Power Immunity: A Development Crutch that Needs to Go Away

[Voltage]

On July 25, 2016 at 10:19 AM, CTanGod said:

The only problem in your thought chain is that people scream bloody murder at Bladestorm because it's good at killing things, if you make CC unneeded you will bring back braindead gameplay of spam 4 (or whatever AOE kill move you've got) which we worked so hard to tone down. If anything CC SHOULD be overpowered because the abilities that provide it DO NOT also double as efficient kill moves, while endless game modes may be dead (although not really because you know RELICS) that doesn't mean CC isn't needed in Sorties or Raids.

CC shouldn't be nerfed because CC is all about teamwork, somebody blinds the enemies while another kills them, that's how it should be.

nova has CC and buff for damage, Mesa has shooting gallery and peacemaker. Divine spears has cc or damage or both balanced. Ash brings nothing  to the game for others but selfish gameplay. ALSO, Ash doesn't let anyone else kill the enemies while he's in animation. So the reason me and others hate ash-hole is because he is simply the most selfish playstyle right next to limboner

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

27 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

So it boiled down to power fantasy appeals after all.  At least it's out in the open now.  

If you got nothing else out of the posts you clearly didn't read them.  Your suggestion directly ruins immersion.  There are ways of adding challenge and balance while not sacrificing what makes Warframe Warframe.

The only thing I remember you suggesting as an actual change was a small tweak to nullifier shields.  So if you don't want mini bosses that are challenging but still respect our powers what do you want?  Do you want all Warframes to be only as strong as a lancer?  What exactly do you want?

[(PSN)martin576]

On 28/07/2016 at 7:52 AM, RealPandemonium said:

My words are not directed at you, specifically, and my assertions are not necessarily even based on player attitudes (though they do distress me.)  The fact is, the unprecedentedly unfettered access that we have to our powers in the current state of Warframe means that missions are practically unlosable, and that gameplay is reduced to the gimmicks that make the mission unlosable.  Nullifiers at least threaten our ability to win with impunity.  They create gameplay, rather than removing it as people assert they do (nothing removes gameplay like indefinitely CCing everything on the map, remaining [effectively] invulnerable in a variety of different ways, or nuking everything on the tile to death with zero effort.)  In the level 70+ environment of Sorties, Nullifiers only highlight how broken enemy scaling is; they do not, by themselves, break the experience.  

Fissure Nullifiers are pretty cheap, and should be addressed as a separate issue, though only because they are unsatisfying and not because they are unbalanced (suddenly losing your buffs in a star map mission is annoying but will likely do little to prevent you from steamrolling most star map fissure missions in the current state of WF.)

Here my words are directed to you: if you want to suffer, go to an S/M club and don't play Warframe. If you want challenge in every corner, go and play Dark Souls or Bloodborne. I'm getting sick of you burned out Waframe-nazis who slowly and completely killing this game - and this forum too - with your desire to cry a river in every single mission, because you are bored.

This game was about ace space-ninjas who rule the solar system and kill enemies by thosands fast and easy, because they were the ultimate fighting machines. Now I come online every day and already afraid what rework" I ran into, which destroyed my fav frame or weapon, because some complained its too powerful.

[robbybe01234]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

So it boiled down to power fantasy appeals after all.  At least it's out in the open now.  

Well, for me, it's more that I could play 100 other games as shooter guy.  It would be done better there because that is the game's focus, no frills run and gun.  

I'm here cause it has its frames that set it apart from a host of other things that compete for my time. 

On the challenge topic.  Look, if you want challenge so much just drop some mods or use bad weapons for the mission.

Edited July 28, 2016 by robbybe01234
grammar

[Bibliothekar]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

So it boiled down to power fantasy appeals after all.  At least it's out in the open now.  

Warframe has, at least for me, always been about the power fantasy. If I wanted to get my arse kicked when I poke my head out of cover at the wrong moment, I'd go any play The Division or something like that. Or finally finish my game of Borderlands Pre-Sequel that I quit because of those bloody Momma Guardians.

I'm fine with having mini-bosses (like Juggernaut, Bursas, assassins) that require more work and tactics - but what's the point in being able to turn entire hordes of enemies into ashes, popsicles or puddles of goo when you can't because of Nullifiers. That's not just boring but even frustrating. You're given the power of a god just for some random guy to come along and block you from using it. And not just that, but his stupid shield is impenetrable by ANYTHING. You can stand outside it with a Primed Reach Orthos and whack away at him and he'll just laugh at you, because although you should hit him with that much range, you don't.

