Trinity Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[shootaman777]

9 hours ago, SSNeoman said:

Yes I have to also gripe about Trin in 8 man content. Is it possible to make it scale with the number of players in the group? Because Bless is really hampered in RAID CONTENT as it is.

This was a raise in the difficulty of endgame content, which is the only place where Blessing Trinities are used in the first place.  That was the general intention of the nerf, so pointing it out with all caps won't help.  Do you have any recommendations for changes, or are you calling for a reversion of the nerf?  

[shootaman777]

59 minutes ago, Generalsherman said:

This has really killed any desire to play WF for a while. I honestly thought Trinity was done being nerfed and was in a good spot. It was hard enough playing a Trin that wasn't a EV spammer and this will only get rid of any non-EV builds. 

And guess what's next on Trinity's chopping block?  You guessed it, Energy Vampire!  

[shootaman777]

49 minutes ago, lathera said:

as I said In another thread the new UI elements do not help trinity players that much since we do not know if the people we are supposed to be helping are in range of blessing or not.. damn the dmg mitigation ... just straight up heal should be caped out side of the affinity sharing to half or something ... not straight out elimination of it... the newer maps are a lot bigger and will affect the effectiveness of a lot of squads out there

UI needs a proper indicator of who is in range or not

Healing effect should reduced affected by the range outside the affinity sharing sphere not eliminated entirely

That last point is a bad idea.  It makes a post-Update 18.13 Blessing Trinity's job *that* much harder in providing DR to the team, as teammates are healed by variable amounts, which makes it difficult to decide which teammate needs to take damage next to lower their health enough to make the DR effective.  

[FitzSimmons]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 1:33 AM, (PS4)Magician_NG said:

Can you honestly say that now that Oberon's renewal has more range than Blessing?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA funny joke, ok then, use oberon as main healer from now on, seriously.

[FitzSimmons]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 2:17 AM, x_xUnknownx_x said:

Mostly ths^^... You need a squad to be at the point to die to make use of the damage resistance xD

how the squad will be at the point to die when trinity keep watching their health? that's a healer job, if a healer can't watch their teammates health to save them then the job is not suitable. if there is a warframe that should become the most powerful at give damage reduction, its oberon not trinity.

Edited May 30, 2016 by FitzSimmons

[Ultron9000]

My take on this after playing with her is that the range is being problematic. I get that the 99% damage resistance that would make the whole squad invincible is a problem but taking away the range and reducing it makes blessing inferior to an oberon's heal, considering Trinity is "supposed" to be the support, healer type frame. In pugs, people would usually run around and do their own stuff, unless you tell them to stay close but even so, its becoming a cluster F*** of keeping track of everything. The health, being able to react on someone who's being damaged and healing them right away but they are not there to get it. Keeping track of every player while doing the mission itself and staying alive yourself can be a bit too much. I have no suggestion on the matter, this is just my experience so far.

[lathera]

1 hour ago, shootaman777 said:

That last point is a bad idea.  It makes a post-Update 18.13 Blessing Trinity's job *that* much harder in providing DR to the team, as teammates are healed by variable amounts, which makes it difficult to decide which teammate needs to take damage next to lower their health enough to make the DR effective.  

I understand that, but I think not being able to heal any thing beyond 50m is a bad decision .... so a reduced heal beyond 50 or no heal at all?, I'm just trying not to loose our ability to support the team from long range entirely

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Well, that pretty much killed the last bit of interest I had in this game.

[shootaman777]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Well, that pretty much killed the last bit of interest I had in this game.

If that killed your interest in this game, then why would you care enough to be on the forums?  I take this to mean that you still do have hope for the game, but are very discouraged from all these pending nerfs that will be coming your way, if they have not yet already arrived.  So, I would like to ask:  What direction do you think this game should take to be improved?  

Edited May 30, 2016 by shootaman777
RIP grammar

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, shootaman777 said:

If that killed your interest in this game, then why would you care enough to be on the forums?  I take this to mean that you still do have hope for the game, but are very discouraged from all these pending nerfs that will be coming your way, if they have not yet already arrived.  So, I would like to ask:  What direction do you think this game should take to be improved?  

Sure, there is always the hope that they will roll back these changes before they hit my platform of choice.

