Overpowered players

[(XBOX)Beck117]

On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 0:31 PM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 

Inaros has high armor which combined with it's high health translates to very high EHP.

Mesa can use shatter shield for 95%DR...

 

 

 

 

Sigh...

I use Inaros all the time because DE made a viable solo frame that doesn't have to rely on invis or CC, and guess what? He's one of the most fun frames to use because there is still lots of risk and disadvantages to him and in high level he can be put down very quickly if your not careful. I'd dare to say hes one of the most balanced frames in the game and doesn't need any changes.

I'm fairly certain Shatter Shield doesn't work against enemies that are using melee attacks.

[blackheartstar_pc]

4 hours ago, (PS4)JaviOnTheRocks said:

Enemy threat scales in basically three ways: ehp, damage and mechanics explicitly designed to counter players' OP on higher levels.

We could have more advanced AI and enemy tactics, but what's the point if their agency can be single handedly negated and units can be consistently nuked over a wide area regardless of how they behave? So scaling gets based on sheer ehp and damage instead, along with units that dispel, negate or leech our power: Nullifiers, Bursas, Eximus and Scrambus.

When you extrapolate those mechanics to higher levels it becomes apparent that it's a race for removing units that try to cheese you (depriving you of your powers and damage) so you can cheese the rest of them

 

I do not consider it cheese. Those are high priority targets. Half of which are only a problem if you are trying to use your powers. Just because they can remove your powers does not make them badly designed cheese. There are a host of games where your ingame avatar encounters enemies or entire sections of a map/game where your magic/super powers are disabled. It would be very odd if Warframe did not have these kind of enemies.

Bursas specifically to me are a example of how people that claim they want enemies with more mechanics and or challenge do not really want those things. So much hate on the forums for these guys. To a lesser degree with Nulifiers.

On the ehp part of your post I guess having played games my entire life enemies hp going up as you progress doesn't bother me. Just seems natural, and in Warframe isn't a problem until you do far into endless.

Edited June 18, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

20 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

" This kill first of be killed was not intended design "

So tell me, what is the intended design?

What I said was "binary state" and it means enemies either tickle you with their weapons or murder you. Same goes for player damage. So you wander why this is not intended design? Because this isn't COD. We have a health and shield bar for a reason. If every shot was meant to kill we wouldn't have them as well as health mods and DR abilities. Just like players, enemies also have a health bar, but it's as if it didn't exist since they die in a single shot. Anyway, the "intended design" was to have players that can take down enemies with a few shots and lot more for heavies. That's why we have single target nukes and damage amplifying abilities. Enemies would present a real threat and gradually wear player down through sheer numbers and player mistakes, forcing us to collect health orbs or use other healing sources.

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Lets break this down:

• Devour is single-target, and time-consuming. At a high-enough level, you will lose more health in the gap between casts then you get from this ability. Need I mention how slow it is to deplete armored enemy health as well?

 Ah, I see. Your problem is that Inaros can't solo high level content because he doesn't have "true" invulnerability? That just goes to show how used to cheese you have become.

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• Life-strike makes melee more viable on Inaros. Going by your methodology people will be indifferent with which frames to select, simply because they do not differ except in appearance.

What are you even talking about?

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• Any sign of OP stems from his interaction with other content. Perhaps removing life-strike, or lowering its capabilities? Or you could just rework Inaros if you deem it so. The true pity is why you are discussing weapon changes when clearly we still have enemy-rework and frame-reworks to cover before then.

Most OP frames are so OP BECAUSE they interact with other content. Trinity is a force multiplier when in a team, but alone she's just a good sustainable tank with a little CC.

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Don't get me wrong, but I recall you asking for a challenge. Explain how you propose to do this without creating bullet sponges.

So if an enemy takes more than 1 shot to kill they're a bullet sponge? I'm sorry, but it's pointless to discuss this with you as long as you're thinking this way.

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• Statistical balance is seriously a distorted way to perceive Warframe. IF our defensive multipliers were higher, every frame would be a tank, OP frames would be even more OP. IF weapon damage multipliers scaled the same as defense, every enemy would turn into a bullet sponge. IF you want to tone it down slightly, I won't argue that. Still don't see why you plan on doing so at a critical time such as this... [Refer to previous bold statement].

