Why Rebalancing is Necessary (and it is)

[BlackCoMerc]

If you ask me to build you a road to accommodate 1000 cars per day, I'm going to ask you how the road will hold up if a trucker with a 20 ton load decides to use is as a shortcut. At rush hour. Then, I'm going to widen the road to accommodate that, even though some folks in the neighborhood probably don't want it wider.

Not because that's likely to happen. But because it COULD.

Part of a game developers job, is to engage players. One method by which they do this: Challenge Us. Most people who play games, like to overcome challenges in the course of doing so. A broad enough base to design around.

So, imagine you are a developer working for DE. Someone asks you to design an Endless mission that will challenge Rank 30 players. So you design a reasonable mission, full of fair enemies without knockdown spam and one shot kill levels of damage.

"What if someone locks the map down with Mirage or Nova?" 

That's your manager. QA has just steamrolled your mission with Trinity, Ash, Mirage and Nova. Not only was it not difficult. They were bored.

"So now what?" Your manager asks you. The directive was, after, to challenge the players.

Well...you can't let them cast powers. That much is obvious. So...you fill the spawns with Rollers and Scorpions. Keep them off their feet, and they can't cast...

But they only need a second in which to render enemies powerless. So, you have to up the ante: in that second enemies have, they must be deadly. Lethal, even. So you get the one shot kills online. Then, as a last desperate measure...you jack up their health and armor so they can survive past the first Bladestorm.

The QA team plays the mission again. The praise the way the enemies required constant management. The manner in which a split second lapse means death. Now that...that's challenging.

Two weeks later your content is released. A group of more casual players brings Rhino, Equinox, Ivarra and Nezha.

They get demolished.

And are then widely told "Git Gud" and "bring the right frame for the mission." If you bring Crowd Control, they are told - if you completely trivialize the game and everyone's interactions with it - you will do okay.

This is how we got, where we are. Because it's human nature to plan and design around the "worst case" scenario. When asked to build challenging content, your brain goes right to the question: what if they bring Trinity, Nova, Vauban and 3 Tonkors. You HAVE to design around that.

So everyone else suffers.

Is there a middle ground? I think there's a place - maybe one planet per faction - where truly Elite enemies should reside. These enemies would use Rathuum tier AI. Powers used against them would suffer quickly diminishing returns. They would deal end game damage, but not one shot kill damage.

In exchange, these planets would not feature jacked up armor scaling. No Nullifiers . They would grant extra XP, and a higher chance at rare rewards. Let those Elite end game players have their zone, too.

But some powers will still need a nerf. Because of human nature. Because of the NEED to design around them. These powers are fewer now, but the ones that remain - MP, Bastille, Disarm - are Giant Stars: enormous, volatile, destructive giants warping the design of the entire game.

They have to change. And I for one am okay with that. Warframe should have magic powers. But not at the expense of the game itself.

 

[BornWithTeeth]

You know, I kinda suspect that Endless missions may be a part of the problem. Specifically, the part where DE enforce the 'end' part by just making the enemies after an hour scale the very heights of Mt. Frigging Ridiculous. That kinda thing basically says to some players "Let's break it. Seriously, let's break it as hard as we can. It's there, so we not only can break it, but we should. We must." So they do, with cheesy, game breaking powers. Then DE nerfs those powers. Then people whine like DE shot their puppy.

 

 

Now, Raids are another thing altogether.

[Serafim_94]

I can't help but feel that people miss crucial point about Warframe. There is a challenge. Always, in every part of Void, in OD, in every sortie run. It's a challenge to get the part you need to build that next thing you want. Yes, it's RNG based, but it's still challenge, and somethign that hooks up quite a lot of people. This is loot collection game, with heavy focus on grind.

If you want to make every mission in game challenging from gameplay point of view, imagine, for a moment, that you need to run that single mission for 40 times in a row. Then throw that idea of yours into trash bin. There is a reason every Warframe in game is either taken to the cheese hights or deemed utter garbage and forgotten by most veteran players. There's a reason every mission has very particular setup that makes it easiest, and that setup is so often asked for in recruiting. Becouse people involved do that mission for 10th time at least, and can't be bothered with "proper" ways of playing it.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Serafim_94

[WARLOCKE]

7 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

I can't help but feel that people miss crucial point about Warframe. There is a challenge. Always, in every part of Void, in OD, in every sortie run. It's a challenge to get the part you need to build that next thing you want. Yes, it's RNG based, but it's still challenge, and somethign that hooks up quite a lot of people. This is loot collection game, with heavy focus on grind.