[shootaman777]

2 hours ago, lathera said:

I understand that, but I think not being able to heal any thing beyond 50m is a bad decision .... so a reduced heal beyond 50 or no heal at all?, I'm just trying not to loose our ability to support the team from long range entirely

Hmm.. then how about maximum healing range scaling in opposition to duration (as duration increases, maximum healing range decreases), so that low duration and high power strength Energy Vampire Trinities will be able to provide a great heal at a large range, while Blessing (DR) Trinities with high duration will not heal teammates and can focus on giving a DR at the desired percentage?  A Blessing Trinity will not need to heal a teammate in a Colby as they are dying, since there is generally always an Energy Vampire Trinity in the same squad as a Blessing Trinity to begin with that can handle the healing as necessary.  This would also provide balance, and a calculated choice for Trinity users, which DE is a large fan of.  

[shootaman777]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Sure, there is always the hope that they will roll back these changes before they hit my platform of choice.

Hopefully. :)

[shootaman777]

3 hours ago, FitzSimmons said:

how the squad will be at the point to die when trinity keep watching their health? that's a healer job, if a healer can't watch their teammates health to save them then the job is not suitable. if there is a warframe that should become the most powerful at give damage reduction, its oberon not trinity.

That's not the issue here.  In a squad with a Blessing Trinity, there is generally an Energy Vampire Trinity that can cover the healing, as I just typed to lathera in: 

"

Hmm.. then how about maximum healing range [of Blessing] scaling in opposition to duration (as duration increases, maximum healing range decreases), so that low duration and high power strength Energy Vampire Trinities will be able to provide a great heal at a large range, while Blessing (DR) Trinities with high duration will not heal teammates and can focus on giving a DR at the desired percentage?  A Blessing Trinity will not need to heal a teammate in a Colby as they are dying, since there is generally always an Energy Vampire Trinity in the same squad as a Blessing Trinity to begin with that can handle the healing as necessary.  This would also provide balance, and a calculated choice for Trinity users, which DE is a large fan of.  

"

Blessing (DR) Trinities are the ones that got nerfed, not healing Trinities.  And that is also the role of most Energy Vampire Trinities in a squad with a Blessing Trinity, so that is mainly unaffected by the nerf.  

Also, in regards to Oberon, you're right, making Oberon a damage reduction healer is the direction that DE has been moving towards as of late, especially with the new augment Phoenix Renewal.  It is also similar to Blessing Trinities in that in order to keep Renewal active for long enough to make use of this augment, you must damage yourself constantly and/or use low power strength (since Renewal deactivates once the caster and all allies in the range of Renewal are fully healed), like a Blessing Trinity generally does.  However, this needs more work and a reduction of the 90-second mini-Wukong cool down timer to even be considered to be close to endgame viable, unlike Trinity's Blessing which unarguably was endgame, and potentially still can be, even with the large middle finger from DE [nerf] to Blessing.  

[hryelle]

The formula change is the main thing I don't like. A hard cap at 75% DR or so I think would be best. Capping range makes sense and for more challenging play. However, for many maps and missions 50 m is just a bit too low. Maybe instant heal in 50 m, but diminishing amount of heal over 50 m that spreads with duration mods like molecular prime. Other healers needed a buff, not a big nerf to trinity. In other words, when doing a NM raid I would rather think, hmmm do I want be a bless trin, equinox or an oberon; NOT better load up the bless trin. Currently me and my clanmate are testing other healers/DR abilities and guess what, the one that works the best is the one we will use. That's the nature of the game: do the mission in the most efficient and easiest way possible. A new healing meta will be discovered. Instead, it should be have a number of good healers to choose from. Just my 2 cents (and I play a lot of trinty).

Edited May 30, 2016 by hryelle

[FitzSimmons]

1 hour ago, shootaman777 said:

That's not the issue here.  In a squad with a Blessing Trinity, there is generally an Energy Vampire Trinity that can cover the healing, as I just typed to lathera in: 

"

Hmm.. then how about maximum healing range [of Blessing] scaling in opposition to duration (as duration increases, maximum healing range decreases), so that low duration and high power strength Energy Vampire Trinities will be able to provide a great heal at a large range, while Blessing (DR) Trinities with high duration will not heal teammates and can focus on giving a DR at the desired percentage?  A Blessing Trinity will not need to heal a teammate in a Colby as they are dying, since there is generally always an Energy Vampire Trinity in the same squad as a Blessing Trinity to begin with that can handle the healing as necessary.  This would also provide balance, and a calculated choice for Trinity users, which DE is a large fan of.  

