Rethinking Ash

[Sajochi]

All around the forums I see thread after thread about suggestions for an Ash rework. Some are good, some are less than good. All of this talk got me thinking, how can Ask be redone to make him even more fun than he is, without completely destroying his identity. I thought for a good week on this before it dawned on me. So have the fruits of my brain labor.

 

Passive - Deadly Arts

Ash has mastered the art of the kill, and gets a 15% damage increase on all silent weapons, and a 20% damage increase on melee stealth takedowns.

• Applies to weapons with Hush and Suppress as long as the weapon's Noise Level is Silent.
• The 20% increase only applies to stealth takedowns, not general  finishers (Such as from Naramon passive or enemies taken down after they are alerted).

 

Shuriken
Tweaks:

• Synergizes with Smokescreen (see changes below). Shurikens that pass through smokescreen will blind enemies within the smoke for an 8s fixed duration.¹
• Shurikens can be casted while teleporting.¹
• Scales with secondary weapon mods to further increase usefulness.² Damage reduced to 200 Slash damage per shuriken to take into account mod scaling. Has 20% crit chance, 2x critical damage multiplier, and 35-50%³ status chance.

¹Changes made from SquidTheSid's suggestions
²Secondary Scaling suggested by OzoneSlayer
³Currently debatable

 

This ability is perfect as a first ability. Simple application and a great way to introduce a player to Ash. It's power from the start is not overbearing, and it retains its usefulness in the late game with the armor reducing augment.

 

Smoke Screen  
A couple tweaks:

• Tapping ability key will cause Ash to use Smoke Screen as is. Holding ability key will cause Ash to throw a smoke bomb to where he targets.¹
• Enemies within the smokescreen are open to finishers. Enemies are also hit by "Friendly-Fire"
• Enemy projectiles entering the smoke will take a 25% accuracy penalty_.¹ (Cannot be increased through modding)
• The Smoke now lingers for a duration (5/9/13/17s). Can be increased with power duration mods. Entering the smokescreen smoke reapplies Ash's stealth for 30% reduced duration (Activates upon entering the smoke's hitbox.) Augment can only apply stealth to allies twice, and has a fixed duration (can no longer be increased by duration.)

¹Changes from SquidTheSid's suggestions

Simple tweaks for more varied gameplay. Two casting styles gives Ash more tools to deal with groups of enemies while also providing support for allies.

Teleport
Tweaks

• No longer requires a target to teleport.
• When targeting a wall, Ash will automatically wall latch with the camera facing away from the wall.
• When targeting an enemy, Ash will automatically teleport behind them while performing a finisher at a 50% increased animation speed Added as Augment in 18.11.0 without increased animation speed
• No longer alerts enemies when used on them (doesn't apply if an enemy has already seen you, or you dove in a group)
• Same function when targeting an ally

This has been suggested in a ton of rework threads for Ash, and I believe the more people ask for this, the greater chance we see it happening. We got it for Volt's riot shield, we can try for this. This ability is a neat part of Ash's kit as it allowed him to be highly mobile, but the enemy targeting was just weird to play with, and you needed to have good reflexes to get off the finisher attack (noticing Ash has a lot to do with finisher damage). With the proposed tweaks, Ash retains his mobility while also granting tools to allow him to get better vantage points, as well as a more reliable single target ability.

 

Blade Storm

Before I go into the proposed tweaks, this ability is one of the most debated ones I have seen. It's incredibly fun to use and feels really powerful, but can lose its appeal after a few goes with it. This makes most missions a "Press 4 for cutscene" scenario, which is not intuitive gameplay. I do believe I have cracked the code for making this ability still feel fun without taking away what we've all grown used to. So, let's get into it.

Tweaks:

• No longer targeted. Cast range is centered on Ash
• Ash summons 3 clones that target 9/11/13/18 enemies within a 10/15/20/25m range. Ash does not teleport with clones. The third clone is what used to be Ash.
• Summoned clones have a higher threat level. Enemies are more likely to target the clones¹
• targeted enemies no longer invulnerable to ally damage. If a marked enemy is slain before they are killed by a clone, a new enemy will be marked within 10m of the slain enemy.¹ This can only happen once per marked enemy. Reacquired marks will not contribute to this.

