Movement Post-Update: Lunaro

[TotallyLagging]

Alright as unconstructive as the OP is, no guys, it's not fixed. They merely fixed sprint speed and that's it. 

[Kai_Shiba]

Uhh.... I still don't see the issue here. I can still close large gaps by doing the same keys I've been pressing..

I also don't see why people feel the need to bash DE negatively instead of... you know, posting something constructive, not "ERMURGOD FIX IT DE"

Edited June 17, 2016 by KJRenz

[Thaumatos]

DE actually killed a bug that people were using to gain maxed momentum quickly.

They left it in too long and now people thought it was intentional.  Just like coptering.  Its "Coptergate 2.0".

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

Well there goes trying to get my friends back into Warframe.

[Vox_Preliator]

Have you all ever played Rayman Origins/Legends?  Now THAT'S momentum-based movement.  Warframe was more like "Hey, physics, SUCK IT" as you fly across the map for no discernible reason.  I don't really mind the removal too much, I'm still zooming around pretty dang fast. 

Also, let's get one thing straight because I've been seeing some confusion:  There were TWO movement issues.  One is that all movement speed was equal regardless of frame, because Lunaro equalizes speed and that was accidentally made to apply outside of it.  That was not in the patch notes, was a bug, and has since been fixed.  The second is that you used to be able to fling yourself at high velocities by crouching in the air and jumping after already having used your Bullet Jump (and apparently there were other ways to trigger it, that's just the one I used), your momentum would stack and get screwy and you'd fly forward at Mach 4.  The removal of this was in the patch notes, and so far appears to be intentional.  Keep in mind which one is being talked about in any given thread.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Vox_Preliator

[Kai_Shiba]

11 minutes ago, Thaumatos said:

DE actually killed a bug that people were using to gain maxed momentum quickly.

They left it in too long and now people thought it was intentional.  Just like coptering.  Its "Coptergate 2.0".

If that's the case, then people need to get over it and adapt. You can still clear huge gaps after such changes.

I don't even use Rush as a means of movement, the whole Bulletjump-doublejump into roll was the only movement I've used since parkour 2.0, the difference I'm seeing is extremely minor, you still go fast.

[rngd444]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Which PVE-usable conclave mods don't drop?

They drop all of them except for the Daikyu-exclusive Spring-Loaded Broadhead if I didn't overlook any.

[Bobtm]

3 hours ago, Thaumatos said:

DE actually killed a bug that people were using to gain maxed momentum quickly.

They left it in too long and now people thought it was intentional.  Just like coptering.  Its "Coptergate 2.0".

Alright then, that's all well and good but that does raise a very key and core point then;  Current (post-Lunaro update) Parkour 2.0 is genuinely bad in terms of control fidelity, evasion, and travel speed.  It's a literal hindrance to use double-jumps for any situation, or in other words double jumps have no reason to even exist right now due to the fix.  Dodge rolling also became unnecessarily sluggish due to the fixes put into place.

If this is to be said as the fixed version of Parkour 2.0, then we need Parkour 3.0.  Because what we've got right now due to the fix is sluggish, not snappy, not ninja at all.

Here's a very direct example of why the way these fixes are genuinely bad and literally broken;  One of my primary Limbo builds has Rush, Maglev, and Cunning Drift installed, needless to say it's a speedy little setup.  I can sprint (now working as intended) and I can then tap crouch to get a slide boost (again, a core part of how Warframe movement works (two of the noted mods boost this, it is not a glitch)) So the velocity at which I am traveling by this point is an intended speed at which I can traverse the game's tilesets.

So I'm moving along, now I do a normal jump, things are still happening appropriately.  I'm still moving at an appropriate and intended attainable velocity.  However this is the literal end.  If I initiate a roll in mid-air I will suddenly suffer a sudden decrease in velocity for what is literally no apparent reason.  Warframes have counterintuitive air-brakes installed now?  It's even more jarring if I do the same simple sprint and slide, but then jump and do a double jump.  The very moment a double jump begins it's like the player smashes into a brick wall made of compressed air.  Suffering an unnecessary and jarring/flow breaking speed reduction.

