Loki balance

[(PSN)Azure_King03]

1 minute ago, armedpoop said:

Yeah, screw over everyone's Loki builds by making literally only one ability scale off of strength, right? It wouldnt make any sense. 

Pretty much, I wonder if they would also want that to effect all other CC frames too, nyx, nova, frost ect.

[armedpoop]

Just now, (PS4)Azure_King03 said:

Pretty much, I wonder if they would also want that to effect all other CC frames too, nyx, nova, frost ect.

im sure at some point those CC abilities would also become "too strong" so yeah probably. Ill never understand why we need to nerf something that does what its supposed to do, at least with CC. 

[(PSN)Azure_King03]

1 minute ago, armedpoop said:

im sure at some point those CC abilities would also become "too strong" so yeah probably. Ill never understand why we need to nerf something that does what its supposed to do, at least with CC. 

DE is almost done nerfing all the good damage abilities, time to move onto CC I guess, probably be tanks after that.

[(XBOX)Twinna25]

22 hours ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Loki is definitely Overpowered but nothing will happen to him because 90% of the people on this forum main Loki. Limbo was just like Loki at one point(except Limbo was superior), but he got the biggest nerf of all the frames(because he was superior to Loki) its ok for him to cross in to Ash and Nyx territory but no one can touch Loki's territory forum logic). Its ok for Loki to hack and carry stuff while invisible(as well as kill without consequence) but its not ok for Limbo. Makes zero sense, but hey, welcome to Warframe forums self.

 

All the main frames(Loki, Nova, Vauban, Trinity, Frost, Valkyr) need a nerf but they wont receive it. Meanwhile all the dps frames are being ruined because they are doing their job. And its mainly because of people who main the main frames, aka the people who use these forums the most.

Limbo wasn't nerfed for that though, and keep in mind that Limbo is still a very viable frame for a different reason than Loki. Loki is used for CC, while his invisability counters the fact that he tends to go down in a gentle breeze otherwise. But unlike Limbo, Loki is still affected by AoE attacks and can't help other players with it. Unlike say, Limbo who can make the entire team invulnerable while still able to kill with their abilities. This makes Limbo and Ash a laughable effective combination, especially as the rift's energy gain allows him to keep up bladestorm more, and he is still protected while out of Bladestorm.

 

Also, you list what are seen as some of the more mainstream frames yes, then say DPS frames are ruined? Haven't you ever seen a Ember stroll casually through a T1-4 exterminate with the ease of a volt running through any other mission? Haven't you ever seen an equinox deal over a million damage with maim? Or an Ash wipe out half the map just by looking at somebody else funny? Volt's crowd control now is through the roof, and he still has Electric shield's damage boost as well as Speed. Mirage with Synoid simulor is never running out and can easily lock down an large area by causing an enemy to get one-hit each time that they touch an orb that is spammed. Saryn as well can easily proc viral on enemies, and is ruthlessly effective with it. Do i need to continue to prove my point, or should i stop now? Oh, Banshee lets you hit the damage cap in a way that makes Sonar rediculously effective, and still has pretty great cc,

I also detest your idea of the community selectively maining specific frames to make them dominant, which is apparently a forum wide conspiracy, as that is an utterly stupid idea. DPS frames have a large flaw however admittedly, which is rather simple...a handful of them have little scaling, with some of them being almost overpowered if they do. 

 

Also trust me, 90% of the forums do not main Loki or any other frame. Although since i feel this is an inevitable question used in defence of your (biased) argument...i don't have a main, i have about 50% on Valkyr, Excalibur, Frost, Loki, Mirage and then most of my time experimenting with different warframes and builds, mostly failing trying to get Oberon to not suck have a decent build.

[Lichcontract]

Why do people always want nerfs to frames instead of a rework to scaling of enemies? As it stands now Loki will get killed very fast at any level beyond 50 regardless of invis (drahk and hyekka can smell you through invis, nullies disable your disarm and invis all together, body bumping alerts the entire room to your position and you get aimboted).

If you're playing that frame to their strengths for example Loki, the enemies should never see you or be able to hit you (the entire reason for decoy is to distract from you so they never hit, radial disarm so they can never hit, invisibility so they never see, switch tp so they can never hit) he is all about deception because he is so squishy the whole point of Loki is to never get seen, heard (old invis used to silence weapons too) or hit if played correctly.

The fact you want to nerf his only function means you're not thinking about scaling and damage at all. He's one of the few frames that actually scales well into lategame and even that gets messed up since a bunch of late game enemies can either dispel his abilities (nullies) or sense him while invis (hyekka and drahk) which pretty much screws his entire point.