If you want to make every mission in game challenging from gameplay point of view, imagine, for a moment, that you need to run that single mission for 40 times in a row. Then throw that idea of yours into trash bin. There is a reason every Warframe in game is either taken to the cheese hights or deemed utter garbage and forgotten by most veteran players. There's a reason every mission has very particular setup that makes it easiest, and that setup is so often asked for in recruiting. Becouse people involved do that mission for 10th time at least, and can't be bothered with "proper" ways of playing it.

I find it silly to call a grind, a challenge. A challenge to patience perhaps. But it isnt a game play challenge.

[WARLOCKE]

13 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

You know, I kinda suspect that Endless missions may be a part of the problem. Specifically, the part where DE enforce the 'end' part by just making the enemies after an hour scale the very heights of Mt. Frigging Ridiculous. That kinda thing basically says to some players "Let's break it. Seriously, let's break it as hard as we can. It's there, so we not only can break it, but we should. We must." So they do, with cheesy, game breaking powers. Then DE nerfs those powers. Then people whine like DE shot their puppy.

 

 

Now, Raids are another thing altogether.

I disagree. The problem is that people do not understand the simple fundamentals of endless missions.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, WARLOCKE said:

I disagree. The problem is that people do not understand the simple fundamentals of endless missions.

Which is that the reason they scale is to force you out eventually. You are not actually supposed to be able to sit in the corner spamming Prism for five hours straight. Of course the devs will realise that you are doing this and say "Wait, hang on a second there....."

 

Their mistake was in not taking away all the broken crap last year.

[(XBOX)C0gnitive 0n3]

23 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

If you ask me to build you a road to accommodate 1000 cars per day, I'm going to ask you how the road will hold up if a trucker with a 20 ton load decides to use is as a shortcut. At rush hour. Then, I'm going to widen the road to accommodate that, even though some folks in the neighborhood probably don't want it wider.

Not because that's likely to happen. But because it COULD.

...at this point, I figured, I was looking at you the same way Tormund was looking at Jon Snow and Ser Davos when they explained flanking in S6E9 of GoT. 0_0

[WARLOCKE]

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Which is that the reason they scale is to force you out eventually. You are not actually supposed to be able to sit in the corner spamming Prism for five hours straight. Of course the devs will realise that you are doing this and say "Wait, hang on a second there....."

 

Their mistake was in not taking away all the broken crap last year.

100% agreement my friend. 

[WARLOCKE]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)C0gnitive 0n3 said:

...at this point, I figured, I was looking at you the same way Tormund was looking at Jon Snow and Ser Davos when they explained flanking in S6E9 of GoT. 0_0

Please elaborate for those of us whom do not watch that show. Sounds interesting.

[BlackCoMerc]

14 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

I can't help but feel that people miss crucial point about Warframe. There is a challenge. Always, in every part of Void, in OD, in every sortie run. It's a challenge to get the part you need to build that next thing you want. Yes, it's RNG based, but it's still challenge, and somethign that hooks up quite a lot of people. This is loot collection game, with heavy focus on grind.

If you want to make every mission in game challenging from gameplay point of view, imagine, for a moment, that you need to run that single mission for 40 times in a row. Then throw that idea of yours into trash bin. There is a reason every Warframe in game is either taken to the cheese hights or deemed utter garbage and forgotten by most veteran players. There's a reason every mission has very particular setup that makes it easiest, and that setup is so often asked for in recruiting. Becouse people involved do that mission for 10th time at least, and can't be bothered with "proper" ways of playing it.

Or maybe, if missions were more engaging and challenging they wouldn't feel like such a chore.

Also, yes, Endless missions are a problem. Would love to see them given a definitive ending point, maybe a boss wave or boss fight. Something players could no longer strive to break.

[(XBOX)C0gnitive 0n3]

Just now, WARLOCKE said:

Please elaborate for those of us whom do not watch that show. Sounds interesting.

He was lost.

OAN: Season 7 doesn't start for another year or so - seize the day and start watching. The story arcs make you wonder more about where the series is going in the same manner that Warframe Lore makes you wonder where/how everything started. 10/10, would watch again.

[Drufo]

Someone will come, and he will say that Warframe is fine as it is. I warned you.

[BlackCoMerc]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)C0gnitive 0n3 said:

...at this point, I figured, I was looking at you the same way Tormund was looking at Jon Snow and Ser Davos when they explained flanking in S6E9 of GoT. 0_0

 

10 minutes ago, (XB1)C0gnitive 0n3 said:

He was lost.

OAN: Season 7 doesn't start for another year or so - seize the day and start watching. The story arcs make you wonder more about where the series is going in the same manner that Warframe Lore makes you wonder where/how everything started. 10/10, would watch again.

Keep in mind those books are authored by a man incapable of creating compelling action scenes. It drug on like a soap opera as well but if you want military action and tactics with your fantasy, go Wheel of Time.

Or Ryria For actual, quality characters with consistency and substance.

