The proposed Banshee passive is an awful idea

[IceColdHawk]

4 minutes ago, Sixty5 said:

Plus if you nerf her first you cut down on the moaning when you do get around to reworking her. 

This doesn't make sense. If you unreasonably nerf her, now then you will get moaning especially. Why would anyone complain about a rework/tweak for the least used frame? Noone would. Even banshee players would be happy to see her kit getting some serious needed QoL like recasting silence or casting sonic boom single-handedly.

Kick it out of your head man ^^

Edited May 15, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[Sixty5]

11 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

This doesn't make sense. If you unreasonably nerf her, now then you will get moaning especially. Why would anyone complain about a rework/tweak for the least used frame? Noone would. Even banshee players would be happy to see her kit getting some serious needed QoL like recasting silence or casting sonic boom single-handedly.

Kick it out of your head man ^^

Nope. 

I'd rather get Banshee nerfed now and have the 12 other people who play her be sad, than go straight for a rework and have the entire forum population complain about the power shifts it brings. 

[Get_Singed]

This is NOT a bad passive. This is an AMAZING passive. It just makes Silence basically obsolete. The problem isn't this upcoming passive, it's that Silence needs to be changed. It's a permanent, functional version of Silence. Loki's Hushed Invisibility. The Hush mod. It gives her an incredibly powerful asset without taking up the mod slot it would normally take up, and actually silences her weapons, unlike what Silence does.

[Sixty5]

Just now, Reitrahc said:

This is NOT a bad passive. This is an AMAZING passive. It just makes Silence basically obsolete. The problem isn't this upcoming passive, it's that Silence needs to be changed. It's a permanent, functional version of Silence. Loki's Hushed Invisibility. The Hush mod. It gives her an incredibly powerful asset without taking up the mod slot it would normally take up, and actually silences her weapons, unlike what Silence does.

Tell me more about how good that passive is if teammates have set off the alarms, or if you are playing an endless mission?

[Get_Singed]

Just now, Sixty5 said:

Tell me more about how good that passive is if teammates have set off the alarms, or if you are playing an endless mission?

This is a stealth passive, it is CLEARLY not meant for that kind of gameplay. Don't *@##$ about something when you're theoretically misusing it.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, Sixty5 said:

Tell me more about how good that passive is if teammates have set off the alarms, or if you are playing an endless mission?

Only if you tell me how frost's passive is any useful outside of low level missions ;)

[Sixty5]

6 minutes ago, Reitrahc said:

This is a stealth passive, it is CLEARLY not meant for that kind of gameplay. Don't *@##$ about something when you're theoretically misusing it.

Right so a frame that is already lacklustre gets a passive that is useless in most of the games content. 

There is a reaaon they added the stun to silence, before then the ability was absolute garbage. 

5 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Only if you tell me how frost's passive is any useful outside of low level missions ;)

It lets you play more recklessly inside your bubble. 

Enemies outside can't shoot you, and those that do get inside the bubble are slowed and possibly frozen. 

It also encourages tankier melee builds on him, rather than powerspam ones. 

It also makes him decent vs infested. 

 

[Get_Singed]

11 minutes ago, Sixty5 said:

Right so a frame that is already lacklustre gets a passive that is useless in most of the games content. 

There is a reaaon they added the stun to silence, before then the ability was absolute garbage. 

It lets you play more recklessly inside your bubble. 

Enemies outside can't shoot you, and those that do get inside the bubble are slowed and possibly frozen. 

It also encourages tankier melee builds on him, rather than powerspam ones. 

It also makes him decent vs infested. 

 

This passive is NOT the same as Silence. That's literally what I said. This is a BETTER version of silence. And calling endless missions "most of the games content" is straight up stupid, and a lie. This passive will be extremely useful any time you are playing a mission solo that is not survival, and any time you are playing stealth at all. It will also be very good for racking up bonus stealth affinity. Stop being salty because the proposed passive doesn't fit your specific playstyle.

[IceColdHawk]

13 minutes ago, Sixty5 said:

Enemies outside can't shoot you, and those that do get inside the bubble are slowed and possibly frozen. 

It also encourages tankier melee builds on him, rather than powerspam ones. 

I said outside of low level missions. In the worst case you won't freeze that 1 guy the first time and the second time, you're dead.

14 minutes ago, Sixty5 said:

It also makes him decent vs infested. 

And so is banshee's passive for spy and rescue missions ^^

[Obviousclone]

The passive is nice, and I'm somewhat looking forward to it.