The worst part is that the faster a Warframe is able to move naturally (again, using nothing but intended mechanics) the harder of a stop that a mere double jump will smack you down with, since it has no solace for one's speed variables.  I've already adapted to the changes for the time being, wherein I don't waste time utilizing either bullet jumps or double jumps (since both of them are slow) and make use of the remaining methods of swift movement that don't warrantlessly zero out a player's momentum.

3 hours ago, KJRenz said:

If that's the case, then people need to get over it and adapt. You can still clear huge gaps after such changes.

I don't even use Rush as a means of movement, the whole Bulletjump-doublejump into roll was the only movement I've used since parkour 2.0, the difference I'm seeing is extremely minor, you still go fast.

Just as a note, if you have been making use of Bullet Jump you have never been going fast.  Something some players haven't noticed despite how long we've had Parkour 2.0 in play;  The beginning of a Bullet Jump zeroes out all currently active player momentum.  Realistically speaking, any combination involving a Bullet Jump is vying for the slowest possible option for lateral travel between two given points.  This is something that's been true for the entirety of Parkour 2.0's iteration, Bullet Jumping is never fast, in fact it's basically always one of the slowest possible options.

Even now with the effective death of momentum stacking, utilizing a Bullet Jump still is a poor choice for fast point to point movement.  The benefit of this maneuver lies in control (since one can instantly snap/change directions due to zeroing out momentum) and in one's vertical movement.

[khaotixxx]

51 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

-Snip-

You sir just said everything that has to be said...

 

[ButterLutter]

With the Devstream, which ended minutes ago, they confirmed that it was a bug and dont intend to get it back.
The whole "i need to be faster and faster and faster" makes map designing difficult because they have to make it bigger to compensate the immense speed.

Therefor Bulletjumping + double jump + roll (if you want) and repeat is now the fastest way to move.

2 hours ago, Bobtm said:

Even now with the effective death of momentum stacking, utilizing a Bullet Jump still is a poor choice for fast point to point movement.  The benefit of this maneuver lies in control (since one can instantly snap/change directions due to zeroing out momentum) and in one's vertical movement.

What else do you suggest? Its still faster than just running and its not like its slow. Its still a fast way to move and never felt slow to me.

Edited June 17, 2016 by ButterLutter

[SquidTheSid]

So, now that the devstream confirmed this bug fix isn't going to be reverted, could we get something to compensate, like more movement speed, faster bullet jumps, more momentum preservation? The game feels like molasses now. 

[rngd444]

Oh well. Since I haven't seen the Dev Stream, did they waste any words on the actual bug that currently exists or is that just intentional as well?

[NezuHimeSama]

8 hours ago, Thaumatos said:

DE actually killed a bug that people were using to gain maxed momentum quickly.

They left it in too long and now people thought it was intentional.  Just like coptering.  Its "Coptergate 2.0".

You mean the bug where you don't suddenly and inexplicably lose momentum when jumping in the air after a slide?

Yeah, geez, it's so great that they fixed that horrible logical movement flow and replaced it with an arbitrary loss of speed!

 

If this is the future of warframe, I'm out. Losing all your momentum every bulletjump was stupid as is, but being stalled in the air for jumping after a slide is just beyond stupid.

Edited June 17, 2016 by NezuHimeSama

[rngd444]

42 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

If this is the future of warframe, I'm out. Losing all your momentum every bulletjump was stupid as is, but being stalled in the air for jumping after a slide is just beyond stupid.

I just watched the part of the Dev Stream where they talked about it and it's apparent they don't know about the bug that most likely originated from their other fix. At least, I hope so...

I don't even want to gain momentum, I just don't want to stop mid-air D:

[hammerheathen]

13 hours ago, Corvid said:

Which PVE-usable conclave mods don't drop?

I honestly don't recall. I'll admit I could be wrong. Quite frankly,  it bothers me on principle. I don't like pve and pvp stuff being crossed over, ESPECIALLY when we were told they wouldn't. If they had said initially some things would cross over and be  obtainable in both game modes, it'd be different. Let's also not forget it took an uproar to get any of the pve-usable drops on the sentients

[rngd444]

1 hour ago, hammerheathen said:

I honestly don't recall. I'll admit I could be wrong. Quite frankly,  it bothers me on principle. I don't like pve and pvp stuff being crossed over, ESPECIALLY when we were told they wouldn't. If they had said initially some things would cross over and be  obtainable in both game modes, it'd be different. Let's also not forget it took an uproar to get any of the pve-usable drops on the sentients

They drop all but the Daikyu-exclusive one. Personally, I like the possibility to get those holster reload mods without doing PvP (still bought two out of three from Teshin). I don't really see a reason for them being PvP-exclusive as they work just as well on some weapons in PvE (though, mostly for different reasons).

