U19 will be a turning point... or will not.

[matto]

40 minutes ago, Nijyumensou said:

...

I'll just post this here. Too tired to reply about economic stuff.

Digital Extremes has been selected for the 2015 Deloitte Technology Fast 50 list for Canada and the Technology Fast 500 for North America ranking at 29 on the Top 50 list.

http://www.digitalextremes.com/news/2015/11/digital-extremes-named-fastest-growing-tech-company

Access to a market of 1.4 billion people and $73 million in cash are driving growth at Digital Extremes, London’s biggest gaming business.

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/10/15/londons-digital-extremes-sold-to-multi-dynamic-games-group

Digital Extremes ended 2013 with a profit of nearly $4.5 million after taxes, according to financial statements included in the deal. Profit was $7 million for the six months that ended April 30.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada/2014/10/15/london-video-game-developer-digital-extremes-bought-by-chicken-company.html

Don't take me wrong, what did Michael Schmalz with Digital Extremes is truly astonishing and deserves a lot of recognition, but if people could stop talking about DE like it was a start-up company... that would make more sense.

[Rakosta_Kai]

54 minutes ago, HiMeToEu said:

Not sure if this has been said in this long thread buuut...

We have to consider that this is VAUBAN Prime. A frame exclusive to alerts. If people where to be able to unlock Vauban Prime before Vauban himself, something has gone wrong.
Having Vauban Prime being MORE accessible than Vauban is a BAD thing, it makes Vauban irrelevant.
The issue of a gap might be present, but to say that Vauban Prime is clear evidence to this is not completely true. Perhaps there is some semblance to this but if we compare it to Vauban, then there isn't THAT much of a gap, considering that Vauban parts itself is entirely based on RNG whilst Nitain can be farmed for.

Vauban Prime will be easier to acquire than regular Vauban until such point as Vauban Prime gets vaulted. This is because the parts can be traded for and there are numerous Nitain missions daily.

Of course, in a perfect world there would be an alert (or two) that would last 24 hours and provide nitain along with other goodies as a guarantee daily.

 

[PublikDomain]

I doubt it'll be a turning point, just more of the same. The new frame and weapons will probably be woefully expensive, any new stances will be locked behind rare drops from rare enemies, and Kavats will just be Kubrows with a new skin: same egg grind, same incubation, same airlock. Starchart 1.0 3.0 hasn't shown that it will add anything other than a new skin to the ancient and repetitive missions system. The Void will remain as it has been, vaulted primes won't come back. There are no end-game contents being added, unless you count repetitive PvP, just more trinkets to collect and then throw away. Warfarm's CCU will spike, as it does every time new content is added, and then it will drop again until the next content release as players again burn out.

Kind of grim, when you think of it like that. I guess DE makes it kind of hard to be optimistic about all this.

[Lendalas]

You have just demonstrated the human trait because of which communism is not possible. And you did that by criticising capitalism. 

 

I hope you're happy...

[ravend]

Short term, yes

Long term, no

We will get everything it will just take longer. I have ask, why the rush? P.booben will around for awhile, what's the difference between now and a month? I know taking my time will give something to do.

[BlackCoMerc]

Could not agree more with the OP.

The blatant overuse of T3 Survival, Rotation 3 - the intentional dilution of that list with key prime parts - was absurd before. Now, its become an insult to players. It is disrespectful of our time. And it flies in the face of DE claiming (falsely, as it turns out) that they want to reduce grind in general and Void grind in particular. Given the now obvious untruth of that claim we can reach a couple of natural and obvious and conclusions immediately:

The gap between free and paying players will continue to widen. This is obvious, with the addition of the latest Prime access. In fact, given the level of grind for the last few frames added to the game, one would not be dishonest to claim, in reviews of the game, that adding additional classes (frames) REQUIRES paying money to anyone willing to spend only a reasonable amount of time playing the game. 

Another obvious conclusion we can reach now: DE will continue to increase the grind, and the pay/free gap, until the point where they begin losing players. NOT hearing players CLAIM they will leave; DE has very real metrics. Until the player base goes into noticeable (read: We cant hide this from Shareholders any longer) decline, this sort of behavior will continue.

DE does not want to reduce Grind. DE does not care about Void fatigue. DE has no intention of making this better. Those claims are blatantly disingenuous at this point until proven otherwise. I am sorry; with respect to the developers of this game, you have said one thing and done another for quite long enough now. If you want me to believe you, you need to make your actions match your words, the which you have summarily failed to do recently in regards to this particular problem.

