Saryn's DPS

[akira_him]

people are comparing ultimates, not comparing nukes, just saying

[Ivan_Rid]

1 minute ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Thats what im getting at, if miasma does not even to much damage. Wouldn't it be more suitable for her to be able to melt armor? Since miasma does inflict corrosive damage

Thats like Number 1 request Saryn users have, yes. Moreover it takes couple dozens procs to strip all armour off 135lvl Bombard so its not even that powerful, and people would still run 4xCP making this buff moot.

[akira_him]

7 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Thats like Number 1 request Saryn users have, yes. Moreover it takes couple dozens procs to strip all armour off 135lvl Bombard so its not even that powerful, and people would still run 4xCP making this buff moot.

what if it melt percentage of armor like avalanche does?

[-CM-Machete]

DE turned into a press 1 to win (refrain from taking it 100% literal if you want to counter-argue) frame. I find it really obnoxious how they nerfed decoys and they don't get enough attention, the fact that we Molt needs to get damage (AGGP mentions this in a video, i don't know if it was already fixed). And the fact that we have to recast Molt to make it explode. Synergy is a good thing, necessary dependency is not. 

And if you want to argue about Molt being also a Decoy, I wan't to tell that many things can be used for different stuff, but if they don't do half of justice on practice than what they promise on paper, the features are useless.

A few QoL changes:

*Let us break Molt by holding the key for 1-2 seconds. 

*Rise Molt's threat level. Or fix the mechanic because it doesn't seem to work most of the time.

*Make Spores casted on Molt last as long as Molt is active.

*Make Toxic Lash provide a proper armor buff. You could even use spines or some kind of role-ish concept to justify it.

[calmchaos]

4 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Yet here we are now, and some endurance runs are solo'd. So yea

 

A ) thats still a restrictive selection comapred to every other frame

B ) Viral only reduces half HP (assuming flesh), a simple wiki post, with some studious commenter  can prove you otherwise http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Viral_Damage

 

Are you able to solo any endless mission for hours with any frame? Can you do it with Oberon? Volt? Ember? Hydroid? Zephyr? Can you honestly tell me that you're able to go on endurance runs solo with every single frame except Saryn, and that this is some great injustice to poor Saryn?

To get the most out of Wukong, you need to use a staff. To get the most out of Excalibur, you need to use a sword/dual sword/nikana. Ivara a bow. Ash's ult suffers unless your melee weapon has a fast attack speed. And Trinity can only use specific self-damage weapons in a specific way with very specific builds in order to get the most out of Blessing. How is any of that any different? Saryn just has to use weapons with good status chance to get the most out of two of her abilities (Spore & Miasma), and she even has one ability (Toxic Lash) that makes it so you can use whatever weapon you want. That right there is a lot less specific than say needing to bring the Tipedo to make Bladestorm work as best as it can. Saryn's weapon choice is no more restricted than the other half of the warframes' selection are.

Before you say something like "you can use whatever weapon you want with x frame," well you can do the same with Saryn. If you don't want Excalibur to have his extra damage from using specific weapon types, then bring whatever you want. If you don't want Saryn to easily be able to spread her spores, then bring whatever you want. Min/maxing is not a requirement, you know.

That's exactly what I just said about viral. It takes away 50% of the enemies' HP. All percentages scale. A viral proc isn't going to do the same damage to a lv5 Butcher as it is to a lv105 Butcher. That's called scaling, or getting stronger as the enemies get stronger. A viral proc doesn't do a set amount of damage to every enemy, its damage scales with enemies' HP. The link you provided says nothing to prove me otherwise.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Just now, calmchaos said:

 

That's exactly what I just said about viral. It takes away 50% of the enemies' HP. All percentages scale. A viral proc isn't going to do the same damage to a lv5 Butcher as it is to a lv105 Butcher. That's called scaling, or getting stronger as the enemies get stronger. A viral proc doesn't do a set amount of damage to every enemy, its damage scales with enemies' HP. The link you provided says nothing to prove me otherwise.

no it doesnt viral proc a 135 heavy gunner w/ armor and see if his hp gets halved then lmao.

[calmchaos]

3 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

no it doesnt viral proc a 135 heavy gunner w/ armor and see if his hp gets halved then lmao.

"The Viral status effect is Virus, which reduces a target's current and maximum health to 50% for 6 seconds."