Remember when we had the thrown-melee-only hijack TA with Nullifiers everywhere? When I first saw that I thought "hey, maybe they changed it so Glaive & co can now penetrate the bubble and kill them directly", but nooo ... That was honestly the worst Tactical Alert so far. I barely played the necessary missions for the reward.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Bibliothekar

[Replacement]

6 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

My words are not directed at you, specifically, and my assertions are not necessarily even based on player attitudes (though they do distress me.)  The fact is, the unprecedentedly unfettered access that we have to our powers in the current state of Warframe means that missions are practically unlosable, and that gameplay is reduced to the gimmicks that make the mission unlosable.  Nullifiers at least threaten our ability to win with impunity.  They create gameplay, rather than removing it as people assert they do (nothing removes gameplay like indefinitely CCing everything on the map, remaining [effectively] invulnerable in a variety of different ways, or nuking everything on the tile to death with zero effort.)  In the level 70+ environment of Sorties, Nullifiers only highlight how broken enemy scaling is; they do not, by themselves, break the experience.  

Fissure Nullifiers are pretty cheap, and should be addressed as a separate issue, though only because they are unsatisfying and not because they are unbalanced (suddenly losing your buffs in a star map mission is annoying but will likely do little to prevent you from steamrolling most star map fissure missions in the current state of WF.)

You are absolutely correct on your assertions, here -- Armor scaling is absurd, power economy is absurd, CC is absurd.  We actually agree on most fronts, here.  But Nullifiers aren't and never were the solution: fixing the other problems was.  

DE game design follows their own lore: we unleashed the infestation to fight the foe, and now we have 2 foes.  Nullifiers weren't the fix they were supposed to be: they've just infested the game.  

But this is where I get unpopular:  I'm all for nerfs.  I would aggressively reduce ranges and durations on hard CC (15 second blind out to 25m for only 50 energy? And this opens them up to CL finishers?  Are you kidding me?!).

But then, I knew this game would get out of hand when I first chose Mag as my starting frame and I was clearing entire rooms with my starting power.  Where do you even go from there?  The only way to balance that large scale destruction is to make enemies capable of shrugging it off (power damage not scaling well), or immune (nullifiers), or as destructive as us (thousand-damage Hind-burst + slash proc).

Sidenote: for me, at least, "not wanting to play call of duty" isn't the same thing as "power fantasy." 

[Naftal]

You suggest removing power immunity but don't propose any nerfs to our OP abilities, which are the reason why power immunity is needed.

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

You are absolutely correct on your assertions, here -- Armor scaling is absurd, power economy is absurd, CC is absurd.  We actually agree on most fronts, here.  But Nullifiers aren't and never were the solution: fixing the other problems was.  

DE game design follows their own lore: we unleashed the infestation to fight the foe, and now we have 2 foes.  Nullifiers weren't the fix they were supposed to be: they've just infested the game.  

But this is where I get unpopular:  I'm all for nerfs.  I would aggressively reduce ranges and durations on hard CC (15 second blind out to 25m for only 50 energy? And this opens them up to CL finishers?  Are you kidding me?!).

But then, I knew this game would get out of hand when I first chose Mag as my starting frame and I was clearing entire rooms with my starting power.  Where do you even go from there?  The only way to balance that large scale destruction is to make enemies capable of shrugging it off (power damage not scaling well), or immune (nullifiers), or as destructive as us (thousand-damage Hind-burst + slash proc).

Sidenote: for me, at least, "not wanting to play call of duty" isn't the same thing as "power fantasy." 

At least your reasons are legitimately about a pet peeve dislike of Nullifiers and not a thinly veiled desire for omnipotence in what's supposed to be an exciting action game.  

If the other core problems were fixed, I would have no problem with Nullifiers being a Bursa-like miniboss instead if a generic unit.  

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

5 hours ago, Naftal said:

You suggest removing power immunity but don't propose any nerfs to our OP abilities, which are the reason why power immunity is needed.

to which i earlier said

10 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

and should be power resistant by having power strength and power duration reduction percentages.  Chaos would not last long, and prime would not completely seal the enemies movement, weapons would have to be destroyed by targeting them and radial disarm would only temporally jam them.

Immunity is a bad way to go about balance and challenge.  It turns Warframe into Resident Evil Operation Raccoon City.

