[Shower Thoughts] For The Orokin, There Was No Such Thing As 'Prime'

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

4 hours ago, Apoc001 said:

they are actually bullet projectile weapons

But where do they reload? I do have the Burston Prime, and it has those two little tubes for ammo at the back, but those are just implausibly small for any sort of actual round

[Apoc001]

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 8:52 PM, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

But where do they reload? I do have the Burston Prime, and it has those two little tubes for ammo at the back, but those are just implausibly small for any sort of actual round

that's where the future tech card comes into play, it's the same for the Soma, if you count the notches in the clip it won't add up to 100, or 200 for the prime

we also know that arch-weapons can somehow replenish ammo, and most of them are bullet projectiles, maybe the Burston Prime functions the same, and the two tubes are like batteries, who knows, but it is still bullet based

edit: so those 2 tubes are not actually the magazine, but that section between the top gold part and the tubes is, a sort of "stock mag"

Edited July 29, 2016 by Apoc001

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

6 minutes ago, Apoc001 said:

that's where the future tech card comes into play, it's the same for the Soma, if you count the notches in the clip it won't add up to 100, or 200 for the prime

we also know that arch-weapons can somehow replenish ammo, and most of them are bullet projectiles, maybe the Burston Prime functions the same, and the two tubes are like batteries, who knows, but it is still bullet based

Probably the whole "it's bigger on the inside" trope, since the Orokin have that going on too

[Lakais]

7 hours ago, Apoc001 said:

A classic Orokin weapon - Braton Prime, Bo Prime; A basic blade known as a Skana. It is widely used by the Tenno - Skana Prime; The Lato is a highly accurate pistol used by the Tenno everywhere. - Lato Prime

you are partially correct, they were status symbols, yet fully functional weapons, that were not standard issue to regular infantry, but appear were for the Tenno

and while some Primes are specifically mentioned to be ceremonial, I don't believe it is proper to some up all Primes as such, since some are labeled as classic weapons

Even if a few of the primes can be considered "classical" I still would not consider them as standard issue, even to Tenno. Maybe standard issue to those few actual Orokin who fought a bit, but Tenno were NOT Orokin. Orokin Empire was a caste system pushed up to 11 and Tenno were not at the top. And lets be honest, Skana and Lato primes were the FIRST primes introduced, and if I am not mistaken the descriptions have remained unchanged for YEARS, before DE even had any lore ideas what primes are. Those descriptions most likely reference the regular versions. If they were so damn common, we'd still be able to get them. But if we'd explain their scarcity in ingame terms then it's clearly a case of these weapons being rare even at Orokin times. 

I got no problem with Founder Exclusives, I just choose to explain their scarcity in the WF universe through this lens. 

7 hours ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

For the Tenno the Prime weapons and Prime Warframes were probably standard issue, since in one of the Codex entries it even mentions how Mag Prime stood out with all the other Orokin soldiers. That was probably because the Orokin wanted to make a statement that they ordered around a gilded warmachine. The Fang and Scindo Prime are just an exception to that rule. The Braton Prime is also an energy weapon, and so is the Burston Prime, it just goes to show that we Tenno don't have the same capabilities to make weapons as the Orokin

Mag would of stood out no mater what she was made out of. And the Prime Frame Codices are not directly about prime versions. Look at Rhino P's codex, does he look like a raging, man eating monstrosity to you? The golden variants of Frames would of most likely been both as a status symbol to the high ranking Tenno who used it, AND as a statement by the Orokin who bossed the Tenno around, as you put it. We don't know exactly for what the Tenno were used besides fighting the Sentients. We know they also fought the Infestation back in the days and it's also possible they were used to subjugate human colonies to Orokin rule and put down rebellions. Many ways for a Tenno to do something remarkable as far as the Orokin command echelons were concerned. 

So in this regard, the OP might of just been right. To the Orokin themselves, primes would of been "standard issue". But not to the Tenno. 

