Restrict Nyx from using weapons while using Absorb

[.Jet.]

This leads to some very cheap tactics. A player just throws castanas at the ground, hits 4, explodes castanas and hits 4 again. Bang, everyone dead.

[Nighttide77]

The first time a Nyx does that you should probably be privy to that tactic the second time... It's not as if Castanas have an instantaneous fire rate so that tactic isn't telegraphed.

[IceColdHawk]

delete...

Edited April 2, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[.Jet.]

21 minutes ago, -cS-Nighttide77 said:

The first time a Nyx does that you should probably be privy to that tactic the second time... It's not as if Castanas have an instantaneous fire rate so that tactic isn't telegraphed.

Conclave is not 1v1, such players run into the crowd and do it. So if you want to survive you need to stay out of the fight while this cheap player scores cheap kills. Yeah, that's fair.

[Leyers_of_facade]

My suggestion for nyx's absorb ability

Remove the invulnerability in total. Sure, you can give nyx something like 80% dmg reduction, but not 100%.

Also, remove the invulnerable period right after her bubble bursts (not sure if this is intended or a bug), with that I think  things will be more fair.

Edited April 2, 2016 by 14159265358979323846

[Nazrethim]

23 minutes ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

My suggestion for nyx's absorb ability

Remove the invulnerability in total. Sure, you can give nyx something like 80% dmg reduction, but not 100%.

Also, remove the invulnerable period right after her bubble bursts (not sure if this is intended or a bug), with that I think  things will be more fair.

Or place a minimum energy requirement to cast, like only be able to cast absorb when you are above 80-100 energy

[Nighttide77]

47 minutes ago, .Jet. said:

Conclave is not 1v1, such players run into the crowd and do it. So if you want to survive you need to stay out of the fight while this cheap player scores cheap kills. Yeah, that's fair.

Not much different from an Excal that pulls out Exalted Blade and just cleans house on a small group fighting each other...or Blade Storm, Miasma, World on Fire, Hydroid Tentacle Storm...

The huge difference is that outside of the range, Nyx is very vulnerable after the cast so if anyone is out of range, they can just kill that Nyx, and collect all that Nyx's Oro.

[.Jet.]

Just now, -cS-Nighttide77 said:

Not much different from an Excal that pulls out Exalted Blade and just cleans house on a small group fighting each other...or Blade Storm, Miasma, World on Fire, Hydroid Tentacle Storm...

The huge difference is that outside of the range, Nyx is very vulnerable after the cast so if anyone is out of range, they can just kill that Nyx, and collect all that Nyx's Oro.

It's not the same. When Excal player presses 4 everyone jumps away and the player doesn't score any kill. When Nyx activates the bubble, everyone jumps away and gets dragged back to Nyx thanks to augment. Ash needs full energy to use Bladestorm and doesn't kill everyone in one hit. Nyx needs 25 for Absorb and one-hit kills everyone thanks to Castanas explosion.

[Rhaenxys]

1 hour ago, .Jet. said:

It's not the same. When Excal player presses 4 everyone jumps away and the player doesn't score any kill. When Nyx activates the bubble, everyone jumps away and gets dragged back to Nyx thanks to augment. Ash needs full energy to use Bladestorm and doesn't kill everyone in one hit. Nyx needs 25 for Absorb and one-hit kills everyone thanks to Castanas explosion.

Wrong, Absorb cant do one hit kills with only 25 energy, she needs at least 50 energy to make any noticeable damage or a one hit kill in a lucky situation.

And now all of a sudden absorb invulnerability is a problem? the energy per second consumption was increased sometime ago, at full energy it last 3 or 4 seconds? we have warding halo and iron skin, just saying.

Absorb does a lot of noise and throwing castanas requires a decent amount of time to get any significant damage into absorb, you can completely avoid the guy if you see him throwing castanas at the floor and if you dont notice the nyx user doing this is only your own fault for not paying attention, how is this different than not paying attention to exalted blade, bladestorm or any other high damage fourth ability?

Another undeserved nerf petition, what a suprise...

[.Jet.]

Just now, Rhaenxys said:

Wrong, Absorb cant do one hit kills with only 25 energy, she needs at least 50 energy to make any noticeable damage or a one hit kill in a lucky situation.

And now all of a sudden absorb invulnerability is a problem? the energy per second consumption was increased sometime ago, at full energy it last 3 or 4 seconds? we have warding halo and iron skin, just saying.

Absorb does a lot of noise and throwing castanas requires a decent amount of time to get any significant damage into absorb, you can completely avoid the guy if you see him throwing castanas at the floor and if you dont notice the nyx user doing this is only your own fault for not paying attention, how is this different than not paying attention to exalted blade, bladestorm or any other high damage fourth ability?

Another undeserved nerf petition, what a suprise...

