There are only 6 major roles for frames in the game and Trinity dominates almost half of them

[Fifield]

6 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Since when is 'immunity' a role?

You could call it defence I guess.

[AdunSaveMe]

2 minutes ago, Fifield said:

You could call it defence I guess.

Not really a role I've ever heard of. It kinda isn't one.

[----Fenrir----]

3 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

1. Single target damage(Rests finisher opener)
2. AOE damage(Maim)
3. Crow Control(Maim/Pacify Augment)
4. Energy Provider
5. Healer(Mend)
6. Immunity(Pacify)
7. Damage buffer(Provoke/Rage)
8. Undetectability(Rest)
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost(Metamorphosis[Day])

--> Equinox's roles in bold.
 

Call the nerf band wagon

The same could be said for Oberon. He has

• Healing
• Support
• Damage
• CC

He has it all. So why does no one play him or wants him in their teams? Because he does it all rather poorly. Same for Equinox apart from Maim.

The problem with Trinity is that she is the best, and by a large margin, in everything she does. And as long as that remains so no other support frame will have a chance.

[dandin3]

HA. so dont agree on that post.

yes trintiy can have heal damg menget and enrgy buff. but she hard to solo. and harder to do damge with.

chroma ash atlas and wukong are the same style play? only cuz the solo players and one target damge..

hell no, they very very unlike. 

so yea. there some fram that suts team play. and some solo play. so thats way u see trintiy at sooo many place. when PLAY A TEAM GAME. 

but not many player play solo trintiy like they play ash or valkyer solo..

 

[Fifield]

31 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Nova could easily fit with 2,3,7 and 10.

Saryn could fit into 1, 2, and 7.

Agreed with most of your comments.  However...

Neither Nova nor Saryn dominate any of these.

Nova is strongest in #3 (crowd control), but she doesn't dominate it.  Mirage provides equally good crowd control.  Frost provides some, particularly with the globe augment.  This, along with OP AOE immunity, makes him highly viable.  Likewise, Loki performs a kind of crowd control.

Saryn is strongest in #2 (AOE damage) but she doesn't dominate it since her nerf -- many frames share that role now.

I put the roles roughly in order of importance.  #1 and #2 are dominated by guns though.  Banshee provides a massive damage buff but it's rarely used.  So it's #3-#6 which are the most important features in frames.

Of those 4 roles, Trinity dominates 3.  No other frame dominates any of the top 6 roles.  That's how OP Trinity is.

38 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

I would have to say that although Trinity's Energy Vampire may be way ahead of all other energy gaining tools in the game i find it obvious why she has stronger heal than all other healers, if you would make them on par with Trinity either by lowering her or by increasing there what would she be able to do instead?

Both EV and Blessing need to be nerfed.  She shouldn't dominate any of the roles.  No frame should, else there's no room for the other ~19 frames to compete.

She can be slightly better than all the other frames at either healing or energy provision but not both.  If we say she's a healing frame (and "trinity" is associated with healing) then EV has to be nerfed into the ground.

A more practical approach is nerfing energy regen across the board like this:

EV would still be the best but then Blessing would have to be weaker than Oberon's Renewal.  The easy way is to remove the full shields and damage reduction and give both to Renewal (which would keep the slow wave mechanism).

[MarcusGraves]

6 minutes ago, dandin3 said:

HA. so dont agree on that post.

yes trintiy can have heal damg menget and enrgy buff. but she hard to solo. and harder to do damge with.

chroma ash atlas and wukong are the same style play? only cuz the solo players and one target damge..

hell no, they very very unlike. 

so yea. there some fram that suts team play. and some solo play. so thats way u see trintiy at sooo many place. when PLAY A TEAM GAME. 

but not many player play solo trintiy like they play ash or valkyer solo..

 

The hell are you talking about? Trinity is easily one of the best solo frames because of how self sufficient she is plus being able to give herself big fat amounts of damage resistance, all she needs is decent weapons.

Reading what you wrote was extremely difficult though, grammar is awful and why are you spacing out every single sentence?

[felixsylvaris]

Rhino:

1. Single target damage
2. AOE damage
3. Crowd control
4. Energy provider
5. Healer
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability

Rhino OP! Also that epic codpiece.

Most frames are designed in the way:

1. Spammable
2. CC
3. Buff
4. AOE Nuke.

So chances that they fit 3 roles are rather high.