"

Blessing (DR) Trinities are the ones that got nerfed, not healing Trinities.  And that is also the role of most Energy Vampire Trinities in a squad with a Blessing Trinity, so that is mainly unaffected by the nerf.  

Also, in regards to Oberon, you're right, making Oberon a damage reduction healer is the direction that DE has been moving towards as of late, especially with the new augment Phoenix Renewal.  It is also similar to Blessing Trinities in that in order to keep Renewal active for long enough to make use of this augment, you must damage yourself constantly and/or use low power strength (since Renewal deactivates once the caster and all allies in the range of Renewal are fully healed), like a Blessing Trinity generally does.  However, this needs more work and a reduction of the 90-second mini-Wukong cool down timer to even be considered to be close to endgame viable, unlike Trinity's Blessing which unarguably was endgame, and potentially still can be, even with the large middle finger from DE [nerf] to Blessing.  

so what if trinity DR is not as OP as it used to be? I'm sure even in raid people still looking for warframes that do big area stun or loki who disarm almost the entire map, frost for defense. I mean what's the point of DR if your enemies can't even damage you?

[hryelle]

29 minutes ago, FitzSimmons said:

so what if trinity DR is not as OP as it used to be? I'm sure even in raid people still looking for warframes that do big area stun or loki who disarm almost the entire map, frost for defense. I mean what's the point of DR if your enemies can't even damage you?

Makes the first stage easier and takes pressure off ev, despite it being doable with ev casting bless a lot. However, now as ev you need a lot more awareness of bomb carrier energy, everyone's health, and now dealing with people being in range or you getting in range. Vitality is almost mandatory now. All of this makes it a lot harder for ev to hack. I wouldn't want a new player to be ev in a raid now. DR is also another layer of protection in case something fails or someone dc's. Obviously decoy loki for the final part means you don't need the 99% DR, but the first stage is a bit more challenging.

Edited May 31, 2016 by hryelle

[keen211]

Blessing needed a nerf. I am, however, extremely dissappointed with the changes it got and would like to raise some points and propose some solutions.

 -Blessing can still achieve ridiculous damage reduction and a coordinated team can still pull off cheesing the game (Inaros/nekros with despoil's hability to drain their own health just as an example). This change wont affect those exploiting the skill since those players will still find a way to break the game.

-Players that used trin as she was supposed to be used (without cheesing the game with self damage) before the nerf were the most affected of all, not the ones exploiting the skill. Using blessing based on reaction is now even harder, I would even argue unjustly so.

-Now on pub survivals, interceptions and other game modes were the map is pretty large the trin will either have to run away from the team and get blessed to achieve 99% reduction or keep babysitting their teamates to stay close so she can heal them.

-Trinity is know at the verge of becoming the most frustratingly annoying frame in the whole game. Consider this: if you want to play as a mixed EV/Bless trin you now have to pay attention to your health, your energy, your teammates healths, your teammates energies, your blessing timer, your link timer AND the affinity and EV range. And all that isnt even considering the enemies around you.

 

 Possible solutions:

 

-Make bless have a cooldown. I know scott has said "No cooldowns" but I still think its a good idea and I havent seen him explain exactly what his problem is with cooldowns (Maybe a cooldown killed his parents). I dont think this change by itself would solve the problem but it will certanly help as well as prevent players from achieving 99% damage reduction the whole mission. Maybe capping the reduction at around 40-70% along with this change would be a good idea.

-Replace bless entirely, give trin the excalibur treatment. Ive seen many good sugestions on the forums so I'll just list some of the better ones:

  -Bless is a toggle that gives the entire team a shared HP pool and damage reduction

  -Bless is a toggle that gives all players health regen and damage reduction based on how low their health is

  -Bless revives all fallen allies to full health and gives them 30-60% damage reduction for a short duration.

-Make the other skills in her kit better. Well of life is useless, a waste of a skill. EV is overrated, serves the same purpose as energy restores. Link is good but annoying as F*** to keep recasting, also its useless on low duration trinities such as EV trin. Right now trinity has been kept relevant thanks to how OP bless was and because of new/lazy/greedy players who do not use restores.

