I Really, Really Love Valkyr, but... (I don't love being permanently invincible)

[KaneAshe]

...I had to stop playing her because she was ruining the game for me.

I love her concept, I love her aesthetics, I love having so much armor... But I do not love being permanently invincible.

Brief invincibility can feel fun and powerful, permanent invincibility makes everything in the entire game feel pointless--including the process of collecting new items and powering up your Warframe, seeing as how Valk doesn't really need any of that to render almost all of the game's legitimate content completely trivial.

Please note, this is not a "nerf" thread. I know portions of this community have an allergic reaction to any mention of nerfs or balance tweaking, so let's completely set aside all argument over whether or not Valkyr is "OP" or not. The real issue at stake for me is that I can't even have fun with the character that I want to play the most.

Permanently. Invincible. Is. Boring.

Where's the excitement in knowing that nothing you do really matters because there is nothing whatsoever an enemy can do to stop you? How is it fun to have the highest armor in the game AND built-in lifesteal (both major reasons for why I chose Valk in the first place) When You Do Not Even Take Damage?!

I want to play as the deadly cat-like meat grinder of rage who survives by continually mowing down enemies while shrugging off damage as long as she is able to continue killing things... not the walking godmode who wonders why she is even playing the game because enemies might as well all die as soon as she enters the level to save her the trouble of killing them.

I want to have an objective to what I am doing, and a reason to use my characters strengths, and for my character to actually have weaknesses that I have to work around. (...No, being melee is not weakness. Not when there is absolutely no risk to your health regardless of how much time you have to spend traveling to an enemy. The reason why melee is traditionally considered a weakness is because Melee Exposes You To More Damage. ...Well, not for Valk. End of side-rant.)

Please return the synergy to Valkyr's kit and make her gameplay engaging and exciting by whatever means necessary. Berserker gameplay should involve adrenaline. It's impossible to feel adrenaline when there is no threat and nothing at stake.

~Thank you from a player who wishes to be a Valkyr player.

Edited March 2, 2016 by KaneAshe

[Gurpgork]

I had been thinking of making a Valkyr thread similar to this, only with a lot of proposed changes alongside it, but ultimately decided against it. So thank you for making it. This is pretty much exactly what I've been thinking as someone who mained Valkyr until 17.5 came out.

That being said, talking about a problem and not offering solutions isn't productive. In the spirit of that notion, here are my proposed solutions for making Valkyr the demonic flurry of claws/personification of rage that she is supposed to be.

 

Spoiler

Rip Line

• Energy cost decreased to 15.
• Energy cost further reduced if cast while airborne. (Negotiable)
• Can be cast without inhibiting movement in any way.
• Evasion improved substantially while in use.
• Pull speed further increased.
• Aerial units become temporarily grounded when hit with Rip Line.

Warcry

• Recastable, which applies the debuff to new enemies and the buff to new allies.
• Armor buff increases with melee combo meter, similar to the Blood Rush mod.
• Base armor buff increased to 100%.
• Eternal War becomes inherent.

Paralysis

• Base range increased to 15 meters.
• Can now stun enemies during animations.
• Aerial units are disabled and fall to the ground for the stun duration.
• Counts as a Blind.

Hysteria

• Invulnerability removed.
• Now delays fatal damage for a very short duration (1-2 seconds, not scaling with Duration mods).
• Boosts movement speed and all parkour effects by 25%.
• Base range of claws improved, matches heavy blades.
• Melee combo meter lasts 6-8 seconds for Hysteria.

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Gurpgork
Made a couple adjustments for clarity and incorporated a couple suggestions made throughout the thread.

[tripletriple]

Everytime I see a valkyr thread like this I can't help but think how egotistical the person on the other side must be.

What is boring to you is fun for others. Where is the alternatives to hysteria? Where are the other ideas to enhance her otherwise lack luster kit?

Where is your original and unique proposals to change her into an actual berserker? Nerf is a terrible word for valkyr. She needs buffs and a change to hysteria.

This is just a whining thread without those.

EDIT 

Just saw gurporks ideas. Great ideas there. Definitely would support that. My only addition would be to make ripline hit multiple targets.