Statistical balance is distorted? It's not IF, enemy weapon damage and health scale with almost the same formula. Health even scales faster and there's also armor.  A level 80 bombard has 5k armor and almost 500k EHP.

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• If you want to discuss progression at lower-levels, there are much more viable alternatives. Like MR locking weapons. Seriously, don't judge a game like Warframe solely by its statistical inconsistencies. Why do we have testing? To see how statistical data turns out in the actual game.

Like boltor prime being locked at MR2? What a joke. I played with a MR2 yesterday and he didn't even have serration.

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This is literally speaking for itself...Why should the Warframe community let itself be guided by a select few individuals who only look to their own ideals and nothing else?

Because my ideal would make the game more sustainable and skill oriented?

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Lets summarize:

• You dislike the CC. That, I can understand. I'll agree with the EV rework and the Efficiency mods. However, I won't agree with the restores. That is player resources and basically a support item. Cool-downs are reserved for the Liset drops, though I presume they are pretty much useless. If you actually implement this, there will be no reason to say, utilize shield restores with cool-down, since you might as well wait for the regeneration [Lets say, 1 restore per minute. Each restore is 100 shields. Which is nothing if you are getting shot at. If you aren't getting shot, the regeneration works much quicker.]

You understand nothing. I don't hate CC. What I do hate is CC trivializing the content by being able to spam them throughout the entire game. By their nature CC tries to render enemy helpless and players being able to do that at will without limit trivializes the game. Restores are like unlimited potions. They cost resources, but they really aren't that expensive and they "restore" the entire team.

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• My issue, which you never seem to comment about, is the timing in which you bring this up. How many player-reworks have we gotten? Quite a lot. How many enemy-reworks have we gotten? Hardly any, and no substantial changes. Part of the community struggles with Bursas, Nullifiers, Eximus, Juggernauts etc. You are suggesting we keep lowering our own capabilities and let these poor souls struggle even more? What I suggest, is to wait for the enemy-rework to come out. You, as a 2-year player, haven't complained / commented a single time amidst all of the OP across that span. That's patience right there. What's the harm in waiting it out a bit longer?

It's like you keep ignoring the things I write if it doesn't serve your narrative. Part of the reason for my suggestions was as originally stated, so we could get rid of nulifiers and eximuses, bursas, etc that limit player agency. You can't fix enemies until you fix the player. What would you change anyway? Remove enemy cheese? reduce their scaling? Improve their AI? How would any of it matter if the player side remained unchanged?

Edited June 18, 2016 by Fuzzy-Bunny

[(XBOX)Beck117]

59 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 

 Ah, I see. Your problem is that Inaros can't solo high level content because he doesn't have "true" invulnerability? That just goes to show how used to cheese you have become.

I think they meant when you reel enemies in and the the animation when you stop devouring enemies, leave you open to attacks, which in high end content, can be potentially fatal. 

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

57 minutes ago, (XB1)Beck117 said:

I think they meant when you reel enemies in and the the animation when you stop devouring enemies, leave you open to attacks, which in high end content, can be potentially fatal. 

I am aware. Why would you even use devour when you can restore health much quicker with life strike and without the vulnerability? If you're only after the shadow just get the enemy low and quickly devour.

[TriggerHappyWhiteGuy]

Well you do have a lot of good points but I think the problem is mob scaling needs to happen first. Everyone plays endless missions and fighting level 100+ mobs where they can instantly kill you if you don't use a utility frame to stun lock them. <---This is the primary cause of why people feel they need to cheese. How often to people cheese on non endless missions? In my experience on non-endless missions people just bring whatever they want.

After DE finds out how strong they want the mobs to then they can fix the players utility and damage. How can we be overpowered when its hard to kill level 200+ mobs? Its apart of the game that they can even go that high, if anything we need more ways to survive then getting down in one shot.

As for Serration, I feel it should stay in the game they way it is. It is a resource sink but if you go back and replay from the beginning of the game, adding level upon level on that serration feels like reasonable progress of slowly increasing your damage and getting stronger. I think serration should change a bit but something like adding it to a separate slot like Aura/Stances. This would still give people the ability to slowly add and make their progress to becoming stronger. I do not like their current idea of a weapon increase stats when it levels up and feel this would be a better option.