[Naboolah]

Much of what has been said about Trin's changes have already been said but I still would like to give my feedback. I'm not a Trin main, but I do have a Blessing ie Duration build that I use occasionally. Here are my thoughts:

1. Prior to this change, Blessing Trin was too powerful for too little skill/tactical awareness needed.

 A Blessing Trin's job would be to do self damage, use quick thinking, and bless to heal and give a 99% damage reduction to all raid members in infinite range. You don't need to even care where you were, or have any situational awareness. You just self damage, bless, and wait for the duration to run out, and repeat. All other team mates would also not need to care about being reckless or enter risky situations because you have an infinite 99% damage reduction regardless of where you were, regardless of whether you needed it or not.

2. Blessing Trin now demands attention more situational awareness from both the Trin and the team.

I agree that with this change, it encourages more tactical play from both the blessing trin as well as other raid members to be more watchful about what they are doing. If you're a hallway hero in a high level defense mission and die because you're out of range of Trin's blessing, I think that's, well, correct and sensible, as compared to prior to the change, Trinity would be "responsible" for the hallway hero's survival, which encourages a reckless playstyle. This change, in my opinion, encourages more tactical play, more situational awareness, and overall, makes raids and high level missions more challenging, as it should be.  Blessing trin will now require a lot more tactical awareness from both herself and her team mates, which is what a healer's role should be, and I believe players who love playing healer roles will appreciate that this rewards skillful play and team work from the whole team, and shifts some of the responsibility of being a helpful raid/party member back to those who are damage dealers to take more calculated risks.

3. This opens up the meta to more healing/support roles, hopefully.

In time, the meta may look for more options for heals and damage reduction, such as Equinox's Mend or other damage reduction builds and frames, Oberon being mentioned frequently, Slowva to slow things down for more time for tactical planning, instead of Trinity's monotonous Blessing Dura play. Or how about bringing your own heals if you're caught outside of range for whatever reason? How about modding for more survivability? 

4. Suggestions

While the release is still very recent, and I tried to play the blessing duration build outside of raids, I feel it definitely has changed how I play the healing role. I would like to see some sort of indicator, rather than the static HUD team health indicator, to show where the player who needs the heal the most is, something like maybe, when a player has lost shields and hits 50% health or something, a waypoint of sorts (perhaps this can be a passive?) to show Trin who's in danger, and then Trin can decide well, is it worth the risk to go over to heal, or to let the player who took the risk to die, and feedback to the player why he/she could not be healed. 

5. Final notes and disclaimers for potential flamers:

I am fully aware that some of the points I mentioned above are not possible for new players. Trinity, in my humble opinion, should be a frame that rewards skillful, tactical play as supportive roles should be, and rightfully new players who pick up a trinity should have, by the time they hit Ceres, to farm the normal trin, learnt a thing or two about how Warframe is designed to be played and the mechanics of the game.

With that said, I expect the EV trin will be the next to undergo changes :)

I'm not an expert on Trinity, so please don't flame me for things I may not be aware about, such as the complaints on JV because I only have experience on LOR, hence I have no comment on how this has affected players familar with JV.

Thank you Tenno for being a great community.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Naboolah

[keen211]

3 minutes ago, Naboolah said:

2. Blessing Trin now demands attention more situational awareness from both the Trin and the team.

I agree that with this change, it encourages more tactical play from both the blessing trin as well as other raid members to be more watchful about what they are doing. If you're a hallway hero in a high level defense mission and die because you're out of range of Trin's blessing, I think that's, well, correct and sensible, as compared to prior to the change, Trinity would be "responsible" for the hallway hero's survival, which encourages a reckless playstyle. This change, in my opinion, encourages more tactical play, more situational awareness, and overall, makes raids and high level missions more challenging, as it should be.  Blessing trin will now require a lot more tactical awareness from both herself and her team mates, which is what a healer's role should be, and I believe players who love playing healer roles will appreciate that this rewards skillful play and team work from the whole team, and shifts some of the responsibility of being a helpful raid/party member back to those who are damage dealers to take more calculated risks.

 Agreed to all your points except this one. Warframe isnt about tactical play and positioning (At least most of the times, raids are a bit of an exception) its about movement and fast paced combat. Keeping track of all players parkouring around the map in a survival is impossible unless you're camping. Promoting tactical play is good but punishing free movement and acrobacy is kind of the oposite of what warframe has been about so far. At one point you're gonna have to choose one or the other.

