"IF" Valkyr must be reworked again, give her the Inaros treatment.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

More or less title. There are plenty of threads already calling for reworks and nerfs to her, so I figured that while I like her as is, might as well put in my two cents of what could be done.

Firstly, lets buff her base hp, say 275 (half Inaros' 550) would give her a massive hp pool to sit behind her armor. Also give her innate 1% life steal on all melee.

Next, ripline... Not too sure on this but here is a thought. When tapped, in a reasonable cone multiple lines will fire, grabbing and pull several mobs to her feet, leaving them open to ground finishers. Now if it is held instead, a single line will be launched, and attach to whatever it is aimed at and pull Valk towards the target. Good mix of improving its use while keeping what a few people like about the ability, also keep the cost/damage reduction/increase on multi-use.

Moving on, Warcry, leave it mostly as is, but have it affect Valkyr's total modded armor and have allies simply receive her current armor rating instead of a multiplier on their own (generally garbage in comparison) armor. Add team synergy as well as promotes use of warcry even for those who run steel fiber and get fairly lack luster returns from the armor buff currently.

Paralysis...is a fairly decent ability, but is not without issues. First an foremost, make the ability BREAK ANY ANIMATIONS the mobs perform. Its greatest downfall is nearly any mob animations played while its cast will cancel the stun. After that, increase range by 50% and duration of stun by 2-3x.

Hysteria, remove god mode, substitute a current (after mods) hp and armor buff of say 2x or more. Between her claws getting 6% (5% base + 1% passive) life steal and the hp and armor buff she would be extremely durable yet still quite killable.

That's all for now, gotta get to work, constructive feedback is appreciated.

[Ulgorn]

She is good on her current state, no needs to change.

[Misgenesis]

If the invincibility has to go then yeah, upping her base HP is the way to go.

But isnt 1% lifesteal a bit too little?

[D0DECA]

23 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

If the invincibility has to go then yeah, upping her base HP is the way to go.

It is one way. There have been some threads dicussing the pros and cons of higher base HP and in my opinon; on its own the impact is lacking.

@DarcnyssWolfe I appreciate your input on this topic and I think you have good ideas. I don't think you schould have started another Thread for it though. As you allready noted, there are some active Threads about Valkyr and possible changes to her and I think your input in form of a repy would have been appreciated by some others over there too.

[Corfold]

I love Valkyr, she is my baby, it is what drew me into Warframe when I first started as she had just come out when I did (I think...) and upon learning of her made Rhino obsolete in the beginning. Nothing I love more than being a Berserker.

I like your idea on the Ripline, but I have to say you should have that reversed. Tapping should be the single line, and charging should be multiple lines. The problem with how you have it that I see a problem with using ripline to move around the map in quick succession. If you have multiple lines as a tap and you are trying to save yourself from an embarrassing fall i would think it would either send you to whichever line touched a surface first or slingshot you in a sense.

Warcry I have no opinions about as I just use it for myself to gain the attack speed boost and any allies who are also using melee.

Paralysis...+1 got no comments either.

Hysteria however is the biggest one, working on that should take some careful consideration. The one thing I love about it is the fact that it has Invincibility combined with Gersemi skin and then I just play infested survival and see how long I can go before they stop dropping a constant supply of energy orbs (FUN!) I'm also not seeing what is the big deal with her Invincibility unless its during the PvP (which I never play). I could say during PvP how Hysteria would be a huge problem. At the same time could be a fun game of Cat and Mouse, see how long you can last against a rage induced Valkyr. I am not the best person to probably discuss this topic as I just enjoy running around and rending people apart but I don't want to see Hysteria changed if it is going to completely break off that feeling of "I am your Doom" I can get so absorbed in the mayhem and chaos of plowing through a thicket of enemies and just leaving a bloody pool behind me I don't want to stop a moment and realize I need health badly and have to run away from the damnation I was causing thus ruining what time limit I have on Hysteria (or having to use energy to fuel Hysteria in the case of Gersemi when I could use that for other abilities while in hysteria) That is simply my complaint about changing Hysteria and I hope some form of middle ground is reached between these dare I say arguments with her.

[TwiceDead]

1 hour ago, Misgenesis said:

If the invincibility has to go then yeah, upping her base HP is the way to go.

But isnt 1% lifesteal a bit too little?

1% of 10000 is still 100. Valkyr hits like a truck, pair that with the asinine attack-speed from Warcry and you won't have any problems with 1% life-steal. 

