Lets Fix: Mag Edition (Updated With 8.3)

[BBYipho]

The only problem with Shield Polarize is that it doesn't really give/remove enough shields to be great. I also don't know exact numbers on this. I should test by letting a friend purposely get beat up or slapped by an Ancient Disrupter to see exact numbers with and without focus.

 

Also thanks for bumping this up. I always try to avoid double posting. Probably why I keep linking my thread whenever I jump in a topic about Mag.

Edited June 19, 2013 by BBYiffo

[Loswaith]

Not a bad idea to work with.

 

Pull: Personaly I like pull and use it allot.  One trick we use within out guild is devistating to enemies, is that you get Mag to pull it and group stab them while they are down.  For a basic skill I like how it works, its just a tad costly for what you want it to do.  Having it cost only 10 or 15 energy to use would make it much more viable for the effect.   Much like super jump for excalibur at 10 energy its fun and great to use if it was more then it would be pointless.  It would be nice if you could use it to move exploding barrels too.

 

Alternativly have it slam enemies into a nearby surface doing damage (ie. like a wall or crate or similar), though i think that would be better for an alternate power.  Though its not that useful to allies in trouble that way.

 

Shield Polarise: Personaly I think an AoE effect would be better (say 5/7/10/15 meters, increase by strech), and any allies in that range get a shield boost any enemies get a shield decrease.  As it goes the ammount it does isn't too bad, though it could also be made like Trinity's blessing in that it restores or removes 100% of the shield (though that may be too powerful against bosses, so cap of 1000 shield points could cover most warframes and not be too huge on boss shields).  A bonus to that is its another warframe with direct group application and assistance. 

 

Bullet Attractor: While I dont have any solid ideas, I like the idea that it directs shots to the head.  While not always the best point to attack its usualy a solid location for most enemies so makes sence to direct damage to that point, and needs less code to account for the different soft-spots or even the dynamic soft-spot of Banshee's Sonar.  Though taking the most suceptable point for all damage based around it could work too, but again more processing to achieve it.

 

Crush:  Now crush always seemed odd to me, that it was effected by armour, and that your making bones magnetic.  It would make far more sence if it did damage inversly based on the armour of a target.  IE. The more armour the target has the more damage they take as the armour is crushed into their squish bits.  This would mean crush isnt as useful against the rank and file minions with little armour (greneer aside), but deadly to heavily armoured ones, as allot of powers are good against rank and file but rarely all that effective against the heavier units.  Mag basically crushes the armour like a tin can about the opponent.   It fits much more with the theme of magnatism (whether physically accurate or not).

[Azamagon]

My thoughts on Mag's abilities:

 

Pull - Make it deal a lot more damage to the target (AP-type damage). Think of it as doing a "mini"-crush, and then pulling it towards you. Another idea for it would be that you could aim at an enemy target, HOLD the power button down, then you have locked onto the target. Now you are free to aim wherever you want. When you then release the power's button, the enemy is dragged in that direction! Then, add to it that any enemy your target collides with is ALSO knocked down and dealt some minor collision damage.

Reducing its cost to 10 or 15 energy would also be nice

 

Cluster - An ability that replaces Shield Polarize (Shield Polarize is merged with Bullet Attractor!). This ability could do what some others have suggested (And frankly, sounds awesome!): Aim at a point (be it wall, floor, friend, enemy, doesn't matter), use the power, then all enemies within a quite big range is dragged towards this point, landing in a "knocked down" status of course. Any collision with terrain or other enemy etc= Collision damage

A cost anywhere between 25 and 50 energy depending on AoE-size, collision damage etc.

 

Note: Immediate synergy between Pull and Cluster appears: Cluster targets together, then use one of them to drag it through the crowd for huge collision damages. I call it the bowling-combo :D Cluster = Make a gathering of bowling pins, Pull = Make someone a bowling ball!

Cluster also synergizes with Bullet Attractor (more likely ranged enemies will hit the bubble due to proximity) and Crush (AoE carnage oh yeah!), so i see no reason NOT to get this skill for Mag...