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

At least your reasons are legitimately about a pet peeve dislike of Nullifiers and not a thinly veiled desire for omnipotence in what's supposed to be an exciting action game.  

If the other core problems were fixed, I would have no problem with Nullifiers being a Bursa-like miniboss instead if a generic unit.

To this I can only assume you would be happy if Warframes never got stronger than the average lancer.  And like above, that would turn Warframe into RE:ORC.  Yes there is powercreep, and yes what are now trash enemies were not always trash enemies.  However, you are advocating moving backwards and returning the game to that state.  That is stagnation of game play.  Ever play Shadow of the Colossus?  Warframe could use a bit of that and move forward while evolving the gameplay.  Ironically you are the one who needs to be pushed out of their comfort zone.  

And no I don't want omnipotence.  I want bigger prey.

[RealPandemonium]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

To this I can only assume you would be happy if Warframes never got stronger than the average lancer

 That's just sensational.  It's hard to take your feedback seriously when you deal in extremes like this.  

27 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Yes there is powercreep, and yes what are now trash enemies were not always trash enemies.  However, you are advocating moving backwards and returning the game to that state.  That is stagnation of game play.  

You want bigger prey, but you're happy with trash mobs being trash mobs, and even support the trivialization of even more enemy types?  Gameplay really started to stagnate when enemies stopped mattering due to weapon powercreep and the proliferation of corrupted mods.  Then weapon powercreep escalated further, Focus and Arcanes were added, and missions became even more overtly trivial as a result.

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

 Ever play Shadow of the Colossus?  Warframe could use a bit of that and move forward while evolving the gameplay.  Ironically you are the one who needs to be pushed out of their comfort zone.  

And no I don't want omnipotence.  I want bigger prey.

That's a bizarre example of a game to compare to Warframe, but I at least get that you want more epic encounters.  We won't be getting them if our available options trivialize all opposition.  Players need a nerf, then bandaids to player power like Nullifiers and excessive enemy levels can be adjusted accordingly.  Once that's done, DE can focus on tailoring more engaging, epic encounters for players, but it's never going to be a fruitful pursuit until core changes are made to the game at large.  

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

5 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

That's just sensational.  It's hard to take your feedback seriously when you deal in extremes like this.

You have not given me much to work with.

6 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

You want bigger prey, but you're happy with trash mobs being trash mobs, and even support the trivialization of even more enemy types?  Gameplay really started to stagnate when enemies stopped mattering due to weapon powercreep and the proliferation of corrupted mods.  Then weapon powercreep escalated further, Focus and Arcanes were added, and missions became even more overtly trivial as a result.

I don't think a lancer should ever be a real threat, and in their current state, gunners, bombards, nullifiers, and even bursas are all trash mobs too.  As long as they are no more complex than an enemy that dies to simple simulor vomit they will be nothing else.  Gunners should have an ammo pack we can blow up that downgrades their gun, and we should be able to strip their armor by performing a finisher or striking a point on their back.  We should have to reflect bombard missiles back at them to strip their armor before we can kill them.  Nullifiers should have a personal shield in addition to the bubble, to kill the nullifer we have to drop the bubble, destroy shield generator that powers both shields and then kill them.  We should have to disable bursas from the front to disable them temporary and then attack the panel on their back.  Then add a bit of resistance to power strength and duration and we have a set of meaningful enemies.  I do not support making the enemies trivial, they were trivial from the start.

22 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

That's a bizarre example of a game to compare to Warframe, but I at least get that you want more epic encounters.  We won't be getting them if our available options trivialize all opposition.  Players need a nerf, then bandaids to player power like Nullifiers and excessive enemy levels can be adjusted accordingly.  Once that's done, DE can focus on tailoring more engaging, epic encounters for players, but it's never going to be a fruitful pursuit until core changes are made to the game at large.

I like being able to use powers more.  Heavy restrictions on energy will bring back the days were everyone just builds their frame to use a single ability since that is all they have energy for.  I'm glad we left those days behind.  I love being able to chain wormholes, but I wouldn't do it if it took away my ability to cast prime when it was needed.  Players don't need to be nerfed closer to the trash, the trash needs to evolve into something better and meet us.

[RealPandemonium]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

You have not given me much to work with.

