the help of corruption mods it will only go down to 1.125 Seconds duration and 6.25% multiplied by 4 is 25% it is still not a lot compared to Equinox or Oberon.

 

The only reason it is considered "good" are for the fact it deals finisher damage and % based upon there health. So no matter if you fight a level 1 mob or a level 999 mob it will kill within the same time(The level 1 might die earlier as there is a minimum amount of damage it can deal but in general this is true.)

 

I am not sure about you, but i do not consider 25% over 1.125 seconds on a single target to be a lot. The only argument here is that Oberon and Equinox will eventual fall of with there damage considering how the scaling works in the game.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[RealPandemonium]

EV Trinity can oneshot any enemy that can be affected by EV.  Cast WoL, then cast EV as WoL is ending.  Target will die quickly, since the EV is dealing 10x its normal damage.  

Trinity is far from necessary in any mission.  The only times Trinity is even warranted IMO is during [NM] Raids, Draco, and theoretical endless missions past 1 hour.  Trinity is not needed in sorties, credit farm, 40min endless missions, or even in normal raids.  The current popularity of Trinity is toxic, supporting bad builds and bad players and keeping them in stagnation.  I would support an attempt of a major overhaul of Trinity, since the current Trinity is just exploitable at best.  

Edited February 29, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Hellmaker2004]

30 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

EV Trinity can oneshot any enemy that can be affected by EV.  Cast WoL, then cast EV as WoL is ending.  Target will die quickly, since the EV is dealing 10x its normal damage.  

 

This is partially true, it will end up dealing a massive amount of damage to a Single target, but quick? Using both WoL and EV has a combined cast delay of ~1,5 seconds so both Oberon and Equinox are still capable of dealing more damage in less time frame and in AoE. Hell with a ~1,5 seconds cast delay i can fire of a Sancti Tigris twice and probably deal more damage on more foes with exception if opponents damage resistance has reached a ridiculous amount.

It is true she never falls of with EV damage, but for a ~1,5 seconds cast delay with both abilities not able to be used mid air or while moving (Sliding works), and neither of them are considered a one handed action kinda limits your use of said ability. Sure it has its uses, and it is capable of dealing high damage to a single target but in almost all scenarios it would be better to shoot at a foe instead.

 

All of this kinda adds up to not be what i consider quick in a very high percentage of the cases.

[RealPandemonium]

20 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

 

This is partially true, it will end up dealing a massive amount of damage to a Single target, but quick? Using both WoL and EV has a combined cast delay of ~1,5 seconds so both Oberon and Equinox are still capable of dealing more damage in less time frame and in AoE. Hell with a ~1,5 seconds cast delay i can fire of a Sancti Tigris twice and probably deal more damage on more foes with exception if opponents damage resistance has reached a ridiculous amount.

It is true she never falls of with EV damage, but for a ~1,5 seconds cast delay with both abilities not able to be used mid air or while moving (Sliding works), and neither of them are considered a one handed action kinda limits your use of said ability. Sure it has its uses, and it is capable of dealing high damage to a single target but in almost all scenarios it would be better to shoot at a foe instead.

 

All of this kinda adds up to not be what i consider quick in a very high percentage of the cases.

Being able to one-shot a level 70+ heavy Grineer Eximus in around 3 seconds with abilities alone is pretty substantial.  It is true that weapons have become so powercreeped that this is no longer as valuable, but being able to do this without bringing powercreeped weapons is pretty nifty.  I've pretty much never seen anyone else do it, though.  Most of the EV Trinities I encounter outside of Draco or raids are dead weight.