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

20 minutes ago, Lakais said:

Even if a few of the primes can be considered "classical" I still would not consider them as standard issue, even to Tenno. Maybe standard issue to those few actual Orokin who fought a bit, but Tenno were NOT Orokin. Orokin Empire was a caste system pushed up to 11 and Tenno were not at the top. And lets be honest, Skana and Lato primes were the FIRST primes introduced, and if I am not mistaken the descriptions have remained unchanged for YEARS, before DE even had any lore ideas what primes are. Those descriptions most likely reference the regular versions. If they were so damn common, we'd still be able to get them. But if we'd explain their scarcity in ingame terms then it's clearly a case of these weapons being rare even at Orokin times. 

I got no problem with Founder Exclusives, I just choose to explain their scarcity in the WF universe through this lens. 

Mag would of stood out no mater what she was made out of. And the Prime Frame Codices are not directly about prime versions. Look at Rhino P's codex, does he look like a raging, man eating monstrosity to you? The golden variants of Frames would of most likely been both as a status symbol to the high ranking Tenno who used it, AND as a statement by the Orokin who bossed the Tenno around, as you put it. We don't know exactly for what the Tenno were used besides fighting the Sentients. We know they also fought the Infestation back in the days and it's also possible they were used to subjugate human colonies to Orokin rule and put down rebellions. Many ways for a Tenno to do something remarkable as far as the Orokin command echelons were concerned. 

So in this regard, the OP might of just been right. To the Orokin themselves, primes would of been "standard issue". But not to the Tenno. 

I doubt the Orokin ever bothered to fight for themselves, and considering what we know about the Orokin and what we can also assume, I doubt they would even consider letting an "average" non-prime Warframe hang out around them, much less bother creating one. No, what I think is that as soon as the Orokin had been destroyed, while still fighting the Infestation in the aftermath of the Old War, the Great Plague, whenever a prime frame was destroyed, the Tenno had no knowledge of how to fix it and as such had to improvise their own versions, something that doesn't use tons of resources and stand out. Since we are space ninjas afterall, and ninjas actually only ever fought with a scarcity of resources and improvised weapons. BTW Rhino Prime's Codex is actually describing the creature within and how primal it is/was without a Tenno controlling it :u

[Noabettiet]

They are called primes, due to there being numerous of copies after the fall of the orokin. Obviously there weren't "named" prime. It is just a "word" in which serves to distinguish from the copies.

And i just realized how stupid all of this convo is. Thank you for your "insight".

Edited July 22, 2016 by Noabettiet
added an extra line

[321agemo]

Its a rather interesting question. The word “Prime” can mean both first or best. If you think about the arrogance of the orokin, it wouldn't be far fetched for them to create something and claim it to be the best weapon of that kind:

 

“this weapon is the prime example of our abilities, the absolute pinnacle. And we shall name thee.... Braton Prime”

 

In regards to why non-prime weapons/warframes exist, it might be less to do with cost but more with “time”.

 

To the orokin, they demanded absolute perfection in their craftmanship, even more so for those that were in their colours.

 

By choosing a simpler design, they could cut production time and get more out. You notice how those modern artsy watches can take like 6 months to make, but a standard watch could be made in under a day? Its just a matter of optimizing your output.

Edited July 22, 2016 by 321agemo

[Lakais]

9 hours ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

I doubt the Orokin ever bothered to fight for themselves, and considering what we know about the Orokin and what we can also assume, I doubt they would even consider letting an "average" non-prime Warframe hang out around them, much less bother creating one. No, what I think is that as soon as the Orokin had been destroyed, while still fighting the Infestation in the aftermath of the Old War, the Great Plague, whenever a prime frame was destroyed, the Tenno had no knowledge of how to fix it and as such had to improvise their own versions, something that doesn't use tons of resources and stand out. Since we are space ninjas afterall, and ninjas actually only ever fought with a scarcity of resources and improvised weapons. BTW Rhino Prime's Codex is actually describing the creature within and how primal it is/was without a Tenno controlling it :u

I am not entirely sure that there really was an "after" to the Orokin high echelon being wiped out as far as Tenno were concerned. Some few might of stuck around but the Tenno at large vanished. At least the Ancient Healer Simaris lore part makes me think that. The lower echelons were left relatively intact, cut off from advanced Orokin tech that was gene-locked to only operate under the control of Orokin officials of certain rank. And I also think that they DID fight or at least were trained and capable of it as the Arid Evicerator Synthesis clearly states that Executor Avastus (basically the highest rank) was armed and had no issues being in a fight nor with the hinted possibility of killing the grineer workers who aided her. 