Taken straight from the link you provided. It then goes on to say that:

1 Proc, 50  Viral Damage	2 Procs, 50  Viral Damage (Each)
Target's original health is 500/500.  Viral proc occurs: 250/250. Damage occurs (assuming Flesh): 175/250. Once the proc wears off, health returns to 350/500.	Target's original health is 500/500.  Viral proc: 250/250. Damage occurs (assuming Flesh): 175/250. Proc again within 6 sec: still 175/250. Second damage occurs: 100/250. Once the proc wears off, health becomes 200/500.

The proc doesn't care how much armor the enemy has. Viral procs don't do damage in and of themself, all they do is half the enemy's HP. You're confusing viral procs for viral damage. Viral damage does take into account the enemy's armor, but the proc doesn't.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

1 minute ago, calmchaos said:

"The Viral status effect is Virus, which reduces a target's current and maximum health to 50% for 6 seconds."

Taken straight from the link you provided. It then goes on to say that:

1 Proc, 50  Viral Damage	2 Procs, 50  Viral Damage (Each)
Target's original health is 500/500.  Viral proc occurs: 250/250. Damage occurs (assuming Flesh): 175/250. Once the proc wears off, health returns to 350/500.	Target's original health is 500/500.  Viral proc: 250/250. Damage occurs (assuming Flesh): 175/250. Proc again within 6 sec: still 175/250. Second damage occurs: 100/250. Once the proc wears off, health becomes 200/500.

The proc doesn't care how much armor the enemy has. Viral procs don't do damage in and of themself, all they do is half the enemy's HP. You're confusing viral procs for viral damage. Viral damage does take into account the enemy's armor, but the proc doesn't.

(assuming Flesh)

"Flesh"

its in plain sight

Edited April 4, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[calmchaos]

3 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

(assuming Flesh)

"Flesh"

Are you reading the same text I am? Because that step comes directly after the enemy's health is halved. Meaning that the enemy has already lost 50% of his HP before the "assuming flesh" part even comes into the picture.

[Ivan_Rid]

2 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

(assuming Flesh)

"Flesh"

its in plain sight

Flesh has a 50% weakness to Viral damage, thats what its all about.

 

Actually I would love Miasma to work like Ember Accelerant, instead of stripping armour (that is somewhat useless in current 4xCP meta) make targets take increased Toxin damage. Making it an AoE cloud instead of radial pulse would help to differentiate it from Accelerant.

And yes, popping Molt shouldnt "cost" 50 energy, I would love it to work like Rhino Ironskin augment (pressing 2 while Molt is active would pop it, then press again to recast).

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Just now, calmchaos said:

Are you reading the same text I am? Because that step comes directly after the enemy's health is halved. Meaning that the enemy has already lost 50% of his HP before the "assuming flesh" part even comes into the picture.

lmao k i cant my sides

" As people have said, Viral does not ignore armor. However, if fleshy non-Infested enemies (Grineer, Crewmen) have no armor or shields left, it does a lot of bonus damage. Even with armor mitigating some of it, it's still a noticeable bonus, although Radiation/Corrosive will do more as they have bonuses against the armor directly. "

thank god my buddy vyrn is here 

source: 

 

[h41pa]

29 minutes ago, akira_him said:

people are comparing ultimates, not comparing nukes, just saying

+++++

actually they  are talikng about old press 4 for win katka!

[-CM-Machete]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Cwellann said:

 

How many times do we have to beat this horse?  The enemy limit in the Simulacrum trashes what Saryn can do - she's at her best, as @ForumPirate and so, so, so many others have said, when there's a massive horde.  That's how she kills a heavy, by bouncing 89,731,231 (no more, no less) spores all over the entire tile and killing the heavies through massive, widespread disease.  Trash mobs act like fuel for her, and the Simulacrum is incapable of demonstrating this.  By the time you get it going with any kind of a decent Saryn build, you're out of mobs.

And I, personally, am really confused about how we all whine about synergy all the time, and then when we get a chance to make up some neat loadouts, we whine about being limited.  Just sayin'.

Sorry if this came off irritated, but that video from someone with 1 post... haha, ha... ha... oh dangit.  Nicely done OP.  Well trolled, ya got me.