 

Bullet Attractor - (Renamed to Magnetic Sphere or something?) Here's a bunch of ideas on how to buff the skill (Not all buffs are needed but... well, most of them >_>):

 

General use:

* Cost reduced to 50 energy

* Cast the current offensive version on enemies by simply aiming at them and use the power

* Cast a defensive version on allies/pods by simply aiming at them and use the power

* Cast the defensive version on yourself by simply holding the power's button down (where you aim doesn't matter)

 

Offensive use (meaning, when used on enemies):

* Redirects projectiles etc, as normal, but with some form of buff to it. Like, make it always go to the target's weakest spot (Sonar synergy...)

* After the projectile hits the bubbled target (this is just an idea), maybe further redirect said projectile to a random nearby (if within range) enemy target for reduced damage (50%?). This makes it a bit of an aoe-ability too, and thus more generally useful.

* Also blasts the target's shield, similar to Shield Polarize! Maybe with a buff to it too (like, shield degeneration added)

* Any enemy that remains in the bubble (including the main target) is slowed down a little (like 30%?). Only affects movement speed, not attack speed (to differ from the "cold" effect)

 

Defensive use (meaning, when used on allies/yourself):

* Enemy projectiles are deflected from the friendly target.

* After the projectile is deflected (this is just an idea), if an enemy is within a certain range of the shot-at-friendly-unit, the shot is redirected to this nearby unit with reduced damage (50%?)! This makes it a bit of an aoe-ability too, and thus more generally useful.

* Also boosts the target's shield, similar to Shield Polarize! Maybe with a buff to it too (Increased shield regen)

* Any friendly unit that remains in the bubble (including the main target) is sped up a little (max 15%?).  Only affects movement speed, not attack speed (to differ from the "cold" effect)

* Boosts the target's ranged attack damage (increased projectile velocity too?) by a small amount (max 20%?)

 

Crush - A bunch of things is needed:

* Ignore armor values (seriously, ALL skills for ALL Warframes should ignore armor values, otherwise they scale horribly), maybe also make it deal AP-type damage (Makes more sense, as enemies that are more susceptible to the AP-element are usually the most heavy and most armored units)

* Enemies enterring the area after the cast should also get affected, although the damage they suffer should be lower (time spent in the Crush should correlate quite linearly to the damage suffered, with a minimum damage limit)

* After enemies have been crushed, they should be suffering (even if just briefly) from some form of disabling effect when they land. Being knocked down probably is the easiest disable to implement. Because the enemy getting right up after the effect frankly just looks silly (And those Disruptors hitting you instantly after the effect is just seriously aggravating, grrr -_-)

 

There, those were my thoughts on how to buff/rework Mag! :)

Edited June 19, 2013 by Azamagon

[abaddun]

 

Also it seems people really think of Mag as some anti-gravity thing. I just want to stick to what she is. A Magnet.

Actually Gravity is a magnet. Lets keep the magnetic-gravity in line though. Put some thought into it.

 

 

 

Gravity and magnetism are two completely different forces, so no, mag cannot manipulate gravity. It still angers me when i see her lift targets with crush, as only objects able to form a current though them(free electrons) are capable of becoming magnetised, that rules out the idea of imploding targets, and magnatism is very specific on attraction and repulsion, so no levitation unless the floor has become magnetised for the same polarity to the levitating minion, enacting a repulsive force only slightly greater then mg. 

I would suggest making shield polarise a percentage value, with levels of 20%  40%  60%   80% in a AOE centered around the location covered by the cross-hair. 

Edited June 20, 2013 by abaddun

[Hameln]

bump

[BBYipho]

Gravity and magnetism are two completely different forces, so no, mag cannot manipulate gravity. It still angers me when i see her lift targets with crush, as only objects able to form a current thought hem(dree elcetrons) are capable of becoming magnetised, that rules out the idea of imploding targets, and magnatism is very specific on attraction and repulsion, so no levitation unless the floor has become magnetised for the same polarity to the levitating minion, enacting a repulsive force only slightly greater then mg. 