I still hold by the opinion that Primes were functional medals. WF's equivalent of an AK or an M1, being gold plated or etched with beautiful designs, using expensive redwoods for the furniture and all the metal parts being purpose made and hand-fitted for perfect operation. It's a pretty gun, a very expensive one that most likely will never have a direct copy. And functionally it might even been a bit more reliable then an out of the box mass production model. But you won't equip your elite soldiers who are actually in the field with these. At best you'll see these on honor guards or given as gifts. This is what I think Primes are. They are Orokin mastercrafted variants. And where the weapons mechanically don't seem to work the same way (one being slug, the other apparently projected energy), could simply be explained that someone took the base weapon and took a LOT of artistic liberties with the design. With the name being there just to associate the weapon with the original design. 

On that note, I would actually propose that the standard version came FIRST. Primes came later. And as far as weapons like Braton are concerned, we actually haven't seen an Orokin era standard issue Braton. All we have seen are either Corpus or Prime variants. If I am not mistaken the Burston is getting a visual rework so the standard version looks more "Tenno". If Burston ends up being a Tenno weapon, then that further cements the idea in me that the weapon was developed by Tenno weaponsmiths, and then Primed later. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Lakais

[Apoc001]

28 minutes ago, Lakais said:

But you won't equip your elite soldiers who are actually in the field with these

they did

28 minutes ago, Lakais said:

If Burston ends up being a Tenno weapon, then that further cements the idea in me that the weapon was developed by Tenno weaponsmiths, and then Primed later

Primes always come first, non-primes after, that's how it works in WARFRAME

if a new weapon comes out, and later a prime, then lore explains that that new weapon was based on the Orokin era prime hundreds if not thousands of years ago

whether you choose to see the primes to be too ornamented to be anything more than ceremonial status gifts or not, the facts are that the Orokin were master crafters, not only did they make superior engineered weapons and structures, they were artisans, and decorated their creations with ornate pieces, however unnecessary they look, that was the Orokin style 

 

by the way, the Tenno were Orokin, they were first children of the Orokin Empire before their Void accident, the term Orokin is not exclusive to the higher up leadership 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Apoc001

[Lakais]

45 minutes ago, Apoc001 said:

they did

Primes always come first, non-primes after, that's how it works in WARFRAME

if a new weapon comes out, and later a prime, then lore explains that that new weapon was based on the Orokin era prime hundreds if not thousands of years ago

whether you choose to see the primes to be too ornamented to be anything more than ceremonial status gifts or not, the facts are that the Orokin were master crafters, not only did they make superior engineered weapons and structures, they were artisans, and decorated their creations with ornate pieces, however unnecessary they look, that was the Orokin style 

 

by the way, the Tenno were Orokin, they were first children of the Orokin Empire before their Void accident, the term Orokin is not exclusive to the higher up leadership 

Exactly where is it noted that All the Tenno running around during the Orokin era were made by Dubai fashion designers? 

Primes do NOT come first. You get ANY gun from the market before you get it from a Relic. DE develops and releases Tenno weapons before a Prime version is even a hint on Mynki's sketchbook. If Primes "always came first" then I honestly think WF's lore with regard to Gear lost a LOT of luster for me. It just sounds too simple and boring. Primes LOOK too obnoxiously fancy, too over the top. It's just right for Orokin use. But not for Tenno, who are effectively warrior monks with a dash of mercenary thrown in. Tenno were Orokin's prized attack dogs. The best of these got the prettiest of collars. 

Now it is possible that some weapons were designed and built by Orokin high echelon first, and adopted into Tenno arsenal second. But I would bet 100 plat that if this is the case and the Tenno were required to make more, the first thing they'd do is break off every single not needed golden part and spray-paint the entire thing mate-black. Unless they were fashionistas. Or the golden weapon actually carried a symbolic meaning beyond shooting something dead. Say for example like a gift to show status or honor a feat of some sort. 