I agree with you on the multishot, its too much power and it cost absolutely nothing. It should consume extra ammo or be changed to a Rank 10 Rare mod with same stats.

As far as elemental mods go, people use a lot to keep increase their damage to dramatically reduce player damage for the sake of balance they should only allow 1 elemental and 1 physical damage mod on at a time.  With most of those slots freed up then I completely agree with you on the index mods and reworking crits. Less damage mods+crit mods ---> More utility/skill mods(currently not very useful).

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

49 minutes ago, TriggerHappyWhiteGuy said:

Well you do have a lot of good points but I think the problem is mob scaling needs to happen first. Everyone plays endless missions and fighting level 100+ mobs where they can instantly kill you if you don't use a utility frame to stun lock them. <---This is the primary cause of why people feel they need to cheese. How often to people cheese on non endless missions? In my experience on non-endless missions people just bring whatever they want.

What if players were not supposed to come so far into an endless that they'd be oneshot? How far do you believe players would come without ability spam? Imagine that there was no fleeting expertise and restores. There could still be trinity, but what if there wasn't? How long could players keep going?

The way I see it, the only reason players ever come to a point of getting oneshot is because they relied on CC spam and OP weapons to kill enemies before they could retaliate and basically cheesed to a point where they finally get overwhelmed by scaling and enemy cheese and then they come complaining about enemy scaling.

We are not supposed to fight and kill level 200 enemies. They are enemies boosted by artificial difficulty to force us out. If you're looking for the enemy level that would be appropriate just look at warframe's damaging abilities. Warframe ults are supposed to clear a room or at least come close. So when they do little more than tickle our enemies you know you're in way over your head.

[TriggerHappyWhiteGuy]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

What if players were not supposed to come so far into an endless that they'd be oneshot? How far do you believe players would come without ability spam? Imagine that there was no fleeting expertise and restores. There could still be trinity, but what if there wasn't? How long could players keep going?

The way I see it, the only reason players ever come to a point of getting oneshot is because they relied on CC spam and OP weapons to kill enemies before they could retaliate and basically cheesed to a point where they finally get overwhelmed by scaling and enemy cheese and then they come complaining about enemy scaling.

We are not supposed to fight and kill level 200 enemies. They are enemies boosted by artificial difficulty to force us out. If you're looking for the enemy level that would be appropriate just look at warframe's damaging abilities. Warframe ults are supposed to clear a room or at least come close. So when they do little more than tickle our enemies you know you're in way over your head.

If players were not supposed to go that far in endless missions that they would get oneshotted then DE needs to change Endless mode to cap the mobs level or damage so we don't get one shotted. Being endless missions or extreme scaling or even a bit of both being the problem that needs to get fixed first. DE should have an idea of how strong they want to have the mobs be and the max level of strength the player is capable of.

People do rely on CC spam and the strongest weapons to get that far because these are the tools DE has provided us with.

If we are not supposed to fight and kill level 200 mobs then DE should change it so that we never fight them. I am still waiting for more of a weapon balance patch, mob balance patch, and mod balance patch. The lack of information of "How strong are Mobs supposed to be" and "How strong the Player is suppose to be" is one of the biggest problems. As soon as they can answer these questions then we will really know what is considered overpowered. Until then its all just speculation.

[(XBOX)Beck117]

3 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I am aware. Why would you even use devour when you can restore health much quicker with life strike and without the vulnerability? If you're only after the shadow just get the enemy low and quickly devour.

I rarely use life strike and at high level, devour is a full heal depending on where its used.

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

3 hours ago, TriggerHappyWhiteGuy said:

If players were not supposed to go that far in endless missions that they would get oneshotted then DE needs to change Endless mode to cap the mobs level or damage so we don't get one shotted. Being endless missions or extreme scaling or even a bit of both being the problem that needs to get fixed first. DE should have an idea of how strong they want to have the mobs be and the max level of strength the player is capable of.

People do rely on CC spam and the strongest weapons to get that far because these are the tools DE has provided us with.

