Do you think that balance is possible with the current state of warframe.

[SoulEaterReaper]

Energy is the main problem, Let abilities be bit more Stronger so we can actually Collect energy, no more trinity. and possibly even buff energy pads or remove them.

Also in order to do that the warframe health and shields need to get alot higher like 5000 range +,  cause today its Frost / Vauban and with one trinity you can keep on forever.

you want to level up an item, waow just pick your Rhino with 5000-7000 Ferrite Armor that costs barely any energy, can do 175% efficiency with 6000 armor +, farm up your weapon and never have to worry about dying or thinking cause everything is too easy annyway.

the only balanced part of warframe is when you have to level up your warframe, but leveling up weapons is too easy.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

On Donnerstag, 17. März 2016 at 7:22 PM, (PS4)horridhal said:

This isn't Dark souls and, hopefully, it never will be.  The game is balanced around being a horde game, not a "This single enemy is as powerful as you" type of game.  Stop expecting that to change and I'd bet you'd have more fun.

Horde game? Yeah. Balanced? No. This argument keeps popping up recently but i don't see the correlation. Shmups could be considered "horde games" as you're put up against vast superior numbers of enemies, yet these are notorious for being hard as making love... While in this game with the right loadout everything is manageable with little to no effort at all, even the supposedly hardest content. Some frames and weapons just totally outshine all the others, i still can't see how this wouldn't be defined as disbalance. Like i said i don't want to force other players into anything, just give challenge to the people who enjoy it, without deliberately gimping myself. Why should i be forced to do so? That's not how games work. I might just as well tell all the god-mode lovers to stay on mercury if it's so much fun being OP...

Edited March 19, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[-InV-igo95862]

Indeed. Right now warframe has a cheese or be cheesed type of balance.

Edited March 19, 2016 by igo95862-LookingForClan-

[Urlan]

Balance of course is a subjective concept to a point, however when one side of a confrontation has a power plateau and the other does not, there is an inherent bad match-up. Many players and even some devs think the issue is players having too much power for anything outside of imbalanced match-ups to be considered challenging. If however, both sides leveled in the same manner and gained mod points towards using mods or mod equivalents, a power plateau would be shared by all sides and there wouldn't be any imbalance.

For instance, players now have progression by acquiring and upgrading weapon damage mods; if we changed it so that enemies would not scale stats based on level but instead have more mod points to equip mods, we create a situation where adding or removing the damage mods; multi-shot mods;or even elemental mods does not create an unequal scenario. If we removed damage mods and such without addressing the real issue of how the enemies scale and grow in power, the situation will become the same perceived game-state as now, but with different mods.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Urlan

[(PSN)horridhal]

8 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Horde game? Yeah. Balanced? No. This argument keeps popping up recently but i don't see the correlation. Shmups could be considered "horde games" as you're put up against vast superior numbers of enemies, yet these are notorious for being hard as making love... While in this game with the right loadout everything is manageable with little to no effort at all, even the supposedly hardest content. Some frames and weapons just totally outshine all the others, i still can't see how this wouldn't be defined as disbalance. Like i said i don't want to force other players into anything, just give challenge to the people who enjoy it, without deliberately gimping myself. Why should i be forced to do so? That's not how games work. I might just as well tell all the god-mode lovers to stay on mercury if it's so much fun being OP...

Your entire argument ignores that Horde games are balanced differently than other game types.  A horde mode is heavily dependent on scaling and the player making a mistake in order to be killed.  There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept and Warframe is definitely not the progenitor of this sort of game.  Your entire complaint is based around the game not being what it is, and instead being closer to a game like Dark Souls where a single enemy is difficult and a major threat.  The two are completely different styles of games and, if you prefer the latter, then this probably isn't the game for you.

Now, for the bit about some frames outshining others, who cares?  They are ALL viable to at least 60 minutes in T4, with proper modding.  Just because some happen to be a little more viable than others doesn't make the others worthless or pointless to use.  Heck, Oberon is one of my least favorite frames, but people still use him in legitimate content.  They aren't wrong for doing so, either.  The same goes for weapons.  I use an Orthos Prime as my primary melee the vast majority of the time even though there are better choices in terms of melee weapons.  There being better choices doesn't negate my choice being viable for my playstyle.