If Valkyrs base HP is upped to 275 she'll have 1100 at rank 30, with Vitality that becomes 2310 HP, which becomes 6930 Effective HP thanks to Valkyrs base armor value of 600 alone, basically making 1 point of health worth 3. 

Then comes Steel Fiber, upping her armor to 1260, which in turn skyrockets her EHP to a whopping 12000 (Valkyr can already reach this amount with Warcry, though, I am not even going to bother taking that into consideration). That's more than Inaros, who currently get 11300 using the same mod-combo, but while Inaros may have a higher health-pool, every point of health is worth less than Valkyrs health thanks to her higher armor. 

Trust me, 1% life-steal will be sufficient when every single 1 point of health you drain is basically worth 5 times that amount. 

 

All that said, the effectiveness of Armor depends on who you are fighting, so while this math may be solid, the numbers can be deceiving since some enemies are stronger towards armor than others.

Edited March 10, 2016 by TwiceDead
Typos

[(XBOX)CitrusTheNile]

If there are level 80 armor augmented juggernauts in this game, there needs to be a god mode warframe like Valkyr. The other day It took me 30 minutes during a sortie to kill a level 80 armor augmented juggernaut. If it wasn't for me being there we would have failed the mission considering I stacked up to 100,000 damage from the juggernaut. In other words, it instantaneously killed anyone else it aggroed to. Leave Valkyr as is. 

Edited March 10, 2016 by (XB1)CitrusTheNile
spelling

[D0DECA]

1 hour ago, (XB1)CitrusTheNile said:

If there are level 80 armor augmented juggernauts in this game, there needs to be a god mode warframe like Valkyr. The other day It took me 30 minutes during a sortie to kill a level 80 armor augmented juggernaut. If it wasn't for me being there we would have failed the mission considering I stacked up to 100,000 damage from the juggernaut. In other words, it instantaneously killed anyone else it aggroed to. Leave Valkyr as is. 

I've seen that argument brought up multiple times and I'll just take the liberty to repeat what others said before me: That is plainly incorrect. Juggernauts are designed to be an avoidable threat and should only be drawn out if the squad is confident in dealing with it. Furthermore, there are some pretty effective ways to deal with a juggernaut, none of wich require 30 minutes of mindlesly grinding it down.

So you and your squad a) did not stop and consider if you can deal with this threat when it was announced and b) were insufficiently equipped to handle such threat in a reasonable amount of time. That makes your play the reason for your inconvenience, not the difficulty of the juggernaut and does in no way vindicate valkyr's invurnerability.

Edited March 10, 2016 by DNG0
additions / corrections

[(XBOX)CitrusTheNile]

31 minutes ago, DNG0 said:

I've seen that argument brought up multiple times and I'll just take the liberty to repeat what others said before me: That is plainly incorrect. Juggernauts are designed to be an avoidable threat and should only be drawn out if the squad is confident in dealing with it. Furthermore, there are some pretty effective ways to deal with a juggernaut, none of wich require 30 minutes of mindlesly grinding it down.

So you and your squad a) did not stop and consider if you can deal with this threat when it was announced and b) were insufficiently equipped to handle such threat in a reasonable amount of time. That makes your play the reason for your inconvenience, not the difficulty of the juggernaut and does in no way vindicate valkyr's invurnerability.

I figured someone would counter with this argument. I cannot control what the other people in my squad do. I can tell them in chat to stop killing, I can stop killing, but I cannot force them to put down their controllers/hands to stop them from killing enemies. Every group I was in that day during the augmented armor exterminate, at least one person would continue killing to bring out the juggernaut. 

My play is the reason that I was able to pick up the slack of people who don't know how to communicate and are mindless Warframe players and finally finish the mission. I was tired of leaving every squad because every time I played they would bring out the juggernaut. 

[D0DECA]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)CitrusTheNile said:

Every group I was in that day during the augmented armor exterminate, at least one person would continue killing to bring out the juggernaut.

I am sorry for that and I know how it is. I can just tell you, it helps to set up a group beforehand and drill in the threat a juggernaut poses. Never the less, there are options that can help beating a juggernaut much quicker. Valkyr's invurnerability is not a valid answer to supposedly hard content and shouldn't be an auto-pick for those who have trouble dealing with it. If you want to discuss bad game design or missing features that's fine by me but do not try to defend a concept that supports the underlying problem.