Sure Loki needs a look over but that's to buff his other abilities (decoy gets one-shot in mid to high levels so that needs scaling) and switch teleport is situational mobility anyway. The only 2 abilities that make him who he is and actually able to be a viable frame are balanced and don't need you to prance on about how you think he's OP without addressing the main issue of enemy scaling first.

[Kitzun]

Why not have all disarmed enemies use damageless grappling hooks like scorpions and ancients ?

It would not affect decent Loki players (because invis) and it would not affect people under a snowglobe either.

Of course there is an enormous potential for trolling with this one but at least it will be fun.

[Cenat]

1 hour ago, armedpoop said:

Yeah, screw over everyone's Loki builds by making literally only one ability scale off of strength, right? It wouldnt make any sense. 

If makes people think twice before putting Overextended

[Cenat]

2 minutes ago, Kitzun said:

Why not have all disarmed enemies use damageless grappling hooks like scorpions and ancients ?

It would not affect decent Loki players (because invis) and it would not affect people under a snowglobe either.

Of course there is an enormous potential for trolling with this one but at least it will be fun.

Cool but it can be a potential threat for other players, like you said

[Cenat]

19 minutes ago, Lichcontract said:

Why do people always want nerfs to frames instead of a rework to scaling of enemies? As it stands now Loki will get killed very fast at any level beyond 50 regardless of invis (drahk and hyekka can smell you through invis, nullies disable your disarm and invis all together, body bumping alerts the entire room to your position and you get aimboted).

If you're playing that frame to their strengths for example Loki, the enemies should never see you or be able to hit you (the entire reason for decoy is to distract from you so they never hit, radial disarm so they can never hit, invisibility so they never see, switch tp so they can never hit) he is all about deception because he is so squishy the whole point of Loki is to never get seen, heard (old invis used to silence weapons too) or hit if played correctly.

The fact you want to nerf his only function means you're not thinking about scaling and damage at all. He's one of the few frames that actually scales well into lategame and even that gets messed up since a bunch of late game enemies can either dispel his abilities (nullies) or sense him while invis (hyekka and drahk) which pretty much screws his entire point.

Sure Loki needs a look over but that's to buff his other abilities (decoy gets one-shot in mid to high levels so that needs scaling) and switch teleport is situational mobility anyway. The only 2 abilities that make him who he is and actually able to be a viable frame are balanced and don't need you to prance on about how you think he's OP without addressing the main issue of enemy scaling first.

Scaling and cheesing are very different

This will render any enemy no matter their level useless at range

[Cenat]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Well any frame can be OP when played by skilled players, so your argument is invalid.

Again, its an invalid argument, were talking bout loki, especially the RD aug. And Youre bringing other frames here, any frame can be OP if theyre not alone.

He was talking about level 1000+

 

I am talking 60-100. That was an example for 1000+

[Kitzun]

2 minutes ago, Cenat said:

Cool but it can be a potential threat for other players, like you said

Then that will be a reason to have another Exilus slot on frames, one for Rush on the right of the aura and one for Handspring on the left of the aura, that will be prettier on the modding screen.

[Lichcontract]

2 minutes ago, Cenat said:

Scaling and cheesing are very different

This will render any enemy no matter their level useless at range

That's the entire point of frames with damage reduction as well though. If you want to nerf Loki's ability to stay alive then you should nerf Chroma, Mesa, Mirage, Equinox and any frame that has a method to survive. Since there is no point in giving frames abilities to use to keep themselves safe since playing to a frames specific strengths is all cheese to you.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

11 minutes ago, Cenat said:

He was talking about level 1000+

 

I am talking 60-100. That was an example for 1000+

So? OP frame is an OP frame...no matter what levels on enemies.

If youre saying "Oh, its level 1000+, so my OP frame is not OP anymore...*sob*" then clearly youre implying that OP-ness has a limit, therefore a frame can be OP only on a specific TIME, SITUATION & MISSION TYPE. Thats not OP at all...thats intended, as in "every frame has its own strength & weakness"

Edited July 26, 2016 by (PS4)ATreidezz

[Eldnacpeek]

Please refer to this question: Why? You're not giving any reasons, you're just proposing a complete nerf.

[Lichcontract]

2 hours ago, Cenat said:

-Snip-

I am chill lmao it's a valid point. Do you want frames with abilities to stay alive? Then Loki is balanced. Do you want all frames to never have abilities used to keep them safe? Then every frame is imbalanced

[armedpoop]

37 minutes ago, Cenat said:

If makes people think twice before putting Overextended

Why should they have to on a frame whose entire kit doesnt use pwr str?

19 minutes ago, Lichcontract said:

I am chill lmao it's a valid point. Do you want frames with abilities to stay alive? Then Loki is balanced. Do you want all frames to never have abilities used to keep them safe? Then every frame is imbalanced

Dont worry, (trigger warning) is code language for "I really dont have a response for you so have this instead". OP has no clue what a discussion is. 

