Tanks vs Gods

[Nocturnex]

1 minute ago, Phasedragon said:

A playstyle of what, exactly? We've already proved it's clearly not the stats, so it's the playstyle. And in that case, this playstyle that people are saying is being suppressed is.....what? Not utilizing what the game gives you?  Bulletjumping and mobility is at the heart of warframe; saying you want a playstyle without it is like saying you don't want to surf in tribes. Even the highest tanks can absolutely utilize mobility, and they get great benefits for having such high health. There's no reason that those tanks aren't viable, it's the attitude that is not viable of thinking that you can come into a game, completely disregard it's core mechanics, and feel entitled to do well against players that have hundreds or thousands of hours in the PVP alone.

You are not getting an argument for me. What you stated is on the money, hence Tanks are not going to get buff, Why the hell you think that I'm being confrontational about this? I've been a Tank user since ever so I know what it's like to limited in mobility, hence why I can sympathize with Aura. But this is the Conclave now. You don't move, consider yourself dead.

 

[Phasedragon]

3 minutes ago, -cS-Nocturnex said:

You are not getting an argument for me. What you stated is on the money, hence Tanks are not going to get buff, Why the hell you think that I'm being confrontational about this? I've been a Tank user since ever so I know what it's like to limited in mobility, hence why I can sympathize with Aura. But this is the Conclave now. You don't move, consider yourself dead.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was expanding on azaraki's post and wrapping up this whole thread. I did not intend to be confrontational, especially towards you. Looking back, the first sentence definitely could look that way. I'm tired, excuse me.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

On 4/8/2016 at 1:45 PM, HoakinBlackforge said:

It really should be like that? Becase we have a good movement system WE ARE all supposed to use mobility?

Im not here to debate what it should or should not be like with you or anyone lol. I'm stating exactly how it is in game. Movement is KING. You can't move? You die. That simple. So until DE makes some additional changes I suggest you and whoever else to get use to it lol. 

[HoakinBlackforge]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Lorewalker1022 said:

Im not here to debate what it should or should not be like with you or anyone lol. I'm stating exactly how it is in game. Movement is KING. You can't move? You die. That simple. So until DE makes some additional changes I suggest you and whoever else to get use to it lol. 

Then what is the purpose of tanky characters then? You have no idea of balance then. If i can use a tanky character, it should have the same viability as a highly mobile character.

Edited April 9, 2016 by HoakinBlackforge

[Azarakidragon]

20 hours ago, HoakinBlackforge said:

Then what is the purpose of tanky characters then? You have no idea of balance then. If i can use a tanky character, it should have the same viability as a highly mobile character.

 

On 4/9/2016 at 3:58 AM, Azarakidragon said:

You probably missed the post I made with myself playing Frost Prime for an hour with no mods that trade EHP for Mobility, and beasting every game I played. Or the fact that Fullmetal, easily one of the best players in the game, frequently uses tanks and believes that tank frames are viable in just as many situations as light frames. I don't know how people can feasibly just ignore anything posted in this thread that doesn't affirm their belief that there is only a single playstyle. People keep saying that the top-tier players are creating this meta where you can only play high-mobility frames when so many of us have been actively trying to show that tank frames are viable. How are we enforcing "the meta" if we're blatantly showing you how to break it?

 

[HoakinBlackforge]

2 hours ago, Azarakidragon said:

 

 

It doesnt matter if you can use the movement as a tanky character, because at the end, it all comes down to the same thing.

With the actual state of pvp, many other ways of playing are forgotten, with the removal of staggers, because nobody likes CC (or being stopped midair), now melee combos are absoltely impossible to pull out wihout getting a single hit. Rip my Lu-Bu Combo. It was also fun to plan castanas on the ground, switch the enemy with loki and blow him up.

 

I just totally disagree that everyone must be the same way on every part, its boring, why cant be your own, if you have your weaknesses, try to overcome them with your own strategies. But right now in conclave its the same boring meta for everyone.