If we are not supposed to fight and kill level 200 mobs then DE should change it so that we never fight them. I am still waiting for more of a weapon balance patch, mob balance patch, and mod balance patch. The lack of information of "How strong are Mobs supposed to be" and "How strong the Player is suppose to be" is one of the biggest problems. As soon as they can answer these questions then we will really know what is considered overpowered. Until then its all just speculation.

Why do you expect DE to cap ENDLESS missions? The whole point of endless missions is that they scale until you can no longer continue. If they really capped the mobs, they would have to dilute the rewards even further.

DE were the ones that have been ruining their own balance. They've created this situation and they have given us all the tools to do it. They've supposedly regret giving serration such a high damage boost so what do they do? Release primed damage mods. They don't approve of spamming ults? They've given us all the tools to brake the energy system. Giving players more and more power through gear is not sustainable forever. I guess it's inevitable to end up this way eventually, I just don't like the way DE is accelerating the whole thing as if rushing towards their own demise. They say damage 3.0 will fix things, but do you honestly believe DE has the balls to nerf super expensive primed damage mods? Just imagine the outcry.

If tenno are supposed to be overpowered this way, where will we be challenged? What would those enemies look like? Bullet sponges with insane EHP, damage and CC resistance? Or maybe enemies that are invulnerable everywhere but certain spots? New enemies with cheese mechanics? Would we still feel "powerful" with enemies like these?

Edited June 18, 2016 by Fuzzy-Bunny

[TriggerHappyWhiteGuy]

2 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Why do you expect DE to cap ENDLESS missions? The whole point of endless missions is that they scale until you can no longer continue. If they really capped the mobs, they would have to dilute the rewards even further.

DE were the ones that have been ruining their own balance. They've created this situation and they have given us all the tools to do it. They've supposedly regret giving serration such a high damage boost so what do they do? Release primed damage mods. They don't approve of spamming ults? They've given us all the tools to brake the energy system. Giving players more and more power through gear is not sustainable forever. I guess it's inevitable to end up this way eventually, I just don't like the way DE is accelerating the whole thing as if rushing towards their own demise. They say damage 3.0 will fix things, but do you honestly believe DE has the balls to nerf super expensive primed damage mods? Just imagine the outcry.

If tenno are supposed to be overpowered this way, where will we be challenged? What would those enemies look like? Bullet sponges with insane EHP, damage and CC resistance? Or maybe enemies that are invulnerable everywhere but certain spots? New enemies with cheese mechanics? Would we still feel "powerful" with enemies like these?

I expect DE to find out where they want the mob position of power to be and the player position of power to be. I was merely suggesting that if they want to keep endless missions truly endless then eventually they should cap them out at some point. Or the could just as easily change endless missions to a non-endless mission. For example Endless survival but maybe they want to say mission can be completed any time after 5min but has a limit of 2 hours. Then scale mobs and player assets so you can see how far you can get. I would expect getting to that full 2 hours would be hard and mostly for the Veterans who mini-max.

DE has ruined their balance some of its the players fault for always requesting more power and if its not a top tier weapon then its automatically Mastery Fodder. Also when the player gets too strong then they release or buff up mobs. With the weapons, mods and ult/utility skill spamming that we currently have it is possible to stay in the void basically forever and we don't even need proper level scaling to make that happen in its current form.

My point I am trying to get across is that its hard to call something overpowered if we don't have a clear context of how far DE wants us go in terms of player vs mob damage. I never heard them say(I watch the dev steams) that we should not be fighting 200-900 level mobs. Maybe that's why they give us so my CC, so the point of endless mission is the fact you can survive forever and go as long as you want.

[Btabc]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Beck117 said:

I rarely use life strike and at high level, devour is a full heal depending on where its used.

I agree!  You can sit there and "devour" an enemy and not have to worry about health taking a hit until the animation (or enemy) has stopped.  It's a plus that you get a shadow, but that only lasts a short amount of time.  Inaros is now my favorite frame!  It's tough that he doesn't have shields, but like you said, it's fun being able to go out there and solo.  That's how I prefer to fight anyways, except for harder missions/sorties.