I don't think a lancer should ever be a real threat, and in their current state, gunners, bombards, nullifiers, and even bursas are all trash mobs too.  As long as they are no more complex than an enemy that dies to simple simulor vomit they will be nothing else.  Gunners should have an ammo pack we can blow up that downgrades their gun, and we should be able to strip their armor by performing a finisher or striking a point on their back.  We should have to reflect bombard missiles back at them to strip their armor before we can kill them.  Nullifiers should have a personal shield in addition to the bubble, to kill the nullifer we have to drop the bubble, destroy shield generator that powers both shields and then kill them.  We should have to disable bursas from the front to disable them temporary and then attack the panel on their back.  Then add a bit of resistance to power strength and duration and we have a set of meaningful enemies.  I do not support making the enemies trivial, they were trivial from the start.

I like being able to use powers more.  Heavy restrictions on energy will bring back the days were everyone just builds their frame to use a single ability since that is all they have energy for.  I'm glad we left those days behind.  I love being able to chain wormholes, but I wouldn't do it if it took away my ability to cast prime when it was needed.  Players don't need to be nerfed closer to the trash, the trash needs to evolve into something better and meet us.

Maybe if simulor vomit didnt do such excessive damage in a giant AOE, we might have to think more about fighting them?

More complex enemy encounters could be great, but they take a lot of effort to make and as such are not a viable short or probably even medium-term solution.  Taking my approach and then easing into more complex encounters would be a lot more feasible, while also being easier to balance since the base numbers are not all flying up in the stratosphere.

People didn't p4tw before because it was all they had energy for; they did so because it would instantly kill everything in the room.  This is still true, except now they just permaCC everything in the room instead and blow it away with weapons that are three times as powerful as they need to be.

So you want the trash to evolve to meet us?  You want enemies to be power-immune (see where that took us?)

Edited July 28, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Replacement]

4 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

If the other core problems were fixed, I would have no problem with Nullifiers being a Bursa-like miniboss instead if a generic unit.  

I think this is pretty much the perfect discourse (or as close to perfect as you can get on Ye Olde Internets).  There's a lot of hyperbole on both sides of this discussion, and I actually think you and I have done a great job of cutting through that to arrive at a mutual conclusion.  

And nullifiers as special units (assuming other problems are addressed!) is something we both can agree to.

I think I'm done here.

EDIT-

@(PS4)Final_Dragon01 I don't think your elite lancer line is very fair.  He's talking about legitimate problems to game health, not arming everyone exclusively with PP7s.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Replacement

[RealPandemonium]

13 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I think this is pretty much the perfect discourse (or as close to perfect as you can get on Ye Olde Internets).  There's a lot of hyperbole on both sides of this discussion, and I actually think you and I have done a great job of cutting through that to arrive at a mutual conclusion.  

And nullifiers as special units (assuming other problems are addressed!) is something we both can agree to.

I think I'm done here.

Good to see some legit commentary on this forum.  Cheers!

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

27 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Maybe if simulor vomit didnt do such excessive damage in a giant AOE, we might have to think more about fighting them?

More complex enemy encounters could be great, but they take a lot of effort to make and as such are not a viable short or probably even medium-term solution.  Taking my approach and then easing into more complex encounters would be a lot more feasible, while also being easier to balance since the base numbers are not all flying up in the stratosphere.

People didn't p4tw before because it was all they had energy for; they did so because it would instantly kill everything in the room.  This is still true, except now they just permaCC everything in the room instead and blow it away with weapons that are three times as powerful as they need to be.

So you want the trash to evolve to meet us?  You want enemies to be power-immune (see where that took us?)

It was the Soma and boltor before the simulor, and I'm sure there was something else before them.  As long as we have difficulty scaled off of effective HP we will always have this scaling issue, and trivial bullet sponges with one shot attacks.  Universally nerfing everything is just shuffling the hats around without fixing anything or evolving the game play.

I do support a weapon damage rework, but that is a different issue.  This is about nullifiers and abilities.

People p4tw because it was the only ability mod they even slotted on their frame.  DE said they wanted us to have all our powers so they changed that, and now there is a lot more frivolous power usage and that is a good thing.

In the very post you quoted I said I wanted power resistance not immunity.  Power strength and power duration reduction percentages on non-trash enemies still allows us to use our abilities on them without trivializing the special enemy, but still maintaining our strength over trash units.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

32 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I don't think your elite lancer line is very fair.  He's talking about legitimate problems to game health, not arming everyone exclusively with PP7s.