There is nothing like: "I have problems with this player, but i can take overcome it with x attack or ability". Counterplay right now its unexistant on pvp. Anyone should be good on their own way, not all the same. There shouldnt be any "skill curve" and boring stuff like that, let people play their way. Because many here we play for fun, not dedication, we dont spend hours on learning a damn mechanic, we play because its simply pvp, and we are just like that, keep the "competitive" side away from the "casual" side. We are not you. Im sorry but i dont see pvp as serious as you do.

 

Im burned out that, like every freaking game i play recently, they all must be hardcore, like, you have to put thousands of hours to learn a single thing. When there is a lot of other games with pvp, like guild wars 2, where you just basically join, make your character build as you want, and, if it doesnt work as you expected, then you are free to change it as you want, but everything is viable. It just matters how you play it. 

 

If you truly want a "competitive" pvp, then lets talk about some ideas i have been thinking recently about dark sectors.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by HoakinBlackforge

[Azarakidragon]

35 minutes ago, HoakinBlackforge said:

It doesnt matter if you can use the movement as a tanky character, because at the end, it all comes down to the same thing.

With the actual state of pvp, many other ways of playing are forgotten, with the removal of staggers, because nobody likes CC (or being stopped midair), now melee combos are absoltely impossible to pull out wihout getting a single hit. Rip my Lu-Bu Combo. It was also fun to plan castanas on the ground, switch the enemy with loki and blow him up.

 

I just totally disagree that everyone must be the same way on every part, its boring, why cant be your own, if you have your weaknesses, try to overcome them with your own strategies. But right now in conclave its the same boring meta for everyone.

There is nothing like: "I have problems with this player, but i can take overcome it with x attack or ability". Counterplay right now its unexistant on pvp. Anyone should be good on their own way, not all the same. There shouldnt be any "skill curve" and boring stuff like that, let people play their way. Because many here we play for fun, not dedication, we dont spend hours on learning a damn mechanic, we play because its simply pvp, and we are just like that, keep the "competitive" side away from the "casual" side. We are not you. Im sorry but i dont see pvp as serious as you do.

 

Im burned out that, like every freaking game i play recently, they all must be hardcore, like, you have to put thousands of hours to learn a single thing. When there is a lot of other games with pvp, like guild wars 2, where you just basically join, make your character build as you want, and, if it doesnt work as you expected, then you are free to change it as you want, but everything is viable. It just matters how you play it. 

 

If you truly want a "competitive" pvp, then lets talk about some ideas i have been thinking recently about dark sectors.

 

 

We'd all love to keep the competitive side away from the casual side, believe me; we'd deal with far less whining and complaining that way. There is nothing wrong with you if you don't want to dedicate time to becoming good at PvP. The part that's wrong is trying to change the fundamentals of the game because you don't want to take that time. Think of what the real issue is here; it's the lack of proper matchmaking, which partially stems from a lack of population, which I guarantee will be fixed if ANY kind of server infrastructure at all is implemented, even if it's letting clans pay for the servers themselves. If we had this proper matchmaking, than people who don't want to dedicate can play with eachother in a lower skill bracket, and I would be absolutely happy with this. The fix is NOT going to come from removing all aspects of skill from PvP because you think that having a "skill curve is boring". If you want to press a button to use an ability and kill tons of people, that's EXACTLY what PvE lets you do, so go play that until we get servers/matchmaking.

 

You compare this to Guild Wars 2 PvP, fine. I don't know much about it, but from what you're saying, you can build however you want and everything is viable. Good, that's the same deal with Conclave. Myself, Fullmetal, Pytha, Phase, Noctus, Golfdinger, have all won several lobbies using tank frames and squishy frames, using every weapon type from snipers, to bows, to full-autos, to shotguns, to single-shot/burst weapons. Pytha and Phase use air melee all the time, Fullmetal and I don't. And all of these combinations have viability. What you're trying to say is just a "playstyle" difference is a fundamental part of the game, like playing Quake without strafe jumping, Tribes without surfing, or GunZ without K-style, none of which are bad things. If you don't want to learn these techniques, you don't have to! There are plenty of high-level techniques in Guild Wars PvP, too, I'm sure, but you don't have to learn those either. The difference is that you're not being matchmade against the best players in any of these games (maybe GunZ as an exception), so you don't notice that these are important things to learn in order to reasonably play the game.