Let's just be honest about one thing, this "synergy" praised as a holy grail of design is flawed. Molt and Miasma can barely do something by themselves. DE made them co-dependent, not synergic (at least you consider "collaboration" forcing someone to do something with a gun on their heads). The problem is, again Saryn has a forgettable skillset, you should use an entire ability for the mere purpose of making other one work. Toxic Lash's energy bonus is too limiting, it's not a way of fixing an efficiency issue, DE seems be thinking in raw numbers and forgeting a variable called TIME. Molt is a regurgitad version of Loki's Decoy that was forcibly put into the mix after the tweaks because it was cheaper than designing a new ability, thanks its forced inclusion into the "combo" Miasma deals way less damage and also the range of its explosion is way less than Miasma's making it relatively pointless to do all that hassle, and Miasma is the most expensive corrosive proc I've ever seen. At the end they interchanged the 4th skill for the 1st one, and it is better at killing hardware than enemies.

[calmchaos]

13 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

lmao k i cant my sides

" As people have said, Viral does not ignore armor. However, if fleshy non-Infested enemies (Grineer, Crewmen) have no armor or shields left, it does a lot of bonus damage. Even with armor mitigating some of it, it's still a noticeable bonus, although Radiation/Corrosive will do more as they have bonuses against the armor directly. "

thank god my buddy vyrn is here 

source: 

 

That only applies to viral DAMAGE. I'm not talking about viral DAMAGE because no one in this thread cares about viral damage. What people care about is the viral PROC, which reduces enemy HP by half for 6 seconds unless refreshed. The proc is what halves the enemies HP, not the damage. The damage will always be affected by armor if any is present, but the proc doesn't factor armor in at all. I'm not disagreeing that viral damage takes armor into account because it does. The proc, on the other hand, does not. I don't know how to make this any clearer.

EDIT: Even your "buddy vyrn" says the exact same thing I'm trying to say. " Viral procs work normally regardless of enemy armor. Their health still gets cut in half." This is the post he says it in, in the same thread you linked: 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Actually I would love Miasma to work like Ember Accelerant, instead of stripping armour (that is somewhat useless in current 4xCP meta) make targets take increased Toxin damage. Making it an AoE cloud instead of radial pulse would help to differentiate it from Accelerant.

^ This. I agree 100%.

Edited April 4, 2016 by calmchaos

[Rambit23Z]

What he fails to realize too is that Excal only deals damage forward. Saryn deals constant damage to everything in a huge area and unlike Excal she can use any weapon while DPS-ing with abilities. Against a low number of enemies in a controlled environment, Excal will deal way more damage. But in practical gameplay, Saryn will be hitting everything and still have weapons to use.

And that's not taking into account that spores can reach millions of pop-damage.

[tnccs215]

Viral proc is, without any shred of doubt, one of the best damaging procs in the game, along side slash proc.

If you can find a good status&crit build on a high slash melee, you will reign against all your War equiped allies.

This is for everyone that is still insisting on viral damage instead of the proc. Just stop, you are making a fool of yourself.

And corrosive projection is borderline mandatory to any long survival, dont act as if it was reserved for saryn.

And maybe, just maybe, Exalted Blade's ridiculous amount of power compared to,other abilities doesnt mean that other abilities require a buff, but the exact opposite.

Exalted Blade is a cheap, long range, high protection, high damaging ultimate that can cut through a level 130 heavy gunner like butter. If you think that is what every ultimte should be able to do, than you are one of the culprits of this game being nothing more than a cheese fest.

Saryn requires you to work a little more to get gigantic body piles. If you think that is unfair, please put down the keyboard and go take a walk.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

24 minutes ago, calmchaos said:

That only applies to viral DAMAGE. I'm not talking about viral DAMAGE because no one in this thread cares about viral damage. What people care about is the viral PROC, which reduces enemy HP by half for 6 seconds unless refreshed. The proc is what halves the enemies HP, not the damage. The damage will always be affected by armor if any is present, but the proc doesn't factor armor in at all. I'm not disagreeing that viral damage takes armor into account because it does. The proc, on the other hand, does not. I don't know how to make this any clearer.

So you claim that regardless of armor or anything a viral proc can halve an enemy's hp in half?

https://vid.me/YTKU

 

Je ne comprends pas

 

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[Ivan_Rid]

6 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So you claim that regardless of armor or anything a viral proc can halve an enemy's hp in half?

https://vid.me/YTKU

 

I support this claim. Thats what Viral proc does. Once and last time I saw that OPs video Bomdard got healed back up when Viral status expired.

edit: just took a look again. It was a Heavy Gunner. Whatever.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Ivan_Rid

[tnccs215]

11 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So you claim that regardless of armor or anything a viral proc can halve an enemy's hp in half?

https://vid.me/YTKU

 

it doesn't appear in the bar. The only graphical proof that it has any effect is how the same amount damage takes away double the size of the bar than it does without the proc. Go test it.