Trinity is support frame, and team games generally benefit from having support and CC master. And having CC and Support even if not more effective is more fun to play, since they could cover our lacks. If Ash joins the team i couldnt care less, but if Vauban does the game will become more enjoyable for ME.

Healing is not that big deal, most players either have own sustain or pizzas. Energy regeneration is big deal since we potencially want to use our AOE nuke as often as possible.

There could be more frames with energy regeneration even if in form of blue orb spawn.

Edited March 20, 2016 by felixsylvaris

[Hellmaker2004]

15 minutes ago, Fifield said:

EV would still be the best but then Blessing would have to be weaker than Oberon's Renewal.  The easy way is to remove the full shields and damage reduction and give both to Renewal (which would keep the slow wave mechanism).

That make no sense, you say Trinity is to strong with two of her tools, to balance it out you want her to be weaker in one and potentialy keep the other, but. Moving Blessing to a frame that allready do more damage, crowd controll and defensive support than Trinity. All you would do with this is put Trinity in a spot that Oberon currently is in healing. Sure she would have EV but EV can be replaced by Pizza's.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[Fifield]

15 minutes ago, felixsylvaris said:

Rhino:

1. Single target damage
2. AOE damage
3. Crowd control
4. Energy provider
5. Healer
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability

Rhino OP! Also that epic codpiece.

Somebody beat you to this bogus argument (half way down first page).  But you didn't bother reading that .  Nor did you even read the title properly:  " Trinity dominates 3 of them "

Yes big text suits this reply.

How many does Rhino dominate? 0
How many is Rhino best at? 0 or 1.  Pretty good damage buffer, but so is Mirage.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Fifield

[Fifield]

1 minute ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

That make no sense, you say Trinity is to strong with two of her tools, to balance it out you want her to be weaker in one and potentialy keep the other but. Move Blessing to a frame that allready do more damage, crowd controll and defensive support than Trinity. All you would do with this is put Trinity in a spot that Oberon currently is in healing. Sure she would have EV but EV can be replaced by Pizza's.

EV can't be replaced by pizzas since you have to stand still, with everyone crowded on one spot to use the latter.  Also, placing them can be a PITA and you have to check someone's bringing the large ones.  EV is near global, can be used on the move, works a lot faster and every Trinity has it.

Would this heavily nerfed Trinity be too weak to fit the meta?  I don't think so.  Energy provision would remain the most or second most important ability in the game.  She would still be best at it, even if her 1 wasn't remade.

[Hellmaker2004]

EV can indeed be replaced by a Pizza. They deploy instantly and you can put a key bind for them, and you do not have to stand still for the first 100 Energy only if you want the other 300 Energy. And at this point the construction time / cost is not even worth mentioning.

 

What you are talking about is removing blessing and giving it to Oberon in one or another way. This would make Trinity as bad as Oberon currently is in healing and replaceable with a consumable item meanwhile Oberon would be able to.

 

Deal damage in AoE (Weak output)

Afflict foes with Radiation (Decent output)

Remove Debuffs

Offer armor increase

Heal (Debatable output depending on how renewal is changed)

Offer Damage resistance. (Debatable output depending on how renewal is changed)

Stun foes for a short time around him

And spawn health orbs.

 

So all you did was turn Oberon Into a stronger than the current Trinity but force the group to use Pizza's instead.

You may have recognized one of the problem the game has but this would simply switch to make another frame worthless, Trinity has nothing besides Blessing and EV.

[hukurokuju5]

Trininty has the only form of team energy restore in a skill

Trinity's heal is the BEST form of healing because it the ONLY effective form of healing: BURST healing( 0-100).  every other frame with a heal is limited by slow mechanics, making it really hard to effectively react to teammates HP being lowered.  Additionally, there is a point where a majority of frames get 1 shot, making it almost impossible for frames like oberon to react to dropping HP levels, because their healing takes too long to activate.  

The only thing that comes close to having good reactive healing is lifestrike, but most players don't run melee to increase survivability

The gigantic damage reduction after the heal is arguably the most powerful part of bless. teamwide, instant, huge % damage reduction. no other skill comes close

 

Tl;DR 

The reason why trinity is so strong is that she has a MONOPOLY on TEAMWIDE energy restore, EFFECTIVE-TEAMWIDE healing, TEAMWIDE damage reduction.  