[(PSN)Doctor-Blitz-]

The thing is OP can do mostly everything he mentioned. He is not forced to use the mods or powers of the Warframes but he tries to force me in his way of play-style.

I love to be powered!! I hate nerfs and the latest nerfs killed Volt, Mag, Excalibur and Trin literally for me. I played more than 1000h and spent a big amount of money by buying every Prime Package...

Actually I decided to stop to spend money because I invested so much time and money and DE destroyed some of this.

So stop these nerfs, please. If you don't like the general way WF works as a game with powered space ninjas change the game.

[(XBOX)Ahkyoz]

Players will always find a way to be op

[Chipputer]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)Doctor-Blitz- said:

the latest nerfs killed Volt, Mag, Excalibur and Trin literally for me

I'm sorry that you don't appreciate balance. Perhaps you'd like to play Ash and spam bladestorm?

[Chipputer]

On 6/17/2016 at 5:40 PM, blackheartstar_pc said:

Watched some videos like this and was thinking wtf that's not how it works. Where I dislike the Mag change to Polarize I agree with this statement.

Not all press 4 to win guys are short term playing free riders. I would concede if you pressed that most are.

I'm really not of the belief that every single press 4 to win player is the same way, nor do I believe that every non is the opposite of them. I was using it more as a way to get my point across.

[Yargami]

On 6/15/2016 at 3:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The solution would be to fix the modding system so that it actually serves the player play style and is actually skill indexed and not merely flat damage booster.

• Mods like seration need to go. They add nothing to the game other than being resource sinks.
• Multishot mods also need to use extra ammo. There is no reason not to equip them now and they basically cheat the ingame ammo system.
• Elemental damage mods should convert existing damage to their element. Something like converting 40% of stock damage to their element while adding 20% bonus (max rank). This would also have the side effect of making the physical damage type mods viable.
• Add skill indexed mods. These mods would replace mods like serration. They would work by awarding advanced use of game mechanics and force players to actually improve their skills instead of just bullet hosing enemies until they die.
• Rework crits. What are crits? Why would there be a % chance of doing more damage? Aren't crits supposed to be extra damage from hitting enemy vitals? Crits would be fine in MMO's with no first person aim, but warframe has that as well as body part damage multipliers. In the end crits serve no purpose other than another flat layer of damage and rewarding headshots.

 

So how could DE fix the energy system?

• Nerf efficiency mods. Reducing the cost of skills to 1/4 is the biggest reason why skills are so spammable. What's worse is that this comes with little to no drawbacks which can be countered by duration mods. Efficiency mods are currently the norm since they basically remove the limit on casting. I suggest giving streamline and fleeting expertise more drawbacks and let them do exactly as their names imply. Force the player to decide between a weaker (streamlined) spammable build or more powerful builds.
• Nerf energy vampire. Energy vampire was OP before but with the recent rework of awarding the remaining energy on kill it has become broken. EV should be reverted back to it's original form.
• Rework Trinity. Not only does trinity outperform any other support frame in healing and damage resistance, she can also serve as an infinite energy generator at the same time. And as if that wasn't enough she can also face tank pretty much anything.
• Limit the restores. Limit restores on each revive so the players can't just spam them or give them a cooldown

 