 

Your complaints don't stem from game mechanics, they stem from the fact that you're constantly playing really good players. Take any competitive game out there: League of Legends, Street Fighter, Counterstrike, Quake, Smash Bros, DotA, Guitar Hero, or even real life examples like Soccer, Fencing, Swimming, or Basketball. If you play against the caliber of players that you regularly play against in Warframe in ANY of these examples, you will get beat down EVEN HARDER since all of these are far more established and popular than Warframe,

[rockscl]

what HoakinBlackforge asks is realistic given that DE hasnt given a single word about dedicated hosting, im afraid

[Nocturnex]

Seems that this discussion won't die. Kinda of relieved, actually. I just don't know how to make Tanks more viable to the common player.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

On 4/9/2016 at 4:38 PM, HoakinBlackforge said:

Then what is the purpose of tanky characters then? You have no idea of balance then. If i can use a tanky character, it should have the same viability as a highly mobile character.

Ask DE lol. I'm just telling you mobility is KING in conclave. You trying to argue with me doesn't change anything lol. 

[HoakinBlackforge]

11 hours ago, Azarakidragon said:

We'd all love to keep the competitive side away from the casual side, believe me; we'd deal with far less whining and complaining that way. There is nothing wrong with you if you don't want to dedicate time to becoming good at PvP. The part that's wrong is trying to change the fundamentals of the game because you don't want to take that time. Think of what the real issue is here; it's the lack of proper matchmaking, which partially stems from a lack of population, which I guarantee will be fixed if ANY kind of server infrastructure at all is implemented, even if it's letting clans pay for the servers themselves. If we had this proper matchmaking, than people who don't want to dedicate can play with eachother in a lower skill bracket, and I would be absolutely happy with this. The fix is NOT going to come from removing all aspects of skill from PvP because you think that having a "skill curve is boring". If you want to press a button to use an ability and kill tons of people, that's EXACTLY what PvE lets you do, so go play that until we get servers/matchmaking.

 

You compare this to Guild Wars 2 PvP, fine. I don't know much about it, but from what you're saying, you can build however you want and everything is viable. Good, that's the same deal with Conclave. Myself, Fullmetal, Pytha, Phase, Noctus, Golfdinger, have all won several lobbies using tank frames and squishy frames, using every weapon type from snipers, to bows, to full-autos, to shotguns, to single-shot/burst weapons. Pytha and Phase use air melee all the time, Fullmetal and I don't. And all of these combinations have viability. What you're trying to say is just a "playstyle" difference is a fundamental part of the game, like playing Quake without strafe jumping, Tribes without surfing, or GunZ without K-style, none of which are bad things. If you don't want to learn these techniques, you don't have to! There are plenty of high-level techniques in Guild Wars PvP, too, I'm sure, but you don't have to learn those either. The difference is that you're not being matchmade against the best players in any of these games (maybe GunZ as an exception), so you don't notice that these are important things to learn in order to reasonably play the game.

 

Your complaints don't stem from game mechanics, they stem from the fact that you're constantly playing really good players. Take any competitive game out there: League of Legends, Street Fighter, Counterstrike, Quake, Smash Bros, DotA, Guitar Hero, or even real life examples like Soccer, Fencing, Swimming, or Basketball. If you play against the caliber of players that you regularly play against in Warframe in ANY of these examples, you will get beat down EVEN HARDER since all of these are far more established and popular than Warframe,

Alright, fine, i give you this one.

But still, it really sucks for me that when before i didnt need to follow the same ways as everyone, and now its extremly hard for me to keep up, im just frustrated that i once enjoyed pvp much as you guys did, but now i cant because everything has changed completely and i hate to adapt to the same way as everyone. I didnt need to put hours to learn each damn thing, for me, before it was simply: "With this, i can do this, and this. And it works". Now it doesnt.

 

And by my experience on many other skill based matchmaking, i think that would make things A LOT WORSE. If the pvp playerbase isnt big enough, you wont be able to find matches ever.

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by HoakinBlackforge

[Feyangol]

 

18 hours ago, HoakinBlackforge said:

It doesnt matter if you can use the movement as a tanky character, because at the end, it all comes down to the same thing.

