Op Weapons? Why Shouldn´t Harder-To-Get Weapons Be Better Than Starter Ones?

[tommyrt]

Ensuring balance through sidegrades encourages viability in using a variety of weapons. The difficult to get clan weapons add different dimensions to things while ensuring balance. 

 

I see no problem here.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Personally, I feel like any weapon should have the RPG aspect and IMO already does via the mod system and especially now with polarities.  In this way, each weapon can be its own progression and you have the option which ones you want to do that to.

[Xylia]

Usually Gorgon is for bosses, or Hordes of enemies.

 

Braton is for the "shoot 5-10 shots here, shoot 5-10 shots there" while gunning down your average runners, leapers, chargers, light grineer, medium grineer, etc.

 

Heavy Grineer, you probably want to bring something with a little more Oomph if you need it to die NOW. Maybe a Glaive or something. Strip the shields with the Braton, throw the glaive, finish it off with the Braton.

 

Gorgon? "Boss is right there, MOW HIM DOWN!" or "HORDE of Infested incoming, let them eat lead Ahnold minigun-style!"

 

That's basically what the Gorgon IS -- a glorified minigun with most of the perks and downsides one brings.

[Xylia]

Ensuring balance through sidegrades encourages viability in using a variety of weapons. The difficult to get clan weapons add different dimensions to things while ensuring balance. 

 

I see no problem here.

 

Have you SEEN an Ogris (the rocket launcher, IIRC?)?

 

Those things are a freaking beast.

 

It is like a sniper rifle that does huge AoE damage upon impact. Basically, combine a shotgun with a sniper rifle and you get THIS thing.

[R43N3F]

What? Who thought you those bad lines? It's "With great power comes great responsibility". Geez, get it right. Though, I agree that the reason why Ogris is so powerful is because of the splash damage being so powerful that it can kill yourself if you weren't careful. Torid needs a buff though.

 

 

seems you never played with the rocket luncher before or seens someone play with it, 

 

 

so for you it would be "with time knowledge comes (hopefully)" ^^

[Densoro1]

How are there good points for the side wanting balance? You want a good strong weapon? EARN it by grinding just like all the other players

That just turns into 'dump more hours into the game so that you can get a generic gun with big numbers, to make it easier to dump even more hours into the game for even bigger numbers.'

Farming time =/= balance. If you're rewarded for sitting there beating your head against the wall for three days, that's not very good game design, and it doesn't make an OP weapon any less OP. It just means that people with more free time to dump into the game get a more complete experience than people who want to play a great game in the couple hours they get the chance.

[fatpig84]

Braton is what I call a straight upgrade.

Cronus as well.

 

But damn the Braton for it's price (or lack of it) is a very very stellar endgame weapon.

[BadAimbot]

I love the AkLato. I've used them for a very long time and no other secondary feels quite like them. I don't want to be forced to switch to the AkBolto or any other gun because the AkLato is objectively worse. I agree with your point that harder to get weapons should be better. But I disagree that weapons like the clan ones should be those weapons. Prime weapons should be what we work so hard to get, because we know in advance whether we like the weapon or not. Experimenting with weapons is a big part of the progression in this game, but striving to attain new and exciting weapons should not be the endgame. Using the new and exciting weapons should be how we reach the endgame instead. It just so happens that we're lacking in this endgame right now, though.

[PulseNeon]

Earlier in the game's cycle, bosses specifically had ridiculous shield recharge and weapons like the Snipetron and Latron were relatively UP. they didn't do a lot more damage than a Braton, required a large investment at the time (Missions used to reward about 1k of credits) and both weapons were 50k. As soon as you reloaded those guns the bosses started regenerating their shield.

So what happened was that entire squads just wielded the Gorgon and mowed down the boss or most enemies like heavies with no problem. At the time having anything else just felt...inadequate because you either couldn't get more than a single shot in against enemies or you weren't doing comparable damage on your own..

Now, part of the problem with that is Bad Boss design. The newer bosses are better in this, but the Jackal, while originally enjoyable, is now a joke because you can keep him down with a single player firing any modded gun.

And that's another issue: Damage comes mainly from the Mods you put on it, with Serration being very powerful and armor piercing being an essential buff.