- Removing flat damage mods: I can see the argument for this. However, I would point out that with the current health/armor scaling means the damage mods are completely necessary to complete high-end missions. If your weapon never deals more than its base damage then the difference between a level 10 enemy and a level 100 enemy would have to much much less. Personally, I would prefer something like just lowering the bonus damage (bring the normal damage mods down to +50% and primed to +75%, or something similar to that) and then re-balancing the enemy scaling to be less extreme. That way the damage mods would help, but replacing them with utility mods would be just as viable. Also, something that's always bugged me, make the damage mods for each weapon category give the same bonus. Really the only way I could see completely removing the damage mods would be if enemy level scaling was completely reworked from scratch. Making the weapons scale with rank could work, but unless the damage scaling is much higher than what Warframes get you would still need to redo the enemy level scaling (not just how fast they increase in level, but also how much difference there is between levels).
- Multishot using up ammo: I really *really* hate this idea and I wish it would stop coming back. It was mentioned in a Devstream, but a couple devstreams later it was said that this was a random idea (one of many) and isn't necessarily even going to be implemented at all (even if 60% of the fans want it, are you really wanting to tick off 40% of your loyal fans? I'm pretty sure I'm being rather generous with those numbers too). I can see wanting a disadvantage to multishot, but I'd much prefer something like it lowers your accuracy. Or even make it lower your base damage. This would make it focus more on the utility of procs/covering the battlefield with bullets rather than pure damage (which, if I'm interpreting your post correctly, is one of your concerns).
- Skill focused mods would be very welcome. I'm never going to claim to be the most skilled player ever, but having more mods that reward me for thinking while playing would make me happy.
- Removing crits: I'm not a huge fan of crit% in most games (unless it's a special property of a specific weapon or attack, like the old meteor spell). I can see having some damage variance (like this weapon will deal 95-105% of the listed damage each shot), but having RNG be major decider on whether or not my weapon is useful really annoys me. I'd rather see more standardized damage and slightly more damage reward for weakpoint hits (heads on most enemies). This could be balanced by slightly lowering the limb damage (again, more power to thinking during combat rather than just spray and pray). The main problem with that I can see is that it would hurt rapid fire guns such as the Soma since the chances of hitting a limb are greater than the chances of hitting a head (unless you're very close to the enemy). But I figure with something like this all the weapons would have to be rebalanced anyways.

Energy problems:

- Nerfing efficiency: Not a huge fan of this one. I don't usually do much ability spamming, but I like to have my loadouts so that I use up as little energy as possible with my abilities. Perhaps giving a debuff that raises the cost of that tech (not the other 3) right after you use it? It could start at 50% and fall off over 10 seconds (just example numbers, in-depth balancing would be required).
- Nerf EV/rework Trinity: I think Trinity needs a re-work mainly just to Well of Life and Energy Vampire. I like Link (OK, I'd like a slight buff to the damage reduction) and I much prefer the flat damage reduction rate for Blessing rather than working off missing HP. I think my main problem with Well of Life is that it does absolutely nothing if your allies don't attack the enemy. I like healing classes where you need to be aware of the entire battlefield, but most of those don't require that your allies also be aware of the entire battlefield. This could be alleviated with voice-chat, but most of the time that doesn't happen (similar problem with Limbo's teamplay). What I'd like for Well of Life is something that you place on the ground and does AoE healing to any allies standing in it. That way you can slap it on the ground where an ally is and they get healing. They'd still have to stay in the area, but they wouldn't have to keep track of who the Trinity is targeting, which would allow them to focus on whatever enemies are directly a threat. I could go on (I have a giant spreadsheet about Warframe ability changes I'd like to see), but this post is getting to big already. (TL;DR Trinity definitely needs at least Well of Life and Energy Vampire reworked)
- Limiting restores: I would be fine with some limiting, but not extremely long cooldowns (such as the ten minute cooldown on the landing craft abilities). But something so that you can't place more than one of the same type of restore at the same time (and maybe 15-30 seconds afterwards)? That I'd be fine with.

Elemental mods: I would be fine with them converting a % of damage to that element. What I'd really like is for them to focus a bit more on proc % rather than adding pure damage. Stacking elemental mods would increase how much of the damage is converted. If you manage to stack the mods so that they convert more that 100% it would make the weapon deal bonus damage (convert 110% damage would increase the total damage by 10%) but only deal elemental damage. The main problem I can see is that it might get a little complicated with what % of the elemental damage is taken up by what element if you have more than two element types. My thought would instead of making elemental mods convert a % of the damage to the matching element (lightning mod converts 20% of damage to *lightning* damage) make then instead convert damage to generic elemental damage and then split that damage evenly between each element (example: 50% conversion rate with viral and fire damage would come out with fire damage equal to 25% of the base weapon damage and viral damage equal to 25% of the base weapon damage).