I'm simply pushing him for a real tangible solution, rather than the tired old banner of 'We are OP. Nerf frames. Nerf enemies. Nerf weapons. Nerf everything. Nerf life.'  The core of the problem is difficulty is scaled off of effective HP and as long as that is true we will always have bullet sponges that one shot.  Which is why we have CC.  Which is why we have nullies.  Which is why we have this thread.  Making us less 'OP' as he puts it does nothing to solve the real problem.

[Bibliothekar]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

You want enemies to be power-immune (see where that took us?)

Power-resistant. Not power-immune. And yes, why not? Have enemy build up resistances to certain attacks, similar to how Sentients already do it (just slower and rather to CC abilities).

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

13 hours ago, Bibliothekar said:

Power-resistant. Not power-immune. And yes, why not? Have enemy build up resistances to certain attacks, similar to how Sentients already do it (just slower and rather to CC abilities).

I personally support enemies that are resistant to power strength and duration on a flat scale but enemies that progressively gain resistance should also be looked at as well. +1

[CTanGod]

On 28.07.2016 at 1:24 PM, -Voltage- said:

nova has CC and buff for damage, Mesa has shooting gallery and peacemaker. Divine spears has cc or damage or both balanced. Ash brings nothing  to the game for others but selfish gameplay. ALSO, Ash doesn't let anyone else kill the enemies while he's in animation. So the reason me and others hate ash-hole is because he is simply the most selfish playstyle right next to limboner

Ash was designed to deal damage and nothing more, take away his damage and he is beyond useless and no Limbo is not a selfish frame he can easily make other Warframe's life easier (e.g Perma Exalted Blade due to Rift Regen).

[Arkblue]

I see people here talking about how "nerfing solves NOTHING". Actually, that would only be true where crutch changes aren't implemented to make up to overscaling.   

For example, if we consider Nullifiers, they are meant to answer excessively strong abilities, and since they are meant to tackle the excessively strong, they are overkill in all the other scenarios.   

Grineer infinitely scaling armor is meant to counter that weapon that applies corrosion faster than you can see the ticks.   
Armor itself is meant to counter weapons capable of costantly redcritting. 

And it goes on like that. If you want to break the circle, something's gotta give.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

4 minutes ago, Arkblue said:

I see people here talking about how "nerfing solves NOTHING". Actually, that would only be true where crutch changes aren't implemented to make up to overscaling.   

For example, if we consider Nullifiers, they are meant to answer excessively strong abilities, and since they are meant to tackle the excessively strong, they are overkill in all the other scenarios.   

Grineer infinitely scaling armor is meant to counter that weapon that applies corrosion faster than you can see the ticks.   
Armor itself is meant to counter weapons capable of costantly redcritting. 

And it goes on like that. If you want to break the circle, something's gotta give.

You are correct, and the thing that needs to go is difficulty based on effective HP.

[Arkblue]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

You are correct, and the thing that needs to go is difficulty based on effective HP.

I think that HP are a good way to leverage the difficulty on endless mission: you start the mission and it takes , idk, 5 bullets to kill an enemy with a certain weapon. 
Wave 5, it takes 7. Wave 10, it takes 9. Wave 15, it takes 11. That's ok.    

However, when you add nullifiers in a big number, or armor, wew lad. 

Against Corpus, you end up slide attacking back and forth to clear Nullifiers, otherwise there is no point to shooting.   
Against Grineer, either you have 4 corrosive projetion or the quadratic scaling on armor makes them almost impossible to take down spending a reasonable amount of bullets, thus soft-capping the amount of time you can spend in game without overpowered effects like instafinishers.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

1 minute ago, Arkblue said:

I think that HP are a good way to leverage the difficulty on endless mission: you start the mission and it takes , idk, 5 bullets to kill an enemy with a certain weapon. 
Wave 5, it takes 7. Wave 10, it takes 9. Wave 15, it takes 11. That's ok.    

However, when you add nullifiers in a big number, or armor, wew lad. 

Against Corpus, you end up slide attacking back and forth to clear Nullifiers, otherwise there is no point to shooting.   
Against Grineer, either you have 4 corrosive projetion or the quadratic scaling on armor makes them almost impossible to take down spending a reasonable amount of bullets, thus soft-capping the amount of time you can spend in game without overpowered effects like instafinishers.

I think the problem is more fundamental then that.  The problem is heavy gunners, bombards, lancers and elite lancers are all essentially the same enemy with a different weapon and model.  The only real difference is the health and damage dealt, and both are difficulty based on effective HP, ours and theirs.  If difficulty is based on effective HP we eventually end up with nigh-invulnerable bullet sponges that one-shot even the strongest frame.