Edited May 18, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[Serafinia]

Forgot mention Titania will needed nitatin and one more new material to craft.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Serafinia

[matto]

?_? I think two threads were merged. Whatever.

[EthosP]

Yeah.. It's starting to feel like the grind is getting a little out of control. Which is too bad. This has been the first Prime I haven't been excited to start hunting for. I logged in last night to start, picked a load out, went to the map, noticed I didn't have a majority of the keys needed to farm some of this new gear and just logged off. 

Warframe used to be the shining example of how to do the F2P model properly, now most people I talk to refer to it as "pay to win garbage." I think some, if not most, of those types of statements are made out of ignorance. After-all the model hasn't changed they've just kept increasing the grind little by little to the point where it even seems ridiculous to seemingly a majority of the community. And no one is saying DE should give away the farm when they make new assets. I was happy to eventually earn Trinity Prime. I was happy to hunt down Rhino Prime. Loki Prime. It kept me playing the game.

Now I don't even know if I want to go through this grind when I could be playing the new Doom, or Bloodborne, or any other game in my backlog. Overwatch comes out in a week. Looks like it's time for another long break from Warframe. 

[Stratego89]

5 hours ago, (PS4)WiiConquered said:

 

The Prime Vault had nothing to do with dilution. When the first two sets of Prime items were vaulted, nothing was put in place of those parts in the table. 

Besides, no one can claim the Derelict is diluted, or that DE tried when they didn't remove things like T1 keys that make up north of a 25% drop chance for some tables.

I... I'm sorry are you being serious right now?? Really? Ok... I want you to go to that comment I just quoted. I want you to read the first two bolded parts. Now I want you to come back here and tell me how not adding anything in on the first two rotations did not HELP with the dilution even more than when they DID add new things in. Please, I'm waiting.

As for the derelicts- the derelicts are just that... derelict. They are ancient, decrepit, raided through and through, rotted. What few prime items are left in there are very rare- that's the lore. It makes no sense to toss a ton of prime stuff in there. In fact even having ANY prime items there is already a stretch.

[LordLimbo]

whelp. just gonna put my 2 cents here. i've been playing for 6 months, i'm at MR 16 , got all warframes except ember and mag prime because they were vaulted before i got here, and got almost all the best weapons in the game. I have to say, playing this game was really fun. i farmed everything like a maniac to get everything i got but in the last month i noticed i got tired of it. the ducat farming is insane, especially with baro's last arrival. and i got really tired of the grind after buying a resource booster to grind oxium to craft the grattler. I was really excited for vauban P but as soon i as i saw the requirements i thought: is this some sick joke? . the initial requirements were just absurd, i know they halved it but still, it is WAY too much. 7k oxium to craft only the chassis? and dont even mention the alertium. I think i'm leaving the game for some time. i logged in today just to get the daily login and see what was on alerts and invasion, didnt even bother with sorties . It's really saddening, i thought this is and was going to be the best f2p game ever, but the grind wall is getting stupidly high. I hope u19 will change some things about the grind, but to be honest i doubt it.Thanks for half a year of fun DE

[Shreiko]

10 hours ago, matto said:

Not at all, I'm French mate :) Why are you asking? Just curious. Sorry if I made some mistakes and if it's not clear enough.

Ah, punctuation was a bit off and the thoughts you are trying to convey seem disjointed at certain points. That is why I asked, it makes sense now.

[yoanguila]

12 hours ago, matto said:

Hi there.

Damn, I don't know about you guys, but it took me a while before falling asleep. First, the Vauban hype, then what I consider to be a new crisis in this community with all the threads about ressources requirements, void reward tables, etc. I've seen a lot of hard times on this forum and most people will tell me "give it some time, people will let it go as they usually do". But what's interesting here is how a PA access brought back all the matters that sometimes divide the community (payer vs grinder), or ignite it (alertium, drop chances). It's not one crisis that will focus on one problem at period t, but more about one that shows the entire state of the game at period t. And it's what is truly interesting. And this is why I feel like we are on the edge of the Falls. And this edge will be U19. Or will not, maybe. But my opinion is as stated.