Edited June 30, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[friendofvampires]

3 minutes ago, Drufo said:

Someone will come, and he will say that Warframe is fine as it is. I warned you.

"Warframe is fine as is? Why does DE have to keep ruining my stuff !!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!!!??!"

But yeah, no duh stuff needs balancing. Some nerfs, some buffs.
The main issue is DE does a LOT of the former and very little of the latter, meaning at the very least MY issue is our collective power is going down as over-performing abilities are lowered, while under-performing abilities stay as-is or get nerfed as well just in collateral

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, friendofvampires said:

"Warframe is fine as is? Why does DE have to keep ruining my stuff !!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!!!??!"

But yeah, no duh stuff needs balancing. Some nerfs, some buffs.
The main issue is DE does a LOT of the former and very little of the latter, meaning at the very least MY issue is our collective power is going down as over-performing abilities are lowered, while under-performing abilities stay as-is or get nerfed as well just in collateral

I used the term Rebalance as opposed to Nerf because it's time for a pass on enemies too. 

We have kept the horde mode. The scaling. The awful, horrible scaling. But our ability to deal with those hordes is in steady decline. Gradual, but steady.

An overall balance pass is neededBitut abilities remain to be nerfed, too. Of that I have no doubt.

Hard to balance enemy weapons when there's a frame that can just take them away...

[jinxeverything]

I made a topic like yours (not 100% like yours) and i did proposed some ideas too...

It didn't go anyway, not in the direction i wanted :(

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

Saying, if the missions were more engaging and challenging they then wouldn't feel like a chore is obsurd!

take any really well made interactive, in depth, awe inspiring game and play its story more than once and even this becomes a chore. Let alone for years on end.

I also would really love too hear the "Endless Scaling is Broken" crew elaborate on how so they believe this too be true??

Its like Saying WaW Nazi Zombie modes endless scaling is broken because once you get into the high Waves the game became impossible.

so please do elaborate on how it's broken?? Is it because it forces you too extract at some point, or is it because their is ways SOME players have found too get farther then you?

Seriously though please elaborate as all you type ever say is that it is broken and never give and solid evidence or proof.

your worse than daytime tv trying too brain wash unsuspecting children pushing your agenda.

Edited June 30, 2016 by (XB1)Listed mia 510

[friendofvampires]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I used the term Rebalance as opposed to Nerf because it's time for a pass on enemies too. 

We have kept the horde mode. The scaling. The awful, horrible scaling. But our ability to deal with those hordes is in steady decline. Gradual, but steady.

An overall balance pass is neededBitut abilities remain to be nerfed, too. Of that I have no doubt.

Hard to balance enemy weapons when there's a frame that can just take them away...

I wasn't disagreeing that some abilities needed nerfed, it tends to be very obvious when an ability needs to be nerfed. But just this past balancing, Volt's relative power-level remained relatively unchanged, while mirage was (justifiably) nerfed, Mag was objectively nerfed in her rework, valk was straight up nerfed, and excal was nerfed as well. Now Limbo is on the horizon, he's in need of a fairly large buff as his general use is pretty narrow, hydriod is generally considered garbage, and remains unchanged.

My point is DE makes many nerfs and very few buffs, so the overall "balance" seems geared to weaken players and strengthen enemies overall

[RadioLarity]

After reading half this thread and thinking about the game I actually think (or rather reminded myself) that the true problem of this game is that it's not challenging and boring.
I know a lot of you will say (and you did) that playing after an hour on endless T3/4 mission (doesn't matter after an hour even T1 enemies are around the same level actually) is challenging. Enemies get tougher (lol tonkor etc.) one shot kill you (it's not challenging, it's unfair when a bombard can one shot you THROUGH A WALL with a rocket that has just done an 180 degree turn). This game is either too hard (bring I dunno, as you said, Rhino, Mesa, Ivarah with trivial loadout, maybe some Somas, Dreads and Broken Wars etc.)
 They'll get shrekt, annihilated and god knows what else. On the other hand you'll take Ash, Vauban, Nova etc. etc. (I'll take Zephyr+ Dual Kamas Prime with primed reach crit build and Naramon, WHICH I DID once and ended up with 5k or more combo, don't remember and ended up with more overall damage done than Ember with Tonkor) and we can stay in that mission for a week.
That's why I don't play warframe as much anymore.
I don't even do daily Sorties... is that what it's called? The three in a row 60-120 lvl missions to get either a piece of I don't want to say what with like 0.00069% to get either gold cores or a legendary core.
I still didn't say why exactly... Well, if I know that I'm gonna get 30th Nezha helmet after doing 10 boring, exhausting and tidious minutes of survival, then 10 waves of defense... I just don't want to. I don't see the point in that.