Black weapon energy + noise from the crowd. Nyx just throws castanas from afar, then dashes into the crowd, presses 4, MMB, 4. Everyone's dead. The sequence takes less than 1 second.

[Rhaenxys]

Just now, .Jet. said:

Black weapon energy + noise from the crowd. Nyx just throws castanas from afar, then dashes into the crowd, presses 4, MMB, 4. Everyone's dead. The sequence takes less than 1 second.

And how is this exclusive to absorb? there are other weapons and abilities which are a problem with black energy, if anything, the problem is black energy in free for all and no, the "sequence" takes more than one second if you want to do any high damage, you need at least one second to throw 3-4 castanas and another second to absorb the damage, if you do it too quick you wont absorb any damage.

[.Jet.]

Just now, Rhaenxys said:

And how is this exclusive to absorb? there are other weapons and abilities which are a problem with black energy, if anything, the problem is black energy in free for all and no, the "sequence" takes more than one second if you want to do any high damage, you need at least one second to throw 3-4 castanas and another second to absorb the damage, if you do it too quick you wont absorb any damage.

Tell me about other weapons/abilities that insta-kill you and how black energy helps it. The sequence starts when Nyx gets into the crowd (4-MMB-4).

[Nighttide77]

6 hours ago, .Jet. said:

Tell me about other weapons/abilities that insta-kill you and how black energy helps it. The sequence starts when Nyx gets into the crowd (4-MMB-4).

Oberon Hallowed Ground, Ember Fireblast, Vauban Vortex.

Sorry, dude, your case against Absorb is just hard to accept.  Nyx has been in Conclave for a very long time and this sort of tactic has been known.  If it were a super serious issue, something would have been done about it.

In fact, Loki Switch teleport into a stack of Castanas would have been fixed before Nyx Absorb + Castanas a long time ago.

[Guest Pun-chee]

Do I think Absorb + Castanas is an issue? - No, I don't think it's worse than other Ability+weapon combos.

Do I think alternative fire of weapons should be disabled for Nyx while in Absorb? Yes - just because, from a "logical perspective" it doesn't make sense that Nyx can press alt fire, while she hovers in air, meditating, having no weapon in hand.

What if Stug will be introduced? That might become really strong with Absorb. Let's clear this up before we have serious exploits.

 

 

[Drinniol]

So I've been giving the castanas absorb combo a try.

Is it overpowered?  A little bit, honestly.  Throwing 2-3 castanas (which is all you really need to ensure a good number of kills if you do it in the middle of a brawl, and you can cleanup of course), then absorbing and releasing takes a little longer than something like Volt or Frost ults.  There are three big differences, however, between this and other big ult nukes.  The first is that you setup the castanas while positioning for the ult, then the ult itself is quite short, meaning that people generally have much less time to react unless they see you coming in and know what's going on.  The second is that you are immune (even better, absorbing more damage) during your cast animation - so you don't have to worry about dieing in the middle of a cast and losing all your energy.  The third is that you simply don't need 100 energy to do this.  Around 35 is sufficient to ensure your castanas damage gets added to your absorb even with the ever present lag.  Overall, this combo enables Nyx to produce BETTER AoE nuke ults than the frames that actually have AoE nuke ults, for about a third of the energy cost, and for less risk.  The augment that draws people in makes it even better. 

As a result, it could stand to be nerfed.  I don't think it should be touched in PvE though, so DE should be careful to only nerf the PvP version of the ability. 

[CandyDragon]

Being able to self detonate during her ability is a bit much.

That being said, on its own the ability isn't that strong unless the enemy makes it.

Compare to Banshee's sound quake with roughly the same area of effect instantly killing anyone that gets caught by it. 

[Kontrollo]

Funnily enough, I still haven't been able to play again with Nyx in PvP, so all I have to say is this:

Do not take away the ability to detonate explosives while in Absorb, unless you can make sure it only affects PvP. I was pretty annoyed when it didn't work in PvE for a while due to a bug.

[CandyDragon]

Also there is nothing from stopping you doing penta spam and then bubbling atop it however. Pretty clever to be honest.

You also need to consider that by doing this "strategy" they now lose an effective secondary. Castanas themselves aren't exactly super effective on their own.  Far to many other instant kill high damage ults exist with literally no telegraphing. 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Nariala

[Phasedragon]

36 minutes ago, Nariala said:

Also there is nothing from stopping you doing penta spam and then bubbling atop it however. Pretty clever to be honest.

You also need to consider that by doing this "strategy" they now lose an effective secondary. Castanas themselves aren't exactly super effective on their own.  Far to many other instant kill high damage ults exist with literally no telegraphing. 

 

 

You assume that people use this as the occasional situational thing. If someone's going to do that, they're going to go all out. They're not going to care if they only have 1 "effective" weapon, because even that one weapon is probably not going to get a lot of use. This is a very similar situation with all the other crappy cheese loadouts, of which there are at least a dozen varieties in this current build, which is awful.