However, the more recent rifle overhaul actually did make most guns a sidegrade instead of a pure upgrade. Gorgon now has it's place, but the Braton is more respectable than it used to be. I don't have a tatered Burston so I can't commend on that, but even the Latron puts out some very respectable DPS against most bosses now and is a lot more useful in most situations because it takes a lot less shots to down enemies that you could just spray down with an Gorgon or a Braton, hell, the Shotgun nerf was much needed because the Hek was outdoing my Paris for sheer range power on the Orokin power core defense map with the drill. Now the Hek acts like a shotgun, but it's only -relatively- more powerful than the Strun while fielding a smaller clip. That's decent.

And melee weapons....yeah, that's...another problem.

[Ced23Ric]

In a game where one of the best primaries and one of the best secondaries are both available without mat farming, for credits, I think it is safe to say that other guns are sidegrades. I am talking about the Braton and the Lex.

[unmog]

In a game where one of the best primaries and one of the best secondaries are both available without mat farming, for credits, I think it is safe to say that other guns are sidegrades. I am talking about the Braton and the Lex.

I love my lex, but admittingly I love my akbolto more. Still, if were going to talk about the best weapons, Kunai are up there.

 

As far as the OP's concern though, I agree and honestly think the term "balance" in a Co-Op game isnt as important. I mean really, there are some frames that are just superior than others. Do you get to start off with them? Check out Mag for example, so nope, and I haven't seen any buffs for her as of yet have you? No, you have to make them. So I think the fact that there are better weapons [the most literal examples being the latron vs the latron prime, or the braton vs the mk-1 braton] is perfectly acceptable, especially for things like the stalker weapons which are difficult to come by. I mean if they were just the same as any other weapon, why would I or anyone go out of our way to aquire them, especially when our inventory space is so limited. [i think we should have in game means to increase our inventory without plat too]

 

The only problem I see is with people that want to upgrade their lower tier weapons. Would be nice if every time you used Forma you had a choice to increase a stat by a percentage, OR add a polarity slot for instance. Speaking of weapons leveling up, I always thought it was strange that my Frame got stronger as I leveled, gaining more Health, Shield, and Energy... but my weapons never did. I think that all weapons should improve some of their stats as they level to 30 as well. But hey... thats a different discussion.

[oneproduct]

In a game where one of the best primaries and one of the best secondaries are both available without mat farming, for credits, I think it is safe to say that other guns are sidegrades. I am talking about the Braton and the Lex.

Every time someone calls the Lex a good weapon I pull out a fistful of hair. It has the lowest DPS of ALL secondary weapons and less accuracy than the Lato. If you want to snipe with a pistol, the Lato that you start with is a fine choice.

[krisp]

I am one of the people who thinks all weapons should be sidegrades.  Why?

 

1. Forma and Potatoes: with the addition of forma, the devs have encouraged for the first time spending extended periods with one weapon.  Making weapons of higher ranks better makes polarizing a weapon a poor choice.  It's already delicate because of buffs and nerfs, but if weapons were upgrades, there'd always be a better weapon on the horizon.  Why spend your forma now?  Similar arguments can be applied to potatoes.

2. The cost of the clan weapons is irrelevant.  You can farm those materials.  Things like the Supra are supposed to be later in the game.  DE was having issues with people consuming content too quickly, so they made content that is consumed slower.  People keep trying to associate the time spent farming with how good a weapon should be but I don't believe that was DE's goal.  IMO they were trying to slow down the rate at which the masses burned through their content because it really was absurd.  The same argument is applied to the dojos.

3. If weapons are upgrades, that encourages a certain amount of power creep, which necessitates more content which those powerful weapons are used in, else there is no challenge.

4. If weapons are upgrades, then there will necessarily be less options at your mastery level than there are in total below it, meaning that the weapon you've been using and loving is no longer viable and you end up using a weapon you don't want to play the content mentioned in 3.

 

As such, weapons at higher mastery levels would not be objectively be better but rather would get more specialized and if you ask me, that's exactly how the dojo weapons were intended.  The Supra is stupid-powerful at short range, but lack in other regards.  The Ignis is the bane of light infested.  The Lanka is intended to take down Corpus.

