Contention: Lunaro Resources Should Have Been Dedicated to Conclave

[NoeleVeerod]

Conclave will never be big so long as the general feedback is "PvP is stupid please remove it" and nothing else.

You aren't even trying to suggest improvements, and yet you toss the blame to those who actually play it, experience it and suggest ideas to improve it, for experienced players and new players alike FYI.

Who is toxic now?

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

5 hours ago, Aura said:

Lunaro will be big.

It hits on something that I've mentioned a few times on the forums, which is this "thought/behavior conditioning" that PVE teaches players:
-You don't die often.
-You kill a lot of S#&$.
-You work as a team.

And Conclave, as it always has been and how it is now, goes completely against those conditioned thoughts of Warframe. You die a lot in conclave, you aren't the "big, bad-&#! hero" in conclave. Conclave doesn't make you feel like a key component to saving the universe, it dips you into the vile slime that is competitive gaming. It's such a rude awakening from the fantasy which is "the Warframe Grind".

Something that I think you, @Krysyth, have figured out is that Lunaro will kill Conclave. Not only figuratively, but Lunaro (if executed properly) will make the Conclave system a ghost town and another long-forgotten system that the developers will have tossed out the window.

Personally, I think DE has realized that PVP in the form of a competitive atmosphere simply doesn't match the tone of their game. Which is great because it's true, and their vision of a proper PVP system will finally come through. But it's also a horrific nail in the coffin for anyone who has a competitive mindset. 

Let me be clear: If you don't think DE would delete Conclave as is, you're wrong.

Hundreds of players played old conclave and loved it for the competitive, whacky nature of it. DE removed it, trashed it, and deleted it overnight without addressing those who loved the gamemode at all. The did not acknowledge that anyone played/liked the old gamemode ONCE throughout the entire process of Conclave 2.0 being shoved into the game.

And before anyone says I'm getting ahead of myself, simply look at all the dead "systems" DE has left as a trail of evidence. Syndicate hasn't been updated at all for months. Focus hasn't been updated. These are BIG, integral systems of gameplay - and you don't think they'd drop PVP, a non-essential gamemode like it was nothing? Get real.

TL;DR: Players receiving highly-valued PVP rewards for non-PVP gameplay is trashy and lame. Lunaro will be the inevitable demise of Conclave, and DE needs to (but probably won't) address the concerns of people within the PVP community FOR ONCE IN THE HISTORY OF THE PVP COMMUNITY about the future of the gamemode they LOVE.

GG DE, Step on Conclave again without addressing the people who actually like it.

Nail on the head.

It would be nice if DE just added the old nodes again. To make the players happy and to add more variety.

Lunaro will kill conclave no doubt. But hey if theres an easier way to get my conclave skins im okay with it.

What de should have done is keep the old nodes for the vets, and then create the conclave and design it around the casual player. This is anothet example of DE making pointless radical changes and diving head first into the impossible.

[-dB-ManicReign]

Most detail I've seen/heard of this Linaros yet.

[Thalahssalyst]

Hundreds of players played old conclave and loved it for the competitive, whacky nature of it. DE removed it, trashed it, and deleted itovernight without addressing those who loved the gamemode at all. The did not acknowledge that anyone played/liked the old gamemode ONCE throughout the entire process of Conclave 2.0 being shoved into the game.

Really?
Hundreds?
Nice joke...

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

45 minutes ago, Grimlock- said:

Hundreds of players played old conclave and loved it for the competitive, whacky nature of it. DE removed it, trashed it, and deleted itovernight without addressing those who loved the gamemode at all. The did not acknowledge that anyone played/liked the old gamemode ONCE throughout the entire process of Conclave 2.0 being shoved into the game.

Really?
Hundreds?
Nice joke...

There were 2 main warframe clans that played pvp. And at least 5-8 other clans that had pvp players. In addition to the independent players.

SFU and GearHart had at least 100 pvp players, the affiliated others numbered to at least 40, and the independents like 30. And thats only the NA region, lets not forget the africa, euro and chinese pvpers.

So yes hundreds. Not 1000+ but I can safely slay at least 400-700.

[Thalahssalyst]

O yes, thats why the old pvp nodes ever was like a ghost town?
Everyone knows that...

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Just now, Grimlock- said:

O yes, thats why the old pvp nodes ever was like a ghost town?
Everyone knows that...

Like now? because more people play pvp now.