 

people keep saying it makes silence obsolete?

When you use silence, you're using it for the aoe stun. Even in stealth scenarios. In the case where you want a quiet a weapon (let's say, you're doing a spy vault/rescue vault and you don't want enemies running to the alarms when you kill someone), what actually happens is: you activate silence, then prepare to assassinate the target... and then you realize that everyone got aoe stunned, so the fact that your weapons are silenced doesn't matter at all. They're not going to notice you, nor run away to trip the alarms... cause the possible witness (audio witnesses) are stunned. And you may as well kill the stunned dudes too, since at the end of the cc, they may still trip the alarms. So even if the silence ability didn't silence, it'd still function the exact same for stealth purposes.

 

The only thing I'd want changed for it, is perhaps connecting noise to the threat level system. Right now, 'threat' is used for decoys, nyx's absorb and a few other obscure cases (like pherliac pods, against the infested, which nobody uses outside of the quest afaik). It would be a lot more interesting, if say, noise produced (from gun shots/ other powers) had more influence on threat level, say: louder guns = more aggro drawn from enemies since they consider them larger threats. That would of course, make the silence passive (and the hush effect from the silence ability) useful in combat since enemies would aggro onto allies (who shoot loud guns) rather than focus on the Banshee who's completely quiet. It would also change up (and possibly improve) a bunch of other things as well (like allowing tanks to control aggro by using louder guns, or create another metric besides status/crit to value weaponry).

[IceColdHawk]

20 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

The only thing I'd want changed for it, is perhaps connecting noise to the threat level system. Right now, 'threat' is used for decoys, nyx's absorb and a few other obscure cases (like pherliac pods, against the infested, which nobody uses outside of the quest afaik). It would be a lot more interesting, if say, noise produced (from gun shots/ other powers) had more influence on threat level, say: louder guns = more aggro drawn from enemies since they consider them larger threats. That would of course, make the silence passive (and the hush effect from the silence ability) useful in combat since enemies would aggro onto allies (who shoot loud guns) rather than focus on the Banshee who's completely quiet. It would also change up (and possibly improve) a bunch of other things as well (like allowing tanks to control aggro by using louder guns, or create another metric besides status/crit to value weaponry).

So...banshee's weapons are completely silent and when everything is alerted they'd rather focus on your mates instead of at you?

Sounds cool with me.

[Sixty5]

48 minutes ago, Reitrahc said:

This passive is NOT the same as Silence. That's literally what I said. This is a BETTER version of silence. And calling endless missions "most of the games content" is straight up stupid, and a lie. This passive will be extremely useful any time you are playing a mission solo that is not survival, and any time you are playing stealth at all. It will also be very good for racking up bonus stealth affinity. Stop being salty because the proposed passive doesn't fit your specific playstyle.

Banshee's kit is heavy CC with damage amplification. To me, that screams high level missions, not stealth. 

Additionally when I say most of the games content I mean, any mission that either cannot be stealthed or is not worth stealthing, which basically boils down to everything that isn't Spy. Every other mission in the game is pretty much a waste of time to stealth. The options are there if you want to stealth it, but it is a player choice.

As the game is now, sorties are the hardest missions that you can stealth. Banshee has no problem one shotting anything in those missions even running half modded guns. And even then you have your 3 in case you want to sneakily apply shotgun to face. 

I don't mind Banshee getting a stealth passive, hell the passive that I drew up for her awhile back had stealth aspects. The thing I don't like is that it has no use outside of stealth and it is something that she already has in her kit and can get without losing out on power. 

It's like making Limbos passive "allies regen energy while in the Rift" you add nothing to the frame. 

[Get_Singed]

1 minute ago, Sixty5 said:

Banshee's kit is heavy CC with damage amplification. To me, that screams high level missions, not stealth. 

Additionally when I say most of the games content I mean, any mission that either cannot be stealthed or is not worth stealthing, which basically boils down to everything that isn't Spy. Every other mission in the game is pretty much a waste of time to stealth. The options are there if you want to stealth it, but it is a player choice.

As the game is now, sorties are the hardest missions that you can stealth. Banshee has no problem one shotting anything in those missions even running half modded guns. And even then you have your 3 in case you want to sneakily apply shotgun to face. 

I don't mind Banshee getting a stealth passive, hell the passive that I drew up for her awhile back had stealth aspects. The thing I don't like is that it has no use outside of stealth and it is something that she already has in her kit and can get without losing out on power. 