Because after 3 years with this game, we finally saw a more aggressive logic behind PA. All the smoke screen won't hide it. It's buy your new shiny frame, or grind the hell out of it. Go through farming keys to grinding missions, to waiting for alertium to show up and finally farm an uncommon ressource. So people will say "it is the great Booben, it was supposed to be hard to acquire". I agree, really. But hum... I was expecting something else for Vauban. I don't know what (a void vortex appearing? a teaser of the void collapse?), but not your classic and intensified grind fest. But whatever. I would be ok with all the grind wall if a Prime frame wasn't limited in time. Because, yes with the vaulting system, it became limited. Or even unattainable for some without paying. That's what really saddens me the most. When I think about those players that won't get Frost Prime anytime soon, those players that don't even know if they'll be able to get it someday, I feel like things got too far from the fantastic and refreshing game policy I fell in love with a few years before. But hey, time to bring back the old promise : the void will collapse with the new starchart. Prime vault is just a temporary solution to the reward tables issue. Don't get me wrong, I don't trust it and have no hope. But that's specifically what will make U19 a turning point : will you keep your promise? Or will you fall even more into the F2P mechanics of a game that is self-assured enough to not even caring about hiding and easing those mechanics? The future of Warframe is here.

It is sad, and at the same time reassuring. Because some people just can't keep the "I told you so" anymore. Because some of us already tried to warn others about the Prime Vault or even the early stages of Prime Access, or alertiums, etc. The developers created, step by step, all the assets to get to this point. But you always have this voice inside you reminding you that when Warframe was launched, someone called Steve Sinclair said "The grind sucks, and I hate it. What I love, which is really damn close to 'grinding' is progression" (Steve, around U7). But Steve, if you are reading this, I don't blame you. Because I understand enough to be able to say "everything is not up to you". You created a game with a vision, an ideal, and I am truly thankful for all these years. People forget a lot of elements, from the recent share acquisition, to the headquarters remodeling etc. when they say that "you need to eat". There's a margin between standard PA policy, and even more PA policy. There's a difference between what your F2P model and idea was, and what we're seeing clearer and clearer. But that's another topic. People are naive anyway.

What happened the past hours must not be ignored. U19 being closer and closer, starchart 3.0 sooner and sooner, we will finally see if everything we were told will actually be implemented. What makes it critical is that a lot of players feel exhausted by all the grind we got lately. From events to prime items or stance or... well just too many things. I haven't seen people that tired of it in a long time. Just go farm sabotage void keys, and you'll see people complaining a lot in the squad chat. Tired... that's how we are, most of us. So, in the end, if you don't keep your promise, what we'll have left is playing the game as casuals, playing the game for what it is and nothing more. Maybe it will make us enjoy more its content. If only its content was interesting enough... A point, and my last one, that could balance the grind of the game. Challenge, fun would ease the pain if you're not willing to change anything.

So yeah, the stakes are as stated. Waiting for changes in the grind logic, the void, the reward tables or, if nothing along those lines happen, getting enough fun to enjoy the game for something else.

Anyway, good luck everyone. May we be heard.

 

I feel that playing Warframe it's like a job, grind over here, grind over there. If we hunt specific enemies (like missions from Cephalon Simaris) we should get a reward for an "eventual contract" of Nef Anyo, Teshin, Lotus, Syndicate leaders, etc like 5 x Fieldron or mutagen mass, wraith weapons or whatever that's will be a change, we will play extetminate, sabotage, mobile defense, hive, etc... to get the reward. The day a Tactical Alert shows, mostly, i play Warframe, i don't grind and that is cool. Excepting when a lot of mods are avaible for limited time and playing Warframe it becomes in my eventual second job.

Edited May 18, 2016 by yoanguila
I leave blank spaces

[Fionntan]

10 hours ago, Nesit1 said:

I don't think that's a problem. Some things are easy to get. Some things are hard to get. 

You mentioned people "who can't get Frost Prime". Tell me, how much do they lose because of it? Some stats? Some shiny stuff on Waframe? He looks bad, needs vusal overhaul. I started playing in patch when Void was added. And I never, ever wanted to build Prime. News of him getting vaulted. W/e. News of him getting unvaulted. W/e. I knew I didn't lose much just because I don't have it. Same here. All this "time limited stuff" is not that important. Vault is good - because void is flooded with prime items already.

 

Getting back to the "grind"

Grind is part of game. Everything you do in Warframe is grinding. Even in Conclave you grind reputation.

What's wrong - people usually use "best ways" to grind. Fastest, easiest, and most boring as well.

You can't stop 'em from picking "best ways", but DE can make those ways less boring. What do I expect from U19 - "time to farm/grind" won't be affected. You'll have the same amount of time to get some Prime thing, but what you'll be doing for that will be different. The same goes with Draco. DE don't want to make "time to rank up" higher, they want more variety in ways.

Before U19 happens, everything you can do is limitting yourself and stop sticking to "best ways". More likely "stop tryharding". Eventually you'll get everything, so it's better to chill down and make your own gameplay more interesting.

Pretty much my thoughts.