[Naboolah]

2 minutes ago, keen211 said:

 Agreed to all your points except this one. Warframe isnt about tactical play and positioning (At least most of the times, raids are a bit of an exception) its about movement and fast paced combat. Keeping track of all players parkouring around the map in a survival is impossible unless you're camping. Promoting tactical play is good but punishing free movement and acrobacy is kind of the oposite of what warframe has been about so far. At one point you're gonna have to choose one or the other.

Thank you for your comment. Yes, I agree that Warframe is designed to be fast paced and well, run and gun for the most part. I would say that this isn't really punishing movement, because if you're into parkouring and free moving and melee-ing, I am saying in the context of a Blessing Dura trin, it is a little too cheesy for the trin to be the one watching your back from infinite range if you're a little reckless doing what you do. I am just saying, players who take the risk of rushing into dangerous situations will not be getting an easy 99% damage reduction. You will need to also look out for your supporting Trin, and also be aware that your playstyle has its risks. I figure most reasonable run and gun players would have the sense to know how to use their own survivability methods/skills, and this hopefully will encourage run and gun players to improve their playstyle better to avoid getting killed, such as running straight to a nullifer or bombard or heavy gunner aiming right at you. 

Cheers, and thank you.

[keen211]

1 minute ago, Naboolah said:

Thank you for your comment. Yes, I agree that Warframe is designed to be fast paced and well, run and gun for the most part. I would say that this isn't really punishing movement, because if you're into parkouring and free moving and melee-ing, I am saying in the context of a Blessing Dura trin, it is a little too cheesy for the trin to be the one watching your back from infinite range if you're a little reckless doing what you do. I am just saying, players who take the risk of rushing into dangerous situations will not be getting an easy 99% damage reduction. You will need to also look out for your supporting Trin, and also be aware that your playstyle has its risks. I figure most reasonable run and gun players would have the sense to know how to use their own survivability methods/skills, and this hopefully will encourage run and gun players to improve their playstyle better to avoid getting killed, such as running straight to a nullifer or bombard or heavy gunner aiming right at you. 

Cheers, and thank you.

 

 No problem, I'm a sucker for discussing balance and game mechanics ;)

You can see it as punishing reckless players for straying too far from the trin, but I see as more of an annoyance to the trin who will have to go revive their sorry &#!. I play a lot of trin the way she is supposed to be played (Reacting with bless to low health players as oposed to cheesing by damaging myself) and I must tell you that I already need to pay attention to: My health and energy, my teammates' health and energy, EV range, Bless duration and link duration. It leaves little time to do anything other than take care of my team and I dont like the idea of another thing to worry about while playing trin, like keeping an eye if my teammates are being stupid and reckless.

[Arrik]

All i really want is an indicator on my HUD that tells me which players I'm currently in affinity share range, it sucks when I go to heal someone but they were off being a snowflake doing their own thing.

[Naboolah]

8 minutes ago, keen211 said:

 

 No problem, I'm a sucker for discussing balance and game mechanics ;)

You can see it as punishing reckless players for straying too far from the trin, but I see as more of an annoyance to the trin who will have to go revive their sorry &#!. I play a lot of trin the way she is supposed to be played (Reacting with bless to low health players as oposed to cheesing by damaging myself) and I must tell you that I already need to pay attention to: My health and energy, my teammates' health and energy, EV range, Bless duration and link duration. It leaves little time to do anything other than take care of my team and I dont like the idea of another thing to worry about while playing trin, like keeping an eye if my teammates are being stupid and reckless.

Totally agree with the annoyance! Playing trinity before the update was already a challenge with your raid members calling out "EV EV EV EV BLESS BLESS BLESS" when you're struggling to find enemies to EV in the right range of your scattered teamates and looking out for your own survival, whether you're in range for Link, and when you're dead, the team's dead. 

It's tough being a Trin, and I agree with your point that it just got tougher. Time for the other players to appreciate Trin players more and up their own game. :) No offence to anyone.

 

Thanks for your insights. Appreciate it.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Naboolah

[keen211]

5 minutes ago, Naboolah said:

Thanks for your insights. Appreciate it.

Hey, thank you for the conversation! ;) As I said before that was the only point you made that I had any issue with, all the other ones were pretty insightful and fair.

Also a civil discussion on the forums? I must be going insane...

[BCAW]

My one gripe with the Trinity rework is the new damage reduction calculation. The fact that Trinity's survivability can be negatively affected by the presence of teammates is, in my opinion, bad game design that discourages teamplay.