If the Tenno were orokin, they were so as citizens, same as you are whatever nationality you are. But people like Ballas were capital O: Orokin. They were effectively Gods in their societal status. The difference in power and authority is just incomprehensible to us in our boring little world. Best comparison would be like Ancient Egypt where Pharaohs were considered to descend directly from the gods. They WERE gods in the eyes of the average citizen. Point I am getting to is to simply use the term "orokin" to describe the everyone from high echelons of the Empire to the Tenno down to the average citizen does not take into account the castes of those times. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Lakais
clarity

[Apoc001]

4 minutes ago, Lakais said:

Primes do NOT come first. You get ANY gun from the market before you get it from a Relic.

completely missed the point

 

4 minutes ago, Lakais said:

Primes always come first, non-primes after, that's how it works in WARFRAME

is true in relation to:

5 minutes ago, Lakais said:

if a new weapon comes out, and later a prime, then lore explains that that new weapon was based on the Orokin era prime hundreds if not thousands of years ago

^this, according to the lore, any weapon, that has a prime variant, is a current era replica of the ancient Orokin era original

 

10 minutes ago, Lakais said:

If the Tenno were orokin, they were so as citizens, same as you are whatever nationality you are. But people like Ballas were capital O: Orokin. They were effectively Gods in their societal status. The difference in power and authority is just incomprehensible to us in our boring little world. Best comparison would be like Ancient Egypt where Pharaohs were considered to decent directly from the gods. They WERE gods in the eyes of the average citizen.

all instances of the word Orokin have the capital O, which makes this:

10 minutes ago, Lakais said:

the term Orokin is not exclusive to the higher up leadership 

valid

 

the Tenno were the last superweapon the empire had, if they failed, the empire would loose, so the Tenno were undoubtedly equipped with the best Warframes and best weapons, which were the goddy gold primes that you find ridiculous

as for everyone else not a Tenno using golden prime weapons, I only see the Grineer soldiers being restricted from using pristine Orokin  firearms, but for what reason would the rest of their infantry not be wielding prime weapons if the over decorated gold was the uniformed style for the Orokin, strained resources? as I said in a previous post, I highly doubt the Orokin were struggling for resources to not be mass producing primes

[Lakais]

1 hour ago, Apoc001 said:

-

You can not convince me that the coat hangers we call primes were in some shape or form "standard issue" to Tenno fighter. It makes no sense for them to be anything other then highly functional ceremonial items or status symbols simply because they make no sense in an actual "meant for field combat" sense. Look at them! Most of them look like snag hazards on steroids. To be honest MOST weapons in the game look the part, but Primes are especially to blame for this. 

Tenno are not Orokin in that you can't put an = mark between them and who the Executors or Sectarus were. Hell! The closest thing Tenno had in Orokin times were Dax! And what little we know of them suggest they were the highly trained regular infantry forces under the Orokin high echelon's command. Regardless of the Tenno being "the last great weapon" used by the Orokin, Tenno were not considered much more then abominable tools. 

I simply do not buy into the "These are our new toys, and they will kill you in style!" argument. Primes well and truly being Orokin era standard issue for Tenno (frames and weapons) just makes them hollow. They'd have no further meaning, no "lore" to attach to them. A Prime being ceremonial or as a mark of achievement gives the item far more "weight" then the alternative. Making them simply "special toys for our special toys" just makes the entire category a dead end in any further development. 

I simply used the small and capital O argument to create a sense of class in the Imperial society of those times. Orokin were the ones ruling, they were the immortal, near godlike rulers of the Empire. They were the king, judge, jury and executioner over everyone else. To simplify this entire concept I used the english way of putting importance on something with either a capital letter or not. Being an orokin was simply you being a citizen of the empire. But to be Orokin, means to rule over orokin. 