I would suggest making shield polarise a percentage value, with levels of 20%  40%  60%   80% in a AOE centered around the location covered by the cross-hair. 

 

And you made me check my research again. Seems you're right Gravity and Magnetism are different. Removed that line.

 

At the top of page 2 I mention it would make much more sense to Crush, crush them against the magnetized ground.

 

 

 

 

Also I'm in the middle of planning to make my opening post more readable to some people without scaring them away.

Edited June 19, 2013 by BBYiffo

[Mr.Popo]

Gravity and magnetism are two completely different forces, so no, mag cannot manipulate gravity. It still angers me when i see her lift targets with crush, as only objects able to form a current thought hem(dree elcetrons) are capable of becoming magnetised, that rules out the idea of imploding targets, and magnatism is very specific on attraction and repulsion, so no levitation unless the floor has become magnetised for the same polarity to the levitating minion, enacting a repulsive force only slightly greater then mg. 

I would suggest making shield polarise a percentage value, with levels of 20%  40%  60%   80% in a AOE centered around the location covered by the cross-hair. 

 

This is not a game where you should be looking for scientific accuracy. You will only find pain.

 

On a separate note, Livestream confirmed Mag is getting a rework, so we have that to look forward to!

[BBYipho]

This is not a game where you should be looking for scientific accuracy. You will only find pain.

 

On a separate note, Livestream confirmed Mag is getting a rework, so we have that to look forward to!

 

The problem is SciFi is mainly taking current science and making it a bit rediculous. Though mainly staying on the topic.

 

I'm also watching the stream in Past Broadcasts since I missed it. Today I woke up from my Warframe Nexus spazzing from the two 12 hour alerts.

[Mazikeen]

Crush:  Now crush always seemed odd to me, that it was effected by armour, and that your making bones magnetic.  It would make far more sence if it did damage inversly based on the armour of a target.  IE. The more armour the target has the more damage they take as the armour is crushed into their squish bits.  This would mean crush isnt as useful against the rank and file minions with little armour (greneer aside), but deadly to heavily armoured ones, as allot of powers are good against rank and file but rarely all that effective against the heavier units.  Mag basically crushes the armour like a tin can about the opponent.   It fits much more with the theme of magnatism (whether physically accurate or not).

 

I really like that idea, and it would be a really interesting change because it would work differently from all the "cloned abilities" (deal X damage to everything, reduced by Y).

 

But I'm afraid it would turn Mag into a "Volt but for Grineers instead of Corpus"...

[BBYipho]

I really like that idea, and it would be a really interesting change because it would work differently from all the "cloned abilities" (deal X damage to everything, reduced by Y).

 

But I'm afraid it would turn Mag into a "Volt but for Grineers instead of Corpus"...

 

Or the ability can be just for crushing large enemies into the ground for a longer lock and damage duration on larger/elite enemies.

[Cheeseblade]

After having read most of these posts ill say what I can.

 

I really just dont like pull, its too difficult to use and too easy to screw up, (no i meant to pull ally not that disruptor!).

 

What mag could make good use of is an escape. if pull was instead an AoE knockback/stun and some damage it would be much better. Mag desperately needs a second AOE damage ability that doesnt cost her a massive amount of energy and because she is not inherently tanky
 

 

My idea for polarize would be change it to a more of transfer power. Basically when casted it would drain shield from the target and distribute that shield to allies around and including mag. this way it encourages squad cohesion. And to add some interesting playstyle/scaling have the energy cost be a % cost instead of flat cost and adjust power accordingly with a flat minimum. this adds some diversity to power usage playstyle and rewards mag for scavenging energy during prolonged fights.

 

Bullet attractor is fine as long as it directs bullets to sensitive locations.

 

Crush is fine. Tweak as needed to adjust power levels.

[Mr.Popo]

The problem is SciFi is mainly taking current science and making it a bit rediculous. Though mainly staying on the topic.

 

I'm also watching the stream in Past Broadcasts since I missed it. Today I woke up from my Warframe Nexus spazzing from the two 12 hour alerts.

 

I think Warframe is very much a future fantasy rather than scifi, but that's just my impression.