¹Changes from SquidTheSid's suggestions

A little explanation with that last part. The main issue with blade storm was the fact that Ash is pretty much taken out of the game, while still decimating groups of enemies. This ultimate is the ultimate win button, and has no drawbacks, making a low-risk, high reward system that feels good at first, but loses its appeal. By having Ash spawn three clones that seek out enemies, you're keeping Blade Storm ideally the same, while also putting Ash in a spot where he can still be in fights, and support his team. The center cast makes it so it meshes well with his other abilities.

 

So, let's go over a typical warframe scenario. You're running a solo exterminate mission against some grineer. The first room has two soldiers, so you use a couple well place shots from your silenced weapon, taking advantage of the increased damage bonus. The next room is quite large, and you haven't been spotted yet. You teleport to a wall to get a better vantage point and notice this room contains six visible enemies. You notice a group of three and throw a smoke bomb at them, causing them to be stunned while you toss a shuriken at another two, and teleport to the lone wandering one, taking them out with ease. You sprint to your smoke screen to take your invisibility buff and get some melee finishers on the three that are still in the smoke. You missed one enemy, who hits the alarm, but you dispatch them and decide to continue without resetting the security (as we all tend to do that when we want the mission to be interesting.) Now the next room has a large amount of really angry enemies, all firing at you. You notice that one is an eximus. You teleport to the eximus unit, taking them out, and on landing, you hit your smokescreen and then your ult. Your clones appear after a brief animation, and then they go on a rampage, while you teleport to a wall out of the line of fire to watch the carnage unfold and provide some additional damage with your weapon of choice from your new angle.

 

There you have it. If you have any thoughts or suggestions, feel free to add them in the comments.

 

Changelog

Spoiler

5/11/16

• removed Teleport finisher on TP due to augment added

5/8/2016

• Added range for status chance on Shuriken do to varying opinions.

5/7/2016

• Changed Shuriken synergy with teleport and smokescreen as per suggestions
• Changed Smokescreen casting descriptions. Added accuracy penalty as well as friendly-fire trigger
• Changed Blade Storm to include increased threat level for clones, as well as added ally trigger
• Cleaned things up for easier reading
• Added Secondary Scaling to shuriken

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2016 by CrazyCortex
Added Suggestions

[Aquasurge]

4 hours ago, CrazyCortex said:

All around the forums I see thread after thread about suggestions for an Ash rework. Some are good, some are less than good. All of this talk got me thinking, how can Ask be redone to make him even more fun than he is, without completely destroying his identity. I thought for a good week on this before it dawned on me. So have the fruits of my brain labor.

 

Passive - Deadly Arts

Ash has mastered the art of the kill, and gets a 15% damage increase on all silent weapons, and a 20% damage increase on melee stealth takedowns.

Applies to weapons with Hush and Suppress as long as the weapon's Noise Level is Silent.

The 20% increase only applies to stealth takedowns, not general  finishers (Such as from Naramon passive or enemies taken down after they are alerted).

 

Shuriken - Kept the same

This ability is perfect as a first ability. Simple application and a great way to introduce a player to Ash. It's power from the start is not overbearing, and it retains its usefulness in the late game with the armor reducing augment.

 

Smoke Screen  
A couple tweaks:

-When cast on the ground, it's acts the same. When cast in the air, or while wall latching, Ash will throw the smoke bomb to wherever he is targeting.

-Enemies within the smokescreen are open to finishers.

-The Smoke now lingers for a duration (5/9/13/17s). Can be increased with power duration mods. Entering the smokescreen smoke reapplies Ash's stealth for 30% reduced duration (Activates upon entering the smoke's hitbox.) Augment can only apply stealth to allies twice, and has a fixed duration (can no longer be increased by duration.)

Simple tweaks for more varied gameplay. Ground casts remain while getting a much needed boost since Ash's stealth is not as strong as other frames with the same mechanic. Air casting allows for more flashy or strategic gameplay, and can help distract a group of enemies while Ash is off taking care of another, or he can jump in the middle and wreak havoc using his new cover.

 

Teleport

Tweaks

-No longer requires a target to teleport.

-When targeting a wall, Ash will automatically wall latch with the camera facing away from the wall.