Us getting one-shotted so easily and by everything is a huge problem and that is why we have such powerful CC in the first place.  If there are one-shot attacks in the game, they must be very well telegraphed.  The new laser on the grineer sniper is a good example of this.  The beeping grenades are a step in the right direction but they need a much better visual indicator.  However, eventually even a cruddy lancer with it's rapid fire, hit scan weapon will one-shot anything, and that should never be true, ever.

An example of difficulty not based on effective HP would be making it so that heavy gunners have an ammo pack we can blow up to downgrade their gun and have a spot on their back we can strike to strip their armor which should have even more damage resistance than it does now.  Fielding sets of enemies like this would greatly increase the challenge and variety of Warframe without simply nerfing everything into the ground.  Power strength and power duration reduction modifiers could be used to make sure enemies that are meant to provide a skill challenge are not trivialized.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

I think the problem is more fundamental then that.  The problem is heavy gunners, bombards, lancers and elite lancers are all essentially the same enemy with a different weapon and model.  The only real difference is the health and damage dealt, and both are difficulty based on effective HP, ours and theirs.  If difficulty is based on effective HP we eventually end up with nigh-invulnerable bullet sponges that one-shot even the strongest frame.

Us getting one-shotted so easily and by everything is a huge problem and that is why we have such powerful CC in the first place.  If there are one-shot attacks in the game, they must be very well telegraphed.  The new laser on the grineer sniper is a good example of this.  The beeping grenades are a step in the right direction but they need a much better visual indicator.  However, eventually even a cruddy lancer with it's rapid fire, hit scan weapon will one-shot anything, and that should never be true, ever.

An example of difficulty not based on effective HP would be making it so that heavy gunners have an ammo pack we can blow up to downgrade their gun and have a spot on their back we can strike to strip their armor which should have even more damage resistance than it does now.  Fielding sets of enemies like this would greatly increase the challenge and variety of Warframe without simply nerfing everything into the ground.  Power strength and power duration reduction modifiers could be used to make sure enemies that are meant to provide a skill challenge are not trivialized.

Honestly, what needs to happen is something like the following:

 

=============================

Damage, Health, Shields and Armor

=============================

MAJOR Stat Squish. EHP capped at 2x base. Same for Armor and Shields.

Players: Redirection, Steel Fiber, Vitality and Intensify built into frames. Those mods are removed, and compensated. Maybe even replaced with mods that offer tradeoffs as well, such as less power for more shields and vice versa.

Weapons: Damage output adjusted based on new values.

ENEMY Weapons: ALL Hitscan weapons are removed from enemies and replaced with versions using REAL projectiles we can actually dodge

Shields: Become real shields again. Physical damage procs cannot occur while shields are up. Damage that would reduce your shields to Zero still does, however, it does not carry over to reduce health in the same shot (Shield Gating). Health starts with the first attack AFTER your shields are depleted (no more one shot deaths).

Likewise, physical damage procs are made MORE dangerous, since our shields must first be reduced before they can occur

NO MORE MODS THAT STRAIGHT UP INCREASE NUMBERS WITHOUT A TRADEOFF OF SOME SORT. EVER.

 

==============

Abilities - Players

==============

-Radial Disarm becomes Radial Jam (Radial version of Mesa's Shooting Gallery). Irradiated Disarm becomes Explosive Misfire. Prior to Jamming, all weapons discharge an explosive backfire, dealing 150% of their damage to their owners and causing a 100% chance of Impact Proc. THEN they jam for the duration. 

Reason: Sorry, I love Loki, too. But you cannot balance enemy weapons in a game where a frame is allowed to PERMANENTLY take them away. That's...ludicrous.

 

================================

Power Efficiency (still unsure of this one)

================================

Power efficiency either:

-Negatively affects STRENGTH, NOT Duration

-OR it does not apply to Ultimates

-OR it is capped at 50%, with Streamline being buffered and Fleeting Expertise being removed and compensated.

 

================

Abilties - Enemies

================

Nullifier is removed. The bubble is given to Comba (Blue Bubble) and Scramba (Green). The bubble is no longer bullet proof. At all. It blocks powers only, both in and outbound but will NOT stop projectiles of any kind. It exists more as a visual cue and indicator of the suppression area.

Bursa: Turning speed reduced an additional 10-20%. Punchthrough now enables weapons to damage them from the front. Undetected Tenno can hack them before they are downed (because...NINJA!)