TL;DR if I were in charge of the game directly I would probably change how some stuff worked. Some of this would agree with your post, some would not. Actually, upon thinking about it, I'd say I was going to change stuff and then get completely overwhelmed because I have a tendency to start a bunch of things at once and thus rarely complete any of them. Anytime I see someone mention removing the damage mods I cringe because it isn't a problem that can be fixed just by simply ripping out the mods. Almost everything about the game would have to be massively reworked, rebalanced, or even scrapped entirely. People complain about band-aid fixes, but just deleting the mandatory mods is basically the same thing.
 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Yargami

[DatDarkOne]

5 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

They say damage 3.0 will fix things, but do you honestly believe DE has the balls to nerf super expensive primed damage mods? Just imagine the outcry.

I think their goal is to end cheese.  The first part was nerfing/reworking frames, and then the enemy scaling.  It looks like they are moving more of the frames to having more synergy playstyle.  Kinda like Ivara and the reworked Saryn.  This is just some reasoning on my part, and I could be completely wrong.  So, please be gentle in responses to this post.  :D

[-CM-Emptiness]

10 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

What I said was "binary state" and it means enemies either tickle you with their weapons or murder you. Same goes for player damage. So you wander why this is not intended design? Because this isn't COD. We have a health and shield bar for a reason. If every shot was meant to kill we wouldn't have them as well as health mods and DR abilities. Just like players, enemies also have a health bar, but it's as if it didn't exist since they die in a single shot. Anyway, the "intended design" was to have players that can take down enemies with a few shots and lot more for heavies. That's why we have single target nukes and damage amplifying abilities. Enemies would present a real threat and gradually wear player down through sheer numbers and player mistakes, forcing us to collect health orbs or use other healing sources.

Binary state? Unfortunately, you miss the point that there is a mid-ground somewhere where the above two scenarios do not happen. Nothing can be truly binary with scaling systems.

How does your intended design cope with scaling? That's why I said to be patient for the rework.

9 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I am aware. Why would you even use devour when you can restore health much quicker with life strike and without the vulnerability? If you're only after the shadow just get the enemy low and quickly devour.

Which is why I proposed lowering the capabilities of Life Strike in my previous post.

11 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Most OP frames are so OP BECAUSE they interact with other content. Trinity is a force multiplier when in a team, but alone she's just a good sustainable tank with a little CC.

From my previous post which you ironically responded to: Why you are discussing weapon changes when clearly we still have enemy-rework and frame-reworks to cover before then?

It can only be lowered player-survivability or lowered player-damage output. Not both before enemy-rework. Otherwise you aren't being thoughtful for end-game players. I also took the opportunity to look into your Raid statistics:

http://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=Fuzzy-Bunny

If you don't even participate in the end-game your suggestions affect, I'm afraid you just lost a lot of credibility.

11 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Like boltor prime being locked at MR2? What a joke. I played with a MR2 yesterday and he didn't even have serration.

Now I see you complaining about how weak someone is. Hypocritical much? Instead of just complaining, why don't you create a standard for a new progression system? Increase the MR of Boltor Prime? (Also, how do you know he didn't have Serration?)

11 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Because my ideal would make the game more sustainable and skill oriented?

Just an opinion + Bad attitude. Already in development long before your suggestions, so I don't see it as 'your' ideal either.

11 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

You understand nothing. I don't hate CC. What I do hate is CC trivializing the content by being able to spam them throughout the entire game. By their nature CC tries to render enemy helpless and players being able to do that at will without limit trivializes the game. Restores are like unlimited potions. They cost resources, but they really aren't that expensive and they "restore" the entire team.

It's like you keep ignoring the things I write if it doesn't serve your narrative. Part of the reason for my suggestions was as originally stated, so we could get rid of nulifiers and eximuses, bursas, etc that limit player agency. You can't fix enemies until you fix the player. What would you change anyway? Remove enemy cheese? reduce their scaling? Improve their AI? How would any of it matter if the player side remained unchanged?

Restores don't cost much because DE wants players to use them much more. It is also a resource-sink for long-time players (yourself included if you amass a lot of resources from playing). My example is still there for you to read, I gather you skipped it on purpose. [Lets say, 1 restore per minute. Each restore is 100 shields. Which is nothing if you are getting shot at. If you aren't getting shot, the regeneration works much quicker.]