I support this sentiment. There'd be no point in polarizing an inferior weapon if weapon tiers were implemented. Sidegrades give players freedom of choice and allow them to make meaningful decisions regarding their gear. I don't want the pre-u7 situation again where everyone and their dog used the Hek and everything else was crap in comparison.

[Ced23Ric]

Every time someone calls the Lex a good weapon I pull out a fistful of hair. It has the lowest DPS of ALL secondary weapons and less accuracy than the Lato. If you want to snipe with a pistol, the Lato that you start with is a fine choice.

 

Feel free to feel that way. It's ammo efficient beyond belief and has a high stopping power. Since damage reduction seems to be a flat value, high damage is more important than high dps. But at the end, it's personal preference.

[Xylia]

Every time someone calls the Lex a good weapon I pull out a fistful of hair. It has the lowest DPS of ALL secondary weapons and less accuracy than the Lato. If you want to snipe with a pistol, the Lato that you start with is a fine choice.

 

Yeah, and the Gorgon has a high DPS too, amirite?

 

But you'll never kill more than a few enemies before you run out of ammo.

 

Does this mean that it is superior to the Braton/Boltor?

 

Of course not, because of how many shots you have to fire to achieve that DPS.

 

Lex is sorta the same way. More damage per shot means you fire less shots.

[BadAimbot]

I love my lex, but admittingly I love my akbolto more. Still, if were going to talk about the best weapons, Kunai are up there.

 

As far as the OP's concern though, I agree and honestly think the term "balance" in a Co-Op game isnt as important. I mean really, there are some frames that are just superior than others. Do you get to start off with them? Check out Mag for example, so nope, and I haven't seen any buffs for her as of yet have you? No, you have to make them. So I think the fact that there are better weapons [the most literal examples being the latron vs the latron prime, or the braton vs the mk-1 braton] is perfectly acceptable, especially for things like the stalker weapons which are difficult to come by. I mean if they were just the same as any other weapon, why would I or anyone go out of our way to aquire them, especially when our inventory space is so limited. [i think we should have in game means to increase our inventory without plat too]

 

The only problem I see is with people that want to upgrade their lower tier weapons. Would be nice if every time you used Forma you had a choice to increase a stat by a percentage, OR add a polarity slot for instance. Speaking of weapons leveling up, I always thought it was strange that my Frame got stronger as I leveled, gaining more Health, Shield, and Energy... but my weapons never did. I think that all weapons should improve some of their stats as they level to 30 as well. But hey... thats a different discussion.

 

You go out of your way for the same reason we want weapons to be be balanced: because you like the way the weapon handles. If there are flat out correct choices on what to use, then that's the exact same situation if nobody bothers to get new weapons, except in the case of everything is balanced, people have a choice to try something new, whereas if there are tiers of weapon effectiveness, you only choose to gimp yourself.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I agree. Upvoted.

[Hollow_Knight]

I confess this has been a topic of some confusion for me since I got a hold of my boltor at the lowly rank of 2.

 

Seriously, try a boltor, it's only better than everything...

 

Our clan recently finished the Dera, providing us with (essentially) a non-critting Braton with a higher base damage.  Personally, I love it, but it doesn't hold a candle to the boltor, and yet it requires rank 4.  We're about a day away from the Supra, and I have heard good things, but unless it's far and away better than the boltor (I remain skeptical), still seems insane to me that it requires mastery rank 7...

 

I could understand a higher mastery rank for more SPECIALIZED weapons, that were extraordinarily effective in certain situations, but less so in others, but again the versatility of the boltor sort of kills this idea dead in the water.  Granted it has some flaws, but unless your lag is really bad the travel time (its only real weakness) won't bother you unduly.

 

Additionally, let's take some time to talk about the Gorgon, since everyone else already has.

 

I feel the Braton is a much better weapon, the gorgon (or the 'wet hotdog launcher' as my clanmate is fond of calling it) has a lot of good points but its one failing that cannot be overcome is its horrific accuracy.  The shotguns have a greater effective range than this thing.  The gorgon could go from being almost useless to freaking fantastic if it just had better accuracy, but for the time being it remains useless except as a short range alternative for those people who don't like shotguns.

 

And hey, this is just the long guns, don't get me started on those Kunai...