-When targeting an enemy, Ash will automatically teleport behind them while performing a finisher at a 50% increased animation speed

-No longer alerts enemies when used on them (doesn't apply if an enemy has already seen you, or you dove in a group)

-Same function when targeting an ally

This has been suggested in a ton of rework threads for Ash, and I believe the more people ask for this, the greater chance we see it happening. We got it for Volt's riot shield, we can try for this. This ability is a neat part of Ash's kit as it allowed him to be highly mobile, but the enemy targeting was just weird to play with, and you needed to have good reflexes to get off the finisher attack (noticing Ash has a lot to do with finisher damage). With the proposed tweaks, Ash retains his mobility while also granting tools to allow him to get better vantage points, as well as a more reliable single target ability.

 

Blade Storm

Before I go into the proposed tweaks, this ability is one of the most debated ones I have seen. It's incredibly fun to use and feels really powerful, but can lose its appeal after a few goes with it. This makes most missions a "Press 4 for cutscene" scenario, which is not intuitive gameplay. I do believe I have cracked the code for making this ability still feel fun without taking away what we've all grown used to. So, let's get into it.

-No longer targeted. Cast range is centered on Ash

-Ash summons 3 clones that target 9/11/13/18 enemies within a 10/15/20/25m range. Ash does not teleport with clones. The third clone is what used to be Ash.

A little explanation with that last part. The main issue with blade storm was the fact that Ash is pretty much taken out of the game, while still decimating groups of enemies. This ultimate is the ultimate win button, and has no drawbacks, making a low-risk, high reward system that feels good at first, but loses its appeal. By having Ash spawn three clones that seek out enemies, you're keeping Blade Storm ideally the same, while also putting Ash in a spot where he can still be in fights, and support his team. The center cast makes it so it meshes well with his other abilities.

 

So, let's go over a typical warframe scenario. You're running a solo exterminate mission against some grineer. The first room has two soldiers, so you use a couple well place shots from your silenced weapon, taking advantage of the increased damage bonus. The next room is quite large, and you haven't been spotted yet. You teleport to a wall to get a better vantage point and notice this room contains six visible enemies. You notice a group of three and throw a smoke bomb at them, causing them to be stunned while you toss a shuriken at another two, and teleport to the lone wandering one, taking them out with ease. You sprint to your smoke screen to take your invisibility buff and get some melee finishers on the three that are still in the smoke. You missed one enemy, who hits the alarm, but you dispatch them and decide to continue without resetting the security (as we all tend to do that when we want the mission to be interesting.) Now the next room has a large amount of really angry enemies, all firing at you. You notice that one is an eximus. You teleport to the eximus unit, taking them out, and on landing, you hit your smokescreen and then your ult. Your clones appear after a brief animation, and then they go on a rampage, while you teleport to a wall out of the line of fire to watch the carnage unfold and provide some additional damage with your weapon of choice from your new angle.

 

There you have it. If you have any thoughts or suggestions, feel free to add them in the comments.

 

 

 

 

this is a very smart rework. i will say, could enemies inside smoke screen have an added effect where they are choking on the smoke?

[Xekrin]

4 hours ago, CrazyCortex said:

Ash summons 3 clones that target 9/11/13/18 enemies within a 10/15/20/25m range. Ash does not teleport with clones. The third clone is what used to be Ash.

With a duration, and the clones attack like melee spectres, they can still teleport (mimicking his ability) with LoS.  Ash goes invisible during this duration.  The clones arent immortal but aren't easily killed.  I won't bother with stats for them as anything presented will be shot down one way or another.  But certainly viable end-game at least.  Perhaps they occasionally cast their own smokescreen as well, hell even throw shurikens with innate augment.

There are a lot of viable ways to maintain the current status quo of this ability while breaking down its press4toyawn flow.  It is already being worked on so hopefully something good is in the future for this.

Until then, enjoy the immortality.

 

[Aquasurge]

4 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

With a duration, and the clones attack like melee spectres, they can still teleport (mimicking his ability) with LoS.  Ash goes invisible during this duration.  The clones arent immortal but aren't easily killed.  I won't bother with stats for them as anything presented will be shot down one way or another.  But certainly viable end-game at least.  Perhaps they occasionally cast their own smokescreen as well, hell even throw shurikens with innate augment.

There are a lot of viable ways to maintain the current status quo of this ability while breaking down its press4toyawn flow.  It is already being worked on so hopefully something good is in the future for this.

