Loki balance

[Nox_Terminus]

5 minutes ago, Kitzun said:

Invisibility: increase stealth damage multiplier

Power Strength does not improve his stealth damage multiplier.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Nox_Terminus

[WrathAscending]

1 hour ago, armedpoop said:

This is simply untrue. 

Hydroid can tanke power str and all his CC is still just as good

Inaros can also tank power str and all his abilities still perform just as well

Nyx doesnt need power str and all her CC is still amazing

Limbo doesnt need power str either and his CC is still amazing.

Mesa can Dump range and 3 of her 4 abilities would still be amazing. 

There are even more frames that can completely tank other stats and STILL be extremely viable, even certain DPS frames. 

 

Adding power str to disarm serves literally no purpose. I have yet to see anybody propose an actual change that makes the ability do something guaranteed in exchange for losing the 100% chance to disarm. Why would you ever advocate to an ultimate ability to have a chance to do literally NOTHING on cast? Especially one with such a long cast time.

Hydroid's Crowd Control is unreliable at best. Tempest Barrage frequently misses enemies, as does Tentacle Swarm.

Nyx relies on Power Strength if she wants to do anything but Chaos since it effects Mind Control and Absorb.

Limbo is getting a rework because of the way his powers work. The best that can be said is that he can 1v1 enemies any time he wants, or evade all damage.

Mesa can trade Range for Duration but still needs Power to survive or kill.

Loki is unique for being able to throw a bunch of stats down the drain with little to no effect yet still retaining guaranteed crowd control and survivability.

I'd say being able to force the enemy to come to you, unable to use their ranged weapons at all, is pretty significant. Especially given the AoE damage of enemies like Bombards or the firepower high-level enemies have.

Especially given Loki's favoured hunting ground before Starchart 2.0 was Void Defence missions where a Frost was covering the pod with a Chilling Globe, or Void Survivals where the squad was covered by a similar ability.

[WrathAscending]

3 minutes ago, Nox_Terminus said:

Loki's kit is designed around staying in stealth and disarming/blinding enemies for your team when necessary. RD is his only directly useful ability in a squad. Leave it be.

Radial Disarm still needs a few tweaks.

Irradiating Disarm needs to go. It mimics Chaos and Nyx's passive all in one, and Chaos is the only reason to take Nyx any way.

Radial Disarm also needs a timer on the disarm, since currently it permanently disarms the opponent. I know it's a 4th power so there could be a fairly lengthy timer, like 30 seconds, applied but making it infinite is a bit much.

I would also increase the aggro draw and HP on Decoy while I was at it, and in getting rid of Irradiating Disarm I'd swap it for Explosive Decoy to make the Decoy blow up when destroyed or its duration expires. Then there's some synergy between Decoy and Radial Disarm- drop the Decoy, wait for enemies to start to move towards it, hit them with Disarm so they rush up to poke it with sticks, kaboom.

[(PSN)Azure_King03]

3 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Hydroid's Crowd Control is unreliable at best. Tempest Barrage frequently misses enemies, as does Tentacle Swarm.

Nyx relies on Power Strength if she wants to do anything but Chaos since it effects Mind Control and Absorb.

Limbo is getting a rework because of the way his powers work. The best that can be said is that he can 1v1 enemies any time he wants, or evade all damage.

Mesa can trade Range for Duration but still needs Power to survive or kill.

Loki is unique for being able to throw a bunch of stats down the drain with little to no effect yet still retaining guaranteed crowd control and survivability.

Yeah, it's not like being able to force the enemy to fight on your turns is of any benefit to a squad.

Especially given Loki's favoured hunting ground before Starchart 2.0 was Void Defence missions where a Frost was covering the pod with a Chilling Globe, or Void Survivals where the squad was covered by a similar ability.

I find it interesting that you skipped inaros, but I guess that would make your only loki can do it argument false...

Lots of frames tank power str, hell I even drop it low on a few damage frames...

[Kitzun]

3 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

No, it isnt at all. I agree with everything you say up until this point. Invis isnt anywhere near that strong, especially in squad play. 

 

I think you are the 1st person here to actually do this, make changes to other abilities as well to fit the new need of power str on his 4. Though his 4 needs to have a constant thing done in addition to the chance of disarm happening, IF they are gonna make it a chance to disarm. 

Ah you have to be aware of your surroundings and play well your frame, but that's all frames and not only Loki; invisibility is not intangibility, your are stil in a line of fire and it's up to you to move away from it.