There is no other frame that has comparable skills, making no alternative picks really "viable" for the "role"

 

 

 

 

also, i would classify stealth and CC as form of conditional damage reduction.  if an enemy is stunned, cant target you, super slowed, cant shoot you, the damage reduction is effectively a conditional 100% ( assuming you dont get hit in crossfire)

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by hukurokuju5

[MarcusGraves]

People should honestly be surprised Energy Vampire has continued exist to this day simply because when something like energy is the driving force behind what our frames can do and how often we can do it, you kinda scratch your head as how this power with it's ability to easily max out energy bars in one cast for minimal investment, has dodged the wrathful eye of Scott's frame balancing.

18 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

EV can indeed be replaced by a Pizza. They deploy instantly and you can put a key bind for them, and you do not have to stand still for the first 100 Energy only if you want the other 300 Energy. And at this point the construction time / cost is not even worth mentioning.

It can, but it will be completely inferior in comparison because EV can give more in a bigger burst and over a wider range which are massive factors in how fast this game moves.

Everyone can go in circles all they want over this frame, but nothing about her complete domination over the other pseudo healer/support frames will ever change as long as EV exists, also going hand in hand with how some of them need to be brought up some in balance.

Edited March 20, 2016 by MarcusGraves

[----Fenrir----]

3 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

Trinity's heal is the BEST form of healing because it the ONLY effective form of healing: BURST healing( 0-100).  every other frame with a heal is limited by slow mechanics, making it really hard to effectively react to teammates HP being lowered.  Additionally, there is a point where a majority of frames get 1 shot, making it almost impossible for frames like oberon to react to dropping HP levels, because their healing takes too long to activate.  

The only thing that comes close to having good reactive healing is lifestrike, but most players don't run melee to increase survivability

 

She not just has the best healing in the game, but also the second best. Even the chronically underused "Well of Life" is better than any healing ability other warframes offer.

And yes, most healing abilities in the game are useless because they are too slow or their range is too limited to be useful. It's Trinity, Life Strike, pizza, or don't even waste your time trying to use it to heal.

[Hellmaker2004]

1 minute ago, MarcusGraves said:

It can, but it will be completely inferior in comparison because EV can give more in a bigger burst and over a wider range which are massive factors in how fast this game moves.

Everyone can go in circles all they want over this frame, but nothing about her complete domination over the other pseudo healer/support frames will ever change as long as EV exists, also going hand in hand with home some of them need to be brought up some in balance.

 

If you are giving Energy faster and a wider Burst you have already destroyed one of her 3 dominating skills.

EV requires you to have High Range, Decent Strength and as low Duration as possible.

Blessing and her survivability tool Link requires as much duration as possible.

You can not have EV at max effectiveness and Blessing at the same time.

[Fifield]

1 minute ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

You can not have EV at max effectiveness and Blessing at the same time.

True and this is a good thing.  But Trinity is still necessary for fulfilling most of the main roles in the game and this means that most of the variety and potential enjoyment provided by the other 29 frames is lost!

@Fenrir -- don't forget that Furis healing mod.

[Stratego89]

7 hours ago, Fifield said:

PS other OP abilities:
Exalted Blade
Snowglobe
Invisibility
Prism
Molecular Prime.
Bastille
Vortex

Snowglobe, molecular prime, and bastille are not OP. Rest definitely are though.

[hukurokuju5]

8 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

 

If you are giving Energy faster and a wider Burst you have already destroyed one of her 3 dominating skills.

EV requires you to have High Range, Decent Strength and as low Duration as possible.

Blessing and her survivability tool Link requires as much duration as possible.

You can not have EV at max effectiveness and Blessing at the same time.

EV trin builds with super low duration are really only  good for JUST ev.  Really only useful for premade farming as their survivability is terrible.

 

if you run a balanced build with some str, you can counter the longer duration problem but just killing the enemy that you EV, which will disperse an amount of energy on kill

[rawr1254]

Ash

1. Single target damage(Shuriken/Teleport)
2. AOE damage(Bladestorm)
3. Crowd Control(Smokescreen/BS)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(BS)
7. Damage buffer(Melee mult w/ BS)
8. Undetectability(Smokescreen)
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Atlas

1. Single target damage(Landslide/Rumblers
2. AOE damage(Landslide/Tectonics)
3. Crowd Control(Rumblers/Landslide/Tectonics)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Tectonics)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Banshee

 