Edited June 16, 2013 by Hollow_Knight

[Me.Greedy]

Which gun you have unlocked and being used is relatively pointless. With the right mods on a gun; you can make pretty much anything epically powerful.

 

i'd agree with the statements about things needing to be more specialized at higher levels. a shotgun that gives a special bonus to fire damage so i can smite infested better would make me happy.

[Zeneroth]

If there are "Better guns" who will be using the other ones?  Every players will be forced to use the same guns and same warframe that is "the best" due to others aren't viable for later contents.  I am a supporter for horizontal (more equal viable alternatives)expansion instead of vertical (higher lv caps, better gears).  Vertical expand will force players to use the most efficient options they had, see World of warcraft as an example, all Druids wear same top tier gears they can find, using same builds and even using the same addons.  There is no choices, no favourites, no character and no preferences at all because there is "the best" so who don't use the best thing is just simply gimped and handicapped.  Warframe as it is promote variety and you can practically use almost every guns and I'd love to see DE continuing to do the same as they did before.

[Aggh]

Sidegrade VS Upgrade topic?

 

Well, if you approach the game from TPS aspect then sidegrade is a better choice of the two, Consider that sidegrade, mixing mechanics and stat adjustment, can creates a lot of weapon variances without messing with game balance. This type of design also offer greater varieties in gameplay more than upgrade. Look at ME3MP for reference if you want to know how to make weapons as sidegrade while making them feel unique (granted, it was a long, torturing process).

 

On the other hand, approaching the game from RPG perspective and you will see upgrade as a more reasonable choice. You invest hours upon hours, Forma after Forma into the game to create dojo with lab and invest a lot more for weapon research - you should get something fabulous in return, not something bland.

 

Consider that Warframe has been trying to blend two elements together, it's logical that some mechanic like the current theme of laser/poison/fire should be limited to clan-based weapons but overall performance should be a little bit better than purchasable weapons in the market. They should use novel mechanics as a selling point, not a direct upgrade in stat. 

 

^This so much.

[Mietz]

If this game ever has a "best weapon" im going to stop playing.

 

I can't imagine anything more boring than using one uber weapon forever.

[oneproduct]

 

Feel free to feel that way. It's ammo efficient beyond belief and has a high stopping power. Since damage reduction seems to be a flat value, high damage is more important than high dps. But at the end, it's personal preference.

 

Yes, it is ammo efficient.

 

What is your definition of stopping power? Since it has less DPS than every other secondary, I would not say that it has good stopping power.

 

Damage reduction is not a flat value, it is a percentage. You can check this quite easily by looking at the wiki or checking numbers yourself in game.

 

Yeah, and the Gorgon has a high DPS too, amirite?

 

But you'll never kill more than a few enemies before you run out of ammo.

 

Does this mean that it is superior to the Braton/Boltor?

 

Of course not, because of how many shots you have to fire to achieve that DPS.

 

Lex is sorta the same way. More damage per shot means you fire less shots.

 

The gorgon does indeed have high DPS, I'd like to see you refute this with some sort of evidence to the contrary. You can feel free to test this on your own when shooting at a boss.

 

RE: "But you'll never kill more than a few enemies before you run out of ammo."

The gorgon and the braton have different uses. Since the gorgon does more damage per bullet than the braton, it actually is able to kill more enemies using the same amount of ammo as the braton. However, since you'd have to control the gorgon instead of spraying it and lose fire rate due to never being wound up, you'd of course lose lots of its potential DPS. But if you have a target that you can go full auto on, like a boss, the simple truth is that it does more DPS. If you intend to go farm bosses, you should definitely bring a gorgon instead of a braton. I definitely prefer a braton for playing on defense missions though. With the supra though, I'm not so sure as the immense jump in DPS makes up for some of the wasted ammo that you pump into enemies as well as allowing you the choice of going full auto on ancients/heavy grineer when you need to for some really impressive DPS.