 

As has been said, Pull is horribly situational and finicky when the situation arises. Steve was of the opinion that the new pull is really cool, so I hope we see that soon. As a long time Mag user I'm pretty excited to see the updates.

 

On the other powers, I also think Bullet Attractor should direct towards the weakest point, accounting for Banshee Sonar too. 

Shield Polarise should be an area of effect shield boost for allies and shield drain. It should also buff friendly shields when activated too. 

Crush should ignore armour. 

 

A lot of that has been said already but I simply wish to reinforce that with which I agree. 

[Loswaith]

I really like that idea, and it would be a really interesting change because it would work differently from all the "cloned abilities" (deal X damage to everything, reduced by Y).

 

But I'm afraid it would turn Mag into a "Volt but for Grineers instead of Corpus"...

While it is a concern, the irony currently is that crush is most useful againt the corpus because they have the lowest armour, effectivly doubling up on the nieche with volt, while grineer that are encased in metal/plasteel can laugh it off.  By having it inversly affected by armour, it means that anchients and grineer are more affected by it while corpus and the lighter infested less so. 

 

Even if it did end up as a volt for grineer it would balance out the system having 3 frames that are good against a certain faction, ie Volt vs Corpus, Ember vs Infested and then Mag vs Grineer, which would put it at a good position for later tweaking, and make it allot more intuative for new players.  Currently no frame is specifically designed for countering grineer.

 

Ultimatly we will have to see how DE handled Mag when she is updated.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Loswaith

[BBYipho]

Before we get further into discussion fixes we need to see the skill buffs/redone DE has said they've done in their test.

 

We'll see if they fix the problem or not. I sure do hope they checked with the community. Would be a shame if this acted like the first buff they tried for Ember. Where nothing really changed at all...

 

(Ember got redone, Rebuff, Rebuff again, till she's where she is now.)

[BBYipho]

Everything above this post was Pre Update 8.3 and thread cleaning.

 

Revival bump.

 

Everything updated to my findings in Update 8.3

 

Feel free to try changing my mind about the current update to Mag. I've been feeling down since it happen...

 

So come on people and give me more hope on playing Mag!

Edited July 5, 2013 by BBYiffo

[Kasamoto]

Not working on other players anymore?

I know this was often cause for new f2players having their chuckle out of every situation, but the pull affecting other players has often saved the day for me. Especially when others were stuck or floaty.

[BBYipho]

I've also been using it on players who were stuck in the falling down off cliffs constantly bug. However now I can't save them. They still need to fix that issue.

[109leonidas]

I do want the old targeting for pull and be able to pull team mates. But otherwise I like the new changes

[BBYipho]

I actually like singeling out certain targets when I use it offensively. I can understand some if some people think it's a good idea to yank more, I however don't exactly like it. The new version of Pull will get you killed very easily in end game planets.

 

Let me give a comparison.

 

Old Pull:

We're in Pluto fighting Corpus. You use Pull to yank a Shield Osprey to remove it's shields off the enemy. Normal Corpus do not have any natural shields and become easier to deal with.

 

New Pull:

We're in Pluto fighting Corpus. If you used pull you yank the whole squad to you with the Shield Osprey. The Shield Osprey shrugs off the damage of the new Pull. All the Corpus you pulled to you are now close enough to not miss you when they shoot. They are also still protected by the shield Osprey. You're going to die really fast now.

 

Now you're probably thinking, "Why not use Shield Polarize?" The Osprey would shrug off the damage in Pluto. The skill only can kill S.Ospreys in earlier levels. The amount of shields removed wouldn't even completely remove the enemy shields either. If you're in range of Shield Polarize you'll only be giving yourself 300-390ish shields. Which translates 2 or so more seconds before dying.

[Sideway]

I strongly disagree with you, OP. Simple stat or mechanic tweak of her current skills will give nothing. Mag is the "Useless Tier" for a reason and she will stay there even if you buff Bullet Attractor, Shield Polarize and Pull to insane levels... even this will not help. She needs COMPLETE SKILL REWORK, it's like creating new Magnetic-based Frame all over again. But this time with synergy and complicated/useful mechanics.