Until then, enjoy the immortality.

 

yes, that could open up synergy with BS

[SquidTheSid]

7 hours ago, CrazyCortex said:

Passive - Deadly Arts

Ash has mastered the art of the kill, and gets a 15% damage increase on all silent weapons, and a 20% damage increase on melee stealth takedowns.

Applies to weapons with Hush and Suppress as long as the weapon's Noise Level is Silent.

The 20% increase only applies to stealth takedowns, not general  finishers (Such as from Naramon passive or enemies taken down after they are alerted).

Nice passive idea, but it's already datamined that he gets additional damage.duration on slash procs. Both seem solid, though the latter seems more useful in general situations. 

 

3 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

Shuriken - Kept the same

 

Dunno, without the augment mod, it offers little in the way of utility or scaling. I'd say, any enemy hit by the Shuriken gets a forced stagger (similar to what Equinox's maim does). If you really wanted to get creative, you could make it like Ivara's Quiver and give him 4 kinds of Shuriken:

Serrated Shuriken - current version with slash proc

Blazing Shuriken - converts half of base damage into heat damage and deals a fire proc instead of a slash proc. 

Poisoned Shuriken - converts half of the base damage to toxin damage and has a  toxin proc instead of a slash proc. 

Infected Shuriken - converts half of the base damage into viral damage and has a viral proc instead of a slash proc. 

Ash can also target the ground and setup Shuriken "traps" that have no set duration, but expire after a one-time use. 

Also, for some added synergy, shurikens passing through a smoke cloud will blind enemies, and Ash can cash this ability while he's teleporting. 

 

7 hours ago, CrazyCortex said:

Smoke Screen  
A couple tweaks:

-When cast on the ground, it's acts the same. When cast in the air, or while wall latching, Ash will throw the smoke bomb to wherever he is targeting.

-Enemies within the smokescreen are open to finishers.

-The Smoke now lingers for a duration (5/9/13/17s). Can be increased with power duration mods. Entering the smokescreen smoke reapplies Ash's stealth for 30% reduced duration (Activates upon entering the smoke's hitbox.) Augment can only apply stealth to allies twice, and has a fixed duration (can no longer be increased by duration.)

Simple tweaks for more varied gameplay. Ground casts remain while getting a much needed boost since Ash's stealth is not as strong as other frames with the same mechanic. Air casting allows for more flashy or strategic gameplay, and can help distract a group of enemies while Ash is off taking care of another, or he can jump in the middle and wreak havoc using his new cover.

I'd probably change the activation method to "tap to cast smoke bomb as is, hold to throw smoke bomb to location". 

 

I'd probably also add in an accuracy penalty for enemy projectiles/bullets that shoot through the smoke screen, letting it be an effective chokepoint for bullets. 

3 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

Teleport

Solid changes, no issues there. Maybe he could get a pesudo-slash dash effect  where enemies directly within the path of his Teleport get hit by his currently equipped melee weapon and have a forced slash proc? Blinking through a Smoke Screen would also render Ash invisible as well. 

 

7 hours ago, CrazyCortex said:

Blade Storm

 

Do the clones draw aggro from enemies? If so, I feel like this would be a very fair tradeoff for Ash. He's no longer completely invulnerable during Blade Storm, but he gets more damage output (since he can use guns or melee) and he draws aggro away from him, giving him some more survivability. Even if they don't he still has ways to survive and escape, so not too bad of a change. 

Oh, and please make it so that enemies under the effect of Bladestorm aren't immune to ally damage. It's really frustrating as is and makes me hate playing with Ash in pubbies. Perhaps give it another target for free if an ally kills an enemy before the attack animation finishes/deals damage? 

 

But yeah. really solid ideas. I appreciate how you're not completely and totally trying to overhaul Ash into a completely different  frame, but found ways to add synergy and interactiveness into his kit while still retaining his current identity. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by SquidTheSid

[Sajochi]

5 hours ago, Xekrin said:

With a duration, and the clones attack like melee spectres, they can still teleport (mimicking his ability) with LoS.  Ash goes invisible during this duration.  The clones arent immortal but aren't easily killed.  I won't bother with stats for them as anything presented will be shot down one way or another.  But certainly viable end-game at least.  Perhaps they occasionally cast their own smokescreen as well, hell even throw shurikens with innate augment.