With the actual state of pvp, many other ways of playing are forgotten, with the removal of staggers, because nobody likes CC (or being stopped midair), now melee combos are absoltely impossible to pull out wihout getting a single hit. Rip my Lu-Bu Combo. It was also fun to plan castanas on the ground, switch the enemy with loki and blow him up.

 

I just totally disagree that everyone must be the same way on every part, its boring, why cant be your own, if you have your weaknesses, try to overcome them with your own strategies. But right now in conclave its the same boring meta for everyone.

There is nothing like: "I have problems with this player, but i can take overcome it with x attack or ability". Counterplay right now its unexistant on pvp. Anyone should be good on their own way, not all the same. There shouldnt be any "skill curve" and boring stuff like that, let people play their way. Because many here we play for fun, not dedication, we dont spend hours on learning a damn mechanic, we play because its simply pvp, and we are just like that, keep the "competitive" side away from the "casual" side. We are not you. Im sorry but i dont see pvp as serious as you do.

 

Im burned out that, like every freaking game i play recently, they all must be hardcore, like, you have to put thousands of hours to learn a single thing. When there is a lot of other games with pvp, like guild wars 2, where you just basically join, make your character build as you want, and, if it doesnt work as you expected, then you are free to change it as you want, but everything is viable. It just matters how you play it. 

 

If you truly want a "competitive" pvp, then lets talk about some ideas i have been thinking recently about dark sectors.

 

 

Which other ways of playing are forgotten?
You still can use your melee weapon, you just have to make sure that you stay mobile (*airmelee*). You still can switch teleport with someone and blow him up, if you have the aim and reflexes for it. It just changed that you have to play smart instead of mashing one button over and over again until you hit something. And melee combos are flawed in their own way: they will never be good as long as you always have the same movement pattern with them. There is no flexibility in them and you can't tell me that pressing one button in a certain rythm without any thought behind it is something that should reward a player with an easy kill on another player - it just feels extremly cheesy.

And it totally makes me wonder what kind of pvp is in your mind, if you say that "there shouldn't be any skill curve and boring stuff like that, let people play their way". Don't get me wrong, I don't want to make Warframe Conclave competitive, I don't think that it ever will be competitive, but this sentence just screams *I want a mechanic that allows me to be good in pvp, even if I'm a bad player!*. I do not spend much time in Conclave anymore (3-4h every week). I play Warframe just for fun and not dedication. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to learn new mechanics. I'm about to integrate the directional melee into my movement set.

And of course they are all "hardcore". People want to win, people will do their best and people will try to use everything they have to win a game. Conclave isn't very different. You make a build and then try it out. The thing that changes is how you try to gun someone down. If I use a sniper like Rubico, then I'll try to use comboing and finisher abilities. If I use a Braton, then I'll try to have some cc in my kit or some dmg amplifiers (like Saryns Spore or Volts Shield) to make up for my disadvantage that I have to hit a lot of bullets. If I see that my AoE build doesn't work well together with a Chroma, then I just change my loadout. The most weapons and Warframes are viable, it just matters how you play them, just like you said.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Feyangol

[Azarakidragon]

4 hours ago, HoakinBlackforge said:

And by my experience on many other skill based matchmaking, i think that would make things A LOT WORSE. If the pvp playerbase isnt big enough, you wont be able to find matches ever.

 

Yeah, this is 100% true, and it's very unfortunate that Conclave is stuck in this catch-22 where matchmaking would bring more people to the game, but there aren't really enough people to properly implement matchmaking without making lobbies impossible to find. That's why I think we need dedicated servers so badly; I know a lot of people, including friends, who would actually play conclave if it wasn't forced onto Peer to Peer hosting. 

[HoakinBlackforge]

I just feel that pvp needs more counterplay mechanics, because right now you cant do too much to countering another player who can move much faster than you. No matter how tanky you are.

[rickyrtrdo]

3 hours ago, HoakinBlackforge said:

I just feel that pvp needs more counterplay mechanics, because right now you cant do too much to countering another player who can move much faster than you. No matter how tanky you are.

Helllllloooooo?

We just got told by 3 different good pvpers that they win matches with tanky low mobility setups.

Yet you keep repeating the same thing over and over.  In one ear and out the other.