[BCAW]

8 hours ago, ButterLutter said:

With the Devstream, which ended minutes ago, they confirmed that it was a bug and dont intend to get it back.
The whole "i need to be faster and faster and faster" makes map designing difficult because they have to make it bigger to compensate the immense speed.

Therefor Bulletjumping + double jump + roll (if you want) and repeat is now the fastest way to move.

What else do you suggest? Its still faster than just running and its not like its slow. Its still a fast way to move and never felt slow to me.

Pardon me, but why is there a need for maps to become bigger? Why is traversing maps quickly a problem to begin with?

In my opinion, moving quickly is a choice. The maps may have not been designed with the kind of movement speed players have achieved, but that's not a problem. No one was harmed by going fast. Players that have familiarized themselves with the parkour system have no problem with maneuvering in tight confines, and slower players aren't disadvantaged, as the only real benefits of going fast is decreased enemy accuracy, which even a simple bullet jump can accomplish. Going fast was not a necessity, but people have chose to move fast because it is enjoyable. Now that enjoyment has been taken away.

Going fast wasn't game breaking either. Parkour didn't trivialize game content; you couldn't lock down rooms with parkour, you couldn't nuke enemies with parkour, and despite decreasing enemy accuracy, you are far from invulnerable due to the sheer volume of fire, hit scan enemies, and AOE. Parkour hardly affected game balance.

Moreover, going fast all the time is rather impractical unless you are just trying to get from point A to B quickly while ignoring all the enemies. Parkour is also hardly utilized in defensive mission types, due to the meta being the likes of Frost globe. Speed-parkouring is situational at best. If one wish to actually engage the enemies, like you would have to in survivals, its necessary to slow down to a more practical speed. Think fighter jets: while most modern fighter crafts are capable of going over Mach 2 at their top speed, you'd almost never see one flying that fast when engaging in close quarters dogfight (though that doesn't happen much these days due to A2A missiles) and ground attacking. Speed-parkour was used purely in non-combat situations, when the objective is purely to move from point A to B. That doesn't occur much in this game, as most game mode involves some kind of objective to defend, or enemies that must be killed.

 

[Elurdin]

This will be first (ok it's second it seems) and propably only post of mine on this forum. I hit playtime of over 1000 hours as of this week, was quite happy to see Primed Pressure Point finally in Baro stock but then when I tried to farm some ducs with clan folks on captures and exterminates I saw how slow parkour become. I couldn't even keep up with rest cause I was used to just using right key combination rather than speed mods they used. Might seem trivial but it was enough to put me off after hundreds of hours of getting used to that old speed, speed that gotten nerfed to the ground and insultingly called bug. I might really quit warframe, take long break from it. I planned to start buying even tennogen skins before, like 2 or 1 per month, why would I now when big part of enjoyment - speed in this game has been killed for me?

It kills alot of content for me completelly, missions like captures, exterminates and sabotages become a pain to do at all, only content I can see myself doing now is survivals and defenses. It saddens me to see some players defending this decision like they don't want us, those players who learned proper timing in parkour to have fun with it. I start to get those ppl I didn't understand at first those angry at excal nerfs, while mirage and trinity nerfs were balancing, cause let's face it blind mirage was boring as hell, but for many ppl Excal nerfs were fun breaking, especially those who mained excalibur. For me that newest "fix" changes how every frame plays especially those slow ones like Mag who after rework needs every space for power stat mods availble.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Elurdin

[ButterLutter]

5 hours ago, BCAW said:

Speed-parkour was used purely in non-combat situations, when the objective is purely to move from point A to B. That doesn't occur much in this game, as most game mode involves some kind of objective to defend, or enemies that must be killed.