Edited March 2, 2016 by tripletriple
saw gurporks post

[Gurpgork]

12 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

Just saw gurporks ideas. Great ideas there. Definitely would support that. My only addition would be to make ripline hit multiple targets.

I don't know about that... I've always thought Rip Line should be more of a mobility skill than anything else. 

Maybe it could be an augment? Something that made it pull a bunch of targets, but it loses the mobility aspect? Although that would be effectively a worse version of Mag's pull.

[KaneAshe]

18 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

Everytime I see a valkyr thread like this I can't help but think how egotistical the person on the other side must be.

What is boring to you is fun for others. Where is the alternatives to hysteria? Where are the other ideas to enhance her otherwise lack luster kit?

Where is your original and unique proposals to change her into an actual berserker? Nerf is a terrible word for valkyr. She needs buffs and a change to hysteria.

This is just a whining thread without those.

Personally I think it's pretty egotistical to comment on what someone else's personality must be without having a clue about them or even taking the time to understand their intentions. This is a positive feedback thread about a character that I love, please keep it civil and refrain from personal attacks or insults.

As for suggestions for change, I don't particularly feel it is necessary because the important part of feedback for developers is just seeing what players like and don't like. We don't need to tell them the specifics of how to make their game, that's their job. Though I am sure they do accept specific suggestions from time to time, more often than not I'm sure they simply just check the pulse of the community and come up with their own ideas based on that.

That said, I don't wish to discourage any specific and valuable suggestions others may bring such as Gurpgork's post (those are some good ideas which I would be perfectly happy with).

 

[Inmemoratus]

So do most people find her boring or just a few people including you?

[WARLOCKE]

I find her so boring that I never use Hysteria, ever. Its the only way I can play her. So he is not alone.

[PrVonTuckIII]

As a person who enjoys Valkyr greatly, I can say that for a while, Hysteria's invincibility is fun. It feels nice to not take any damage. But add on that Life-Steal, and suddenly it becomes a bit too much. These days, I honestly don't activate Hysteria unless I need some quick health. I feel like invinc is completely unnecessary with that life-steal.

[CriticalFumble]

Ok, your forum profile says Febuary 16th as your join date.  If you started playing around that time, I'm going to have to assume you haven't actually seen "most of the content" in order to judge that she trivializes all of it (as you imply, with very few mods).  I'm not going to argue that she's not good - for certain things - but if you haven't seen high-end Corpus missions, or T4 Void missions, you really can't appreciate the position she's in.  

I'd also not argue that her being completly invulnerable in hysteria is a non-negotiable feature, but again until you've seen genuine high level content, you have no idea what you're asking for.  

21 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

I don't know about that... I've always thought Rip Line should be more of a mobility skill than anything else. 

Maybe it could be an augment? Something that made it pull a bunch of targets, but it loses the mobility aspect? Although that would be effectively a worse version of Mag's pull.

Rip line is a fun, under-developed, under-appreciated ablity.  In its current state, I mostly use it to reel in high-threat targets out of a crowd.  The mobility aspect is realtively poor given the cost and how easy it is to get trucking in Parkour 2.0.  Here's a thought about a mechanical overhaul.  

Spoiler

Rip Line gets a two-phase trigger.  

Tap pulls Valk towards whatever is struck.  If she lands on an enemy, she deals an automatic melee attack for [air/wall/finishing attack] damage.  

Holding down Rip Line ensnares the target, but prevents Valkir from doing anything else.  Snared enemies are unable to move or attack as they struggle to get free.  The target can be ragdolled by flicking to the sides or up.  Releasing the power button yanks the target in to an automatic melee attack for [see above] damage.  

 

[KaneAshe]

36 minutes ago, Inmemoratus said:

So do most people find her boring or just a few people including you?

Well, most people don't actually play games with cheat codes believe it or not. Take that how you will.

Keep in mind though, I never said she was boring. I said I loved to play her but there is a serious issue blocking my enjoyment. Other people may or may not agree with me. I certainly won't be offended if my opinion is not the majority opinion... though I will definitely be very sad if she never gets the attention she deserves.