There are a lot of viable ways to maintain the current status quo of this ability while breaking down its press4toyawn flow.  It is already being worked on so hopefully something good is in the future for this.

Until then, enjoy the immortality.

 

Since Ash already has invisibility on Smoke Screen, I don't really see a reason to add it on Blade Storm. The clones can still only attack a maximum of 17 times, so there isn't a reason to make them vulnerable to damage. Plus the changes  add a fourth entity of damage: Ash himself. This allows him to still use his weapons and provide support elsewhere while his clones deal with a group. Center casting requires him to dive in the middle of a wave.

 

2 hours ago, SquidTheSid said:

Nice passive idea, but it's already datamined that he gets additional damage.duration on slash procs. Both seem solid, though the latter seems more useful in general situations. 

 

 

Dunno, without the augment mod, it offers little in the way of utility or scaling. I'd say, any enemy hit by the Shuriken gets a forced stagger (similar to what Equinox's maim does). If you really wanted to get creative, you could make it like Ivara's Quiver and give him 4 kinds of Shuriken:

Serrated Shuriken - current version with slash proc

Blazing Shuriken - converts half of base damage into heat damage and deals a fire proc instead of a slash proc. 

Poisoned Shuriken - converts half of the base damage to toxin damage and has a  toxin proc instead of a slash proc. 

Infected Shuriken - converts half of the base damage into viral damage and has a viral proc instead of a slash proc. 

Ash can also target the ground and setup Shuriken "traps" that have no set duration, but expire after a one-time use. 

Also, for some added synergy, shurikens passing through a smoke cloud will blind enemies, and Ash can cash this ability while he's teleporting. 

 

I'd probably change the activation method to "tap to cast smoke bomb as is, hold to throw smoke bomb to location". 

 

I'd probably also add in an accuracy penalty for enemy projectiles/bullets that shoot through the smoke screen, letting it be an effective chokepoint for bullets. 

Solid changes, no issues there. Maybe he could get a pesudo-slash dash effect  where enemies directly within the path of his Teleport get hit by his currently equipped melee weapon and have a forced slash proc? Blinking through a Smoke Screen would also render Ash invisible as well. 

 

Do the clones draw aggro from enemies? If so, I feel like this would be a very fair tradeoff for Ash. He's no longer completely invulnerable during Blade Storm, but he gets more damage output (since he can use guns or melee) and he draws aggro away from him, giving him some more survivability. Even if they don't he still has ways to survive and escape, so not too bad of a change. 

Oh, and please make it so that enemies under the effect of Bladestorm aren't immune to ally damage. It's really frustrating as is and makes me hate playing with Ash in pubbies. Perhaps give it another target for free if an ally kills an enemy before the attack animation finishes/deals damage? 

 

But yeah. really solid ideas. I appreciate how you're not completely and totally trying to overhaul Ash into a completely different  frame, but found ways to add synergy and interactiveness into his kit while still retaining his current identity. 

I added some of your suggestions as they would really help keep the synergy between abilities. I agree on the clones taking aggro. Ash wouldn't be able to properly utilize Blade Storm if he's insta-gib'd in the process. Plus, shuriken needed something extra to be used with smoke screen and teleport, but I think we should stay away from making it like other warframe abilities. We want Ash to feel like Ash, and not overload his kit too much. The smokescreen casts you suggested make more sense and feel more intuitive. They should also give the player more control on applying it in fights.

Also, thank you for noticing what I'm trying to do. I like Ash and play him quite a bit. I don't want to see him get changed so much that I can't recognize him, but I want enough changes to further enhance his identity of being a true ninja. He brings tools to the fight and is good at using them.

[(PSN)gino1313]

When you throw a smoke bomb, you should have slightly reduced teleport casting cost so you can enact on the finishers. 

[OzoneSlayer]

I love this rework! Kudos to you OP, If you don't mind I think I have some suggestions:

 

Shuriken

-As mentioned earlier, Shuriken could benefit from both A) Giving it the quiver mechanic (variable Shuriken), or B) Mod scaling (Melee or secondary). Also it could be cool if it was affected by the combo counter and added hits to the combo, allowing for ranged combo accumulation, which no frame currently has. Onr of the things I like about ash currently is that melee increases his blade storm damage(combo counter) and bladestorm increases his melee damage, so there is Indirect synergy. Shuriken could benefit from this and become a force to be reckoned with.

