Genders

[StahlEngel]

Has anyone thought about the simple approach of not having suits but kits, basically you have your Tenno , be it male or female then each frame aka Banshee, Ash, Excalibur are just kits that bolt onto your chosen base frame, this would simplify adding new frames and reduce how much animation would be required by developers and allow every one to have a great deal more immersion and make the developers lives easier.

[Solaurus]

The lore in this game is still very young and can be molded in many directions. Every time they add a new frame they change the lore. At the beginning there were only a few Warframes and latter more were added. Now we have over a dozen (more will be coming I am sure). The lore may speak of each frame, but as far as I know it never specifies if it's wearer is male or female.

Also, some people claim that each Warframe is an individual and not a suit. If this is the case, why is it that we acquire blueprints for new frames and gather materials to build it? We aren't gathering mystical artifacts to resurrect a Warframe.We aren't going on lengthy missions to free a captive Tenno. We are gathering materials to build a new suit.

So if I play as a male who is gathering all these blueprints and materials to build a new suit, it is only logical that he is building it for himself. Therefore if he built a MAG Warframe, he should be a male MAG, not female... Unless Tenno have the ability to change their bits at will.

Maybe it takes resources because we found another Tenno from a cryopod and are rebuilding the suit that they wore when they were unfrozen. And who says we are the same Tenno. Unless the devs say that outright we have no choice but to assume that all the frames are different Tenno we pick out of an unlockable roster. The thought of multi gendered frames is restrictive story wise. Why if the devs want to add bios to the frames. What would the "Spark"'s be? Ember's cousin who just tried way to hard to even EXIST? Just let the game progress the way it is. Don't fix what isn't broken and don't make the devs divulge time from making something useful to making boy and girl versions for everyone like its the first grade.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Solaurus

[aTaVaX]

 That's not how it goes. What you are referring to is sexism. What we are talking about here can be considered role play. When playing an online multiplayer games it is a good thing to give players a choice in customizing their character to their liking. Sure, we have color schemes and loadouts, but wouldn't it be even more awesome if you could choose what gender of Tenno you want to be?

 

 Picture an MMORPG where all warrior classes are males and all casters are female. How dull of an game would that be? This game may not be an open world game, but it IS an MMO.

 

 Again, it isn't about being sexist, it's about player choice and customization.

 

 

PS

 

 We have alternate skins for some weapons in the shop, that is a useless (but kool). level of customization. A step in the right direction.

 

the two people above my post you're quoting seemed to indicate they would love to play ember, but can't because there is only a female option...I would like to better understand their problem. 

 

also, not sure what you mean by saying this game is a MMO. I don't really see anything that makes this game more of an MMO than say CoD or TF2. Do you consider those games MMOs? MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online, right? We all agree its multiplayer and online. Massive doesn't describe how successful the game is, right? It describes the number of people actively playing with each other in the multiplayer. In warframe it is all 4 player co op. Thats very small. Tf2 has 32x32 servers for example.

Edited June 18, 2013 by aTaVaX

[Solaurus]

the two people above my post you're quoting seemed to indicate they would love to play ember, but can't because there is only a female option...I would like to better understand their problem.

Well why should gender stop them? If they want to play it so badly why not play it? I just think that designing models for every warframe to have an opposite gender is too time consuming and unimportant. Just deal with what you get., DE has more important fish to fry like balancing skills, adding mods, fixing bugs, and adding more tile sets and enemies. Especially now that the ps4 is on the horizon

[Izeck]

the two people above my post you're quoting seemed to indicate they would love to play ember, but can't because there is only a female option...I would like to better understand their problem. 

 

also, not sure what you mean by saying this game is a MMO. I don't really see anything that makes this game more of an MMO than say CoD or TF2. Do you consider those games MMOs? MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online, right? We all agree its multiplayer and online. Massive doesn't describe how successful the game is, right? It describes the number of people actively playing with each other in the multiplayer. In warframe it is all 4 player co op. Thats very small. Tf2 has 32x32 servers for example.

 

 Some players like to role play and, believe it or not, some role players will not break their role. If they are playing a male Tenno, they will not change to a female, it breaks immersion. For me is more of an immersion thing, I'm not a hardcore role player, but I do like immersion and choice.