Now... you will say "well, it's grinding game, get used to it" it's fine, it was entertaining for like, first 200h I played. There is a solution to that by bringing more diversity to the game.
I know sorties have 3 different missions every day, but every day at least one is an endless mission. You know what? Every endless mission is the same and I'm bored playing the same endless mission over and over especially when you have like a tactical alert which wants you to do 10 waves the first mission 20 the second mission 40 next one and as many as you want last time. And not only all defenses are the same but they are on the same tileset against the same enemies.
It always ends either with a boring win at the end of which whole team says "great, nice, I wanted exactly that 666th forma blueprint, that's exactly what I needed" or someone f's up like 2 waves at the end and everyone loses.

Yes that's all.
Yes I know I should write a separate topic with that wall of text.
Yes I know you know noone would read it.

And we both know you didn't read what I have written above.

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

10 minutes ago, friendofvampires said:

 Mag was objectively nerfed in her rework,

This is evidence enough that you shouldn't have an opinion on how the game changes in the future!

Mag Got a very serious buff, instead of only being able too rip corpus maps a you know what. She is now an armor stripping Hoarde Grabbing, High Critting monster!

she is way better than before!

oh in my Hastings too reply I failed too even write about your Excal was nerfed...

reducing the range on exalted blade is by far a nerf, it was much needed and for good reason.

many new players use excal because it's one of the main starter choices... Have exalted blade flying around all over the map being unable too see anything was becoming extremely annoying for other players. Obviously so annoying that is was reduced in a matter of no time at all since EB even released.

That is not a nerf

Edited June 30, 2016 by (XB1)Listed mia 510

[friendofvampires]

39 minutes ago, (XB1)Listed mia 510 said:

she is way better than before!

Ok, so, maybe this is just, like, my opinion, but enemy health scaling far outstrips their damage scaling.

Mag now has 4 areas that can scale with her weapon damage + enemy damage.

previously she scaled with enemy health

one is greater than the other

Now was it a good move to pull her into normal bounds and slow her infinite scaling? yes. But it is, objectively, a nerf

 

Response Edit:

Again, damage reduction, reduced range, and additional energy cost is a nerf. It's a good nerf, but still a nerf

Edited June 30, 2016 by friendofvampires
response edit

[King]

Rather than nerfing stuff left and right and fixing things that aren't broken, why don't they buff some underpowered frames and/or gears first?

Take a look at Oberon for example. They missed the chance when the deluxe skin got released (really DE, the most rad skin for the worst unpopular frame?)

I know DE's working on Limbo right now, which is an unpopular frame for good reason (some people even only use him because of the m'lady fedora memes) and personally I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Serafim_94]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Or maybe, if missions were more engaging and challenging they wouldn't feel like such a chore.

Also, yes, Endless missions are a problem. Would love to see them given a definitive ending point, maybe a boss wave or boss fight. Something players could no longer strive to break.

As said above, they would. Becouse it's repeating same S#&$ over and over and over and over and over again, but now with more effort put into it, and, as such, more time spent, more annoyance, more failed attempts.
 

Also, bear in mind that any actual mechanic that gives us challenge is immediately deemed "unfair". Bursas? Unfair. Nullifiers? Unfair. Sortie conditions? Unfair, remove them. Hell, even enemy scaling in its current form is challenge. People keep saying that they want some mythological challenge, yet they are unhappy with what challenge is in game, and have significant trouble describing what is it the F*** they actually want. What kind of challenge do you want? Not just "rebalanced and improved" generic answer, but practical stuff.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Serafim_94

[Serafim_94]

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

I find it silly to call a grind, a challenge. A challenge to patience perhaps. But it isnt a game play challenge.

It is the heart of the game. Something it focuses on. Call it what you want, but it's part of difficulty-reward duo, and over those years reward got quite more important. You can't simply tweak the difficulty without affecting it. If you ever looked at 3d sortie and thought "Well, I do want that gun part, but no way I'm doing this S#&$" - you've experienced the problem.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Serafim_94

[(PSN)Eluminary]

Well you got to understand to a certain extent all endless missions are essentially done at 20 minutes 20 waves 4 extractors 4 rounds etc.  That is to say after that you have gone through a full rotation and have access to a shot at all loot from that particular mission.  Staying beyond that for bonus stuff is well bonus stuff.

 

Atm a fully modified Warframe, any warframe,  with any set of fully modded weapons in game can solo to that lvl with the exception of maybe the interception missions however when you're solo they do tend to spawn less and be a little less aggressive at times it maybe rough for some frames on those though.  I'm not saying the quote "get gud"  I think most can agree that even the t4 survival making that 20 minute Mark is relatively easy. Things beyond that do begin to ramp up in difficulty but like I said above you've managed to get through a complete rotation so it's not like you're missing out, or have no hope to get X item.