 

[Witchydragon]

3 hours ago, HoakinBlackforge said:

I just feel that pvp needs more counterplay mechanics, because right now you cant do too much to countering another player who can move much faster than you. No matter how tanky you are.

Counterplay is more having skill than the other guy. Other than that, there's ability spam. You can spam 4 or even 5 teslas on an area, spam EB in a corridor, wait for the guy to walk into a big fight and bladestorm someone staying still, and a load of other gimmicks (even though they need to be changed to be less stupid). But conclave is not a rock-paper-scissors game or cards, skill is what (should) win games, not luck or having the best loadouts. 

[(PSN)L-B-H-100]

all warframes should have the same mobility as well as armor, health, and shields.

warframes should only be specific to their role based on their abilities.

Chroma has vex armor, Rhino has iron skin, Atlas has...whatever turns him into a golum, and that makes them all tanks.

 

ive also shared a fair amount of expirance in Cephalon capture to see that mobility needs some attention. imagine loki or two loki's going back and forth, reaching both ends of the map in seconds.

limitation is what we may need. per say, a players mobility would gradually slow down based on the number of bullet jumps and double jumps preformed.

and whatever the devs do, dont make the final decision based on the players this time, most of us are very dependent on mobility and would rather keep it. thus, we go no where.

point is, something needs to change or else conclave just has no future. something besides weapon weapon balancing, we need something more critical to change whether we like it or not. i have seen no multiplayer game that didnt make drastic changes in order to get where they are now.

all i know, is that i hate and a good number others hate conclave the way it is now, and would prefer change over nothing at all.

why don't i just quit conclave? cause that syandana looks awesome!

 

i also find it amusing that some people object so harshly to change due to their over-dependence in the specific subject such as heavy melee, mobility, and light machine guns. its literally the only reason why you would object!

Edited April 12, 2016 by (PS4)L-B-H-100
preaching....and reasons.

[HoakinBlackforge]

9 hours ago, rickyrtrdo said:

Helllllloooooo?

We just got told by 3 different good pvpers that they win matches with tanky low mobility setups.

Yet you keep repeating the same thing over and over.  In one ear and out the other.

 

Because they mostly use their weapons for combat.

 

But for chroma, none of his abilities have any range, and its movement is much slower compared to other frames.

[_BUSHIDO_]

5 hours ago, (PS4)L-B-H-100 said:

all warframes should have the same mobility as well as armor, health, and shields

We already have tried this but doesn't work really well, It was harder than It is now due to high damage weps And supersonicspeed frames.

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)L-B-H-100 said:

omething needs to change or else conclave just has no future

I've heard this since 2,0 was introduced and still, here we are. Maybe the playerbase isn't huge but It is fine.

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)L-B-H-100 said:

 

all i know, is that i hate and a good number others hate conclave the way it is now, and would prefer change over nothing at all.

Look, We as conclave community would love that more people could join Conclave and enjoy It as we do. But we don't want angry and salty/Toxic players who Just join to smash people with meta gears and stuff Just because "skins and syandana"

5 hours ago, (PS4)L-B-H-100 said:

why don't i just quit conclave? cause that syandana looks awesome!

 

Here we are, You lost my respect. This sounds to me like a "I want dat syandana, please make the game easier so I can grind faster". Sorry dude, is Not my problem if You are Not Good enough to learn exactly what me and other hundreds of players have managed to learn with efforts and hours playing (Not more than 15 for me which is average I guess and is Not that much). When It started my k/d was 1,2 and now is 3,4. 

You came here because of syandana? GIT GUD BRUh

You Came here with good suggestions to improve the game for everyone? (Btw lowering mobility is Not a good thing because if people will be slowed down, players with deadly aim like phasedragon will destroy Even more) Than You are welcome.

Peace.

[Lordricker]

8 hours ago, (PS4)L-B-H-100 said:

 

ive also shared a fair amount of expirance in Cephalon capture to see that mobility needs some attention. imagine loki or two loki's going back and forth, reaching both ends of the map in seconds.