1. Single target damage(SOnar)
2. AOE damage(Sonar/Sound Quake/Sonic Boom)
3. Crowd Control(Silence/SOnic Boom/Sound Quake)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer(Sonar)
8. Undetectability(Silence)
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Chroma

 

1. Single target damage(Effigy)
2. AOE damage(Effigy)
3. Crowd Control
4. Healer(Fire)
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Vex Armor/Cold)
7. Damage buffer(Vex Armor)
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Ember

 

1. Single target damage(FIreball/WoF)
2. AOE damage(WoF/Fire bast)
3. Crowd Control(Accelerant/WoF/Fire blast)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer(Accelerant)
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Excalibur

 

1. Single target damage(SD)
2. AOE damage(RJ/EB)
3. Crowd Control(Blind)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer(blind)
8. Undetectability(blind)
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Frost

 

1. Single target damage(Freeze)
2. AOE damage(Avalanche/Ice Wave/Globe)
3. Crowd Control(Avalanche/Ice Wave/Globe)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(globe)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Hydroid

 

1. Single target damage
2. AOE damage(PS/TB/Undertow)
3. Crowd Control(PS/TB/Undertow)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver(Augment)
6. Immunity(Undertow)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability(Undertow)
9. Farming(Augment)
10. Speed boost

Inaros

 

1. Single target damage(Devour)
2. AOE damage(Dessimate/SS/Sandstorm)
3. Crowd Control(Dessimate/SS/devour/Sandstorm)
4. Healer(finisher/devour/Scarab swarm)
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(himself)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Ivara

 

1. Single target damage(Artemis bow)
2. AOE damage(Artemis bow)
3. Crowd Control(sleep)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver(pickpocket)
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer(sleep arrow finisher/navigator)
8. Undetectability(Prowl)
9. Farming(pickpocket)
10. Speed boost

Limbo

1. Single target damage(Banish)
2. AOE damage(Cataclysm)
3. Crowd Control
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver(RIft)
6. Immunity(Rift)
7. Damage buffer(Rift Surge)
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Loki

1. Single target damage
2. AOE damage
3. Crowd Control(DIsarm)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer(Invisibility[melee dmg buff])
8. Undetectability(Invisibility)
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Mag

1. Single target damage(BA)
2. AOE damage(SP/Crush/Pull)
3. Crowd Control(Crush/Pull)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer(Bullet Attractor)
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Mesa

 

1. Single target damage(Peacemaker/BB)
2. AOE damage
3. Crowd Control(Shooting Gallery)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Shatter Shield)
7. Damage buffer(SG/bit of PM after kills)
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Mirage

 

1. Single target damage(Weapon used)
2. AOE damage(Weapon used/Prism)
3. Crowd Control(prism/SoH)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Hom/Eclipse[shadows]/prims blind)
7. Damage buffer(HoM/Eclipse)
8. Undetectability(blind)
9. Farming
10. Speed boost

Nekros

 

1. Single target damage
2. AOE damage
3. Crowd Control(Terrify)
4. Healer(Desecrate)
5. Energy Giver(Desecrate)
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability(terrify)
9. Farming(Desecrate)
10. Speed boost

Nezha

 

1. Single target damage(FIrewalker)
2. AOE damage(All 4)
3. Crowd Control(Firewalker/DIvine Spears)
4. Healer(Blazing Chakram)
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Warding Halo)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost(Himself/Firewalker)

Nova

1. Single target damage
2. AOE damage(MP)
3. Crowd Control(MP)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer(Molecular Prime/AMD dmg buff from shooting it)
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost(wormhole)

Nyx

 

1. Single target damage
2. AOE damage(Absorb)
3. Crowd Control(Chaos)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Absorb)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability(Chaos)
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost

Oberon

1. Single target damage(Smite)
2. AOE damage(Reckoning/Smite)
3. Crowd Control(Reckoning)
4. Healer(Reckoning/Renewal)
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Hallowed Ground)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost

Rhino

1. Single target damage(Rhino Charge)
2. AOE damage(Charge/Stomp)
3. Crowd Control(Stomp)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Iron Skin)
7. Damage buffer(Roar)
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost

Saryn

1. Single target damage(toxic lash)
2. AOE damage(spores/molt/miasma)
3. Crowd Control(spores/molt/miasma)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer(in a way with viral)
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost

Valkyr

1. Single target damage(hysteria)
2. AOE damage
3. Crowd Control
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Hysteria)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost(warcry)

Vauban

1. Single target damage
2. AOE damage
3. Crowd Control(everything)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost

Damn Vaubans got nothin...