 

4 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said:

Ok, your forum profile says Febuary 16th as your join date.  If you started playing around that time, I'm going to have to assume you haven't actually seen "most of the content" in order to judge that she trivializes all of it (as you imply, with very few mods).  I'm not going to argue that she's not good - for certain things - but if you haven't seen high-end Corpus missions, or T4 Void missions, you really can't appreciate the position she's in. 

Let's avoid making assumptions about people. :)

Edited March 2, 2016 by KaneAshe

[Inmemoratus]

14 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

Well, most people don't actually play games with cheat codes believe it or not. Take that how you will.

I'll take it as you calling Valkyr OP. That's quite untrue. She's one of the least important frames for most mission types.

 

16 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

Keep in mind though, I never said she was boring. I said I loved to play her but there is a serious issue blocking my enjoyment. Other people may or may not agree with me. I certainly won't be offended if my opinion is not the majority opinion... though I will definitely be very sad if she never gets the attention she deserves.

You called her invulnerability boring. My point was that's a matter of opinion. How can you presume it's a popular opinion?

 

17 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

Let's avoid making assumptions about people. :)

But he's right. You're obviously new to the game. Does that make your opinion on balance less valid? Absolutely.

[AnarchyCarelessBear]

Id recommend a warcry Build instead its way funner and doesn't trivialise the game.

[EinheriarJudith]

50 minutes ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

As a person who enjoys Valkyr greatly, I can say that for a while, Hysteria's invincibility is fun. It feels nice to not take any damage. But add on that Life-Steal, and suddenly it becomes a bit too much. These days, I honestly don't activate Hysteria unless I need some quick health. I feel like invinc is completely unnecessary with that life-steal.

this is exactly what i do. Eternal War with duration and only hysteria when i need health unless im using a melee with life steal. it doesnt interrupt my combo counter.

[Hellmaker2004]

1 hour ago, KaneAshe said:

...I had to stop playing her because she was ruining the game for me.

I love her concept, I love her aesthetics, I love having so much armor... But I do not love being permanently invincible.

Then do not use Hysteria. With the new added melee weapon mods she can still have decent damage with a good melee weapon. Check what a lot of people are posting as a Warcry build and experiment around that.

 

Valkyr does not need a Nerf, she needs a huge buff and a rework on Hysteria. But she is not exclusive to this, a lot of Damage resistant frames need a rework.

 

2 hours ago, KaneAshe said:

.I want to have an objective to what I am doing, and a reason to use my characters strengths, and for my character to actually have weaknesses that I have to work around. (...No, being melee is not weakness. Not when there is absolutely no risk to your health regardless of how much time you have to spend traveling to an enemy. The reason why melee is traditionally considered a weakness is because Melee Exposes You To More Damage. ...Well, not for Valk. End of side-rant.)

Being melee only is a weakness, it is true she does not expose herself while in melee, but forced melee with short range on the melee weapons will limits the kill speed.

 

[Magneu]

20 minutes ago, Inmemoratus said:

I'll take it as you calling Valkyr OP. That's quite untrue. She's one of the least important frames for most mission types.

 

You called her invulnerability boring. My point was that's a matter of opinion. How can you presume it's a popular opinion?

 

But he's right. You're obviously new to the game. Does that make your opinion on balance less valid? Absolutely.

Following your logic, your opinion on balance is less valid than mine, which is less valid than the next guys. Where does it stop? The very first player, the alpha? The...Excalibur Prime. 

 

In any case, 100% invulnerability for over two hours (yes, quite easy with Valkyr) makes for stale gameplay. Risk/reward becomes irrelevant when you remove risk.

And if you argue nullifiers...add (Primed) Reach, problem solved. Their AI will have them sit there and shoot you with minimal movement, while you melee down the bubble.

 

Valkyr removes all risk from the game, and therefore is game-breaking. She needs to be re-balanced.

[KaneAshe]

1 hour ago, Inmemoratus said:

I'll take it as you calling Valkyr OP. That's quite untrue. She's one of the least important frames for most mission types.