[WrathAscending]

1 hour ago, armedpoop said:

Yeah, screw over everyone's Loki builds by making literally only one ability scale off of strength, right? It wouldnt make any sense. 

Loki is the only Warframe in the game that can completely tank a Power parameter with absolutely no impact on his utility or survivability.

None of the others can do that. Tanking Power Strength on other Warframes has a consequence. And that's on top of largely being able to tank Power Range because the Invisibility duration is generally more desirable.

If Radial Disarm had a % chance equal to Power Strength the only thing Loki players would have to do is add a Transient Fortitude to overcome the reduction from Overextended, or remove Overextended for something else (like Stretch, or Cunning Drift which has the same Polarity, or Constitution, or...)

[--Licht--]

Instead of complaining about bs, we should ask DE for a downvote button.

I'd love to downvote the OP. This thread is ridiculous...

 

Edit: Even the Tonkor nerf thread is better than this!

Edited July 26, 2016 by -S-I-L-V-E-R-

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Just now, WrathAscending said:

Loki is the only Warframe in the game that can completely tank a Power parameter with absolutely no impact on his utility or survivability.

Tell me, which one of loki's power designed as dps? Damage resistancy? Buffer?

If its not designed to kill nor to increase survivabilty nor to buff, then why need power strength?

Invisible doesnt increase damage resistance (aka not survivability)

[Golmihr]

The problem isn't with RD as much as it is with the end game power creep going in a direction where everything are bullet sponges that can one-shot you and so players feel the only viable options are abilities that are cheesy.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Golmihr

[WrathAscending]

Just now, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Tell me, which one of loki's power designed as dps? Damage resistancy? Buffer?

If its not designed to kill nor to increase survivabilty nor to buff, then why need power strength?

Invisible doesnt increase damage resistance (aka not survivability)

Radial Disarm is a pretty obvious party buff, by completely mangling the enemy's usual plan of attack if not an increase to stats.

[armedpoop]

5 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Loki is the only Warframe in the game that can completely tank a Power parameter with absolutely no impact on his utility or survivability.

None of the others can do that. Tanking Power Strength on other Warframes has a consequence. And that's on top of largely being able to tank Power Range because the Invisibility duration is generally more desirable.

This is simply untrue. 

Hydroid can tanke power str and all his CC is still just as good

Inaros can also tank power str and all his abilities still perform just as well

Nyx doesnt need power str and all her CC is still amazing

Limbo doesnt need power str either and his CC is still amazing.

Mesa can Dump range and 3 of her 4 abilities would still be amazing. 

There are even more frames that can completely tank other stats and STILL be extremely viable, even certain DPS frames. 

 

Adding power str to disarm serves literally no purpose. I have yet to see anybody propose an actual change that makes the ability do something guaranteed in exchange for losing the 100% chance to disarm. Why would you ever advocate to an ultimate ability to have a chance to do literally NOTHING on cast? Especially one with such a long cast time.

[Kitzun]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

If its not designed to kill nor to increase survivabilty nor to buff, then why need power strength?

Easy to imagine advantages with power strength.

Decoy: increase decoy HPs

Invisibility: increase stealth damage multiplier

Switch Teleport: have a short speed bonus on loki after he tp to better extract himself, power strength increases the speed bonus amount

Radial Disarm: I'm not sure if a "chance to disarm or not" is a good thing here

Here you have it, on at least 3 of the skills power strength could be relevant easily, as I thought about it from the top of my head.

 

And Invisibility does increase survivability because it makes you untargetable, it's like the godmode we got for the tennocon potato.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Kitzun

[Nox_Terminus]

Loki's kit is designed around staying in stealth and disarming/blinding enemies for your team when necessary. RD is his only directly useful ability in a squad. Leave it be.

[armedpoop]

2 minutes ago, Kitzun said:

Easy to imagine advantages with power strength.

Decoy: increase decoy HPs

Invisibility: increase stealth damage multiplier

Switch Teleport: have a short speed bonus on loki after he tp to better extract himself, power strength increases the speed bonus amount

Radial Disarm: I'm not sure if a "chance to disarm or not" is a good thing here

Here you have it, on at least 3 of the skills power strength could be relevant easily, as I thought about it from the top of my head.

 

And Invisibility does increase survivability because it makes you untargetable, it's like the godmode we got for the tennocon potato.

No, it isnt at all. I agree with everything you say up until this point. Invis isnt anywhere near that strong, especially in squad play. 

 

I think you are the 1st person here to actually do this, make changes to other abilities as well to fit the new need of power str on his 4. Though his 4 needs to have a constant thing done in addition to the chance of disarm happening, IF they are gonna make it a chance to disarm.