I don't fully have high expectation U19 to change how grind works anytime soon, they need dem $$$, however I truly hope they start work on adding new ways to get same results for xp/prime parts/etc rewards.

At least to divert myself and everyone else from walking the same beaten path over and over again which leads to said burn out; current issue slowly plagues the playerbase.

 

Also in my opinion, Nitain is the lesser evil of mats. At least it doesn't decay with time like the infamous Argon.

All that work to get Argon goes up in smoke within few days while Nitain is there perma. Now imagine if all mats where like Argon ? All reserves gone within few days :(

Now I do agree Nitain Alerts could use some time buffer of like 2-3 hours. Still, I feel said mat is not as bad as people paint it & like most other mats the less time invested the lesser the reserver; nothing new there. 

[Fionntan]

2 hours ago, matto said:

?_? I think two threads were merged. Whatever.

Yea I was surprise see it blow up 9 pages like woa ....

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

1 hour ago, Stratego89 said:

I... I'm sorry are you being serious right now?? Really? Ok... I want you to go to that comment I just quoted. I want you to read the first two bolded parts. Now I want you to come back here and tell me how not adding anything in on the first two rotations did not HELP with the dilution even more than when they DID add new things in. Please, I'm waiting.

As for the derelicts- the derelicts are just that... derelict. They are ancient, decrepit, raided through and through, rotted. What few prime items are left in there are very rare- that's the lore. It makes no sense to toss a ton of prime stuff in there. In fact even having ANY prime items there is already a stretch.

Did you forget how common Frost/Latron parts were? They weren't hogging space in the tables because they were generally in tables with few items. Despite that, the next PA went into tables with many items and small drop chances. If DE was trying to make space, they would've put the new items in place of the old. Otherwise there wasn't a reason to remove the old ones!

And the lore isn't a great excuse (especially in a game where Vor and Krill keep showing up despite being killed multiple times), before you factor that the derelicts are overrun with Infested that end up making incursions dangerous. And before you factor that Orokin keys and Forma blueprints still seem to drop in heaps in the Derelicts, despite being "raided through and through" (also I don't think that's ever stated--you made it up to justify something that makes no sense). And before you factor that Orokin keys and Forma blueprints still drop in heaps on Rotation C and in non-endless missions. Together those make more than a quarter of the drops by weight, and that didn't change. Dilution was a smokescreen.

[Fionntan]

Just now, (PS4)WiiConquered said:

Did you forget how common Frost/Latron parts were? They weren't hogging space in the tables because they were generally in tables with few items. Despite that, the next PA went into tables with many items and small drop chances. If DE was trying to make space, they would've put the new items in place of the old. Otherwise there wasn't a reason to remove the old ones!

And the lore isn't a great excuse (especially in a game where Vor and Krill keep showing up despite being killed multiple times), before you factor that the derelicts are overrun with Infested that end up making incursions dangerous. And before you factor that Orokin keys and Forma blueprints still seem to drop in heaps in the Derelicts, despite being "raided through and through" (also I don't think that's ever stated--you made it up to justify something that makes no sense). And before you factor that Orokin keys and Forma blueprints still drop in heaps on Rotation C and in non-endless missions. Together those make more than a quarter of the drops by weight, and that didn't change. Dilution was a smokescreen.

That hogging is thing DE reduced, aka dillution of primes :/

Meanwhile, adding Derelic the prime stuff is just delaying the in inevitable. It will the clogged up eventually and leads same burn out as before.

[kilerskull]

What will the new star chart do? I dont care for shiny visuals. To me, the greatest problem is how terrible, boring, linear the level design is. With such lack of content (frames and weapons being the content and nothing else) I want to atleast play in good environments. I wish the new star chart meant better, more open world level designs.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

6 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

That hogging is thing DE reduced, aka dillution of primes :/

Meanwhile, adding Derelic the prime stuff is just delaying the in inevitable. It will the clogged up eventually and leads same burn out as before.

That's not what happened. Tables like T2Survival A with few items have even less, while tables like T3S C have even more, even though the latter is far more rare. If they were trying to fix dilution, it would've been the rotation C's getting items cut.

 

As for delaying the inevitable with the Derelict, in a vacuum this is true. But Stratego's original post claimed the Vault is just a stopgap until the new starchart, in which case they only needed a delay until that could be implemented.

 

The prime vault exists because money. Which is fine; it's a free-to-play. What's not fine is pretending it's something else.