What you are discussing would do exactly that, though, force other people to play your way as opposed to the game we have now which allows for both play styles.  You say you shouldn't have to gimp yourself, but then complain about imbalance when discussing the meta.  Of course the meta is going to seem imbalanced, it always does in games like this and, if you run it, you are going to negate much of the challenge of the mission.  That's how meta's work.  But you aren't being forced to do so.  Your changes would force people to play the game the way you think it "should" be played.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 hour ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Your entire argument ignores that Horde games are balanced differently than other game types.  A horde mode is heavily dependent on scaling and the player making a mistake in order to be killed.

Well now there's not much room for mistakes if you're running around with 99% damage reduction and all you have to do in order to win is spam a single button, is there? To be honest, i don't see where i don't acknowledge the fact that this is a horde game like you call it and instead concentrate on a single target balancing, would you mind quoting me on something like that? Thing is trash mobs and priority targets often fall equally easy, that's why we have to deal with alot of invincibilty phases on the latter...

1 hour ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Now, for the bit about some frames outshining others, who cares?  They are ALL viable to at least 60 minutes in T4, with proper modding.  Just because some happen to be a little more viable than others doesn't make the others worthless or pointless to use.  Heck, Oberon is one of my least favorite frames, but people still use him in legitimate content.  They aren't wrong for doing so, either.  The same goes for weapons.  I use an Orthos Prime as my primary melee the vast majority of the time even though there are better choices in terms of melee weapons.  There being better choices doesn't negate my choice being viable for my playstyle

You're right, said task is met rather easily with all kind of loadout options. Things turn from rather easy to completely effortless with a frame like valkyr though, she even solos said mission for 2 hours with the only danger being to fall asleep mashing E... Sorry, but i feel that's just not well designed. Same with events like Divine Will. Why even put work into designing an epic boss fight when you don't even have to really face him? Just examples.

1 hour ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Of course the meta is going to seem imbalanced, it always does in games like this and, if you run it, you are going to negate much of the challenge of the mission.  That's how meta's work.  But you aren't being forced to do so.  Your changes would force people to play the game the way you think it "should" be played.

I feel like we're not only able to negate much of the challenge tho, but all of it. Problem with that is things tend to get a little boring. I'm "forced" to cheese if i want to do things the most efficient way possible, which usually is the "natural" intent. Like i pointed out, if you want the game to be the least challenging possible there's places for that, too.

[(PSN)horridhal]

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well now there's not much room for mistakes if you're running around with 99% damage reduction and all you have to do in order to win is spam a single button, is there? To be honest, i don't see where i don't acknowledge the fact that this is a horde game like you call it and instead concentrate on a single target balancing, would you mind quoting me on something like that? Thing is trash mobs and priority targets often fall equally easy, that's why we have to deal with alot of invincibilty phases on the latter...

Only one frame can provide that immunity for the group.  Very few frames can simply spam a single power and kill the map.  Pretending that every frame has access to those abilities doesn't do your argument any favors.  You are refusing to acknowledge that Horde games are not balanced the same way a non-horde game is balanced.  Pretending that balance is only achieved through the creation of enemies on par with frames is the equivalent of you acting like Horde games and Souls games are balanced in the same way.

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

You're right, said task is met rather easily with all kind of loadout options. Things turn from rather easy to completely effortless with a frame like valkyr though, she even solos said mission for 2 hours with the only danger being to fall asleep mashing E... Sorry, but i feel that's just not well designed. Same with events like Divine Will. Why even put work into designing an epic boss fight when you don't even have to really face him? Just examples.

By all means, please indicate how another player cheesing something, or there being a way to cheese through something, is detrimental to your play.  The option to not run those things you find make the game "too easy" exists.  Right now, as the game stands, both options exist for both types of players.  You want to limit said options and force everyone into your style of play.  I take issue with such moves because they limit the overall scope of what can be accomplished in the game.  I don't feel other players should be limited because you are incapable of controlling your own actions and not running the meta.

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

I feel like we're not only able to negate much of the challenge tho, but all of it. Problem with that is things tend to get a little boring. I'm "forced" to cheese if i want to do things the most efficient way possible, which usually is the "natural" intent. Like i pointed out, if you want the game to be the least challenging possible there's places for that, too.