Again, I ask you to point me in a direction that clearly states ingame that all Primes come before standard version. The Mag in Mag P's codex entry could of very well been a high ranking Tenno. It does not invalidate my theory. Wyrm P's description clearly states that it was used by High Ranking Tenno as a bodyguard and as a status symbol. Spira prime was used by high ranking Orokin assassins (not necessarily Tenno). All the Prime descriptions I read, paint to me a picture of Orokin or in some cases Tenno artisans creating masterworks. That Primes are not mass produced. They were forged by craftsmen. The ones that allude to a "general purpose" are on old items. In fact you brought up Lato Prime before but you didn't repeat the WHOLE description "The Lato is a highly accurate pistol used by the Tenno everywhere. Prime model offers slightly increased damage." That's the full description as seen on the wiki as I don't have it in the game. Same goes for the Skana Prime. And even Braton Prime's description says about what it offers over the standard model. 

The ONLY direct reference of a Prime being developed before a standard version is that of Ankyros Prime "This Orokin variation of the Ankyros is superior to its successor in every way." Note successor, stating that the standard version is either based off of it, or was otherwise used to replace the superior version. Maybe the Orokin weren't as rich as we might think.

And the strange case of Dakra Prime that does not have a standard version. But I believe that the weapon was simply renamed from Cronus Prime as when the weapon was introduced, that's what it was called in game files. 

[Apoc001]

1 hour ago, Lakais said:

You can not convince me that the coat hangers we call primes were in some shape or form "standard issue" to Tenno fighter

I don't have to convince you,  it's there, if you refuse to see it then that's all on you, but the facts remain the same

Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are actual pieces of Ancient Orokin technology

Non-Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are based on Orokin technology, however they are not genuine Orokin articles. - https://warframe.com/news/primes-and-prime-access

Edited July 22, 2016 by Apoc001

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

5 hours ago, Lakais said:

-snip-

And again, there are two instances in Codex entries where Prime Warframes saw open combat against the Sentient and Infestation! Hell, even the Rhino Prime Codex entry describes the rampaging monster as a Prime. The Prime weapons are the originals, everything else spawned from then on (Braton, Burston, Sicarus, etc.) is inferior because it came after. The Orokin never shared their secrets, and they died with them

Edited July 22, 2016 by 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

1 hour ago, Lakais said:

I simply do not buy into the "These are our new toys, and they will kill you in style!" argument. Primes well and truly being Orokin era standard issue for Tenno (frames and weapons) just makes them hollow. They'd have no further meaning, no "lore" to attach to them. A Prime being ceremonial or as a mark of achievement gives the item far more "weight" then the alternative. Making them simply "special toys for our special toys" just makes the entire category a dead end in any further development. 

 

You pretty much hit it on the head right there bud. The Orokin were hollow and vain creatures, there is no further meaning to it

[Apoc001]

18 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Hell, even the Rhino Prime Codex entry describes the rampaging monster as a Prime.

I don't know about that, thats kinda stretching it

[BornWithTeeth]

22 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

And again, there are two instances in Codex entries where Prime Warframes saw open combat against the Sentient and Infestation! Hell, even the Rhino Prime Codex entry describes the rampaging monster as a Prime. The Prime weapons are the originals, everything else spawned from then on (Braton, Burston, Sicarus, etc.) is inferior because it came after. The Orokin never shared their secrets, and they died with them

 

3 minutes ago, Apoc001 said:

I don't know about that, thats kinda stretching it

Yeah, the Rhino Prime Codex doesn't even explicitly describe that monster as a Warframe.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

18 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

 

Yeah, the Rhino Prime Codex doesn't even explicitly describe that monster as a Warframe.

It's VERY strongly implied, the monster even uses Iron Skin and Charge:  The hulking mass, flickering red, glinting like steel and fresh blood. Its skin changes, flowing like mercury when I'm blinded by the sudden muzzle-flashes. They do no good. The beast surges forward and the security men become crimson mist and gore. 

I don't see why it's soo hard to accept that the Primes were the first and original frames to be built, because the Orokin were just that vain and full of themselves?

[Apoc001]

25 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

It's VERY strongly implied, the monster even uses Iron Skin and Charge:  The hulking mass, flickering red, glinting like steel and fresh blood. Its skin changes, flowing like mercury when I'm blinded by the sudden muzzle-flashes. They do no good. The beast surges forward and the security men become crimson mist and gore. 