Butcher: Loses his knockback leap. The ability to push Warframes around like schoolyard kids has NO BUSINESS showing up on an enemy that can spawn on level 1-3 missions. 

Heavy Gunner: Reprised animation. Knockdown slam now requires the Gunner to holster her big weapon fully on her back, then begin the slam animation. The Slam now staggers Tenno momentarily, but does NOT knock them down. See reasoning of Butcher, above.

Bombard: Rockets lose tracking. Slam Staggers, but does NOT knock down.

Scorpion: Removed from the game. It serves no purpose but to spam a single knockdown over and over again to prevent power spam through loss of control. Its the Grineer Nullifier. Get rid of it.

Lancer: Grakata uses REAL projectiles we can dodge.

Napalm: Flamethrower now does friendly fire damage to other Grineer units. If we have to suffer through this with our more powerful weapons - Kullstar, anyway) so do they. Additionally, Napalms can no longer damage players through walls, because, well...THEY'RE FRICKIN WALLS.

Hyekka Master: Loses Flamethrower and ALL armor. What animal trainer would wield an AoE Flamethrower (that now deals friendly fire damage) as their primary weapon? Nope; its replaced by a whip. They lose armor because...plain white tanktop shirts ARENT ARMORED. If a unit does not have a visual indicator its wearing armor, you DO NOT give it magical invisible armor. Period. This should be a nuisance unit, NOT a unit on par with Bombards.

-Drahk Master: Loses disarm chance on hit. If we can no longer let Loki take away their weapons, they have no business taking away ours.

-Ancient: Loses Grappling hook/Cthulu tentacle thing.

-Toxix/Drain Auras: Removed from the game. Things are now balanced and power spam reigned in some. We no longer need auras that drain our health or energy without skill based counterplay. This is no longer the game for that.

 

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Mini Bosses

=================

ALL missions above a certain level would see the introduction of mini bosses. These would likely be Rathuum Champions (Grineer), Proxy Robots (Corpus) and maybe the occasional Acolyte appearance in their place. 

Mini Bosses have the following characteristics at all times:

-Proto Shields

-Sufficient health to actually require engagement, balanced around a potato and reasonable number of Forma for that level of mission.

-Always drop a reward unique to them or from a hard to acquire loot table (can include Forma BP and Relics of T3 or T4)

-Can appear with ANY wave of enemies on any mission, but cannot exceed two on the battlefield at the same time (the spawn will be overidden if it tries again with two mini bosses still alive)

-Will NEVER teleport, or have forced invulnerability phases. Mini Bosses are there to FIGHT, not to cheese players into auto losses and frustration. Will NOT affect self buff or team buff powers in ANY negative way.

-Power Strength: Damage powers deal 50% damage to Mini Bosses on their first cast, and are reduced an additional 10% in effectiveness per hit thereafter

-Crowd Control abilities affect mini bosses for only 30% of their duration with the first cast, and suffer an additional 10% reduction thereafter, down to 0% on their fourth cast (with an audible notification that it has reached that point)

Reasoning: Players want powers. I want powers. I enjoy powers. But I also want enemies we need to ENGAGE. To think about. To interact with beyond "Pres 4 to kill." Mini Bosses allow us to suppress the Hordes of mooks with our powerful abilities, while still throwing in a monkey wrench now and then, in a manner MUCH more enjoyable than Nullifiers.

Besides...who wouldnt enjoy fighting those Proxy robots in Corpus missions where Nullifiers no longer existed. I think Corpus might be my favorite mission type if that were to happen - and I didnt think I would ever say that.

So...let me know...is this a solid foundation for reworking things? Should DE take some inspiration from this?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

6 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

So...let me know...is this a solid foundation for reworking things? Should DE take some inspiration from this?

Yes absolutely.  You have a good base for a damage 3.0 rework.  This would solve the issue of enemies one shotting us.

However, I do have a few suggestions.

6 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

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Damage, Health, Shields and Armor

=============================

I like most of this except that steel fiber, redirection, vitality are baked into the frames.  I like the idea we have to pay fusion cores in to something to get stronger.  It gave a nice sense of progression as I was leveling up.  Second, if we were just given these mods we would have to lose at least 2 mod slots to compensate.  I like being able to 'spend' tankiness on extra speed or stronger abilities.  If the mods are baked in loki will always be made of tissue paper where as now we can drop seven mods on loki to make him quite tanky.