And I'm not sure Disarm need some tweaking, it's a 4, it cost 100 power, if anything it's disarmed enemies that are too weak because they loose their range capacity, see my above proposition in this topic to do something about that.

But it would sure be much funnier to build a frame if all abilities had the potential to be tweaked with any of the 4 power stats, instead of some obvious and boring-through-overuse builds.

[WrathAscending]

Just now, (PS4)Azure_King03 said:

I find it interesting that you skipped inaros, but I guess that would make your only loki can do it argument false...

Lots of frames tank power str, hell I even drop it low on a few damage frames...

To be strictly fair to Inaros he does need that since he doesn't have Shields. He's extremely reliant on enemies not being able to target him for his survivability and has no innate invisibility, while his damage isn't really that great any way. Different situation to Loki entirely.

[armedpoop]

20 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Hydroid's Crowd Control is unreliable at best. Tempest Barrage frequently misses enemies, as does Tentacle Swarm.

Nyx relies on Power Strength if she wants to do anything but Chaos since it effects Mind Control and Absorb.

Limbo is getting a rework because of the way his powers work. The best that can be said is that he can 1v1 enemies any time he wants, or evade all damage.

Mesa can trade Range for Duration but still needs Power to survive or kill.

Loki is unique for being able to throw a bunch of stats down the drain with little to no effect yet still retaining guaranteed crowd control and survivability.

You dont even understand the mechanics of the abilities in question, a simple glance at mind control on the wiki will tell you that pwr str does nothing to it, as well as the fact that all str does for Absorb* is increase the damage of absorb, yet without it the CC remains the same. (why would you ever build nyx for damage???)

Another glance at the wiki would tell you that lowered range will make hydroid's 1 and 4 more "concentrated" with lowered range (or not adding any range to begin with) thus making his CC good with 1 to 2 dump stats. You are also completely ignoring the fact that puddle is extremely powerful against infested in defense game modes and it requires NO str to reliably CC them. 

We are talking about the here and now Limbo, the one that doesnt need power str to completely stop ally's from taking damage, by either putting enemies in the rifr, or the ally themself.

Mesa can dump range or duration all together, she was just an example of the many frames who can still be useful while having dump stats. 

literally inaros can dump a bunch of stats and still have good survivability and be useful. 

So you are just gonna dance over the fact that Loki isnt the only frame that can do what you said huh? Alright, I guess were done here.

Edited July 26, 2016 by armedpoop

[armedpoop]

Just now, WrathAscending said:

To be strictly fair to Inaros he does need that since he doesn't have Shields. He's extremely reliant on enemies not being able to target him for his survivability and has no innate invisibility, while his damage isn't really that great any way. Different situation to Loki entirely.

Inaros can survive with enemies seeing him, you are wrong again, guy. Inaros literally dump all his stats if you want to go for a melee build. He heals on doing counter attack finishers, and can boost his armor for the cost of HP(neither of these are based on pwr str AT ALL). His survivability relies on keeping your massive health pool massive, not enemies not being able to target him. Yeah he doesnt have shields, but has one of the biggest EHP pools in the game, shields are a non issue. 

[(PSN)Azure_King03]

1 minute ago, WrathAscending said:

To be strictly fair to Inaros he does need that since he doesn't have Shields. He's extremely reliant on enemies not being able to target him for his survivability and has no innate invisibility, while his damage isn't really that great any way. Different situation to Loki entirely.

I am slightly confused on your wording, do you mean that he needs power str or he needs the ability to be able to lower str and still be just as good?  

I am assuming you are talking about his survivability in very high level content because inaros is pretty much invincible in standard content(I consider t4 60 min survival and sorties to be standard content)

[Nox_Terminus]

4 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Hydroid's Crowd Control is unreliable at best. Tempest Barrage frequently misses enemies, as does Tentacle Swarm.

Nyx relies on Power Strength if she wants to do anything but Chaos since it effects Mind Control and Absorb.

Limbo is getting a rework because of the way his powers work. The best that can be said is that he can 1v1 enemies any time he wants, or evade all damage.

Mesa can trade Range for Duration but still needs Power to survive or kill.

Loki is unique for being able to throw a bunch of stats down the drain with little to no effect yet still retaining guaranteed crowd control and survivability.