 

 Also, about the MMO thing. I guess I might be wrong on the MMO thing, but the way I see it. We may not be able to play together in the same mission and at the same time, but we are all able to interact with each other out of missions through chat. Even though we are not seeing each other in a lobby, the map screen is a sort of lobby where all players gather and chat.

 

 To me that gives the game an MMO feel.

[Otaiken]

I actually doubt that Tenno ever leave their suits. I think they are cloned, trained and after that their suit is basically built/grown over their body. You can't actually take it off. There are no connecting pieces either as fas as I can see. So the person inside the suit IS the suit itself. You don't switch suits, you switch between different Tenno.

 

Only time you see "naked" Tenno is on rescue missions and I think that is because Corpus/Grineer had to actually cut them out of their frame.

[Izeck]

I actually doubt that Tenno ever leave their suits. I think they are cloned, trained and after that their suit is basically built/grown over their body. You can't actually take it off. There are no connecting pieces either as fas as I can see. So the person inside the suit IS the suit itself. You don't switch suits, you switch between different Tenno.

 

Only time you see "naked" Tenno is on rescue missions and I think that is because Corpus/Grineer had to actually cut them out of their frame.

 

 It would be kind of hard to live inside a suit of armor without a mouth piece or any other opening. The Tenno clearly (As seen in Defense missions) have a mouth which implies at the need to eat. Not to mention the complications of Hygiene when living in a suit for the rest of your life.

 

 I can understand the theme of bonding with your suit to the point that you are basically one entity, but there has to be some point where you have to take it off.

[aTaVaX]

 

 Also, about the MMO thing. I guess I might be wrong on the MMO thing, but the way I see it. We may not be able to play together in the same mission and at the same time, but we are all able to interact with each other out of missions through chat. Even though we are not seeing each other in a lobby, the map screen is a sort of lobby where all players gather and chat.

 

 To me that gives the game an MMO feel.

 

i can understand that, but it seems like almost all multiplayer games have that type of thing nowadays. They want people to build communities and take advantage of the large player base. I would say the best argument for Warframe being a mmo might be the guild halls. But even the guild halls can't have that many people on the same guild hall server, can they? And then although i am not that familiar with the most modern CoD-esk games, don't many modern shooter games have like clan support like maybe achievements you can accomplish with other people on your friends list? So even they have objectives that are accomplished through the combined effort of a much larger group of people. In many ways i think you see people from other genre's trying to take what was so successful from other genre's which is why it can be difficult to categorize games, because games have taken what is popular from like mmo's and tried to implement it in their shooters. Or i guess a different example would be games like portal or bioshock that both clearly use the very popular and familiar gun mechanics but i wouldn't say the focus of either was the shooting mechanics, and wouldn't call either a shooter. 

[aTaVaX]

 It would be kind of hard to live inside a suit of armor without a mouth piece or any other opening. The Tenno clearly (As seen in Defense missions) have a mouth which implies at the need to eat. Not to mention the complications of Hygiene when living in a suit for the rest of your life.

 

 I can understand the theme of bonding with your suit to the point that you are basically one entity, but there has to be some point where you have to take it off.

 

that i disagree with. As technology progresses, eventually what you can build surpasses the performance of what you are born with and would be permanently attached to the species either surgically or through exoskeletons. Think artificial hearts or maybe even artificial expansions on your brain. Something as simple as bodily fluid and eating food would be something easy to design the function into a suit with without forcing them to take it off.  I mean, we even have stuff now where you can be nourished through a needle and catheters for the other end... 

Edited June 18, 2013 by aTaVaX

[Izeck]

that i disagree with. As technology progresses, eventually what you can build surpasses the performance of what you are born with and would be permanently attached to the species either surgically or through exoskeletons. Think artificial hearts or maybe even artificial expansions on your brain. Something as simple as bodily fluid and eating food would be something easy to design the function into a suit with without forcing them to take it off.  I mean, we even have stuff now where you can be nourished through a needle and catheters for the other end... 

 

 The thing is that nowhere in the lore does it say that the Tenno being cyborgs who fuse with the Warframe. They speak of the Tenno, masters of the Warframe (paraphrasing of course).

[Gestalt]

So Steve just came out on the livestream and said that gender options are really a resources problem (limited resources; as we've known all along pretty much, but good to hear it said out loud).