 

Smokescreen

 - I always adored the concept of turning smoke screen into a CC Cloud since cc is the main thing he lacks, while also keeping his invisibility mechanics. It could be cool if enemies in the cloud were inflicted with gas procs scaling with power strength and opened to finishers. Thus would differientiate it from invisibility since invis is used for survivability mostly, and smokescreen could be more offensive. The augment also needs a huge range buff. It shouldn't scale off of range mods since narrow minded(required to get any use out of it) would cripple it, removing its use

 

Teleport

 

-Hell yes

 

Bladestorm

- +1

 

[Sajochi]

1 hour ago, OzoneSlayer said:

I love this rework! Kudos to you OP, If you don't mind I think I have some suggestions:

 

Shuriken

-As mentioned earlier, Shuriken could benefit from both A) Giving it the quiver mechanic (variable Shuriken), or B) Mod scaling (Melee or secondary). Also it could be cool if it was affected by the combo counter and added hits to the combo, allowing for ranged combo accumulation, which no frame currently has. Onr of the things I like about ash currently is that melee increases his blade storm damage(combo counter) and bladestorm increases his melee damage, so there is Indirect synergy. Shuriken could benefit from this and become a force to be reckoned with.

 

Smokescreen

 - I always adored the concept of turning smoke screen into a CC Cloud since cc is the main thing he lacks, while also keeping his invisibility mechanics. It could be cool if enemies in the cloud were inflicted with gas procs scaling with power strength and opened to finishers. Thus would differientiate it from invisibility since invis is used for survivability mostly, and smokescreen could be more offensive. The augment also needs a huge range buff. It shouldn't scale off of range mods since narrow minded(required to get any use out of it) would cripple it, removing its use

 

Teleport

 

-Hell yes

 

Bladestorm

- +1

 

Secondary scaling should be enough for shuriken. We already have thrown weapon sidearms so it should make sense. Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, Hornet Strike and Magnum Force would give it better damage overall, while having special interaction with concealed explosives. I'm terrible at math, so if someone can think up a good base  for crit and status chance on shuriken, that would be great.

As for smoke screen, the changes already make it an offensive tool with a bit of CC thrown in. Increasing the base range of the ability shouldn't hurt, but having the focus on smaller clouds would make it an ideal choke point tool as well as useful for very small groups of enemies. I'll have to think on that a bit.

Glad you like what I presented. 

[OzoneSlayer]

1 hour ago, CrazyCortex said:

Secondary scaling should be enough for shuriken. We already have thrown weapon sidearms so it should make sense. Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, Hornet Strike and Magnum Force would give it better damage overall, while having special interaction with concealed explosives. I'm terrible at math, so if someone can think up a good base  for crit and status chance on shuriken, that would be great.

As for smoke screen, the changes already make it an offensive tool with a bit of CC thrown in. Increasing the base range of the ability shouldn't hurt, but having the focus on smaller clouds would make it an ideal choke point tool as well as useful for very small groups of enemies. I'll have to think on that a bit.

Glad you like what I presented. 

Yeah I wasn't mashing all of those things together I was just brainstorming possible separate additions. But nice job

[OzoneSlayer]

Also if my math is correct 20% crit chance would be enough, since you could reach about 79.4% crit chance per Shuriken with a maxed primed pistol gambit and hydraulic crosshairs. Also the damage should be scaled down a bit if mods are taken into account, so here are some stats

 

Damage: 200-250 slash per Shuriken

Crit chance: 20%

Crit DMG: 2x

Status: 50%

Affected by multi shot to allow stripping armor from multiple enemies with the augment

[LightstealKnight]

I also thought of the clone idea, however they are shadows not clones.

They were supposed to be shadow images of ash as he moves so fast.

It should feel more like excalibur's slash-dash "/-" in super fast motion, but ash shoots them out like projectiles, and disappears as they fly out, 1 at a time.

As soon as one shadow attacks the first enemy, ash should re-materialize and shoot out the second shadow, then the third and then re-materialize to watch the action.