 

Lastly, because you can buy ammo boxes for 1000 credits, ammo concerns are by far secondary to the DPS you can get. If you're still worried, then you can bring a slightly more ammo efficient other weapon to go along with one that isn't. However, you should try to pick two weapons that don't sacrifice too much DPS in order to be ammo efficient. For example, the despair/kunai are both ammo efficient while being arguable some of the best secondary weapons in terms of DPS when you consider their armor piercing/penetration properties. So yes, the Lex is ammo efficient, but it sacrifices incredible amounts of DPS in order to do so, having the _lowest_ DPS of all secondary weapons.

Edited June 16, 2013 by oneproduct

[oneproduct]

I confess this has been a topic of some confusion for me since I got a hold of my boltor at the lowly rank of 2.

 

Seriously, try a boltor, it's only better than everything...

 

Our clan recently finished the Dera, providing us with (essentially) a non-critting Braton with a higher base damage.  Personally, I love it, but it doesn't hold a candle to the boltor, and yet it requires rank 4.  We're about a day away from the Supra, and I have heard good things, but unless it's far and away better than the boltor (I remain skeptical), still seems insane to me that it requires mastery rank 7...

 

I could understand a higher mastery rank for more SPECIALIZED weapons, that were extraordinarily effective in certain situations, but less so in others, but again the versatility of the boltor sort of kills this idea dead in the water.  Granted it has some flaws, but unless your lag is really bad the travel time (its only real weakness) won't bother you unduly.

 

Additionally, let's take some time to talk about the Gorgon, since everyone else already has.

 

I feel the Braton is a much better weapon, the gorgon (or the 'wet hotdog launcher' as my clanmate is fond of calling it) has a lot of good points but its one failing that cannot be overcome is its horrific accuracy.  The shotguns have a greater effective range than this thing.  The gorgon could go from being almost useless to freaking fantastic if it just had better accuracy, but for the time being it remains useless except as a short range alternative for those people who don't like shotguns.

 

And hey, this is just the long guns, don't get me started on those Kunai...

 

The boltor's defining feature is certainly it's armor ignore property. The paris is the only other primary weapon that has this (if we ignore the snipetron as it's no longer available) but the boltor has higher DPS than the paris. Because of this it's very hard to disagree with you when you're talking about fighting high level enemies. The boltor is certainly extremely awesome.

 

Just wanted to point out this little tidbit though. If you're willing to play Volt and host your own games, his electric shield actually converts projectiles that shoot through it to armor ignoring damage rather than electric as the wiki says (you can verify this easily by using it against ancients or grineer which electric damage should be bad against). It also turns bolt type weapons into hit-scan weapons when they hit it. You have to be the host though as electric shield is another of the "works for the host only" bugs that hasn't been fixed yet.

 

So if you shoot anything with higher DPS than the boltor (e.g. braton or gorgon) through the electric shield, it becomes purely superior to it. Of course asking people to play Volt is a pretty tall request, but it is the second highest DPS you can get against heavily armored targets as far as I am aware (#2 supra + electric shield as volt, #1 despair + sonar as banshee).

Edited June 16, 2013 by oneproduct

[Wooffgang]

Funny how most ppl go on about having the best gun being a bad thing.I wonder.... out of all this people that keep bashing on better weapons being added. Why do i suspect most of them own:

 

-Nerf on the Hek/Boltor/Braton - There is no such topic even tho they outclass most primary weapons.

-Nerf on the Lex/Vipers -No such topic

-Nerf on Gram/Schindo/Fragor/Hate - No such topic

 

I really like how you guys think. If im gonna ask for a nerf on something from the list above all of you : "Keep it balanced heroes" Will come rushing to the thread protecting your precious gun. Feel free to test. Go ask for a nerf on this see the reply. You can also double check and see that one of the guys who is against the change will go full ape on that thread.

 

The way I see what the side that wants "Balance" is saying: Hey I got a potato trough farm/Market for my gun. Don't add a better one. I just added it a polarity and all.I do not want to get more weapon slots/potatoes. Just let me get something early on and stick with it till death do us part."

The day i see random squads doing high level missions with the starter weapons i will back you people asking for balance up. Ye if you are going to take your Mk-1 Braton; Lato and skana to a T3 run or a wave 20+ wave then yes. I will agree with you. Until then i do not think you have the right to ask for balance. Like i said you probably own one of the good guns and you don't want anything better to be added so that the time you spent on it doesn't get wasted. Stop being self centered.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Kyryu