The needle points both ways. Enemies and players are linked. Mine and others' argument being, if you rework enemy-scaling, players won't feel the need to say, be invisible all the time. They take more risks. It would be more considerate then your solution, which only increases the gap in difficulty between players and enemies, especially in end-game. I also never said the other side was unchanged. Only delayed. DE won't do both reworks at the same time, it is a matter of which order to go in. I have stated my reasons.

PS. Bursas, Eximus and Nullifiers are wonderful enemies. It takes a different approach, much like Manics to take them down. This is what I call a challenge. If your idea of challenge lies not with these enemies, but a few more hits to immobile enemies, I see no variety all all. Which leads to boredom.

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

PS. Bursas, Eximus and Nullifiers are wonderful enemies. It takes a different approach, much like Manics to take them down. This is what I call a challenge. If your idea of challenge lies not with these enemies, but a few more hits to immobile enemies, I see no variety all all. Which leads to boredom.

Hehe, Bursas.  In one of my recent PUGs on a corpus mission, they set off the alarms.  The first time it happened I killed the bursa for them, and then turned off the alarm.  What did they do, set the alarms off again.  Not one player tried to turn off the alarms so Bursas wouldn't appear.  I let them get killed by the Bursas.  I said all that to get to this one interesting point.  You can totally avoid seeing Bursas in most missions by turning off the alarms.  It's a tactic that doesn't seem to be known.  Go figure.   

Now, back to our regular scheduled discussion.  :D

[Azrael]

On 6/15/2016 at 10:42 AM, (PS4)HarigeVINCE said:

take away our feeling of being powerful in the game, you'll take away the soul of warframe, throwing away the child with the bathwater. What's the point of grinding if you don't get to feel like a warframe demigod on the missions you used to struggle with?

This is one of the big things I get out of playing warframe. I enjoy feeling overpowered. I'm way too fast, way too tanky, and deal insane amounts of damage. The only problem is, when I stretch just a *little* bit too far, I run into enemies that tear me to pieces and laugh at the left over bits. This encourages me to find ways to stretch my power, which in turn requires me to gain more understanding of the game and it's weapons and frames. With this knowledge, I develop new more powerful ways of dealing with insanely scaled enemies, and we (me, and my fellow warframe scientists) do missions to experience. explore, and fully develop the mechanic being used. Then someone tells us we're ruining the game and DE should take away the things we've discovered, because they are stronger than the things we had before.

Some things ARE broken, and should be nerfed. But please don't throw the entire game away for the sake of balance. Don't throw thousands of hours per player into the trash because they became stronger than you as a result.

[blackheartstar_pc]

7 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

We are not supposed to fight and kill level 200 enemies.

What was that Eris alert I ran yesterday? 110-200... must have misread that I guess.

[Azrael]

18 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

I also took the opportunity to look into your Raid statistics:

No, don't do this. I know this discussion is frustrating, and you DO have a good point. When players who don't do end-game content talk about said content and how it doesn't matter and it's being trivialized, that's frustrating. After all, they almost certainly have no idea what they are talking about.

But don't go looking people up and calling individual people out. That's just going to make things spin even more out of control. The more we focus on people's "credentials" the more personal and angry this argument is going to get. Personal attacks won't get any of us anywhere.

[Btabc]

7 minutes ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

What was that Eris alert I ran yesterday? 110-200... must have misread that I guess.

And I thought that was added because DE wanted players to have a challenge (or perhaps it was because there are people complaining about how easy it is to "one hit" enemies)?!  Haha

Edited June 19, 2016 by Btabc

[-CM-Emptiness]

15 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

No, don't do this. I know this discussion is frustrating, and you DO have a good point. When players who don't do end-game content talk about said content and how it doesn't matter and it's being trivialized, that's frustrating. After all, they almost certainly have no idea what they are talking about.

But don't go looking people up and calling individual people out. That's just going to make things spin even more out of control. The more we focus on people's "credentials" the more personal and angry this argument is going to get. Personal attacks won't get any of us anywhere.

Yeah I totally understand the point. It's not like I'm organizing a personal attack after all; any insults have come solely from the OP xD

That being said, I never thought this would be similar to 'name and shame'? I mean, I just try to focus on observing a logical side to things. If players go on about concepts they haven't experienced, I would assume the community ought to know instead of assuming that they have experienced it.