Volt

1. Single target damage(shock)
2. AOE damage(overload/shock)
3. Crowd Control(Overload/shock)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(shield)
7. Damage buffer(shield)
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost(Speed)

Wukong

1. Single target damage(Iron Jab)
2. AOE damage(primal fury)
3. Crowd Control(primal fury/cloud walker a bit)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(defy)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability(Cloud Walker)
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost

Zephyr

1. Single target damage
2. AOE damage(tornadoes)
3. Crowd Control(tornadoes)
4. Healer
5. Energy Giver
6. Immunity(Turbulence)
7. Damage buffer
8. Undetectability
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost(augment)

Can we all move along now?

[rawr1254]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

I had changed the original post so that it was foolproof to see why your argument is bogus but you still didn't get it.  I notice you didn't bother reading the thread either.

But the whole "thing" you're going on and on about it that Trin "dominates" 3 roles. Okkkk ALL those frames dominate 3 if not more than 4-5 of those roles. And heck Vauban dominates CC all by himself. Now while I agree she is crazy good at what she does I don't feel she should be destroyed just so the other frames can feel better about themselves. It's the same as some noobs joining a game and saying don't bring x cause I can't kill enough stuff for myself then.

[(PSN)urkonse]

umm....AoE = Crowd control......

 

this list is waste of time. all frames are what they are and thats it

[rawr1254]

Just now, (PS4)urkonse said:

umm....AoE = Crowd control......

 

this list is waste of time. all frames are what they are and thats it

AoE damage =/= CC. CC would be only CC w/o the dmg while at the same time AoE dmg can CC at the same time ie Rhino Stomp.

[DiosGX]

6 hours ago, R34LM said:

Take Oberon: he has some pretty descent healing potential, but that is all he can bring for the team at high level, while Trinity brings a more effective heal as well as more things.

Not sure what frame you've been playing, but Oberon rules at lv100+. Maxed range Reckoning forcibly halting all enemy movement and fire in a room instantaneously regardless of line of sight has been pretty invaluable from what I've seen and done.

Otherwise, he has a cleanse—two actually, where Trin-trin lacks one at all. There's also this little thing called Smite Infusion. I dunno. Making team mates deal 250% more damage seems like something that's also being overlooked in the Broberon/Trin-chan comparison. 

o3o

[felixsylvaris]

Too clear up list of roles (in order):

1. AOE Damage - most of missions is about killing stuff
2. Defense - not being killed is big plus, invulnerability or health regen, up 2 u Big part is "protect objective".
3. CC - makes 1&2 easier to execute, may argue that CC is not really needed if you kill fast enought or that it is just fancy defence. Also makes it easier for player to aim and lag.
4. Energy supply - Energy Powers everything. Like bullets in the gunfight. But it is hard to run out of bullets, but very easy to run out of energy.

Undetectability is not so important. No need for silence if there is no one to hear screams.

Mobility isnt limiting factor in most missions.

Buffs/Debuffs are not essencial. Generally fall to either AOE DMG or Defence.

Players will generally preffer combinations giving mana. Like Efficiency mods. Zenurik focus school. Or friendly Trinity.

Having more frames (or other sources) regenerating energy will be most welcome.

Players generally prefer with support or CC monkey rather than Kill Thief.

Trinity nerfs would make sense if Trinity will playing without Trinity became impossible. Or if she spoils the fun. WHich could take a while since the whole Trinity kit adds the fun for other players.

Edited March 20, 2016 by felixsylvaris

[Fifield]

10 minutes ago, rawr1254 said:

But the whole "thing" you're going on and on about it that Trin "dominates" 3 roles. Okkkk ALL those frames dominate 3 if not more than 4-5 of those roles. And heck Vauban dominates CC all by himself. Now while I agree she is crazy good at what she does I don't feel she should be destroyed just so the other frames can feel better about themselves. It's the same as some noobs joining a game and saying don't bring x cause I can't kill enough stuff for myself then.

I don't quite understand how you still don't get what this whole thread is about but...

"Dominate" here means no other warframe is anything like as good in that role.  Which means that only frames that dominate these roles get used n most missions... Unless they happen to be really good in 2 roles -- can't think of an example though.

Feel free to rewrite your list.