This way he is still taken out of play for 3 brief pauses, but is free to continue fighting after that.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Enemy1

[SquidTheSid]

2 hours ago, Enemy1 said:

I also thought of the clone idea, however they are shadows not clones.

They were supposed to be shadow images of ash as he moves so fast.

It should feel more like excalibur's slash-dash "/-" in super fast motion, but ash shoots them out like projectiles, and disappears as they fly out, 1 at a time.

As soon as one shadow attacks the first enemy, ash should re-materialize and shoot out the second shadow, then the third and then re-materialize to watch the action.

This way he is still taken out of play for 3 brief pauses, but is free to continue fighting after that.

Too complicated, IMO. Keeping the clones, but making them invulnerable summons would be the simplest change. 

[Sajochi]

@OzoneSlayer Those numbers seem fair. Like I said, I'm not that great at math.

 

I agree with @SquidTheSid, that is way too complicated. And the proposed changes are to avoid removing Ash from the battle to invoke more active gameplay. Pressing 4 then getting coffee shouldn't be a mechanic. It's the same as Mirage essentially turning the game off, but things are still dying.

[Aquasurge]

9 hours ago, OzoneSlayer said:

Also if my math is correct 20% crit chance would be enough, since you could reach about 79.4% crit chance per Shuriken with a maxed primed pistol gambit and hydraulic crosshairs. Also the damage should be scaled down a bit if mods are taken into account, so here are some stats

 

Damage: 200-250 slash per Shuriken

Crit chance: 20%

Crit DMG: 2x

Status: 50%

Affected by multi shot to allow stripping armor from multiple enemies with the augment

i reckon you may need to turn down the status chance bit, because modding would give 100% status. i'd say 35% is good enough.

[OzoneSlayer]

8 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

i reckon you may need to turn down the status chance bit, because modding would give 100% status. i'd say 35% is good enough.

It already has 100% status currently the only difference is you have to mod for it

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Not a bad set of ideas here. Please check out mine.

 

[Sajochi]

21 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

i reckon you may need to turn down the status chance bit, because modding would give 100% status. i'd say 35% is good enough.

12 hours ago, OzoneSlayer said:

It already has 100% status currently the only difference is you have to mod for it

I put both numbers in range since this could use some more discussion. Since it still carries an innate slash proc regardless of additional status, which exists on some weapons already (Talons and Castanas come to mind here), having an amount of status chance wouldn't hurt. This would also provide a means to allow players to "alter" the damage type of shuriken, whether it's applying pure toxin damage or making a corrosive shuriken that can make the armor stripping augment more effective. Allows for more build variety.

@(PS4)GR13V4NC3

I see you and a few others have been very busy. I admire the effort, and apologies if I repeated anything you had in the thread. I read a few things that were very similar to what I put and should probably have did more research before posting this thread.

I did notice a recurring theme with shuriken, and it was the whole Quiver Style Shuriken. I feel that I should offer insight as to why I'm against this type of change. Ivara's quiver is part of her identity, it works well within her kit and makes sense in a thematic way. Ash may be the "true" ninja, but having a toggle switch for shuriken does not fit since it already helps another warframe with identity. This can be applied to many frames in the game: Chroma's Spectral Scream is one that is asked for a toggle-switch, Vauban with nearly any ability in his kit, I've even seen it called for Mag's pull to have a push/pull mechanic. If all of these were to be changed to a toggle switch, you're robbing Ivara of her identity. It is nice to be able to select the right tool on a whim and it would make sense for multiple frames, but in the end you're trying to make an apple and orange. I think as @OzoneSlayer put it, a good route would be to make it scale with secondary mods to allow it to be tuned for scenarios (Ash is about damage, where as Ivara is about CC) or utilize a different mechanic altogether that isn't a Quiver clone. I liked the hold to mark multiple enemies idea before firing a cluster of shurikens, but it's also too close to Mesa's peacemaker.

Rant aside, I believe simplicity is actually the answer to reworking Ash. His kit already grants him the identity we want, a high damage stealthy assassin who excels at single target executions but can deal with a group of enemies with ease. Basically every amazing ninja movie we have ever watched in one character. All he needs are some minor tweaks and enhancements to solidify it further. Those are my two cents.

And feel free to add some of the stuff from this post to your mega post. I'm sure there will be further discussion here to really get a feel for what some people want Ash to be.