If anything its almost the same amount, when 16 came out a bunch of guys quit and a bunch of new ones came in. It has not changed

[Thalahssalyst]

I dont have problems finding matches like before where Hundreds was playing...

[HoakinBlackforge]

2 hours ago, Grimlock- said:

I dont have problems finding matches like before where Hundreds was playing...

When the recruitment balance came, now i can barely find matches. This clearly shows there isnt enough players actually.

[Krysyth]

On 4/23/2016 at 5:21 PM, HoakinBlackforge said:

THIS, is so wrong.

Conclave right now doesnt feel unique at all compared to other arena shooters. Abilities, being able to go full melee, the access to modify your weapons as you want while combining all of that together is what made pvp unique in the first place.

Right now? Melee is dead (air melee its just a excuse), no other other way of playing is encouraged (lack of counterplay), and abilities are mostly worthless. (I barely see people use abilities)

And pvp in warframe right now HAS NO CHANCE to become another stupid Esports competitive game, stop dreaming, because we have enough already with CSGO. Stop the elitism already because you are becoming like a plague, forcing others to play the way they dont want to.

Didn't pass out while diverting mental resources from breathing to write this absurd sh*tpost? Pity.

Unfortunately, it's a wasted effort. Conclave has significant three-dimensional mobility, and both abilities and full melee are both present and extremely significant, which differentiates it significantly from many other arena shooters. Couple that with the high magnitude of mobility and you get something that, at least in my view, is much more engaging than your average game of Unreal.

Melee is not even remotely close to dead - but you and I are just bad at it. Air melee does need to be more robust, though, as does melee in general, but describing melee as "dead" is absurdly disingenuous. As for abilities, they are alive and well - every Volt you see with shields and lightning, every Mesa using Ballistic Battery to nuke you with some pissant gun, those are abilities. And while some abilities are more noticeable and game-changing than others, they are still there, constantly.

I have no disposition on Conclave becoming competitive in the professional sense. It may have been before you learned to walk, but there was once a time when people played competitive multiplayer games solely for the sake of fun. Why do you think most people play CSGO, CoD, or Halo anyway? Most people are not delusional - they know that they will never be competitive pro-players - but they play regardless because it is enjoyable to do so. I just want to see Conclave receive at least some part of the investment that I think it deserves, which I believe - based on casual extrapolation from observations of Conclave as it is - could help make it into a very robust and engaging part of the game, and another reason to play Warframe.

As for elitism... when did this become the sniveling sops' watchword of the month? In no part of the original argument or any of my responses to other posts do I talk at all about player skill. I just talk about the problems between DE and the general Conclave playerbase, and why I think Lunaro is insulting to those who enjoy and support Conclave more avidly than DE does.

On 4/24/2016 at 1:01 AM, Nariala said:

You have no real evidence to show that they aren't also working on conclave still though. You can be concerned, sure. But flat out going "how dare you do another mode while my unpopular mode continues to be unpopular, why won't you magically fix all the core problems" isn't really good feedback. 

 

It's not that they are not working on Conclave. Let me break it down:

• to make Lunaro, resources for a competitive game mode must have existed somewhere and needed to be allocated - which they were, to the Lunaro project.
• Considering the workflow of literally any product whatsoever, those resources can be generalized to money, labor hours, and, more abstractly, commitment.
• Conclave has popularity issues because people perceive it to be imbalanced, niche, underdeveloped, riddled with hosting issues - all things that are, in various magnitude, probably reasonable to assert.
• Fixing those Conclave issues would require labor hours, money, and commitment.
• Conclave has existed for quite some time, and many dedicated members of the community continually post meaningful feedback and make constructive suggestions such that money, labor hours, and commitment could be applied efficiently to a few of the outstanding problems of the game mode. 
• Instead, money, labor hours, and commitment were directed toward developing Lunaro, which as a competitive game mode accessing the same rewards will necessary be in direct competition for player population and attention with Conclave.

Even if Conclave receives regular updates, those updates are not (as almost everything post U18 has demonstrated materially) always good for the game mode's balance, population, and so on. The development of Lunaro represents a loss for Conclave in a zero-sum game of resource allocation, and the outcomes (Lunaro tanks, Lunaro soars, Lunaro/Conclave parity) are never going to be good for Conclave.