[Sappow]

The explosion from the new shield conversion seems to scale with the amount of shields removed, now that it is a % removal instead of a fixed low number. Sometimes I've seen the explosions do one damage, sometimes I've seen them just kill everything nearby. It seems to vary with the target.

 

So presumably, it would be quite a bit of damage on those late-game moas and shielded crewmen...

 

Now that polarize is percentage based, I've been casting it a lot and rather appreciating the results. If Attractor was a lot cheaper to cast, It'd feel absolutely worth it in its current state, just for basically taking a grineer heavy unit out of the fight completely for 10 seconds.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Sappow

[BBYipho]

I strongly disagree with you, OP. Simple stat or mechanic tweak of her current skills will give nothing. Mag is the "Useless Tier" for a reason and she will stay there even if you buff Bullet Attractor, Shield Polarize and Pull to insane levels... even this will not help. She needs COMPLETE SKILL REWORK, it's like creating new Magnetic-based Frame all over again. But this time with synergy and complicated/useful mechanics.

 

And I will say I completely disagree with you also. She needed more polish and updates to her abilities. I decided to go with this Frame as my main solely for assisting my friends while playing Warframe. Instead of changing everything to some damaging skill I rather have Mag support the team much better.

 

Not everyone uses all the abilities of their Warframe. You should keep that in mind. I just want the core idea of this frame fixed. Not redone to make her look like that Badarse everyone want every frame to be. I'm starting to get tired of most of these views on that she needs to be remade to do damage. She seriously doesn't.

 

Anyway I have testing to do and information to correct.

 

Edit:

 

The explosion from the new shield conversion seems to scale with the amount of shields removed, now that it is a % removal instead of a fixed low number. Sometimes I've seen the explosions do one damage, sometimes I've seen them just kill everything nearby. It seems to vary with the target.

 

So presumably, it would be quite a bit of damage on those late-game moas and shielded crewmen...

 

Now that polarize is percentage based, I've been casting it a lot and rather appreciating the results. If Attractor was a lot cheaper to cast, It'd feel absolutely worth it in its current state, just for basically taking a grineer heavy unit out of the fight completely for 10 seconds.

 

Tested. Explosions caused by Shield Ospreys no longer do significant damage compared to the older Shield Polarize. Shield Ospreys later game still shrugs off the damage making this skill not so great on killing them through draining other enemies.

 

I don't know about percentage base. However there is a change that I've noticed. With Focus on my Shield Polarize heals up to 500 shields. That's still not really great. I still wish they change it to that suggestion on constant recharge.

 

Bullet Attractor I'm going to have to say it just needs to be reworked from the ground up or replaced. The idea is good but how it executes it is bad. Now if it only effects bullets leaving the sphere instead of the ones entering. That way shots from the outside wouldn't have aim problems but shots leaving the bubble would be redirected. But yes. Even with it fixed a cheaper cost would be nice.

 

Maybe if we change Skill 2 and 3's places. Make Bullet Attractor 2 with improved mechanics... And make Shield Polarize 3 with no delay, fast recharging shields over a duration of time.

Edited July 6, 2013 by BBYiffo

[GetAtMeMods]

1. Pull Suggestions

Before Update 8.3 Suggestions:

• Allow Mag's pull to do bonus damage to enemies that fall certain vertical distance. Allow enemies to be yanked off major cliffs again, for a certain amount of damage, and if they die their drops will appear were pull originally hit the target.

• For enemies behind cover... If he's not going to fall over that wall allow me to SLAM him into that cover. Doing some major damage to the target. Or respectively allow Mag to pull the target slightly up to yank him out of cover.

• Allow Pull to be used while moving. (Suggest by CheeseThief and Hameln)

Suggestions for Current Update:

• Allow for older version of Pull to work while in Aim mode. Increase range of yanked target while in Aim mode. Be able to rescue teammates.