[ashrah]

i wish to see ash toggle smoke screen......also first skill is pretty bad.....tele is nice utility.. and blade storm total rework...

[CrudShuzKong]

Sounds very good, but I dont think that completely free teleport is a good idea, because choosing wether to target a unit or nothing will be hard to gauge when playing. Targeting walls should work just fine and I would actually like to have a choice when teleporting to enemies whether or not to immediatly finish (ideally by holding down the button to finish, tap button to just teleport).

[YasaiTsume]

I would leave the Bladestorm suggestions alone for now, the rest are fairly sound and well thought out.

>What if Shuriken passes through Smokescreen on the way to its target? Does it carry a small pocket of smoke to hit the target outside the smokescreen? 

(eg. Smoking self, then using shuriken on an enemy outside the smoke screen) 

 

>As for the Wall Latch on wall Teleport, how about allowing Ash to latch for a small duration, and stealthing while he remains in Wall Latch? 

[CrudShuzKong]

5 minutes ago, YasaiTsume said:

>As for the Wall Latch on wall Teleport, how about allowing Ash to latch for a small duration, and stealthing while he remains in Wall Latch? 

with a combo timer, to recast teleport for half energy cost and double range.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I like Ash as he is, but I do like some of the ideas posted here. Ash is my main Frame and has been since I started this game (before he was considered 'good').

I like the changes suggested for Smokescreen and Teleport. I only approve of part of the changes for Bladestorm. The ability to "throw" his nuke is one of the things that makes him great and adds to the theme of his mobility. While everyone else is still working on this room and trying to get through I can throw my Bladestorm into the next room to thin the crowd until everyone catches up. Admittedly, I can do the same by teleporting into the room then using Bladestorm as an area attack but returning to the starting room to help out my allies again as a default is nice. 

I love the idea of removing him from the Bladestorm and having just his clones do it, but not as targetable NPCs. I would prefer if they stayed as they are now just that there are three of them and let me continue doing what I'm doing. It already has a much lower target cap than other nukes typically do and takes much longer to take out that many targets so there's not reason to make it take any longer. This would balance out since Ash wouldn't have his 10ish second invulnerability anymore so it wouldn't be just press 4 to win.

[Yargami]

   I really like your ideas about Shuriken, Smoke Screen, and Teleport, but I'm going to have to disagree on Bladestorm. I like the concept of your Bladestorm, but I feel like Ash having a large area ult doesn't fit the assassin feel at all (a problem I have with the current BS). What I really like in-game currently is if I can get an enemy isolated and use BS on him. The whole teleporting around the same enemy brutally attacking him for the duration of the ult is really cool and fits with the assassin theme (assassins do usually have a single target that they need to kill). Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind the ability being single target, but because a lot of people would scream and cry maybe make it 5-10m (10m is 1/5 of its current size)? That way with Narrow Minded those of us that enjoy the single target version would still get that, and other people could still get a decently sized AoE version. Other than that, I really like these ideas.

   edit: If it were to be made a single target ability, the camera could be fixed to just float near the targeted enemy. This would make it a little easier on the eyes (although if it is just a small AoE that wouldn't work).

Edited May 9, 2016 by Yargami

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, Yargami said:

   I really like your ideas about Shuriken, Smoke Screen, and Teleport, but I'm going to have to disagree on Bladestorm. I like the concept of your Bladestorm, but I feel like Ash having a large area ult doesn't fit the assassin feel at all (a problem I have with the current BS). What I really like in-game currently is if I can get an enemy isolated and use BS on him. The whole teleporting around the same enemy brutally attacking him for the duration of the ult is really cool and fits with the assassin theme (assassins do usually have a single target that they need to kill). Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind the ability being single target, but because a lot of people would scream and cry maybe make it 5-10m (10m is 1/5 of its current size)? That way with Narrow Minded those of us that enjoy the single target version would still get that, and other people could still get a decently sized AoE version. Other than that, I really like these ideas.

   edit: If it were to be made a single target ability, the camera could be fixed to just float near the targeted enemy. This would make it a little easier on the eyes (although if it is just a small AoE that wouldn't work).

The problem is that Ash can already instant-kill single targets. That's what his teleport is for. It opens enemies up to finishers. No need to give him another single target damage move.