You called her invulnerability boring. My point was that's a matter of opinion. How can you presume it's a popular opinion?

But he's right. You're obviously new to the game. Does that make your opinion on balance less valid? Absolutely.

I specifically stated in my first post that this thread is not about whether or not she is OP, so, don't take it as that? A cheat code is just something that eliminates one aspect of gameplay, in this case it eliminates a very important aspect called "Death".

I don't presume that it's a popular opinion, where did I say that? I can't speak for everyone on what is fun, I can only speak for myself and that is what I am doing here.

I'm really tired of people making these discussions about the individual rather than the facts of the discussion to be honest. "You're arrogant." "You're bad." "You're inexperienced." Meh.

Are you really contributing the the discussion by saying stuff like that?

Edited March 3, 2016 by KaneAshe

[EinheriarJudith]

20 minutes ago, Inmemoratus said:

I'll take it as you calling Valkyr OP. That's quite untrue. She's one of the least important frames for most mission types.

 

You called her invulnerability boring. My point was that's a matter of opinion. How can you presume it's a popular opinion?

 

But he's right. You're obviously new to the game. Does that make your opinion on balance less valid? Absolutely.

lets think about it for a min. Valkyr has the  HIGHEST armor of all warframes (warcry increases said armor value) and her ult has innate lifesteal and she can almost indefinitely stay in hysteria. its not a matter of op its a matter of trivializing the game in a manner you see in single player games. most of the people who say they like the invincibility is due to not wanting to die or the excuse "high level" this just means the cause needs to be changed then no one will care when its gone. if hysteria had a good 70% damage reduction the life steal you would see would be the same as being invincible. having both invincibility and lifesteal in one power is ridiculous by all meaning of the word.

[Inmemoratus]

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

Valkyr removes all risk from the game, and therefore is game-breaking. She needs to be re-balanced.

There is still a risk of failing the mission and she's mediocre at mitigating that risk in most mission types, especially non-solo.

[Inmemoratus]

2 hours ago, KaneAshe said:

I specifically stated in my first post that this thread is not about whether or not she is OP, so, don't take it as that? A cheat code is just something that eliminates one aspect of gameplay, in this case it eliminates a very important aspect called "Death".

I don't presume that it's a popular opinion, where did I say that? I can't speak for everyone on what is fun, I can only speak for myself and that is what I am doing here.

I'm really tired of people making these discussions about the individual rather than the facts of the discussion to be honest. "You're arrogant." "You're bad." "You're inexperienced." Meh.

Are you really contributing the the discussion by saying stuff like that?

I got you to admit that she isn't OP, and that finding her boring is just your opinion and that you don't speak for anyone else. I did what I came here to do.

[RexRgisIocus]

3 minutes ago, Inmemoratus said:

things

You do know that the only 3 game mods valk "might" have trouble with are Def, MD and Excavation right? Modes that any frame aside Frost (and maybe Limbo) has trouble with at mid-high levels seeing as the objective isn't surviving but defending.

 

Does that make her balanced? not in my opinion. Its fine if one single frame trivializes 1 game mode or 2  but all of them but 3? that just wrong.

 

5 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

I had been thinking of making a Valkyr thread similar to this, only with a lot of proposed changes alongside it, but ultimately decided against it. So thank you for making it. This is pretty much exactly what I've been thinking as someone who mained Valkyr until 17.5 came out.

That being said, talking about a problem and not offering solutions isn't productive. In the spirit of that notion, here are my proposed solutions for making Valkyr the demonic flurry of claws/personification of rage that she is supposed to be.

 

Hidden Content

 

You sir, are the Real MVP.

inb4 the "try surviving vs level 200 enemies without godmode" crowd

[EinheriarJudith]

5 minutes ago, Inmemoratus said:

I'll take it as you calling Valkyr OP. That's quite untrue. She's one of the least important frames for most mission types.

You called her invulnerability boring. My point was that's a matter of opinion. How can you presume it's a popular opinion?

none of these things even have anything to do with the OP outside you trying to figure out how he/she had come to the decision of wether its popular opinion or not. 