Hydroid is currently one of, if not THE, weakest frames in the game. Using him as an example is rather moot.

Nyx is one of the older frames, and is in need of some buffs. Her CC has been made obsolete by frames with large AoE burst damage abilities.

Limbo is one of the weirdest frames in the game, even the dev's don't seem to know what to do. He can make roving defense targets immune to enemy attacks though.

Mesa I honestly haven't seen used enough to give an opinion on.

I find it odd you don't list other frames, which are consistently the only thing you see in endless missions. For example EV trin, Frost, Vauban, RJ Excal, etc. Loki is rarely asked for, because his only really effective skill in a squad situation is his 4. invisibility is possible with certain sentinels or companions, or with Ivara, who can literally just throw invisibility around the map at ease. Other CC frames have far more flexibility or outright damage to mitigate not being able to disarm enemies ,whereas RD doesn't do jack versus machines or infested. Also Irradiating Disarm is inferior to Oberon's slam-jam, in that it not only lifts and slams them down, it irradiates them and blinds them, and it does some damage albeit minimal compared to moving Nukes like Nova or Mirage.

If Loki's 4 was really as OP as you seem to think it is, everyone and their grandmother would be asking for a Loki for their squads.

[Kitzun]

As a last word on the topic and to be only fair power strength already affects Radial Disarm, it also inflicts damage on cast even if is token damage.

But it also can be crazy dumb/powerful, like being usable on melee infested or totaly disposing of ospreys, it has many perks for how straightforward it is.

It's too simple for such benefits imo.

[Deskhon]

Honestly, why would you do radial disarm be reliant on strength? Do we have any range mods other than overextended, cunning drift and stretch? Without a good range and without a guaranteed disarm, he would be useless. Considering that you will also have to build for strength, you will say goodbye to duration and efficiency, making loki a cripple.

[(PSN)Azure_King03]

2 minutes ago, Nox_Terminus said:

Hydroid is currently one of, if not THE, weakest frames in the game. Using him as an example is rather moot.

Nyx is one of the older frames, and is in need of some buffs. Her CC has been made obsolete by frames with large AoE burst damage abilities.

Limbo is one of the weirdest frames in the game, even the dev's don't seem to know what to do. He can make roving defense targets immune to enemy attacks though.

Mesa I honestly haven't seen used enough to give an opinion on.

I find it odd you don't list other frames, which are consistently the only thing you see in endless missions. For example EV trin, Frost, Vauban, RJ Excal, etc. Loki is rarely asked for, because his only really effective skill in a squad situation is his 4. invisibility is possible with certain sentinels or companions, or with Ivara, who can literally just throw invisibility around the map at ease. Other CC frames have far more flexibility or outright damage to mitigate not being able to disarm enemies ,whereas RD doesn't do jack versus machines or infested. Also Irradiating Disarm is inferior to Oberon's slam-jam, in that it not only lifts and slams them down, it irradiates them and blinds them, and it does some damage albeit minimal compared to moving Nukes like Nova or Mirage.

If Loki's 4 was really as OP as you seem to think it is, everyone and their grandmother would be asking for a Loki for their squads.

He was replying to a different person who listed those frames

But your argument is correct, most of those frames and many frames in general gimped one of their stats to make a certain build very good, EV trin has terrible duration making two of her better skills really bad, frost cripples his duration since it no longer affect the bubble, vauban usually tanks power str for range ect.

[Nox_Terminus]

6 minutes ago, Deskhon said:

Honestly, why would you do radial disarm be reliant on strength? Do we have any range mods other than overextended, cunning drift and stretch? Without a good range and without a guaranteed disarm, he would be useless. Considering that you will also have to build for strength, you will say goodbye to duration and efficiency, making loki a cripple.

I have to agree. Loki doesn't require power strength, but does require duration, he requires shields because his HP is garbage, and if you're maxing on RD for CC you need range, that's 3 stats he has to bump to be "effective" according to certain people.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Nox_Terminus
typos

[armedpoop]

3 minutes ago, Nox_Terminus said:

Hydroid is currently one of, if not THE, weakest frames in the game. Using him as an example is rather moot.

Nyx is one of the older frames, and is in need of some buffs. Her CC has been made obsolete by frames with large AoE burst damage abilities.

Limbo is one of the weirdest frames in the game, even the dev's don't seem to know what to do. He can make roving defense targets immune to enemy attacks though.

Mesa I honestly haven't seen used enough to give an opinion on.