Try it with a level 40 enemy more or less (so that you can actually see the parts going away) and without multishot mods, and either a almost 0 or almost 100 crit chance.

Edited April 4, 2016 by tnccs215

[(XBOX)C0gnitive 0n3]

I was one of the people who was skeptical about Saryn's rework. And when the rework was released, GoodLord, I just...I just couldn't. I wanted to like it; but couldn't. So, one weekend, I sat down and decided to tweak my build around what everyone was saying. Tested it out and I began to enjoy her a little more. Over the course of the next two weeks, I continued to make changes where I needed in order for Saryn to play around my playstyle and I, finally, got something that makes me say that DE's rework of Saryn is brilliance.

I used Saryn this past weekend in a 3200 cryotic run on Heiracon. I ended with a little over 2300 kills - more kills than the Ash and Excalibur in the same team.

I then used her in a T4D and went 40 waves. Using Saryn, I had 63% of damage dealt with a little over 2500 kills.

Maybe the guy using Ash had a bad build - but as someone stated: Excalibur is a linear damage dealer. With Saryn, if you pop a Spore on a target 20m's in front of you and turn around, the Spores spread to a target 20m's behind you. You just can't lose.

[RealPandemonium]

40 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Flesh has a 50% weakness to Viral damage, thats what its all about.

 

Actually I would love Miasma to work like Ember Accelerant, instead of stripping armour (that is somewhat useless in current 4xCP meta) make targets take increased Toxin damage. Making it an AoE cloud instead of radial pulse would help to differentiate it from Accelerant.

And yes, popping Molt shouldnt "cost" 50 energy, I would love it to work like Rhino Ironskin augment (pressing 2 while Molt is active would pop it, then press again to recast).

Good to see some actual feedback hidden in this thread of garbage meta-discussion.  

11 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So you claim that regardless of armor or anything a viral proc can halve an enemy's hp in half?

https://vid.me/YTKU

 

Je ne comprends pas

 

 

To really see if Viral halves HP, you could use Toxin Chroma's 2 dot, which always deals 5% of max HP.  Do one on a Viral'd target, and then do it again after the Viral wears off.  The damage should double.   

You destroy your credibility when you deny the behavior of a well-documented Damage 2.0 mechanic.  Your expertise was always in question for me but now I can't take any of your feedback at face value anymore.  

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

30 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

it doesn't appear in the bar. The only graphical proof that it has any effect is how the same amount damage takes away double the size of the bar than it does without the proc. Go test it.

Try it with a level 40 enemy more or less (so that you can actually see the parts going away) and without multishot mods, and either a almost 0 or almost 100 crit chance.

Thats the point im making here, viral proc doesnt scale up if enemies have more and more armor. 
Lets not talk about level 40s thats barely mid tier.

 

20 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Good to see some actual feedback hidden in this thread of garbage meta-discussion.  

To really see if Viral halves HP, you could use Toxin Chroma's 2 dot, which always deals 5% of max HP.  Do one on a Viral'd target, and then do it again after the Viral wears off.  The damage should double.   

You destroy your credibility when you deny the behavior of a well-documented Damage 2.0 mechanic.  Your expertise was always in question for me but now I can't take any of your feedback at face value anymore.  

The claim was that regardless if the enemy has armor or not one viral proc would reduce the enemy's hp by 50%. Which is simply not true. And it is well documented, it even says in the wiki "assuming flesh".

If the claimint says that a viral proc halves the HP of a foe then it should do just that should it not? And if that was the case, why would it olbigatory to use CP in raids or endgame lobbies? If the viral proc actually removes half of the hp.

also to add

"a lot of targets are heavily resistant to viral so it is not a very good option when compared to other dmg types that deal +75% dmg, like corrosive or radiation (while dealing with armor, at least.)"

Thats what I see in lobbies, forums, discussions and in testing, as i love to play around with status weapons a lot. Armor "in a sense" prevents viral from delivering that 50% reduction

Edited April 4, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[RealPandemonium]

11 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Thats the point im making here, viral proc doesnt scale up if enemies have more and more armor. 
Lets not talk about level 40s thats barely mid tier.

 

The claim was that regardless if the enemy has armor or not one viral proc would reduce the enemy's hp by 50%. Which is simply not true. And it is well documented, it even says in the wiki "assuming flesh".