As I am a fan of Conclave, I find this displeasing. I am not asking for magical fixes, I am merely asking that DE pay attention - tangibly so - and invest in Conclave to try to make it better, because it could be a very fun and engaging game mode... but not without appropriate attention.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Krysyth

[rockscl]

i think this idea of lunaro killing conclave is wrong, if more people plays pvp dedicated servers could become a thing, also unlike darksectors conclave is a comparatively simple thing that doesnt affect the game´s and clans´s economy in such a macro level, so they should not have a reason to remove it just like they dont have a reason to remove dojo dueling nor flappyzephyr, the biggest limitation for conclave is p2p, its transversal to so many problems that lunaro actually gives me hope in regards of the future of conclave

Edited April 25, 2016 by rockscl

[LordOfScrugging]

On 4/23/2016 at 4:11 PM, Krysyth said:

Those games are better because they have resources and attention dedicated to them. Conclave could also be a superb PvP shooter... if DE is willing to build it into one.

Sorry, but this is where i'd have to disagree. Conclave is nearly perfect where it is. I wouldn't want the devs to devote more resources into something that isn't anywhere near the main focus. sure have your little arena shooter. but it should be some side thing that DE can operate on the side, doing little updates here and there to keep it from going stale for you guys. Not some massive thing that takes resources from the majority of the game. Now I'm not saying conclave and those that enjoy it can jump off a bridge, but the truth of the matter is most of the community doesn't play it cause it's not what they signed up to do. There are a plethora of other options for more dedicated PvP.

[LordOfScrugging]

On 4/23/2016 at 4:11 PM, Krysyth said:

Those games are better because they have resources and attention dedicated to them. Conclave could also be a superb PvP shooter... if DE is willing to build it into one.

Sorry, but this is where i'd have to disagree. Conclave is nearly perfect where it is. I wouldn't want the devs to devote more resources into something that isn't anywhere near the main focus. sure have your little arena shooter. but it should be some side thing that DE can operate on the side, doing little updates here and there to keep it from going stale for you guys. Not some massive thing that takes resources from the majority of the game. Now I'm not saying conclave and those that enjoy it can jump off a bridge, but the truth of the matter is most of the community doesn't play it cause it's not what they signed up to do. There are a plethora of other options for more dedicated PvP.

[JonBenj]

5 hours ago, Grimlock- said:

O yes, thats why the old pvp nodes ever was like a ghost town?
Everyone knows that...

 

Whoa, deja vu...

I never ever saw you in 1.0, I played everyday, no Grimlock (unless you went under another name)

As E7 pointed out there were two main clans who's players all were Conclave regulars, this isn't counting the non affiliates, like myself.

 

 

 

[Azarakidragon]

Alright, I'll try to respond to as many things as I can remember. Also, keep in mind that I don't know if this all has to do with the actual Conclave development team's inability to properly tend to Conclave, or if the higher-ups are simply preventing them from doing so.

The resource point is pretty true. Honestly, I'm willing to bet that introducing server infrastructure for Conclave (Again, could even be as simple as letting the community host servers, like old FPS games used to do) would be cheaper overall (time and money) than creating and working around Lunaro. Then you have to ask if Lunaro will be worth it.

The idea of Lunaro isn't necessarily a bad one; a new PvP game mode that DE will, theoretically, pay attention to (kek). The goal is to get more players into PvP and make it more active. This base idea is pretty neat and could work, especially if it ends up introducing a little more strategy.

The problem I have, and that I'm willing to bet many other Conclavers have, is that I doubt DE can do it properly. Currently, the track record for anything PvP-related that DE does includes a complete lack of transparency and interaction. On top of that, every time we've heard about Lunaro, it sounds like the kind of thing where everyone is a winner, nobody should feel bad, and the kind of thing that caters to the casual playerbase. Let's explore some problems with that kind of mentality.

First of all, I'm not saying that only the winner should have fun, but there's a clear line between making the game itself fun, and making it so that anyone can win; catering to the casual playerbase.

One problem is that no matter what you do, the players who are more skilled and more dedicated are going to win, and if matchmade against far less skilled players, they'll stomp. That's the nature of a shooter. From there, the more casual players are still going to complain and blame the game; that it's too mobile. And if mobility gets nerfed, then the good players can start aiming for headshots, and then those will be nerfed somehow, and if you keep following this cycle, you end up with a game that poses no challenge that everyone gets bored of rather quickly, since winning becomes meaningless. You don't eliminate boosting in Rocket League because some people can do aerials better than others, yet the boost is one of the major things that separates good players from bad players, and that game is doing fine.