Again, who cares?  The option to institute a challenge to yourself by simply not running the meta exists naturally.  You aren't "forced" into anything and are, instead, asking that others be forced to play the way you feel is "correct."  You are actively complaining about the meta being too powerful when, in fact, that's the whole point of the meta.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

17 hours ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Only one frame can provide that immunity for the group.  Very few frames can simply spam a single power and kill the map.  Pretending that every frame has access to those abilities doesn't do your argument any favors.  You are refusing to acknowledge that Horde games are not balanced the same way a non-horde game is balanced.  Pretending that balance is only achieved through the creation of enemies on par with frames is the equivalent of you acting like Horde games and Souls games are balanced in the same way.

I did in no way pretend all frames were capable of doing that. Quite the contrary: If that was the case the game would indeed be "balanced" (albeit in probably the worst way possible imo). My point is: One frame is still one too much. Try to get a LOR-Raid without 1-2 Trins going, you'll see how much freedom and variety there effectively is...

 

17 hours ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

By all means, please indicate how another player cheesing something, or there being a way to cheese through something, is detrimental to your play.  The option to not run those things you find make the game "too easy" exists.  Right now, as the game stands, both options exist for both types of players.  You want to limit said options and force everyone into your style of play.  I take issue with such moves because they limit the overall scope of what can be accomplished in the game.  I don't feel other players should be limited because you are incapable of controlling your own actions and not running the meta.

OK, first of all: I don't only think it's potentially detrimental to what i consider fun play, it's detrimental to what i consider gameplay as a whole. The culmination of that meta as you define it was probably Mesa / Banshee and Greedy Mag playing the game for you while you were AFK. You might still ask: When it's fun to people investing the least energy into a game as possible, why take it from them? I just don't get what's the point of playing a game in the first place if that's all you're looking for.

 

Then why and how that kind of playing affects me personally: You would be right if i only wanted to play solo or had a dedicated clan for going with non-OP frames. Since i'm mainly talking about endgame content being imbalanced the former is critical: Some of it isn't soloable at all (raids) while in Sorties you're most likely being constantly over-cheesed. Now before you take that fact as a pro-OPness argument: I think the increasingly cheap AI tactics are in fact the logical consequence of OUR power-creep. For example ppl hate nullies but really there was no choice but to introduce such an enemy with energy being so easy to come by. For starters it drops like candy regularly anyway, then there's energy siphon, then came fleeting expertise, primed flow, zenurik, little pizzas, medium then super large ones from syndicates... Energy is in fact easier to come by than ammo, isn't that kinda off? Skill strengths are supposed to be somewhat balanced by energy economy, yet there is no reason for Excal or Ash to ever use their 1s when they can just 4 all day long. That aside the game is obviously mostly built around teamplay and i appreciate the social aspect so i usually don't solo, except quests and spy missions.
Then the clan option: Is there even such a thing? None i know of.
Sure i can just pick what i want in pugs (and often enough i do, Volt being my favourite frame for example) but not rarely you get sh*t for being "useless", or worse: You feel useless yourself because you can't even aim at an enemy before someone else obliterates the map.

 

17 hours ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Again, who cares?  The option to institute a challenge to yourself by simply not running the meta exists naturally.  You aren't "forced" into anything and are, instead, asking that others be forced to play the way you feel is "correct."  You are actively complaining about the meta being too powerful when, in fact, that's the whole point of the meta.

Alright, if you put it that way you won: I DO wanna take things from people in that regard... what i meant was: I don't want to force my preferred level of difficulty on others. I believe the game would still be rather easy with most of the cheese removed but there ya go.

 

Maybe you're right and that's just how gaming / "meta" nowadays works, maybe i'm getting old but like i already said i always assumed the point of a videogame was putting in effort to master it (not only time / resources) and feel good about it (all the while being entertained of course). "Back in the day" as you went along things got harder but at the same time your skills, experience and in some cases ingame possibilities improved, making for a more or less nice curve. Yet in this game actually the more you accomplish the easier it gets... To a point where you're able to practically annul any challenge at all.
Yes, i still feel that's just bad design and yes, because of that in the end "bad for the game": We're creeping towards a dead end. It's already one-shot or be one-shot, where do we go from here?

 

I liked to think of balance and challenge as universal categories of game quality, but maybe you're right and that's just my personal, antiquated way of thinking.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir