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Rework Maiming Strike


Heidrek
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It kills any that's non-beserker builds. Slide attacks already have a lot of damage anyway. 

Want to add some links to more of my work.

Edit: Putting more words because of lack of debates. 
Where can we put status builds, Charge attack builds, or just pure damage builds. Mellee is the same stance over and over again, just one is a bit faster due to being more beserker viable. It also results in one weapon Outclassing every single weapon in its class. I'm going to be honest, I haven't used a non crit build on the dex dakras, or the dual kamas. You have to keep hitting the enemy and beserker is the best way to do that. To be honest I haven't even touched my dual ichors or prisma cleavers because it's the same beserker build EVERYONE uses. Maiming Strike straight up destroyed any other non crit build I used. It's just too important want to proc? need to hit the enemy and get them on half health. charge attacks are independent of speed, so no point.

Edited by Heidrek
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I'll throw in my vote to keep it as it is. I don't use berserker and haven't since these mods were released. I can finally get decent dps on melee weapons without having to use attack speed mods(E2: or Warcry or Speed).

E: Also maiming strike isn't just for spinning slide attacks.

 

Edited by Xrkr
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On 6/8/2016 at 4:50 PM, Xrkr said:

I'll throw in my vote to keep it as it is. I don't use berserker and haven't since these mods were released. I can finally get decent dps on melee weapons without having to use attack speed mods(E2: or Warcry or Speed).

E: Also maiming strike isn't just for spinning slide attacks.

 

it is

 

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1 hour ago, Heidrek said:

you can use it to stack beserker 

And?

You can use anything that increases Critical hits to stack Berserker. This just makes a little easier. Not as OP as some things in game by a LONG shot. (Tonkor anyone?)

 

Melee has ALWAYS been the red headed stepchild of Warframe, never doing as much damage as abilities, primary and secondary weapons. Now, it is starting to gain ground, so of course it has to be nerfed. Makes perfect sense to me!

Edited by Kalenath
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Maiming Strike should be left as is. It's a great way for weapons without a high base crit-chance to take advantage of Berserker, if they're willing to spend a mod slot.

It's kind of balanced really. Not just from how rare that mod is, but also; it costs a mod slot. Of which we only have so many at any given time. It's a finite resource. No amount of formas can change that.

So, if someone wants their Orthos P to have a fully-charged Berserker on and turn into a freaking helicopter blade? Their choice. Right or wrong, that is their choice.

And of COURSE it's a mod that works great with Berserker -that's the point of it. A way for all melee weapons to use Berserker rather than a few of them. I don't know if you've noticed it, but Berserker has been a BIG thing in melee, for a long time. Lots of melee weapons are made or broken by whether or not they can use it, as opposed to any other benefit they might have.

And now, we have a mod that can let ALL weapons benefit from Berserker. It's not an exclusive mod.

Besides, the Blood Rush+Body Count+Berserker combo is even costlier (both in slots and mod energy), so there's balance there as well.

Maiming Strike is perfectly fine as is. There's weapons that like using it, there's weapons that don't care about using it. Besides, slide attacks aren't done for damage anyway. They're done to open a fight by crashing into your enemies like the hammer of an angry god or to get that bit of extra movement to place you in the right place for something else.

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3 hours ago, Kalenath said:

And?

You can use anything that increases Critical hits to stack Berserker. This just makes a little easier. Not as OP as some things in game by a LONG shot. (Tonkor anyone?)

 

Melee has ALWAYS been the red headed stepchild of Warframe, never doing as much damage as abilities, primary and secondary weapons. Now, it is starting to gain ground, so of course it has to be nerfed. Makes perfect sense to me!

 

2 hours ago, Lyravain said:

Maiming Strike should be left as is. It's a great way for weapons without a high base crit-chance to take advantage of Berserker, if they're willing to spend a mod slot.

It's kind of balanced really. Not just from how rare that mod is, but also; it costs a mod slot. Of which we only have so many at any given time. It's a finite resource. No amount of formas can change that.

So, if someone wants their Orthos P to have a fully-charged Berserker on and turn into a freaking helicopter blade? Their choice. Right or wrong, that is their choice.

And of COURSE it's a mod that works great with Berserker -that's the point of it. A way for all melee weapons to use Berserker rather than a few of them. I don't know if you've noticed it, but Berserker has been a BIG thing in melee, for a long time. Lots of melee weapons are made or broken by whether or not they can use it, as opposed to any other benefit they might have.

And now, we have a mod that can let ALL weapons benefit from Berserker. It's not an exclusive mod.

Besides, the Blood Rush+Body Count+Berserker combo is even costlier (both in slots and mod energy), so there's balance there as well.

Maiming Strike is perfectly fine as is. There's weapons that like using it, there's weapons that don't care about using it. Besides, slide attacks aren't done for damage anyway. They're done to open a fight by crashing into your enemies like the hammer of an angry god or to get that bit of extra movement to place you in the right place for something else.

But what other builds can this open weapons for because mellee is just the same weapons depending on how fast they are. Currently what's the difference with dual kama and the dark split sword, or better yet dual Ichor. They're the same weapon just one is more beserker viable and has damage that minutely displaced. Where can we put status builds, Charge attack builds, or just pure damage builds. Mellee is the same thing over and over again. It also results in one weapon Outclassing every single weapon in its class. I'm going to be honest, I haven't used a non crit build on the dex dakras, or the dual kamas. I haven't even touched my dual ichors or prisma cleavers because it's the same beserker build EVERYONE uses. Maiming Strike straight up destroyed any other non crit build I used.

Edited by Heidrek
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3 hours ago, Kalenath said:

And?

You can use anything that increases Critical hits to stack Berserker. This just makes a little easier. Not as OP as some things in game by a LONG shot. (Tonkor anyone?)

 

Melee has ALWAYS been the red headed stepchild of Warframe, never doing as much damage as abilities, primary and secondary weapons. Now, it is starting to gain ground, so of course it has to be nerfed. Makes perfect sense to me!

for OP weapons. Well I was never an ability spamming player. I preferred using guns, and having tonkor was really not an issue for me. The game has giant rooms full of enemies and shooting tonkor does kill them but you still have like 80% of the room to kill so the player has to balance that out with reloading, aiming, and planning the arc of the weapon. So it's really not a big deal such as say mirage locking down a room with her prism, or embers leaving there world on fire on in any starchart mission. Tonkor may deal a lot of damage, and little self damage, but it's always had it's downsides. Nerfing tonkor does nothing as the next strongest weapon takes its place. Tonkor is its own thing and I still use my penta so not really bothered by that even though I'm not an explosives guy. It doesn't even destroy build diversity. The issue is rather than an overpowering gun, it's an over power modin Mellee. In mellee every weapon in one class is the same besides being more faster or more beserkerable. the more beserkable a weapon is the better. Now I don't want other nonbeserkable weapons being forced into the same route. It's extremely boring. I want them to be more. I want status builds, channeling builds, charge attack builds, Hell maybe even a quick mellee build. not the same slide 3x to get max stacks and eeeeeeeeee. 

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On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 3:02 PM, Heidrek said:

It kills any that's non-beserker builds. Slide attacks already have a lot of damage anyway. 

Want to add some links to more of my work.

Edit: Putting more words because of lack of debates. 
Where can we put status builds, Charge attack builds, or just pure damage builds. Mellee is the same stance over and over again, just one is a bit faster due to being more beserker viable. It also results in one weapon Outclassing every single weapon in its class. I'm going to be honest, I haven't used a non crit build on the dex dakras, or the dual kamas. You have to keep hitting the enemy and beserker is the best way to do that. To be honest I haven't even touched my dual ichors or prisma cleavers because it's the same beserker build EVERYONE uses. Maiming Strike straight up destroyed any other non crit build I used. It's just too important want to proc? need to hit the enemy and get them on half health. charge attacks are independent of speed, so no point.

I do understand your point honestly and I see where you're coming from. The issue is not maiming strike itself. The issue is the lack of options for status in particular but also because of diminishing returns status gives you. What I mean is, yes we have weeping wounds, but nobody really uses it because in the long run, there's no benefit to being over 100% status chance; There's no red-crit of status. I'd actually argue there might not even need to be and you can honestly have the best of both worlds. Weapons like Lesion have a high status chance and you can build for crit thanks to blood rush + maiming strike while taking advantage of those status procs. Channeling builds are a whole other issue all together. That definitely needs a rework. But in terms of Crit vs Status, I do see your point but I think they shouldn't remove options for crit and instead increase viable options for status and incentivize long-run builds that would incorporate Weeping wounds just as we have Blood rush for crit.

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12 hours ago, Heidrek said:

 

But what other builds can this open weapons for because mellee is just the same weapons depending on how fast they are. Currently what's the difference with dual kama and the dark split sword, or better yet dual Ichor. They're the same weapon just one is more beserker viable and has damage that minutely displaced. Where can we put status builds, Charge attack builds, or just pure damage builds. Mellee is the same thing over and over again. It also results in one weapon Outclassing every single weapon in its class. I'm going to be honest, I haven't used a non crit build on the dex dakras, or the dual kamas. I haven't even touched my dual ichors or prisma cleavers because it's the same beserker build EVERYONE uses. Maiming Strike straight up destroyed any other non crit build I used.

Difference between DSS and Dual Kama or Dual Ichor? A lot. Damage, speed, type of damage, range of attacks. DSS has way more issues than just 'not a crit weapon'. I wouldn't mind if it wasn't a crit weapon, it's just 'not even POSSIBLE to make it a decent crit weapon'. And the reason people focus on it is; it's easy to make a crit weapon considering the mods we have been given. So when something fails to even do THAT in a decent manner, then of course we're gonna be disappointed.

Charge attacks are a joke (some weapons excluded of course), but that's not the fault of critical builds; Charge Attacks can crit as well, and be downright devastating when used right. But, tell me, do we even have ONE charge mod? Anything? A mod that speeds up or enhances charge attacks? Or is it, maybe, that ALL builds, status and critical and pure damage are all 'charge attack' builds, considering there just is NO charge attack build? Those are problems of melee in general, NOT Maiming Strike. Fix the rest of melee, Maiming strike won't even be used half as much. Heck, I only have it on one or two weapons (my Orthos P with maxed out reach and my Cerata).

The fact that you don't use a weapon or three because you believe they have to have a mod you don't have/don't want to use, isn't reason for changing the mod itself.

In the end, Maiming Strike isn't even that OP or 'indispensable'. Most builds I know go Blood Rush + Body Count. 'Cause if you think having +90% flat crit chance is 'broken', you haven't seen my perma-red-critting Scindo P. And there's a very good reason I almost never use that weapon.

In short; we have loads more issues in melee than Maiming Strike. It's one of the good, even excellent mods, but hadly an absolute necessity.

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On 6/11/2016 at 8:51 AM, Lyravain said:

Difference between DSS and Dual Kama or Dual Ichor? A lot. Damage, speed, type of damage, range of attacks. DSS has way more issues than just 'not a crit weapon'. I wouldn't mind if it wasn't a crit weapon, it's just 'not even POSSIBLE to make it a decent crit weapon'. And the reason people focus on it is; it's easy to make a crit weapon considering the mods we have been given. So when something fails to even do THAT in a decent manner, then of course we're gonna be disappointed.

Charge attacks are a joke (some weapons excluded of course), but that's not the fault of critical builds; Charge Attacks can crit as well, and be downright devastating when used right. But, tell me, do we even have ONE charge mod? Anything? A mod that speeds up or enhances charge attacks? Or is it, maybe, that ALL builds, status and critical and pure damage are all 'charge attack' builds, considering there just is NO charge attack build? Those are problems of melee in general, NOT Maiming Strike. Fix the rest of melee, Maiming strike won't even be used half as much. Heck, I only have it on one or two weapons (my Orthos P with maxed out reach and my Cerata).

The fact that you don't use a weapon or three because you believe they have to have a mod you don't have/don't want to use, isn't reason for changing the mod itself.

In the end, Maiming Strike isn't even that OP or 'indispensable'. Most builds I know go Blood Rush + Body Count. 'Cause if you think having +90% flat crit chance is 'broken', you haven't seen my perma-red-critting Scindo P. And there's a very good reason I almost never use that weapon.

In short; we have loads more issues in melee than Maiming Strike. It's one of the good, even excellent mods, but hadly an absolute necessity.

1. Dark sword can crit just fine, just put a maiming strike and the heavy sword stance. Boom 100% crit rate on all slide. now just slide three times to get beserker going. Body Count and Blood rush are OP, but it takes a while to build the stacks up

2. Charge attacks used to be a thing before mellee 2.0

3. I don't use a weapon because it's so boring. What's the difference between mellee weapons of one category to another. One is just more beserker viable and some are less. I want weapons to have different builds, but Maiming strike is so good, that there's really no point.

4. As I said in 1 Blood Rush takes a while to build combos for, but you lose all mellee weapons. Mellee was a very troubled child to begin with when it comes to endless scaling, so I'm waiting until DE fixes that. Scindo is boring and it's for those guys wanting to do endless scaling. :P 

5. Maiming strike is an issue, it's just that it's a limited time mod. not many people have, once you go maiming you can't go back. They'll learn how to execute the slide perfectly and habitually.

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5 hours ago, Heidrek said:

1. Dark sword can crit just fine, just put a maiming strike and the heavy sword stance. Boom 100% crit rate on all slide. now just slide three times to get beserker going. Body Count and Blood rush are OP, but it takes a while to build the stacks up

2. Charge attacks used to be a thing before mellee 2.0

3. I don't use a weapon because it's so boring. What's the difference between mellee weapons of one category to another. One is just more beserker viable and some are less. I want weapons to have different builds, but Maiming strike is so good, that there's really no point.

4. As I said in 1 Blood Rush takes a while to build combos for, but you lose all mellee weapons. Mellee was a very troubled child to begin with when it comes to endless scaling, so I'm waiting until DE fixes that. Scindo is boring and it's for those guys wanting to do endless scaling. :P 

5. Maiming strike is an issue, it's just that it's a limited time mod. not many people have, once you go maiming you can't go back. They'll learn how to execute the slide perfectly and habitually.

1. Maiming strike requires you to keep your momentum moving and keep that crouch button pressed, not to mention with many weapons, the movement will make you miss some enemies unless you also have Primed Reach. Frankly, it's limited. In other words; excellent, but not broken.

2. Charge attacks are not a thing now. Try to keep the time-frame in mind. What once worked doesn't any more.

3. Good on you. I don't use certain weapons too much either. I'd rather go Kogake than Scindo P.

4. In case you haven't noticed; blood rush stacks even when NOT using your melee only. It lasts for a long while too (15 secs with body count). Depending on weapon selection, you could be running into melee while firing off and using melee to clear survivors before or while reloading. You definitely do not lose access to your, for example, Sancti Tigris or Tonkor -you just lose access to melee combo abilities and the damage multiplier, but NOT the critical chance.

5. Maiming strike is a time limited mod. So have been TONS of other mods (Primed Continuity and Primed Flow, Tempo Royale for a LOOOOONG while, remember when they cost 1k plat to get, some of them? Or should I bring up Aviator which STILL isn't available - I don't see people complaining about it). Any kind of mod that requires you to play in a specific way will become habitual. For example, I use my Redeemer's charge attack when soloing some exterms because it kills large groups of tough enemies. Guess what I try to do when using my Nikana and wondering why the enemy across me isn't dead yet. Similarly, have you used the Glaive/Cerata? I will assume you have and ask you; have you tried switching the setup after you got comfortable with what you have now (thrown with bounces to melee, for example)? It's something that happens with ALL builds and ALL weapons.

Maiming Strike is an awesome mod. I like it. I use it. It needs no rework. What I do agree with you on needing is more ways to get it. Everything else is fine.

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6 hours ago, Lyravain said:

1. Maiming strike requires you to keep your momentum moving and keep that crouch button pressed, not to mention with many weapons, the movement will make you miss some enemies unless you also have Primed Reach. Frankly, it's limited. In other words; excellent, but not broken.

2. Charge attacks are not a thing now. Try to keep the time-frame in mind. What once worked doesn't any more.

3. Good on you. I don't use certain weapons too much either. I'd rather go Kogake than Scindo P.

4. In case you haven't noticed; blood rush stacks even when NOT using your melee only. It lasts for a long while too (15 secs with body count). Depending on weapon selection, you could be running into melee while firing off and using melee to clear survivors before or while reloading. You definitely do not lose access to your, for example, Sancti Tigris or Tonkor -you just lose access to melee combo abilities and the damage multiplier, but NOT the critical chance.

5. Maiming strike is a time limited mod. So have been TONS of other mods (Primed Continuity and Primed Flow, Tempo Royale for a LOOOOONG while, remember when they cost 1k plat to get, some of them? Or should I bring up Aviator which STILL isn't available - I don't see people complaining about it). Any kind of mod that requires you to play in a specific way will become habitual. For example, I use my Redeemer's charge attack when soloing some exterms because it kills large groups of tough enemies. Guess what I try to do when using my Nikana and wondering why the enemy across me isn't dead yet. Similarly, have you used the Glaive/Cerata? I will assume you have and ask you; have you tried switching the setup after you got comfortable with what you have now (thrown with bounces to melee, for example)? It's something that happens with ALL builds and ALL weapons.

Maiming Strike is an awesome mod. I like it. I use it. It needs no rework. What I do agree with you on needing is more ways to get it. Everything else is fine.

1. I mean momentum isn't hard to learn once you learn it. It's a learned skill that scales. All AI is the same at high end levels, its just that they're damage sponges that can one hit KO you. So damage for mellee is essential in high levels.

2 and 3. I want charge attacks, status builds, and even channeling builds to be a thing, so we can build other weapons to feel differently from each other, unlike say dual kama is more beserker viable than dex dakra. Once you play one mellee weapon from one category, you pretty much played them all. It's just some are more beserker viable and faster. Also yes kogake is fun because it's an unknown middle class weapon that can breakdance. 

4. Well Mellee needs something in endless scaling. There is so little risk and reward involved when you run up to heavies and crewman above level 100 that mellee falls off without the blood rush stacks. Rockets and butchers are going to bombard you without that extra damage. The thing is you need to focus on building it. So blood rush is for those hardcore mellee players, or someone who has can time when the mellee combo meter resets. 

5. Maiming Strike just killed any hope for build diversity. My clan mates and friends kind of laugh about status, and charge builds. The lesion and the dark split swords became instant beserker builds with maiming instead of status weapons. I for one agree with them, glaive and redeemer may be exceptions, but they may get you killed due to the initial swing in the beginning of the attack. Redeemer also has falloff, plus I don't really see people using redeemer properly. They bug the weapon out causing it to fire in automatic, it's a lot of damage it's pretty much a blue cloud bullet train. As fr Aviator, it's redundant, floating in the air pretty much reduces the enemies chances of killing you, so the damage reduction is kinda useless. Primed continuity, flow and tempo royal don't ruin build diversity, they just allow greater build capabilities.

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4 hours ago, Heidrek said:

1. I mean momentum isn't hard to learn once you learn it. It's a learned skill that scales. All AI is the same at high end levels, its just that they're damage sponges that can one hit KO you. So damage for mellee is essential in high levels.

2 and 3. I want charge attacks, status builds, and even channeling builds to be a thing, so we can build other weapons to feel differently from each other, unlike say dual kama is more beserker viable than dex dakra. Once you play one mellee weapon from one category, you pretty much played them all. It's just some are more beserker viable and faster. Also yes kogake is fun because it's an unknown middle class weapon that can breakdance. 

4. Well Mellee needs something in endless scaling. There is so little risk and reward involved when you run up to heavies and crewman above level 100 that mellee falls off without the blood rush stacks. Rockets and butchers are going to bombard you without that extra damage. The thing is you need to focus on building it. So blood rush is for those hardcore mellee players, or someone who has can time when the mellee combo meter resets. 

5. Maiming Strike just killed any hope for build diversity. My clan mates and friends kind of laugh about status, and charge builds. The lesion and the dark split swords became instant beserker builds with maiming instead of status weapons. I for one agree with them, glaive and redeemer may be exceptions, but they may get you killed due to the initial swing in the beginning of the attack. Redeemer also has falloff, plus I don't really see people using redeemer properly. They bug the weapon out causing it to fire in automatic, it's a lot of damage it's pretty much a blue cloud bullet train. As fr Aviator, it's redundant, floating in the air pretty much reduces the enemies chances of killing you, so the damage reduction is kinda useless. Primed continuity, flow and tempo royal don't ruin build diversity, they just allow greater build capabilities.

1. In my opinion, once you learn anything, it's not hard to do. I had issues with the Penta. Took it to a dozen fights or two, eventually I stopped having issues with it.

2 and 3. You're not alone in that. I would like DE to make status, charge and channeling builds better. Thing is; I want DE to IMPROVE charge and channel and status. Not nerf critical. Though, truth be told, some weapons (i.e. Ninkondi) are excellent for status. They are however the exception and based heavily upon the weapon itself, rather than the viability of status mods.

4. So, pretty much the problem you're pointing out, isn't how crits are broken, but how our enemy scaling is so broken that we don't have a realistic solution otherwise. So how would reworking Maiming Strike to not be as beneficial help? Level 100 Bombards will still 1-shot you, you just won't have a melee mod that helps you even out the scales a little bit -and even then, you're still bringing up Blood Rush and Body Count, not Maiming Strike. Melee needs something in everything. Or the enemy scaling needs to chill the heck out and stop being so broken.

5. Sure there is build diversity. For me, after a certain amount of critical chance, I just don't feel the need to add any more. And Blood Rush gets me there pretty fast. I'd rather add an extra elemental damage or critical damage mod than more critical. In fact, I'd rather just add some Primed Fury once I get it. I reserve Maiming Strike for those weapons with so low base crit chance that Blood Rush wouldn't be as much help. And I didn't bring up those mods to discuss their redundancy or how they enhance builds; but rather how hard it was to find them.

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16 hours ago, Lyravain said:

1. In my opinion, once you learn anything, it's not hard to do. I had issues with the Penta. Took it to a dozen fights or two, eventually I stopped having issues with it.

2 and 3. You're not alone in that. I would like DE to make status, charge and channeling builds better. Thing is; I want DE to IMPROVE charge and channel and status. Not nerf critical. Though, truth be told, some weapons (i.e. Ninkondi) are excellent for status. They are however the exception and based heavily upon the weapon itself, rather than the viability of status mods.

4. So, pretty much the problem you're pointing out, isn't how crits are broken, but how our enemy scaling is so broken that we don't have a realistic solution otherwise. So how would reworking Maiming Strike to not be as beneficial help? Level 100 Bombards will still 1-shot you, you just won't have a melee mod that helps you even out the scales a little bit -and even then, you're still bringing up Blood Rush and Body Count, not Maiming Strike. Melee needs something in everything. Or the enemy scaling needs to chill the heck out and stop being so broken.

5. Sure there is build diversity. For me, after a certain amount of critical chance, I just don't feel the need to add any more. And Blood Rush gets me there pretty fast. I'd rather add an extra elemental damage or critical damage mod than more critical. In fact, I'd rather just add some Primed Fury once I get it. I reserve Maiming Strike for those weapons with so low base crit chance that Blood Rush wouldn't be as much help. And I didn't bring up those mods to discuss their redundancy or how they enhance builds; but rather how hard it was to find them.

1. obvious agreement 
2 and 3. I made another post and I would like to see other people try to contribute ideas, because as it seems to me, DE isn't really going to do much.
4 and 5. I don't want to nerf bloodrush for now otherwise mellee players would have no incentive to go headfirst into a level 100+ heavies, a crowds, or an ice nullie an escort of of eximus ancients, bomabards, heavy gunners, butchers and crewman. The mod makes it possible for those players to kill the enemy before taking to much damage, and dying. Maiming strike however the activation agreement is so specific it's obvious to see that people want to use it for it's beserker benefit for those who don't don't want to stack blood rush. It does also take a while to get beserker stacks back if you lose the crit stacks from your combos. If someone wants to mellee they got to speed through the animations at level 100+ enemies, otherwise you're as good as dead. So beserker has it's survivablitiy uses. Blood rush is still great yes however putting it up to rank 10 is a bit much in my eyes, but our enemy scaling is broken so I'll hold of on that.
 

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Well, I'm glad we agree, finally.

I am curious as to how Berserk will fare now that we'll  have access to Primed Fury -well, some of us, and I'm still 7 days away. I don't expect game-breaking events, but it should even out with Berserker a bit. Not when Berserker is fully-charged, but it'll be balanced comparing the constant 50% to the 0-to-75% boost.

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