Edited March 10, 2016 by DNG0

[Hellmaker2004]

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)CitrusTheNile said:

I figured someone would counter with this argument. I cannot control what the other people in my squad do. I can tell them in chat to stop killing, I can stop killing, but I cannot force them to put down their controllers/hands to stop them from killing enemies. Every group I was in that day during the augmented armor exterminate, at least one person would continue killing to bring out the juggernaut. 

My play is the reason that I was able to pick up the slack of people who don't know how to communicate and are mindless Warframe players and finally finish the mission. I was tired of leaving every squad because every time I played they would bring out the juggernaut. 

Having to fight Juggernaut in Sortier is not a valid reason for a frame to have invulnerability.

 

Juggernaut is the Infested "Alert" system, if you fail to recognize his roar the hostiles still have a orange aura to warn people that they need to play hide and seek failing to do so should be punishing.

And should that still not be enough to scare Warframes away from spawning the Juggernaut he then have very clear visual animation so players can dodge his attacks.

High level infested are not balanced around forcing one frame to be in the party.

 

But if we return to the topic. Valkyre do need a complete overhaul to her toolkit if they are to remove her invulnerability during Hysteria.

7 hours ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

More or less title. There are plenty of threads already calling for reworks and nerfs to her, so I figured that while I like her as is, might as well put in my two cents of what could be done.

Firstly, lets buff her base hp, say 275 (half Inaros' 550) would give her a massive hp pool to sit behind her armor. Also give her innate 1% life steal on all melee.

Next, ripline... Not too sure on this but here is a thought. When tapped, in a reasonable cone multiple lines will fire, grabbing and pull several mobs to her feet, leaving them open to ground finishers. Now if it is held instead, a single line will be launched, and attach to whatever it is aimed at and pull Valk towards the target. Good mix of improving its use while keeping what a few people like about the ability, also keep the cost/damage reduction/increase on multi-use.

Moving on, Warcry, leave it mostly as is, but have it affect Valkyr's total modded armor and have allies simply receive her current armor rating instead of a multiplier on their own (generally garbage in comparison) armor. Add team synergy as well as promotes use of warcry even for those who run steel fiber and get fairly lack luster returns from the armor buff currently.

Paralysis...is a fairly decent ability, but is not without issues. First an foremost, make the ability BREAK ANY ANIMATIONS the mobs perform. Its greatest downfall is nearly any mob animations played while its cast will cancel the stun. After that, increase range by 50% and duration of stun by 2-3x.

Hysteria, remove god mode, substitute a current (after mods) hp and armor buff of say 2x or more. Between her claws getting 6% (5% base + 1% passive) life steal and the hp and armor buff she would be extremely durable yet still quite killable.

That's all for now, gotta get to work, constructive feedback is appreciated.

Ripline should perhaps work as someone earlier said (Corfold) in the opposite way, tapping ability button would create one ripline for traversal or holding it to grab several mobs in front of her.

 

Warcry is indeed in need of some sort of team wide buff having it grant armor depending on Valkyre's armor rather than there own is a great way to do so. It should perhaps be recast able for Valkyre even if she has the buff up to make it easier to spread and to allow her to utilize the debuff effect as well.

Paralysis only need one thing. To work on foes that are doing a animation maybe a range increase but the stun does not need to be longer, it is a fairly cheap ability and it should not stun for a long time.

Hysteria is a really hard nut to crack, they do need to remove the invulnerability but at the same time if she keeps the melee claws only restriction it still need to offer some sort of protection, your ideas on how to change it sounds solid and decent however.

[Tzolkat]

7 hours ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

More or less title. There are plenty of threads already calling for reworks and nerfs to her, so I figured that while I like her as is, might as well put in my two cents of what could be done.

Firstly, lets buff her base hp, say 275 (half Inaros' 550) would give her a massive hp pool to sit behind her armor. Also give her innate 1% life steal on all melee.

Next, ripline... Not too sure on this but here is a thought. When tapped, in a reasonable cone multiple lines will fire, grabbing and pull several mobs to her feet, leaving them open to ground finishers. Now if it is held instead, a single line will be launched, and attach to whatever it is aimed at and pull Valk towards the target. Good mix of improving its use while keeping what a few people like about the ability, also keep the cost/damage reduction/increase on multi-use.

Moving on, Warcry, leave it mostly as is, but have it affect Valkyr's total modded armor and have allies simply receive her current armor rating instead of a multiplier on their own (generally garbage in comparison) armor. Add team synergy as well as promotes use of warcry even for those who run steel fiber and get fairly lack luster returns from the armor buff currently.