Potentially being able to dodge every bullet fired at you would be a massive skill based evasion improvement.

6 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

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Abilities - Players

==============

I don't think there is a reason all abilities should effect all enemies in the same way.  Why not change disarm so that it disarmed trash mobs like lancers and snipers, but only jammed the weapons of larger targets.  Most trash enemies have very short lifespans so stripping their weapons would not be a big deal.  Most of the abilities could be left as they are if they were balanced by giving meaningful enemies resistance to power strength and duration.  So the mini bosses you mentioned would recover from chaos in a few seconds but the rest of the room would still be brainwashed for the entire duration.  The power strength reduction is mainly for nova so the slow is not as sever on important enemies and not frames with purely damage based abilities.

6 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

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Power Efficiency (still unsure of this one)

================================

I like being able to use energy frivolously.  I would leave it as it is and adjust the resistance modifiers on non-trash enemies per ability counter any p4tw that occurs.  However if we had enemies that required special actions to kill, instead of ever growing bullet sponges, p4tw would not be a thing anyway.

6 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

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Abilties - Enemies

================

This is where I really disagree with you.  I do like that you are going through an removing the cheese from enemies but if only the suggested changes were made all the enemies would be too similar and difficulty would be based almost entirely on effective HP, which would make everything that currently exists trash mobs.

Enemies should have four distinct classes: trash, elite, mini-boss, boss.

Trash enemies should always be weak compared to the tenno and provide no real threat.

Elite enemies should have a limited amount of power resistance and require special interaction to kill.  However the fight with an elite enemy should not last longer than about 5-10 seconds.

Mini-bosses should have more power resistance and require multi staged special interaction to kill.  Fights with mini bosses should last up from 20 seconds to 45 seconds.

Bosses are current bosses.

Nullifiers - Buffed and turned into a mini-boss as is appropriate for what they do.  They should never have been a trash mob to begin with.  Shield should be completely unbreakable and the nully should be damage immune while the shield is up.  The shield is powered by three dedicated ospreys under the shield.  We should have to parkor in and destroy the ospreys before we can get back out and down the shield.  Once the shield is down we have the option of destroying the shield generator before killing the nully itself.  Should use a supra to make it dangerous to go after ospreys while he is not reloading.

Bursas - Should be an elite class enemy.  The turn speed should be unnerfed and targets should be added to the front that temporarily disable the unit as the special interaction.  I like the stealth hack Idea.

Heavy Gunner - elite class enemy.  Has an ammo pack we can hit to downgrade the gun and a point on the back we can hit to strip armor.  Finishers will also strip armor.  Damage resistance while armor is still up is increased.

Bombard - elite class enemy.  Completely damage immune until we reflect a rocket back at him which strips armor.

Scorpion - Buffed and turned into a Mini-boss enemy.  Has near total damage immunity at the start of the fight.  Scorpion's grappling hook grabs a player and reels them before suspending them and starting to cut through the Warframe with a miter saw.  However, once hooked the player can shoot the grappling hook's winch to release the grapple.  Or melee when close enough for the same effect.  There are 5-6 different targets on the scorpion that stun the enemy and allow up to walk up and physically rip a plate of armor off the enemy.  Shooting the newly exposed area does more damage.  Ripping off more plates causes you to do more damage.

Napalm - elite class enemy.  Has high damage resistance.  Has 6 tanks of napalm that deal 1/6 of total hp for each one blown up.  Napalm tanks completely resist AOE damage.  Still hits through walls, but napalm blasts can be shot down.

Drahks and Heykkas - elite class enemies that hide and just keep summoning pets till we hunt their sorry behinds down.  Max 5 pets per unit.  Missing pets replaced every 10 seconds.

Ancients - elite class enemies.  Grapple is replaced with a grab that holds you in place.  You must shoot the ancient's arms or melee to release.  If you let the grab go on for too long the ancient one shots you by crushing your frame like a tin can.  Does not deal incremental damage.

Auras - Fine as is but should highlight enemies affecting you with an aura through walls.  Also there should be a way of disabling auras without needing to kill the unit.

6 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

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Mini Bosses

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I think your mini-bosses are too weak and too based on effective HP for difficulty.  Even the stalker in my book is currently only an elite enemy.  I like most of the characteristics but they need multistage special interaction so they are resistant to powercreep.  Couple examples of multistage special interaction are above.

Edited July 31, 2016 by (PS4)Final_Dragon01