 

2. Shield Polarize Suggestions

Before Update 8.3 Suggestions:

• Enemies: The damage towards enemy shields doesn't get changed. Instead if the enemy's shield hit 0 for using this skill. He will recieve DoT damage for For example. If we do 400 points of shield damage and it turns their shield to 0. They take a dot damage over 4/5/6/7 seconds of about 6/8/10/12 per tick. This negating the ability for their shields to recharge for the time and still doing minor/moderate damage to those without shields.

• Allies: Add a recharge function to the skill. Shields will start their recharge at an extreme rate (Like 200%-400%) on allies for 5/7/10/13 seconds without turning off. Meaning even while being shot at their shields are still recharging. Thus giving the skill some more use for the several seconds instead of instant restoring a shield that will just get drained seconds later.

• Allies 2: When restoring shields to allies create a 4-5m stun against enemies this making it more useful for helping allies and stop enemies temporarily. (Idea by CheeseThief)

 

3. Bullet Attractor Suggestions (All suggestions before 8.3 still apply.)

• Have Bullet Attractor target specific points of the body based on where the player aimed. That way instead of center mass where all damage gets reduced, players can instead hit a targeted weak point the Mag had picked. (Thought came from Ystella's post)

• Have bullets only change course and hit the target if it was never going to hit anyway. Increasing effectiveness of aimed shots while the missed shots reacts to Bullet Attractor. (Idea by CheeseThief) I like this actually. Maybe if bullets only get effected while leaving the bubble only? That way bullets are only punished for leaving the sphere instead of entering it.

 

4. Crush Suggestions

• Make Crush do more damage to larger/armored targets. Make this ability focus more on damaging stronger enemies over weaker ones.

• Make Crush into the first aim-able AoE ult. Have it do massive damage to heavily armored enemies in a line/cone. Damage unaltered by enemy resistances.

• Change the 1000 damage reducible by enemy armor to 750 damage that is reducible with 250 armor ignoring/absolute damage. For enemy scaling. (Idea by CheeseThief)

• Make Crush have two phases. The first one disabling all enemies in the area of effect like it currently does. Then an area damage that effects the disabled enemies and the enemies running into the Crush zone. She is sending some debris during her Crush animation. It should still hurt. (Idea by Hameln)

Pull

-utility skills are fine. I dont understand why everything needs tons of damage. Be realistic please how often are people high up vertically. Not at all so no.

-oh more damage suggestion? No. Its not hard to hit enemies behind cover when their head literally sticks out entirely for the longest time.

-nope. They already made the animation. Why would they just thow it away?

-yes. This is a staple for mag and will likely come back.

Shield polarize

-sure a damage buff for a damage skill. Dot i dont agree with. Rather have total shield gets removed and half of the shield value does health damage.

- this is so moronically op. currently its fine as it is.

Bullet attractor

-They already added a explosion for more damage so no.

-yes

Crush

-i highly doubt skills will have enemy biases.

-nope. Sounds exactly like pull with damage. Sure.

-no

-yes. The only original good idea in this thread.

[CapricaSix]

As a Mag user myself... that AoE Pull has got to go as soon as possible.

 

I don't really mind that Mag can't pull other players anymore as long as Loki's switch teleport doesn't work on others either, usually just used it on dying teammates to get to them quicker but nothing too essential at the end... I'd very much prefer "no power trolling" over "mildly convenient".

[Sappow]

I really like the aoe pull, especially with a heavy melee weapon to compliment it. Pulling everything into a heap and then squashing it works out pretty well...

 

Shield Polarity, after testing it some, absolutely does all the shields it drains in an aoe to everything other than the enemy you just drained... so the damage popups are small, especially on earlier enemies, but there's a lot of them if you use it on a big corpus crowd. I'm not sure how much shield value is actually generated by shield drones, but it is quite effective when used on a MOA crowd. IMO It's actually a pretty good skill now. Plus it scales. It's niche, but its quite powerful in that niche.

 

It's really just Bullet Attractor that's an outlier, and mostly because of its ability cost problems. The skill in its current conception basically can't get strong enough to be worth 75 energy under almost any condition no matter how you tweak it... but it would be quite worth it if it were only 35 or so.