I find it odd you don't list other frames, which are consistently the only thing you see in endless missions. For example EV trin, Frost, Vauban, RJ Excal, etc. Loki is rarely asked for, because his only really effective skill in a squad situation is his 4. invisibility is possible with certain sentinels or companions, or with Ivara, who can literally just throw invisibility around the map at ease. Other CC frames have far more flexibility or outright damage to mitigate not being able to disarm enemies ,whereas RD doesn't do jack versus machines or infested. Also Irradiating Disarm is inferior to Oberon's slam-jam, in that it not only lifts and slams them down, it irradiates them and blinds them, and it does some damage albeit minimal compared to moving Nukes like Nova or Mirage.

If Loki's 4 was really as OP as you seem to think it is, everyone and their grandmother would be asking for a Loki for their squads.

Im the one that listed those frames off, so ill respond to your points. These were just a list frames that could CC without needing pwr str to be effective CC machines. 

How is it moot to use a frame that you deem "the weakest in the game" moot? You dismiss it based on pre formulated opinions? 

Saying that Nyx's CC is obsolete due to other AoE damage abilities completely misses the point of why she was listed. (also if damage abilities make CC pointless, why does it matter? this whole idea that "killing is the best CC" makes no sense to me)

Limbo still can do his job with complete disregard for power str

I agree, that RD isnt OP, however. 

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

37 minutes ago, Kitzun said:

Easy to imagine advantages with power strength.

Decoy: increase decoy HPs

Invisibility: increase stealth damage multiplier

Switch Teleport:have a short speed bonus on loki after he tp to better extract himself, power strength increases the speed bonus amount

And Invisibility does increase survivability because it makes you untargetable, it's like the godmode we got for the tennocon potato.

None of this is true...check the wiki for loki abilities maximizations...

Invisibility doesnt protect you from stray bullets, eximus aura (drain, electric, poisons, fire explosion) or environmental hazards. 

27 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Radial Disarm still needs a few tweaks.

Irradiating Disarm needs to go. It mimics Chaos and Nyx's passive all in one, and Chaos is the only reason to take Nyx any way.

Radial Disarm also needs a timer on the disarm, since currently it permanently disarms the opponent. I know it's a 4th power so there could be a fairly lengthy timer, like 30 seconds, applied but making it infinite is a bit much.

Alot of people have requested to make decoy scale with levels of enemies,  Disarmed high level enemies can still one hit loki & radiation proc augment only last 9 seconds while nyx chaos can last more than 50 seconds...

Why do you hate loki so much though? The only possible cause this thread exist is bcos someone is:

A] hate loki

B] bait

Its definitely not bcos youre a pro (or at least experienced player) that you understand which frame is OP & which one isnt, bcos if you do, you wont post a false argument & facts about loki being OP.

[WrathAscending]

11 minutes ago, Nox_Terminus said:

If Loki's 4 was really as OP as you seem to think it is, everyone and their grandmother would be asking for a Loki for their squads.

They were. Irradiating Disarm Loki was one of the most-requested frames in non-Draco endless Recruitment messages.

The reason it's dropped off on PC is because there's so much less incentive to play Endless missions now that Prime acquisition has changed.

3 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

Im the one that listed those frames off, so ill respond to your points. These were just a list frames that could CC without needing pwr str to be effective CC machines. 

None of them compare to an Irradiating Disarm Loki though.

To be clear, my problem isn't with Loki as such. Without Irradiating Disarm I would have no problem with him. That Augment changes the metric entirely though.

[armedpoop]

2 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

None of them compare to an Irradiating Disarm Loki though.

To be clear, my problem isn't with Loki as such. Without Irradiating Disarm I would have no problem with him. That Augment changes the metric entirely though.

Again, dancing all over responses. Boy, you sure know how to have discussions. I was really hoping youd actually give me a response other than "im right because I say so". Thats not how this works. 

"None of them compare to an Irradiating Disarm Loki though."

Except they do tho, Nyx's Chaos lasts a lot longer AND enemies actually can kill each other.

Hydroid's puddle will actually completely disable enemies along with his 4. 

Limbo can completely disable multiple enemies at a time, or make an ally invisible while they spam abilities and continue killing. 

 

[WrathAscending]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Invisibility doesnt protect you from stray bullets, eximus aura (drain, electric, poisons, fire explosion) or environmental hazards. 