The whole idea of CtC is to get from one side to the other as fast as possible so yea there will be loki's with max speed builds in there, but those loki's also get 1 or two shot by like every weapon

[(PSN)L-B-H-100]

6 hours ago, _BUSHIDO_ said:

We already have tried this but doesn't work really well, It was harder than It is now due to high damage weps And supersonicspeed frames.

 

I've heard this since 2,0 was introduced and still, here we are. Maybe the playerbase isn't huge but It is fine.

 

Look, We as conclave community would love that more people could join Conclave and enjoy It as we do. But we don't want angry and salty/Toxic players who Just join to smash people with meta gears and stuff Just because "skins and syandana"

Here we are, You lost my respect. This sounds to me like a "I want dat syandana, please make the game easier so I can grind faster". Sorry dude, is Not my problem if You are Not Good enough to learn exactly what me and other hundreds of players have managed to learn with efforts and hours playing (Not more than 15 for me which is average I guess and is Not that much). When It started my k/d was 1,2 and now is 3,4. 

You came here because of syandana? GIT GUD BRUh

You Came here with good suggestions to improve the game for everyone? (Btw lowering mobility is Not a good thing because if people will be slowed down, players with deadly aim like phasedragon will destroy Even more) Than You are welcome.

Peace.

so you would much rather have conclave the way it is now than have it change at all?

the syandana but an example. i can sense that a lot of people can relate. i could want more mods, i could want more exilus mods, i could want anything else, but despite this, i wouldn't even care if they even decreased the standing reward each game.

i really want conclave to be more fun and less annoying. because right now, it is not fun. and even if you were to tell me ways how it is, it usually involves running around with a jat kitag.

k/d was always a broken subject in gameing. the true point behind it is that you get kills while getting killed.

if you mean players like you have learned the ropes due to constant hours of playing, than you mean that you have and those players have resulted to using the games unbalanced weaponry. that's usually the case for all players whom have been playing conclave for a long time. 

there are always going to be two sides.

[(PSN)L-B-H-100]

3 hours ago, Lordricker said:

The whole idea of CtC is to get from one side to the other as fast as possible so yea there will be loki's with max speed builds in there, but those loki's also get 1 or two shot by like every weapon

thats a little bit of over-exaggeration to prove a point.

the lokis mentioned are an example of all agility frames.

[iquaniqua]

Maybe make the +mobility take more ehp and the - mobility add more, or just buff the ehp of slower frames, i don't really want pvp to be slower

[_BUSHIDO_]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)L-B-H-100 said:

i really want conclave to be more fun and less annoying. because right now, it is not fu

This is your personal opinion which is fine But for a Lot of People the game is fun And unique due to its movement system which want to nerf hard.

24 minutes ago, (PS4)L-B-H-100 said:

 

if you mean players like you have learned the ropes due to constant hours of playing, than you mean that you have and those players have resulted to using the games unbalanced weaponry.

We have learnt how To play because we did for dedication,  because slow paced pve tends to be Boring and because like in many pvp Games pvp is fun. And we like playing against other people.Period.

Not because we wanted to grind syandanas or other cosmetics stuff. Now You even claim that I've used cheap and broken weapons But My Main weapon is Daikyu. 

Il You wanted to play slow paced games with gdr stuff in It go play destiny or cod. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by _BUSHIDO_

[Auramaru]

This thread has gone so far downhill. So many good conclavers are posting as if this thread were a plea to nerf your beloved Mirages, Vaubans, etc.

Then you fall back on - what I already said in the OP - "Oh, well I went 25-2 as Frost once, so that means you're wrong! Tanks are viable" 

Get real.

You think it's a valid sample when someone like Phasedragon, a player from Mystere, or "X" destroys with a slow frame? No, it isn't. You people spend hundreds of hours in the conclaves and could probably win a game solely based on gunplay, even if you weren't moving.

I asked for tanks to be made slightly tankier, because in my opinion (which is the opinion of a mid-tier player), mobile warframes dominate the scene. It seems like you're all reluctant to any notion of change in the meta. Becoming complacent with the metagame isn't a good thing.

I hope you guys figure out at some point that the balance between <Mirage, Vauban, and Loki> and <Frost, Chroma, Wukong, Oberon, etc> is laughable to everyone outside of your elite circle-jerk