Assassination, Capture, Deception, Rescue, Sabotage, Spy and to some extent Exterminate and Mobile Defense are missions with a huge part of "run as fast as you can and ignore everything". Exterminate takes killspeed into account, MD has the defense part and Spy the rooms, they still have a big part of running though.
The only missions with no necessity for speed are Defense, Hijack, Interception, Survival and to some extent Excavation (here again, its running/defending/running/defending). Thats actually the minority.

I personally dont think that it was the main idea for this missions to ignore everything and finish them in less than 2 minutes (capture/deception are extreme here).
Taking speed from us makes us more likely to engage enemies and fight from room to room. At this point maps can be smaller because we spend time fighting and not running.
For now the only option to prolong a game on DE's part was to make the maps bigger and/or the mission more complex. Sabotage is a good example after the change from "Destroy the machines" into mini puzzles. It now takes a bit longer to finish this mission type than before, which is a good thing imo. Same with Kela. Previously it was 10 seconds fighting and a minute running. Now the most part is fighting, which is good. 
Adding more enemies did nothing because we ignored them anyways.
Most of the time it didnt feel like a Spaceninjashooting game but more like a racing game. Taking speed away from us was a necessity in my opinion.

Thats just my understanding of what Steve said. In the end it was him who said that designing maps got difficult because of the immense speed we had without going into detail what exactly got difficult.

[Elurdin]

12 minutes ago, ButterLutter said:

Assassination, Capture, Deception, Rescue, Sabotage, Spy and to some extent Exterminate and Mobile Defense are missions with a huge part of "run as fast as you can and ignore everything". Exterminate takes killspeed into account, MD has the defense part and Spy the rooms, they still have a big part of running though.
The only missions with no necessity for speed are Defense, Hijack, Interception, Survival and to some extent Excavation (here again, its running/defending/running/defending). Thats actually the minority.

I personally dont think that it was the main idea for this missions to ignore everything and finish them in less than 2 minutes (capture/deception are extreme here).
Taking speed from us makes us more likely to engage enemies and fight from room to room. At this point maps can be smaller because we spend time fighting and not running.
For now the only option to prolong a game on DE's part was to make the maps bigger and/or the mission more complex. Sabotage is a good example after the change from "Destroy the machines" into mini puzzles. It now takes a bit longer to finish this mission type than before, which is a good thing imo. Same with Kela. Previously it was 10 seconds fighting and a minute running. Now the most part is fighting, which is good. 
Adding more enemies did nothing because we ignored them anyways.
Most of the time it didnt feel like a Spaceninjashooting game but more like a racing game. Taking speed away from us was a necessity in my opinion.

Thats just my understanding of what Steve said. In the end it was him who said that designing maps got difficult because of the immense speed we had without going into detail what exactly got difficult.

For you it sounds like necessity for me it's taking away fun, one most important thing we all play games for, I can't ever agree with calling something completelly optional and harmless for playerbase necessity. I don't agree with making missions longer good idea most the time either, it often isn't especially if you need to repeat said mission 40 times for 1 item, void is very problematic on grindy front. While I like sabotages as they were I won't like them much now with parkour speed decrease.

Again it's all subjective, your opinion is that it's fine, mine and many others that it's not, it's up to DE to find middle ground, what we have now isn't middle ground at all.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Elurdin

[ButterLutter]

1 minute ago, Elurdin said:

For you it sounds like necessity for me it's taking away fun, one most important thing we all play games for. I don't agree with making missions longer good idea most the time, it often isn't especially if you need to repeat said mission 40 times for 1 item, void is very problematic on grindy front. While I like sabotages as they were I won't like them much now with parkour speed decrease.

Again it's all subjective, your opinion is that it's fine, mine and many others that it's not, it's up to DE to find middle ground, what we have now isn't middle ground at all.

Void and thus farming gear and grinding gets changed completely, no worries ;)

[Elurdin]

1 minute ago, ButterLutter said:

Void and thus farming gear and grinding gets changed completely, no worries ;)

I am very worried, I am worried that I just got primed pressure point and all happiness I had died as soon as I hit first mission this friday. What they plan to change later or whatever, won't make me play game now.