 

I doubt DE are ignorant enough to believe that constantly dumbing down the game is a good course of action. So as far as I can reason through it, I think DE is creating Lunaro because they're tired of hearing complaints from players about how they want Conclave rewards/cosmetics without having to work for them. However, they realize that they can't just start giving them away, otherwise that would upset those who did complain, but still eventually "forced themselves" to get the items. So this is their clever way around that by providing a "PvP" experience that boils down to the standard casual Warframe grind. Thus, the complainers get the cosmetics without having to try, they can still theoretically be called "PvP rewards", and those who already have the cosmetics won't angrily complain to DE about how their hard work went to waste or something. 

If I'm right, then rethink the core ideas behind Lunaro, make it an actual PvP game mode, and get rid of the casual mentality. If I'm wrong, then let DE call me wrong, and explain their intentions without the vague buzz-words and PR jargon. It would be more feedback and interaction then we've gotten on this subforum all year outside of the occasional locking of a thread.

[Thalahssalyst]

7 hours ago, JonBenj said:

 

Whoa, deja vu...
Matrix Problems

 

I never ever saw you in 1.0, I played everyday, no Grimlock (unless you went under another name)

As E7 pointed out there were two main clans who's players all were Conclave regulars, this isn't counting the non affiliates, like myself.

 

 

 

I never saw you benj, i dont know why....Every time i wanted to play, never find a match, thats strange because hundreds was playing that awesome old game mode...

Edited April 25, 2016 by Grimlock-

[Rhaenxys]

On 23/4/2016 at 11:21 PM, HoakinBlackforge said:

THIS, is so wrong.

Conclave right now doesnt feel unique at all compared to other arena shooters. Abilities, being able to go full melee, the access to modify your weapons as you want while combining all of that together is what made pvp unique in the first place.

Right now? Melee is dead (air melee its just a excuse), no other other way of playing is encouraged (lack of counterplay), and abilities are mostly worthless. (I barely see people use abilities)

And pvp in warframe right now HAS NO CHANCE to become another stupid Esports competitive game, stop dreaming, because we have enough already with CSGO. Stop the elitism already because you are becoming like a plague, forcing others to play the way they dont want to.

Cant agree more with this post.

Due to ... i dont how to call them without being rude but lets say "elitist players", conclave has become a very generic PvP game, melee and weapons with travel time have a very difficult time hitting players (except daikyu) because the current mobility can be spammed with no limitations at very high speed, then there was a thread about reducing this mobility in some way and every "competitive player" was against, no wonder why the meta "daikyu + bullet jump" exists.

There was also a thread to nerf ALL powers in terms of damage "because they are dishonorable to use because they dont require skill" according to some people, it was just a nonsense, most powers damage arent that high and they deserve their damage, they cost a finite source afterall.

Now we will have lunaro for fun and conclave for some "competitive PvP" so what is the problem of using resources for a fun mode? im pretty sure the regular conclave wouldnt be left into the dust because of lunaro, this thread is just pure egoism.

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Rhaenxys

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

6 hours ago, Azarakidragon said:

-snip-

If I'm right, then rethink the core ideas behind Lunaro, make it an actual PvP game mode, and get rid of the casual mentality. If I'm wrong, then let DE call me wrong, and explain their intentions without the vague buzz-words and PR jargon. 

You are wrong, casual players don't play a game like warframe to then go to a competitive pvp after. PvP in this game is for a niche, nothing more.

Warframe needs this, because after all its main focus is to cater to it's pve fanbase. And the current pvp, does not. IT doesn't even cater to competitive players. It caters to masochists who need to play a ridiculous amount to get remotely good, and it does not provide any joy and fun until you reach that point. Even then it's still not enjoyable.

There's no "necessary changes that need to be made" literally every single problem in this game was not a problem once in the old conclave. The good gameplay choices from 1.0 were sacrificed for balance and more "features". Look what we have now, its basically Armored Core FA without the lock on system, and that kind of game breeds nothing but frustration, dissatisfaction to the point where people only play for skins and mods and most importantly toxicity.

If the avid conclave players want to make conclave good keep the balance work with powers and such. But when it comes to everything else, why doesn't DE listen to the people who actually used to play their game? Why didn't DE acknowledge, the players who have spent hundreds of hours on the old conclaves, despite its poor advertisement, extremely negative stigma and no attention from the devs? Why didn't DE ask us SFU, GEARHART, and INDIE players "Hey why do you play conclave?"