That's actually good, since it means it's not being opposed by the devs from a ideological standpoint. We can probably expect it in the far future.

Just gotta be patient.

[CapricaSix]

So Steve just came out on the livestream and said that gender options are really a resources problem (limited resources; as we've known all along pretty much, but good to hear it said out loud).

That's actually good, since it means it's not being opposed by the devs from a ideological standpoint. We can probably expect it in the far future.

Just gotta be patient.

I remember hearing a distinct NO to the genderswap subject as a whole, but they still seem to be supporting the Ember/Blaze idea.

[BBYipho]

The problem most people have is they want to use the same abilities in a different gender version of their frame.

 

Let's think logically. They said it costs more resources to do this. I mean you have to take someone out of their "to do" list and make them do more work and still finish the work they have. Now resources ends up being that DE has to hire more designers to do the work.

 

As of right now the answer is no. In the future? We may still get it. We may also get alternate suits. They already confirmed they wanted to do nick naks on our suits.

[CapricaSix]

The problem most people have is they want to use the same abilities in a different gender version of their frame.

 

Let's think logically. They said it costs more resources to do this. I mean you have to take someone out of their "to do" list and make them do more work and still finish the work they have. Now resources ends up being that DE has to hire more designers to do the work.

 

As of right now the answer is no. In the future? We may still get it. We may also get alternate suits. They already confirmed they wanted to do nick naks on our suits.

Or they could make them plat-only purchases? I'd buy it. I'd buy them all :x

[Gestalt]

I remember hearing a distinct NO to the genderswap subject as a whole, but they still seem to be supporting the Ember/Blaze idea.

I guess I don't get the whole picture, since I only watch livestreams. They probably say a lot of stuff to the design council or in forum posts, which I have no way to follow, since they don't highlight posts responded by staff members in a different color like with WoW forum threads.

But yeah, the current opinions of the devs seem to finally aligh to a "not now".

[Cursor]

The problem most people have is they want to use the same abilities in a different gender version of their frame.

Very much this.  If you make an entirely new frame that's merely themed in the same way as another, then you're not at all appealing to the desire to play the alternate version of an existing frame.  For example, if I enjoy playing Ember, I don't give a crap about a male fire-themed frame if their abilities don't appeal to me.

 

And on the topic of resources, it is literally twice the work to make entirely new frames that simply share themes with existing ones.  While adding swaps still requires work and resources, it's significantly less so than doubling our roster.

 

And finally, and I keep having to repeat this, DE's adherence to this whole "each frame is a unique character" is simply being ignorant to the information being conveyed to us via the game's conventions and it's gameplay.  They can insist on what is the message they intended all they want, the actual message being sent to players, in this case, is entirely different.  I would much prefer they accept what the game is telling us than stubbornly keep grumbling that it's not what they meant to have happen.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Cursor

[Nerokerubina]

Not only is this game sexest but it's also racist. Where are my African American, Latino, Filipino, Brazilian, Egyptian female Warframes? Why isn't this game multi-cultral?

[CapricaSix]

I guess I don't get the whole picture, since I only watch livestreams. They probably say a lot of stuff to the design council or in forum posts, which I have no way to follow, since they don't highlight posts responded by staff members in a different color like with WoW forum threads.

But yeah, the current opinions of the devs seem to finally aligh to a "not now".

I was referring to the livestream earlier, they seemed quite negative towards the genderswap from what I could see, it was like "Nuh uh!" before Rebecca could finish saying "Gende-" :P was that just my imagination I wonder. Followed by some positive yet vague mumbling about Ember/Blaze. Maybe I should watch it again.

 

Edit: the discussion starts at 0:58:55, insinuating that they're choosing ember/blaze over direct genderswap but nothing solid has been said on the subject...

 

But Design Council is conflicted on the subject as well, there are lots of people who want it, and lots oppose it for either personal reasons {DOTA...} or their own idea of prioritising things.

Edited June 19, 2013 by CapricaSix

[Gestalt]

I was referring to the livestream earlier, they seemed quite negative towards the genderswap from what I could see, it was like "Nuh uh!" before Rebecca could finish saying "Gende-" :P was that just my imagination I wonder. Followed by some positive yet vague mumbling about Ember/Blaze. Maybe I should watch it again.