Alot of people have requested to make decoy scale with levels of enemies,  Disarmed high level enemies can still one hit loki & radiation proc augment only last 9 seconds while nyx chaos can last more than 50 seconds...

Why do you hate loki so much though? The only possible cause this thread exist is bcos someone is:

A] hate loki

B] bait

Its definitely not bcos youre a pro (or at least experienced player) that you understand which frame is OP & which one isnt, bcos if you do, you wont post a false argument & facts about loki being OP.

Irradiating Disarm. That's literally it. That Aug completely takes away any reason to bring Nyx. Any Aug that can completely displace another Warframe is an issue.

Put the shoe on the other foot, what if Chaos had an Augment that gave Nyx invisibility. What would that do to Loki's place in the meta?

As for the appeal to experience... please. I've been around since just after Beta. I'm well aware of what is or isn't OP. My argument has nothing whatsoever to do with Loki being "OP," it's that the presence of Irradiating Disarm marginalises another Warframe entirely.

[Nox_Terminus]

8 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

None of them compare to an Irradiating Disarm Loki though.

To be clear, my problem isn't with Loki as such. Without Irradiating Disarm I would have no problem with him. That Augment changes the metric entirely though.

9 second Radiation proc for a relatively weak 4th ability is what makes it OP?

Nyx's lasts 25 seconds with a much larger radius for 25 less energy.

Oberon's lasts 12 seconds, and also blinds, and does more damage.

1 minute ago, WrathAscending said:

Put the shoe on the other foot, what if Chaos had an Augment that gave Nyx invisibility. What would that do to Loki's place in the meta?

You're a troll, you cannot be this backwards.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Nox_Terminus

[armedpoop]

3 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Put the shoe on the other foot, what if Chaos had an Augment that gave Nyx invisibility. What would that do to Loki's place in the meta?

I can tell you, it would do literally NOTHING to Loki in the meta. Both of their roles are completely different and adding invis to her chaos wouldnt do anything super helpful. 

As for that appeal to experience, thats funny, cause the way you talk and lack of knowledge of certain powers suggests otherwise. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by armedpoop

[Deskhon]

3 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

My argument has nothing whatsoever to do with Loki being "OP," it's that the presence of Irradiating Disarm marginalises another Warframe entirely.

Well, according to your logic, vauban's radiation grenade also marginalises nyx.

 

[Nox_Terminus]

Just now, Deskhon said:

Well, according to your logic, vauban's radiation grenade also marginalises nyx.

 

I don't think there's any logic going on there, I think this dude is just being a troll.

[WrathAscending]

1 minute ago, armedpoop said:

Again, dancing all over responses. Boy, you sure know how to have discussions. I was really hoping youd actually give me a response other than "im right because I say so". Thats not how this works. 

"None of them compare to an Irradiating Disarm Loki though."

Except they do tho, Nyx's Chaos lasts a lot longer AND enemies actually can kill each other.

Hydroid's puddle will actually completely disable enemies along with his 4. 

Limbo can completely disable multiple enemies at a time, or make an ally invisible while they spam abilities and continue killing. 

 

Nyx's Chaos comes with a not insignificant chance of still being hit by enemy fire. ID makes the enemy charge at the closest target and engage it in melee, eliminating the risk of stray life-ending bullets entirely. And once the Rad proc wears off, they still can't shoot you, they have to close to melee. Enemies still can and will kill each other in melee too.

Hydroid's puddle is at best a debilitating power and if you run out of energy or disengage it before killing the enemy you're going to get wrecked against high-level opponents once they're disgorged.

Limbo's protection comes with the downside of not being able to interact with the environment, including hacking terminals, dropping Power Cells on excavators if the Cataclysm bubble is large enough, or picking up drops from the enemy.

There are downsides to the use of those powers. Not so much for Irradiating Disarm. There are reasons for "H (endless mission), need ID Loki" being spammed in Recruitment while "H (endless mission), need Nyx/Hydroid/Limbo" never was. And on the vanishingly rare occasion you ever saw any request for Hydroid, it was always for a Pilfering Hydroid. Never saw any requests at all for Nyx or Limbo though/

[(PSN)Azure_King03]

Nyx is not very desirable warframe atm though... Even if you removed loki's aug mod that would change nothing, nyx would still not be a desirable warframe.  Whenever I see people wanting warframes for stuff like endless excavation I always see people want mass range slow CC, not loki.