This was just like the karak nerf back then, everyone asked to keep the karak but buff everything else, and what happened the exact opposite. We had a good conclave mode, it was in the game pre u16 and that's all we will ever get unless people understand that the legacy version, despite it's flaws had the highest player retention, and the highest professional player count in the game. And just like now, people were more than happy to teach others, DESPITE DE not advertising conclave properly and not doing anything to balance it, it was all in the hands of the players.

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 8:00 PM, Krysyth said:

Title says it all, folks. But for substance, here's my diatribe.

The Conclave Feedback forum appears to be one of the most vocal and involved in the game; look at other feedback forums and see how slowly threads slowly creep toward graveyard pages because nobody posts. Here, a thread without responses is buried in one or two days.

This is because the Conclave player community gives a damn, and wants DE to know that.

At the same time, there seems to be a considerable dearth of developer posts on this forum. Sparse responses, elucidations, any content at all. Why is communication so one-sided? Why do the balance changes in Conclave sometimes seem like such massive blindsides? Thundermiter and the pointless arrow flight-speed buff came out of nowhere and did very little, if anything, to address existing community concerns from then-relevant threads or to improve in any way the state of Conclave. 

Talk to us!

Now, on the horizon we have a new "sport" called Lunaro, a new competitive game mode which appears to be aimed at appealing to players who are not interested in PvP. So, essentially, a new and entirely different type of PvP play that will directly compete with Conclave and that is ostensibly aimed at players who do not want to do PvP in the first place.

Uh, what?

Last I checked, Conclave still needs some love. It needs servers, it needs more robust and meaningful challenges, it needs map selection options, it needs more varied maps, the list goes on and on and on...

So why are the problems of Conclave not being addressed?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

DE is coming out with an alternate competitive mode that will sap player interest and development resources from the activity that they have supported with unceasing ardor. 

But what should be done?

In the spirit of constructive feedback, I propose the following:

• Improve communication with the Conclave playerbase
• Dedicate the time, effort, and money earmarked for the Lunaros project to Conclave

Agreed. 110%

[Azarakidragon]

The problem is still the lack of matchmaking and dedicated servers. Yeah, it's not fun to get stomped, but in every other game ever (hyperbole), you're not playing against people who are several times your skill level. "Playing a ridiculous amount to get remotely good" describes lots of games, it just doesn't feel that way because you're always playing against people of equal skill. If you jumped into CounterStrike and the only people playing were the likes of Fnatic, then yeah, it would certainly feel like you have to dedicate too much time to have fun with the game. Right now, there's nothing stopping you from playing the best players in the game as soon as you're out of Recruit Conditioning, which by the way, is incredibly poorly advertised that many players don't even know about it.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Azarakidragon

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Just now, Azarakidragon said:

The problem is still the lack of matchmaking and dedicated servers. Yeah, it's not fun to get stomped, but in every other game ever (hyperbole), you're not playing against people who are several times your level. "Playing a ridiculous amount to get remotely good" describes lots of games, it just doesn't feel that way because you're always playing against people of equal skill. If you jumped into CounterStrike and the only people playing were the likes of Fnatic, then yeah, it would certainly feel like you have to dedicate too much time to have fun with the game. Right now, there's nothing stopping you from playing the best players in the game as soon as you're out of Recruit Conditioning, which by the way, is incredibly poorly advertised that many players don't even know about it.

Ranking dont matter when the game is still uninviting for new players. 

[rockscl]

the game is uninviting because people is matched against players that are out of their league

Edited April 25, 2016 by rockscl

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

1 hour ago, rockscl said:

the game is uninviting because people is matched against players that are out of their league

Even at that, the game's skill curve is too steep for a game made for pve players. This steepness only satisfies a small niche audience.

The populations prove it because if the game was actually satisfying people would stay

[-InV-igo95862]

1 hour ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Even at that, the game's skill curve is too steep for a game made for pve players. This steepness only satisfies a small niche audience.

The populations prove it because if the game was actually satisfying people would stay

Weren't you the one who wanted more mobility? Why the sudden change?

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

1 hour ago, -InV-igo95862 said:

Weren't you the one who wanted more mobility? Why the sudden change?

Skill curve does not only attribute to mobility. My argument still stands that warframe's mobility is needed to define it. 

But forced combo killing and ttk in conjunction with the movement is what makes the game uninviting and puts too much pressure on the average player.