 

Edit: the discussion starts at 0:58:55, insinuating that they're choosing ember/blaze over direct genderswap but nothing solid has been said on the subject...

 

But Design Council is conflicted on the subject as well, there are lots of people who want it, and lots oppose it for either personal reasons {DOTA...} or their own idea of prioritising things.

Ah ok. Yeah on stream they seemed to be all opposed to it, which was a minor shocker to me, since on previous streams it was always divided between Scotty who opposes it and everyone else either don't care or are for it. Guess the added PS4 port added so much additional work for the whole team, they just decided that it's not worth the effort for now at least.

Still can't forgive the people who are opposed to it due to personal preference. More options is always good. If you don't like the options, just pretend they don't exist... GRRRRR HULK IS ANGRY HULK SMASH!!!

But yeah, the resources concern is a very real one and one everyone can respect.

[WinterKnives]

Maybe they could make gender benders and for instance add in a seperate frame which has a set of 4 new skills. This new frame must be made but shares everything polarity, lvl, etc... with current model. These must be made or bought as a seperate frame entirely and would cost the same as the previous model or slightly more. They did want more skills but this would 1 give people the ability to choose powers that they want and increase the capacity to mix and match for a set type of frame (fire, psychic, etc...).

[CapricaSix]

Ah ok. Yeah on stream they seemed to be all opposed to it, which was a minor shocker to me, since on previous streams it was always divided between Scotty who opposes it and everyone else either don't care or are for it. Guess the added PS4 port added so much additional work for the whole team, they just decided that it's not worth the effort for now at least.

Still can't forgive the people who are opposed to it due to personal preference. More options is always good. If you don't like the options, just pretend they don't exist... GRRRRR HULK IS ANGRY HULK SMASH!!!

But yeah, the resources concern is a very real one and one everyone can respect.

Couldn't agree more, but then nothing is set in stone just yet either.

[McCrabby]

I was referring to the livestream earlier, they seemed quite negative towards the genderswap from what I could see, it was like "Nuh uh!" before Rebecca could finish saying "Gende-" :P was that just my imagination I wonder. Followed by some positive yet vague mumbling about Ember/Blaze. Maybe I should watch it again.

 

Edit: the discussion starts at 0:58:55, insinuating that they're choosing ember/blaze over direct genderswap but nothing solid has been said on the subject...

 

But Design Council is conflicted on the subject as well, there are lots of people who want it, and lots oppose it for either personal reasons {DOTA...} or their own idea of prioritising things.

 

Near the end of the stream, when I was actually watching, they addressed the gender issue and said that if they ever give the frames two genders, it would be two different frames using the same thing.  I'm not sure what Ember/Blaze is but that sounds like what they're going for.  I actually like this idea as long as they can make the two frames distinct enough.  Eventually we're going to run out of themes (I mean come on, they were going to make a necromancer warframe).

[CapricaSix]

Near the end of the stream, when I was actually watching, they addressed the gender issue and said that if they ever give the frames two genders, it would be two different frames using the same thing.  I'm not sure what Ember/Blaze is but that sounds like what they're going for.  I actually like this idea as long as they can make the two frames distinct enough.  Eventually we're going to run out of themes (I mean come on, they were going to make a necromancer warframe).

The Ember/Blaze thing is a reference to some early concept a user suggested. Basically it's more or less genderswapped warframes but with slightly different powers and of course genders. So instead of female Ember and male Ember, we get female Ember and male Blaze. Same for all the other warframes. That's about it really. Although Scott doesn't think it's quite genderswap but that's irrelevant.

[Venarge]

And on the topic of resources, it is literally twice the work to make entirely new frames that simply share themes with existing ones.  While adding swaps still requires work and resources, it's significantly less so than doubling our roster.

So where do all these new frames drop from? Who is making the loot tables for them? A new awesome design has to be made for the new one. Doesnt matter if themed or just male. It should look and play right. And that is definitly more work than you want us to tell....

[SirMelf]

Nyx has the female version of Excaliburs body. I dont see the problem in evening out some boobs, stretching shoulders and chest, and making the muscules a little bigger. Thats not tons of work, not comparable to making a new model.