Edited May 18, 2016 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[yoanguila]

16 minutes ago, kilerskull said:

What will the new star chart do? I dont care for shiny visuals. To me, the greatest problem is how terrible, boring, linear the level design is. With such lack of content (frames and weapons being the content and nothing else) I want to atleast play in good environments. I wish the new star chart meant better, more open world level designs.

so do I.

[Stratego89]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)WiiConquered said:

Did you forget how common Frost/Latron parts were? They weren't hogging space in the tables because they were generally in tables with few items. Despite that, the next PA went into tables with many items and small drop chances. If DE was trying to make space, they would've put the new items in place of the old. Otherwise there wasn't a reason to remove the old ones!

If you don't get it this time- I'm just going to write you off as a ridiculous conspiracy theorist who wants to hate on DE or just a troll.

Once again- read CAREFULLY the bolded text. What you just said is completely ridiculous. It works AGAINST the purpose of easing dilution. If they added those items back in there- it would have prevented FURTHER dilution (which is the POINT of the prime vault)- but since they DIDN'T add ANYTHING... it REDUCED the dilution. This is seriously common sense dude. Can you not comprehend this?

[Fionntan]

52 minutes ago, (PS4)WiiConquered said:

That's not what happened. Tables like T2Survival A with few items have even less, while tables like T3S C have even more, even though the latter is far more rare. If they were trying to fix dilution, it would've been the rotation C's getting items cut.

 

As for delaying the inevitable with the Derelict, in a vacuum this is true. But Stratego's original post claimed the Vault is just a stopgap until the new starchart, in which case they only needed a delay until that could be implemented.

 

The prime vault exists because money. Which is fine; it's a free-to-play. What's not fine is pretending it's something else.

Cutting C rotation and fluffing others is still slowing down the dilution in the long run.

Vault Prime, besides profit, seemed more like a nice option for those want skip the middle man called "trade chat" wanted charge more than 60 bucks. Not solid a thing though as seems nothing of word to bring Mag P next or ETA.

If they really wanted only moneys they can cycle Vault Prime more frequently on all old primes that where pulled out between months or week. Along with locking them & make them invalid for trades. Yet, that's not case and have been said from time to time that it will come back eventually.

All due to the player feedback way back then claiming said dilution issues.

IIRC when void was thing it was overflowing with unwanted primes, so they stuff items to keep it varied which was a hit & miss. 

After long trying to quick fix the issue DE decided, along with opening to trade the prime parts, to cycle very old primes & adding new primes to slow down the delusion for now; rather than rely on abysmal low rates and stuffing with silly rewards more and more.

 

Anyways, will U19 be the savior to end all dilusion or add more grind on top of grind? Who knows, I'll eventually find out when it goes live in a few weeks or months. One thing is for sure, I doubt it'll wipe the grind cycle altogether in the near future, but it may lessen it instead. I honestly don't mind the latter option.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Fionntan
Adding on-topic thoughs & word cleaning

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Deathbricked said:

what happens after we get it all?

Tons of stuff. Invasions, dark sector conflicts, syndicate competition (warfare), syndicate quests, more lore quests, and way more. Things that actually causes impact to the game. Let we, as a community, actually be useful at some degree and help shape the environment around us, not beg to RNG for that one prime part to drop.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

49 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

If you don't get it this time- I'm just going to write you off as a ridiculous conspiracy theorist who wants to hate on DE or just a troll.

Once again- read CAREFULLY the bolded text. What you just said is completely ridiculous. It works AGAINST the purpose of easing dilution. If they added those items back in there- it would have prevented FURTHER dilution (which is the POINT of the prime vault)- but since they DIDN'T add ANYTHING... it REDUCED the dilution. This is seriously common sense dude. Can you not comprehend this?

I understand the point you're trying to make, but actually think about how you store stuff. Let's say you're out of space when you get something new. You remove an old item, and put the new thing in its place.

I understand that's not how you see it, but please think about this (I already understood and thought about what you said, and you didn't understand me). What you are implying, by saying what I said makes no sense, is that those items were in places that were already overstuffed. Here's the thing: they weren't! And there are tables now that are more bloated than those which had items removed, which are still having items added. And there are items that people don't want, that drop on the star chart, that are still taking space in void tables. DE removed items from tables that had few, and put items into tables that had lots of stuff. Thus they did nothing to reduce dilution unless you were trying to get Orokin Cells and keys.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist for understanding that DE is a business and we are the customers. Again, I have no problems with a business making money, as long as they're upfront about it. And you know I'm not a troll, so please stop with that.

[GreyEnneract]

If they really thought the void was too crowded then we would have T1-T3 Intercept by now.

The vaults are used for them to make more money, not to help with dilution.