It's like making Limbos passive "allies regen energy while in the Rift" you add nothing to the frame. 

If you consider this passive and Limbo's passive to add nothing to the frame, I can't possibly see you viewing any passive in the entire game as useful. Limbo regens energy in the rift, and it's incredibly useful in case you've never used Limbo. If you're saying if Limbo's passive were to change to only affect his allies and not himself, it would still be a fairly good passive because Limbo is in general a support frame focused on the rift.

Not drawing attention to yourself when firing your guns is a really good thing when playing a squishy frame. This passive will allow you to fairly easily keep alarms off at all times, because if an enemy doesn't see you they won't ever be alerted, and if they do see you you can just cap them before they sound the alarm without alerting nearby enemies. From what I can tell, you're just butt hurt that your favorite frame isn't getting an uber instakill all enemies passive. I would actually say this is probably one of the most useful passives that were announced, and will actually make Banshee worth playing for me. It doesn't fit your playstyle. I get it. Stop complaining.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

At first I was like "meh", but when I imagined actually not having to worry about keeping a large range Silence up to keep doing stealth kills with ANY weapon I choose to at any range, I started to see the value in it. I'm okay with the passive. Silence needs more utility anyway, a little edge to make it useful outside of a temporary stun and mediocre stealth capabilities. If it had Savage Silences functionality builtin without the damage bonus, or energized with her other abilities, I'd use it more. This passive doesn't make me want to use any of Banshee's abilities less, so it's okay in my book.

[AM-Bunny]

I think that the Passive fulfills a slightly different role from Silence. It might seem redundant, but that's really only from the perspective of a veteran player with many maxed mods. For players with less robust resources, it's not really viable to keep Silence running 100% of the time. Therefore, the Passive would serve as a useful filler in between those casts.

Additionally, there are a number of circumstances against Corpus enemies that her powers might be nullified or scrambled - her Passive would allow her to maintain stealth even in these scenarios.

Is it the best passive? Not really, but it's not the worst either. I definitely can conceivably see its uses, unlike things like Ember's or Ash's.

EDIT: In general, from reading this thread, I feel like people are expecting way too much from Passives. They seem to be mostly a minor convenience, not a game-changing mechanic that allows an otherwise crippled Warframe to stand. I think Inaros is really the only one with a very significant Passive.

Edited May 15, 2016 by AM-Bunny

[IceColdHawk]

3 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Is it the best passive? Not really, but it's not the worst either. I definitely can conceivably see its uses, unlike things like Ember's or Ash's.

Definitely agree. But like i said somewhere before, banshee rework is definitely coming. Awaiting it at least with the release of banshee prime. Maybe it can give her 3 a better use than only a short stun that isn't even recastable.

Edited May 15, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[Get_Singed]

5 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

I think that the Passive fulfills a slightly different role from Silence. It might seem redundant, but that's really only from the perspective of a veteran player with many maxed mods. For players with less robust resources, it's not really viable to keep Silence running 100% of the time. Therefore, the Passive would serve as a useful filler in between those casts.

Additionally, there are a number of circumstances against Corpus enemies that her powers might be nullified or scrambled - her Passive would allow her to maintain stealth even in these scenarios.

Is it the best passive? Not really, but it's not the worst either. I definitely can conceivably see its uses, unlike things like Ember's or Ash's.

EDIT: In general, from reading this thread, I feel like people are expecting way too much from Passives. They seem to be mostly a minor convenience, not a game-changing mechanic that allows an otherwise crippled Warframe to stand. I think Inaros is really the only one with a very significant Passive.

Gotta stop you here, HALF of Inaros's passive is significant. The half that lets him regen on finisher kills. His sarcophogus needs to be tweaked. No one dies as Inaros in low level missions, where the drain can kill enemies, and if the enemies are high enough level to kill you, the drain won't be strong enough to revive you. But yes, this is exactly right, passives are only a minor convenience, and actually there are more than a few that seem to just be a free mod slot, like Equinox getting a free Equilibrium or Limbo getting a free Energy Siphon.

[AM-Bunny]

Just now, Reitrahc said:

Gotta stop you here, HALF of Inaros's passive is significant. The half that lets him regen on finisher kills. His sarcophogus needs to be tweaked. No one dies as Inaros in low level missions, where the drain can kill enemies, and if the enemies are high enough level to kill you, the drain won't be strong enough to revive you. But yes, this is exactly right, passives are only a minor convenience, and actually there are more than a few that seem to just be a free mod slot, like Equinox getting a free Equilibrium or Limbo getting a free Energy Siphon.