Paralysis...is a fairly decent ability, but is not without issues. First an foremost, make the ability BREAK ANY ANIMATIONS the mobs perform. Its greatest downfall is nearly any mob animations played while its cast will cancel the stun. After that, increase range by 50% and duration of stun by 2-3x.

Hysteria, remove god mode, substitute a current (after mods) hp and armor buff of say 2x or more. Between her claws getting 6% (5% base + 1% passive) life steal and the hp and armor buff she would be extremely durable yet still quite killable.

That's all for now, gotta get to work, constructive feedback is appreciated.

More HP. This sounds okay.

Ripline. I like the idea, but like another person who commented, I would reverse the controls, so that holding 1 launched multiple riplines at enemies and tapping grabbed the environment with a single one.

I have nothing to add for warcry. That concept sounds good.

Paralysis I would replace, mostly because it requires large shields to do even nominal damage and most enemies don't even get staggered by it. I would replace it with a taunt-like effect, drawing the aggro of every enemy within the ability's AoE. It would be great for team synergy in defense-heavy mission types.

I disagree with your proposed changes to hysteria. 2x+ armor and passive/active lifesteal won't mean anything late-game if she can be killed before she even has a chance to get within range of her attackers. Then, assuming she can get in range, nullifiers, ancient disruptors, and so on can counter her even as she is now. They will utterly wreck her after the proposed changes. Finally, assuming she doesn't get one-shotted from across the map and a nullifier doesn't yank her out of hysteria with only 20HP left, and given a steady stream of enemies that she can actually counter effectively with only claws, she will theoretically steal more health than she loses. This is basically invulnerability. Only now, her health can fluctuate, which with Rage means more energy for hysteria. It becomes theoretically infinite in duration unless you turn off the effects of Rage while channeling hysteria.

And if that were to be the case.. well, you can either take damage and get energy, or take damage and spend energy, with a chance to get some HP back IF you can get close enough to claw them to death. Add life strike to your melee weapon and the only reason you'd ever want to use hysteria is for an armor buff, and even then, short-range melee only is a high price to pay for it. Other frames can reach that kind of damage reduction and still use their guns.. more likely than not people just won't use Valkyr anymore, and we'll be back to seeing Rhinos everywhere.

To conclude, I think the rest of Valkyr's kit should get some polish, but leave hysteria's 'god-mode' alone and focus on more passive ways to mitigate its abuse by afk'ers, which I'm going to assume is why people want to nerf hysteria. Because otherwise their objections look more like thinly veiled attempts to ruin other players' fun, since hysteria doesn't make Valkyr damage-immune in any PvP gameplay. It only does so (with numerous pitfalls and caveats) in PvE.

[hammerheathen]

I love valkyr, but I get annoyed when people say she is too tough when we also have Chroma and now Inaros. That said, now that the mummy is out of the bag, I wouldn't mind a rework that would allow her to continue to tank. I think making her even more like a berserker would be great.

[Inmemoratus]

Valkyr without invulnerability wouldn't scale. There would be a level where she just couldn't survive at some point. Inaros does scale because the more enemies there are, the more health he can steal via scarabs and those enemies get locked down so they can't even attack him. Also he's invulnerable during Devour.

Inaros isn't really more vulnerable than Valkyr considering all those things, even at high levels.

Just because your healthbar moves doesn't mean you can die.

[-Temp0-]

Quote

Hysteria, remove god mode, substitute a current (after mods) hp and armor buff of say 2x or more. Between her claws getting 6% (5% base + 1% passive) life steal and the hp and armor buff she would be extremely durable yet still quite killable.

Chroma 2.0? Do not need. Do not want to be procced to death by some random ballista on high levels while being forced to melee-only playstyle (which I like but under other conditions), already had nuff fun with it with Chroma - beautiful frame and interesting abilities, but pain in the ... to use, especially solo. Her 4 is fine the way it is. Especially sine those blasted leeches can affect that ability. She's the only one frame that can't receive damage in her 4 (but still can be stripped of her invincibility by the nullifiers or eximi leeches and denial bursas as well as Stalker), why the heck would anyone want to turn her in another Chroma or Wukong is beyond me. 

[Racter]

Every frame played well is effectively invincible at the levels DE balances for. Even at Sortie/Raid levels, if you're playing well you should only really die to semi RNG 1 shots, and that was before focus offered everyone permainvis. Her invincibility isn't a problem.

 

The Inaros comparison above was also really accurate, I took him almost 2hrs into a T3S the night he came out with zero forma (wasn't even 30 when we started, empty mod slots and all) and had absolutely no problem surviving at that level.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Racter0325