[CandyDragon]

9 minutes ago, Phasedragon said:

You assume that people use this as the occasional situational thing. If someone's going to do that, they're going to go all out. They're not going to care if they only have 1 "effective" weapon, because even that one weapon is probably not going to get a lot of use. This is a very similar situation with all the other crappy cheese loadouts, of which there are at least a dozen varieties in this current build, which is awful.

Having used other press 4 to win abilities, Its probably the least threatening and requires additional setup to make work though. If anything its probably one of the few ability + weapon senergies the mode has.

That said, I think alt fire should be disabled in conlcave for the nyx ult. (PVE this functionality is fine and encourages interesting weapon power interaction)  Preplanning clever lob shots with the penta and then activating the bubble on it just before they explode are fine, but setting yourself up like an immortal AOE mine isn't. Which is probably why Banshee's sound quake isn't as raged about despite being a near kill guarantee if someone gets caught. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Nariala

[Phasedragon]

20 minutes ago, Nariala said:

Having used other press 4 to win abilities, Its probably the least threatening and requires additional setup to make work though. If anything its probably one of the few ability + weapon senergies the mode has.

That said, I think alt fire should be disabled in conlcave for the nyx ult. (PVE this functionality is fine and encourages interesting weapon power interaction)  Preplanning clever lob shots with the penta and then activating the bubble on it just before they explode are fine, but setting yourself up like an immortal AOE mine isn't. Which is probably why Banshee's sound quake isn't as raged about despite being a near kill guarantee if someone gets caught. 

The problem with nearly all cheese, is that it's only effective in public matches. Just because it's ineffective in 1v1's doesn't mean it doesn't have a problem. This is because in a 1v1, you can analyze the situation and react to it, while a group as a whole (especially one that is fighting itself) cannot.

 

Also, I would like to point out that absorb is 12 meters, sound quake is 10, absorb knocks down, and sound quake also has damage fall off towards the edge of it's range. Sound quake also inherently deals damage over time, and has to hit a few times to kill, while absorb + detonated explosives can be a single hit.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Phasedragon

[CandyDragon]

15 minutes ago, Phasedragon said:

The problem with nearly all cheese, is that it's only effective in public matches. Just because it's ineffective in 1v1's doesn't mean it doesn't have a problem. This is because in a 1v1, you can analyze the situation and react to it, while a group as a whole (especially one that is fighting itself) cannot.

This isn't really a 1v1 game mode though. And divorcing power effects heavily would just make it feel watered down and catering to a more "Hardcore" demographic. One that is an extreme minority of the rest of the player base. 

 

EDIT: that being said, current balance does leave something to be desired. And i'm not entirely sure if its all just the weapons and power balance. Some of the maps feel really unfun to play on, and I have no real idea on how one could change them into a positive experience. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Nariala

[Phasedragon]

27 minutes ago, Nariala said:

This isn't really a 1v1 game mode though. And divorcing power effects heavily would just make it feel watered down and catering to a more "Hardcore" demographic. One that is an extreme minority of the rest of the player base. 

 

EDIT: that being said, current balance does leave something to be desired. And i'm not entirely sure if its all just the weapons and power balance. Some of the maps feel really unfun to play on, and I have no real idea on how one could change them into a positive experience. 

And that really is the problem, though. PVP should be balanced for 1v1, and then adding more people will only expand upon that. The core concept of a weapon or strategy only being useful to take advantage of the chaos of a full match (especially, but not limited to one that takes no skill to use) is fundamentally flawed.

[CandyDragon]

6 minutes ago, Phasedragon said:

And that really is the problem, though. PVP should be balanced for 1v1, and then adding more people will only expand upon that. The core concept of a weapon or strategy only being useful to take advantage of the chaos of a full match (especially, but not limited to one that takes no skill to use) is fundamentally flawed.

Honestly I think of skills in the same way that Crits are in Tf2, a way to sort of level the field against people who are just exceptionally skilled at the weapon end of the game. 

They need more team play, there really isn't any reason to try and pair up warframe styles and strategies due to the fact that anyone thats good with a gun will just dominate only to rarely get shut down by someone getting enough energy to retaliate. For a game about clans of tenno and tenno banding together to tackle tasks, conclave is a huge departure from that logic of 1 vs the world, even in the team based modes like CtC and Team Annihilation. 

Most of the core hate of this mode is a mix of Peer 2 peer frustration and the entire ritual of "Congratulations on reaching typhoon, now enjoy being an oro farm for everyone else".   Probably unavoidable, but you remove the ability to even retaliate with power nerfing to any substantial degree and you will see conclave dry up. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Nariala

[Naftal]

Doesn't Nyx need to wait for a while in Absorb before detonating the Castanas so they actually increase the absorb damage?