If the claimint says that a viral proc halves the HP of a foe then it should do just that should it not? And if that was the case, why would it olbigatory to use CP in raids or endgame lobbies? If the viral proc actually removes half of the hp.

also to add

"a lot of targets are heavily resistant to viral so it is not a very good option when compared to other dmg types that deal +75% dmg, like corrosive or radiation (while dealing with armor, at least.)"

The example says "assuming Flesh" to explain how much direct damage the Viral attack dealt on the hit that procced status.  

Armor provides a huge amount of damage reduction to high level Grineer, but Viral status will always make them take half as many hits to die, doubling kill speed so long as the status is applied (which should be always due to Saryn having Spores.)  

Using Viral as the primary damage type on your weapon is not recommended unless you are using the weapon to proc Viral status (which, again, Saryn doesn't remotely need to do,) or are fighting Grineer that have had all armor removed.  No one here is discussing Viral's direct damage.  We are talking about the benefits of its status effect, which cuts TTK in half against unshielded enemies.  For shielded enemies, TTK is still increased greatly at low levels when using Toxin damage (Toxin ignores shields) and also at high levels since enemies have proportionally less shields:health as levels go up (and most of the tough Corpus like Fusion MOAs and Techs are mostly health to begin with.)

 

Quote

 

Thats what I see in lobbies, forums, discussions and in testing, as i love to play around with status weapons a lot. Armor "in a sense" prevents viral from delivering that 50% reduction

Viral will always reduce EHP and thus TTK by 50% as long as enemies are unshielded.  If your weapon does really low damage to a high-armor enemy, though, you won't notice the effect very much.  Taking 1000 hits to kill and taking 500 hits to kill doesn't seem very different to player, who only knows for sure that killing the enemy (which may be resisting 95% of damage or even more) is going to take forever.

Edited April 4, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

9 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

The example says "assuming Flesh" to explain how much direct damage the Viral attack dealt on the hit that procced status.  

Armor provides a huge amount of damage reduction to high level Grineer, but Viral status will always make them take half as many hits to die, doubling kill speed so long as the status is applied (which should be always due to Saryn having Spores.)  

Using Viral as the primary damage type on your weapon is not recommended unless you are using the weapon to proc Viral status (which, again, Saryn doesn't remotely need to do,) or are fighting Grineer that have had all armor removed.  No one here is discussing Viral's direct damage.  We are talking about the benefits of its status effect, which cuts TTK in half against unshielded enemies.  For shielded enemies, TTK is still increased greatly at low levels when using Toxin damage (Toxin ignores shields) and also at high levels since enemies have proportionally less shields:health as levels go up (and most of the tough Corpus like Fusion MOAs and Techs are mostly health to begin with.)

Okay so we can both agree that the viral proc is not exactly effective versus a high armored target? It may be so on paper, but you don't notice it in game. And yes I have been talking about the PROC not the actual damage, in my video i used my 90% status viral boar prime. I understand its not the actual damage, Im talking about the actual effect too. 

In practice the enemy has resistance to this proc, and you said yourself that even high viral proc rates aren't exactly effective with highly resilient enemies. which is exactly what i have been trying to say this entire time. Like I said I didn't mean actual but "in a sense" as in it's perceived thats it does not.

Because as I said before 50% hp reduction should mean that that hp bar should be cut in half imho

So wouldn't it be wise to put forward @Ivan_Rid's suggestion? Which I have been pushing forward myself in other forum posts revolving around sayrn.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[RealPandemonium]

3 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Okay so we can both agree that the viral proc is not exactly effective versus a high armored target? It may be so on paper, but you don't notice it in game. And yes I have been talking about the PROC not the actual damage, in my video i used my 90% status viral boar prime. I understand its not the actual damage, Im talking about the actual effect too.

Because as I said before 50% hp reduction should mean that that hp bar should be cut in half imho

So wouldn't it be wise to put forward @Ivan_Rid's suggestion? Which I have been pushing forward myself in other forum posts revolving around sayrn.

The HP bar IS cut in half, but because you do piddly amounts of damage, the TTK is still unreasonably high.  It's just that before you applied Viral, the TTK was even more unreasonably high; it was double.  Viral proc is just as effective against armored targets as it is against unarmored targets; it just doesn't mean much when an enemy started out requiring your whole ammo pool to kill.  To be effective against superhigh level Grineer (80+) and especially the heavies, you need to be able to strip/ignore their armor, or to have egregious base damage values.  Viral makes it twice as easy to kill them, though, so you could get away with using a less powercreeped weapon to get similar performance to something like Tonkor, SancTigris, etc..