Yeah, fair, I was referring to his Finisher Heal thing.

[hukurokuju5]

passive will be useless for 90% of missions...

hope they dont go with what they have

[Vaxillian]

A gun with no sound is no different that a gun with sound because not only is stealth in this game dead, but it never even came to life and the devs refuse to put work into making it an actual system.

[Get_Singed]

7 minutes ago, Vaxillian said:

A gun with no sound is no different that a gun with sound because not only is stealth in this game dead, but it never even came to life and the devs refuse to put work into making it an actual system.

You've clearly never tried playing the game stealth. It's actually a big difference. Enemies that are not alerted grant bonus affinity when you kill them. Up to 6x affinity if you get a stealth streak going. It also means that when you CAN'T set off alarms, you can still fire your weapons without fear of setting off alarms.

[Vaxillian]

7 minutes ago, Reitrahc said:

You've clearly never tried playing the game stealth. It's actually a big difference. Enemies that are not alerted grant bonus affinity when you kill them. Up to 6x affinity if you get a stealth streak going. It also means that when you CAN'T set off alarms, you can still fire your weapons without fear of setting off alarms.

I have but the Ai isn't exactly intelligent itself. Even with the alertness levels being added, stealth still lacks in a way that there isn't really a way to hide, when you alert one you alert the entire ship/base, and most frames don't line up well with stealth unless you have a silent weapon.

Originally we were supposed to even been ninjas but if you compare the stealth here to any other games it is clearly lacking.

So in short, stealth has a lot of potential if they took time to look at it but there are some major walls in the way currently.

[Get_Singed]

1 minute ago, Vaxillian said:

I have but the Ai isn't exactly intelligent itself. Even with the alertness levels being added, stealth still lacks in a way that there isn't really a way to hide, when you alert one you alert the entire ship/base, and most frames don't line up well with stealth unless you have a silent weapon.

Originally we were supposed to even been ninjas but if you compare the stealth here to any other games it is clearly lacking.

So in short, stealth has a lot of potential if they took time to look at it but there are some major walls in the way currently.

Thank you for literally making my exact point for why this passive is good for stealth.

With this passive, the only way to alert an enemy is to be seen by them, or to allow an enemy to sound the alarms. Remember that enemies that SEE another enemy die do not immediately become alerted. They enter a semi alerted state where they will become alerted if they see a player or take damage, but will not sound the alarm. As long as you kill any enemy that SEES you, you never have to deal with alarms. You seem to not be very experienced with playing stealthy, but it is a thing and it actually works, and the more you try it the more you'll get used to it. Silence on weapons is a MASSIVE difference.

[venon23]

21 hours ago, Sixty5 said:

Banshee has a 5x damage amplification ability, I think she can afford to drop a single mod slot and still one shot anything in any mission that you would want to stealth.

Banshee stops 1 shotting things only after you have gone rather deep into endless runs. At this point there is no mission in the game that puts you up against enemies of this level in missions that you can stealth.

 

Banshee needs a full rework rather badly, her kit feels so bland nowadays

agree 50% rework silence and soundquake dont put the finger in sonicboom or sonar scott plzz

[Ghostar]

Did.... Did people forget focus is a thing? From what I hear, stealth kills give bonus EXP to focus farming. Sounds to me like banshee would be fantastic for farming it with this kind of addition. Don't forget some other properties to Silence though, namely the fact it muffled everything (which always annoyed me.) this passive makes it so that's not an issue. As for endless missions, I see no reason DE couldn't simply tack on two passives, (Like with how ember gets more damage AND energy) give it the "All silence" treatment, and then give it the Evasion thing like that one mod has. That way she gets full silenced weapons "(for herself) and she can mess with enemies causing them to miss (to help endless missions).

 

So where does that leave silence? I personally find it annoying to have all my sound muffled, but I still find uses for the ability. As others have said it can CC, but more importantly it's a silence for the whole team. So in the argument of "Ivara's passive is enemy sense and scales with mods" Banshee's passive is her own silence/hush mod, and the up scaled version is her Silence which makes the entire team get a silence buff for a short time + CCs for endless missions. It seems perfectly fine to me, and I say this as an avid Banshee fan. Not to mention silence means enemies wont locate you very easily if you are in a hard to see place. For example, perched on something in an endless mission sniping enemies? They hear more then you think.