I don't see why it's soo hard to accept that the Primes were the first and original frames to be built, because the Orokin were just that vain and full of themselves?

Its not that it's hard to accept that Primes were the first, there is no question about that, it's more were Warframes the first act of transference

cause to me, the Rhino Prime codex is portrayed is that the 2 in the story were working on something else, many have speculated that the beast was perhaps an infested, based on the description, and that this was likely the first act of transference

because to build surrogate bodies for the purpose of transference, you first need to know of the concept of it, to know that the Tenno could transfer their mind and powers before you build the Warframes 

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

8 minutes ago, Apoc001 said:

Its not that it's hard to accept that Primes were the first, there is no question about that, it's more were Warframes the first act of transference

cause to me, the Rhino Prime codex is portrayed is that the 2 in the story were working on something else, many have speculated that the beast was perhaps an infested, based on the description, and that this was likely the first act of transference

because to build surrogate bodies for the purpose of transference, you first need to know of the concept of it, to know that the Tenno could transfer their mind and powers before you build the Warframes 

Well it's sorta common knowledge in the majority of the community now a days that the Warframes are infested cyborg golems we Tenno use to keep us from dying :u The Orokin were experts at biology, no doubt Margulis figured out how to channel the void power real fast

Edited July 22, 2016 by 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4

[Apoc001]

2 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Warframes are infested cyborg golems

I argue all the time about this being common knowledge, I openly reject this theory, because there is really nothing to support it( Lephantis and Phorid quotes are outdated, recycled old J-3 Golem quotes, they will not support it, new J-3 says the same thing along the lines but says "Like Flesh", but not the same, all flowers are alike, but they are not the same)

not to mention, as you said, the Orokin were master geneticist, genetic, fleshy material was not limited to the Infested, you have the Grineer, the Lorist, the Crewmen, all artificially bred, so it's not hard to see the possibility that Warframes are also created with a synthetic flesh-like compound 

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

17 minutes ago, Apoc001 said:

I argue all the time about this being common knowledge, I openly reject this theory, because there is really nothing to support it( Lephantis and Phorid quotes are outdated, recycled old J-3 Golem quotes, they will not support it, new J-3 says the same thing along the lines but says "Like Flesh", but not the same, all flowers are alike, but they are not the same)

not to mention, as you said, the Orokin were master geneticist, genetic, fleshy material was not limited to the Infested, you have the Grineer, the Lorist, the Crewmen, all artificially bred, so it's not hard to see the possibility that Warframes are also created with a synthetic flesh-like compound 

Which is the Infestation. The lore surrounding the Infestation is actually wrong, based on something that was never updated as more other lore was added into the game, it's not like the Orokin released it in hopes of it doing anything against the Sentients, considering they were the ones who built them and should realize they'd just adapt. It's more like the Sentients destroyed some place were Warframes were being made, and that released the Technocyte which grew into the Infestation. Hell, look at ingredients for a Warframe, we use Infested (Technocyte) bits and pieces along with mechanical parts .3.

Also, the Mutalist strain is new, made by Salad V when he was @(*()$ around with the Infestation

Edited July 22, 2016 by 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4

[Lakais]

So little imagination here... 

[Apoc001]

1 minute ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Hell, look at ingredients for a Warframe, we use Infested (Technocyte) bits and pieces along with mechanical parts .3.

Oberon doesn't use anything Infested related(stop bringing technocyte into Warframe it doesn't belong >:(, all instances of the Infestation being referenced have always been called "Infestation"......with the single exception of a really old resource description), so the "Warframes are made of infested flesh based on built requirements" theory is not accurate

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

4 minutes ago, Apoc001 said:

Oberon doesn't use anything Infested related(stop bringing technocyte into Warframe it doesn't belong >:(, all instances of the Infestation being referenced have always been called "Infestation"......with the single exception of a really old resource description), so the "Warframes are made of infested flesh based on built requirements" theory is not accurate

Actually I'm pretty sure DE even said that they just re-used the Technocyte virus from their first game in Warframe. Also, Oberon uses two Orokin Cells in his construction, guess what's used to make Orokin Cells? Oberon by far has the least infested tissue to him though