[(XBOX)LAZYNOOB2017]

40 minutes ago, Elurdin said:

This will be first (ok it's second it seems) and propably only post of mine on this forum. I hit playtime of over 1000 hours as of this week, was quite happy to see Primed Pressure Point finally in Baro stock but then when I tried to farm some ducs with clan folks on captures and exterminates I saw how slow parkour become. I couldn't even keep up with rest cause I was used to just using right key combination rather than speed mods they used. Might seem trivial but it was enough to put me off after hundreds of hours of getting used to that old speed, speed that gotten nerfed to the ground and insultingly called bug. I might really quit warframe, take long break from it. I planned to start buying even tennogen skins before, like 2 or 1 per month, why would I now when big part of enjoyment - speed in this game has been killed for me?

It kills alot of content for me completelly, missions like captures, exterminates and sabotages become a pain to do at all, only content I can see myself doing now is survivals and defenses. It saddens me to see some players defending this decision like they don't want us, those players who learned proper timing in parkour to have fun with it. I start to get those ppl I didn't understand at first those angry at excal nerfs, while mirage and trinity nerfs were balancing, cause let's face it blind mirage was boring as hell, but for many ppl Excal nerfs were fun breaking, especially those who mained excalibur. For me that newest "fix" changes how every frame plays especially those slow ones like Mag who after rework needs every space for power stat mods availble.

"A big parrt of enjoyment has been taken away" It hasn't, you are still moving fast, again not as fast as before but if missions are a pain to do, then you are way too impatient, you are to slow to adapt, or you've been grinding on too much forza lol. but don't take offense to any of that. Now as for the excal nerf. I won't deny i will miss dropping an energy booster before an excavation mission and owning everything, but they only nerfed excalibur's exalted blade so that with each object/enemy it goes through it does less damage. and so that using the sliding radial blind takes up like 20 energy. this is completely understandable because the reason for the nerf was to make players use his other abilities more. it was a little fun breaking but you can't say that it wasn't for balance.

[Ivan_Rid]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)LAZYNOOB2015 said:

"A big parrt of enjoyment has been taken away" It hasn't, you are still moving fast, again not as fast as before but if missions are a pain to do, then you are way too impatient, you are to slow to adapt, or you've been grinding on too much forza lol. but don't take offense to any of that. Now as for the excal nerf. I won't deny i will miss dropping an energy booster before an excavation mission and owning everything, but they only nerfed excalibur's exalted blade so that with each object/enemy it goes through it does less damage. and so that using the sliding radial blind takes up like 20 energy. this is completely understandable because the reason for the nerf was to make players use his other abilities more. it was a little fun breaking but you can't say that it wasn't for balance.

I cover 15% to 25% less distance per maneuver now, thats at least, at bare minimum, 10% increase in grind time. It took time and practice to master parkour system and be able to keep up with Volt and Nezha sprinters using Loki - that time and effort gone down the drain. It was a very good and fitting gameplay feature, and now its gone for literally no reason. Parkour system lost some (if not most) of its depth and complexity and is now plain, uninspiring and not fun.

Analogy that would illustrate it the best: Removing the strafe-jumping from Quake3.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Ivan_Rid

[rngd444]

I said it before and I'll say it again: the reason for the fix feels very pretextual. I watched the part of the Dev Stream with the explanation and I got the feeling they didn't understand how huge of an impact this change actually is. They should've changed it a long time ago if it was really that bad but I have to guess it plainly didn't interest them until Lunaro became a thing. And even if they have to do a change like this, they should've at least play tested for once which they didn't before (otherwise they would've noticed the 'unintended' mechanic earlier, wouldn't they?), so they don't integrate unlogical bugs this time again while doing so. But it's far easier to just generalize while defending how it works without knowing all facets.

Just to be clear: for me, it's not even about bringing back momentum stacking but to make moving around logical and bug-free which it clearly isn't at the moment. And to everyone who wants 'us' to adapt: it isn't a matter of not willing to do so but it just being counterintuitive in its entirety in the current state. For me, the only way to 'adapt' would mean to never double jump again (while moving around) which simply can't be the point of an existing maneuver.

 

(As a reminder, the bug: normal double jumps (not the one after bullet jumps) let you stop horizontally mid-air because you lose all momentum for no reason (can be best seen after sliding). You should neither gain nor lose any by doing so; it's just not physically possible how it works right now.)