There is still a risk of failing the mission and she's mediocre at mitigating that risk in most mission types, especially non-solo.

where did he even mention anywhere about mission success or failure? when you remove death from the game wether or not you succeed or fail. you have trivialized gameplay.

 

[Gurpgork]

Whether or not Valkyr is actually overpowered, but she's not very well designed. She has the highest armor in the game, a reliable way to boost her armor, an excellent passive boost to knockdown recovery speed... And an ultimate that renders every single one of those positive attributes completely irrelevant. A Warframe's abilities should work together, not overwrite each other. 

13 minutes ago, RexRgisIocus said:

inb4 the "try surviving vs level 200 enemies without godmode" crowd

I don't think anybody genuinely believes that Valkyr would have a hard time surviving without god mode, particularly not after the introduction of Shadow Step (which in conjunction with Valkyr's incredible defensive stats pretty much achieves god mode anyway). The problem with removing Valkyr's god mode is that it runs the risk of completely taking away her place in the game. And in a metagame largely dominated by Blessing Trinity, Frost, and whatever other ways to give an entire party tremendous survivability, that's a very legitimate concern. I tried really hard to propose changes that would separate her from Chroma. The idea I went with is that Chroma would be tankier, more powerful, and have the advantage of range, but Valkyr would have fantastic mobility and better crowd control. Maybe that would be enough of a push to give her a place in the game: A faster, more offensively oriented alternative to Chroma that comes earlier in the game.

[KaneAshe]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

Whether or not Valkyr is actually overpowered, she's not very well designed. She has the highest armor in the game, a reliable way to boost her armor, an excellent passive boost to knockdown recovery speed... And an ultimate that renders every single one of those positive attributes completely irrelevant. A Warframe's abilities should work together, not overwrite each other. 

This pretty much encapsulates why it's not purely just a matter of opinion that her kit begs for changes, regardless of what one thinks about perma-invulnerability.

5 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

im about to blow your mind right now. what if hysteria feared targets in a 15m radius on activation? what do you think? i mean she does let out a loud shout

If it was like the heat proc where they cower in place while feared that'd be great. Thematically fear goes really well with berserkers, but on the other hand chasing down fleeing enemies is a pain lol, so if it made em run away that'd not be so fun.

[EinheriarJudith]

55 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

If it was like the heat proc where they cower in place while feared that'd be great. Thematically fear goes really well with berserkers, but on the other hand chasing down fleeing enemies is a pain lol, so if it made em run away that'd not be so fun.

New CC "Cower" (cower lasts 10s)

Edited March 3, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[CriticalFumble]

2 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Whether or not Valkyr is actually overpowered, but she's not very well designed. She has the highest armor in the game, a reliable way to boost her armor, an excellent passive boost to knockdown recovery speed... And an ultimate that renders every single one of those positive attributes completely irrelevant. A Warframe's abilities should work together, not overwrite each other. 

I don't think anybody genuinely believes that Valkyr would have a hard time surviving without god mode, particularly not after the introduction of Shadow Step (which in conjunction with Valkyr's incredible defensive stats pretty much achieves god mode anyway). The problem with removing Valkyr's god mode is that it runs the risk of completely taking away her place in the game. And in a metagame largely dominated by Blessing Trinity, Frost, and whatever other ways to give an entire party tremendous survivability, that's a very legitimate concern. I tried really hard to propose changes that would separate her from Chroma. The idea I went with is that Chroma would be tankier, more powerful, and have the advantage of range, but Valkyr would have fantastic mobility and better crowd control. Maybe that would be enough of a push to give her a place in the game: A faster, more offensively oriented alternative to Chroma that comes earlier in the game.

What if you gave hysteria a threat multiplier and a short range damage shift aura?  This would make her more valuable in a team situation beyond the reviving anchor member.  Also creates a situation where to use hysteria you're incentivized to act hysterical and go all River Tam on those Reav- I mean Grineer. 

I'm not certain that changing the claws themselves is a good idea, because what you're getting there is incredible single target (or at least tiny AoE) potential.