How about we get some one-shot protection?

[Dreddeth]

I think there was a really nice thread on shield thresholds or something like that a while back. If implemented it would mean that damage from a single shot would not carry over to health from your shields no matter how much excess damage that shot has leftover after your shields have broken, which would in turn mean that it would take a bare minimum of two shots to be killed, unless you were playing Inaros.

But let's be honest, if Inaros is getting killed in one shot, it's time to leave.

I thought it sounded like a good idea considering how absurd higher levels can get, but I have no idea where the thread vanished to.

[Redthirst]

22 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

We don't have the strict traditional system, but the idea is entirely the same here. Nova is alone in this fight, so obviously she would be targeted. Nova is not a frame that can take a hit easily at higher levels, she requires more careful play with the compromise of having several pretty high damage abilities. She does fit the glass canon trope. Plenty of trash mobs that out level you in other MMO games can oneshot you, so no idea what kind of games you've been playing. Your frame is a level 30, that enemy is a level 110. If you had the same proportion of difference in any other MMO you'd be killed pretty much instantly. Your comparison for healers in Warframe is way off, as most players at any one time aren't in the situations where being one shot is a problem, and a good number of them are in the content that is considered mid tier where general healing works just fine. Its quite rare in other MMOs to go facing enemies that are ridiculously higher leveled than you as well, so again your comparison is off. And just because other games have convenient aggro meters or in-the-way UI graphics that show you who is attacking who doesn't mean those games also don't have the same frustrations of enemies switching targets randomly. Warframe just doesn't do the rather dumb trope in games to force enemies to always shoot the heavy guy first instead of the far weaker and more vulnerable damage dealers. Instead you have to use skills to make that happen, and most of the time those skills are on the frames that are not as tanky because they need those skills more.

Your entire argument hinges on the assumption that we are fighting enemies that outlevel us. But that's not the case(at least it shouldn't be). Current end-game opponents(level 80-100) should be suitable opponents to someone with a fully-modded gear.

And enemies in traditional MMOs don't switch targets at random - there are rules that determine which target it attacks. Warframe seems to be a lot more random when it comes to target acquisition. Furthermore, traditional MMOs tend to have you fight low number of strong enemies(a standart pack of trash will usually have 3-5 enemies in it). If you are getting swarmed by enemies, then they tend to be a lot weaker than usual enemies. So in this context, it can make sense for an enemy to one-shot a glass-cannon kind of character. In Warframe, you will be swarmed by dozens of enemies, but unlike traditional MMOs, these enemies are strong enough to one shot you with a stray bullet.

Then, you talk about abilities that glass-cannon Warframes have to counter them being one-shotted. Most of these abilities is a form of a crowd control, or, to be more specific, permanent crowd control. Now, perma-CC is, by default, a ridiculously broken concept. After you play the game for a while, it appears to be normal, but if you stop and think about it, then you realize just how hilariously broken stuff like perma-CC or permanent, teamwide 99% damage reduction is. It's about as broken as common enemies that swarm you being able to kill you with a single hit.

Because that's how Warframe is supposedly balanced: we have absolutely broken enemies, that are supposed to be countered by absolutely broken players. Only countering one broken concept by another doesn't make a balanced game, it becomes a complete mess with broken core gameplay.

[NeithanDiniem]

2 hours ago, Redthirst said:

Your entire argument hinges on the assumption that we are fighting enemies that outlevel us. But that's not the case(at least it shouldn't be). Current end-game opponents(level 80-100) should be suitable opponents to someone with a fully-modded gear.

And enemies in traditional MMOs don't switch targets at random - there are rules that determine which target it attacks. Warframe seems to be a lot more random when it comes to target acquisition. Furthermore, traditional MMOs tend to have you fight low number of strong enemies(a standart pack of trash will usually have 3-5 enemies in it). If you are getting swarmed by enemies, then they tend to be a lot weaker than usual enemies. So in this context, it can make sense for an enemy to one-shot a glass-cannon kind of character. In Warframe, you will be swarmed by dozens of enemies, but unlike traditional MMOs, these enemies are strong enough to one shot you with a stray bullet.

Then, you talk about abilities that glass-cannon Warframes have to counter them being one-shotted. Most of these abilities is a form of a crowd control, or, to be more specific, permanent crowd control. Now, perma-CC is, by default, a ridiculously broken concept. After you play the game for a while, it appears to be normal, but if you stop and think about it, then you realize just how hilariously broken stuff like perma-CC or permanent, teamwide 99% damage reduction is. It's about as broken as common enemies that swarm you being able to kill you with a single hit.

Because that's how Warframe is supposedly balanced: we have absolutely broken enemies, that are supposed to be countered by absolutely broken players. Only countering one broken concept by another doesn't make a balanced game, it becomes a complete mess with broken core gameplay.

And the Nova in that video was not fully modded, as seen by their health and shields. They were also not moving at all, and point blank to a shotgun. These kinds of situations are not common. Also while a Warframe can gear up, enemies scale endlessly up and end up having ridiculously higher amounts of hp and shields to counter the stupidly high damage potential players have.

And you think that Warframe doesn't have rules for target selection? You think that every single MMO out there has the same system that forces enemies to be predictable across every single one of them? you couldn't be more wrong. Every reference to "other MMOs' Isn't even remotely close to the experience I have had with over a dozen other MMOs when I ventured into high level content. Several were even just a few levels difference, not the difference as seen in this, and still had near instant death from enemy attacks. Ive played plenty where enemies would attack the nearest target them run off to hit a guy a mile away, just because they randomly decided to hit that guy this time. And that was a melee character, not a guy with a gun, who is far more likely to swap targets on a whim.

I never once said that the counter to glass canons was one shot, please don't put words in my mouth to further your own argument. Nova has plenty of skills that would have made mincemeat of that 110 unit, but they did nothing and stood there to show that at close range a shotgun hurts.

That broken balance is exactly why DE is reluctant to release more primed mods and why it is taking them so long to work on enemy scaling and weapon scaling. It is a huge problem that needs an equally huge amount of work to fix. These videos like what OP has show absolutely nothing that isn't already known about high level enemies having the potential to one shot. Players have had that potential for far, FAR longer and far more universally compared to enemies.

Also to everyone suggesting ways to prevent one-shots on the player, remember that these types of things also apply to enemies, effectively preventing one shots on them as well.

Edited July 29, 2016 by NeithanDiniem

[IceColdHawk]

37 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

I think there was a really nice thread on shield thresholds or something like that a while back. If implemented it would mean that damage from a single shot would not carry over to health from your shields no matter how much excess damage that shot has leftover after your shields have broken, which would in turn mean that it would take a bare minimum of two shots to be killed, unless you were playing Inaros.

But let's be honest, if Inaros is getting killed in one shot, it's time to leave.

I thought it sounded like a good idea considering how absurd higher levels can get, but I have no idea where the thread vanished to.

Np

 

[ashrah]

i watch guy how try to go melee  vs lvl 250 toxin ancients and the u see qq in chat wow dude how he was kill me.....

[Redthirst]

3 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

And the Nova in that video was not fully modded, as seen by their health and shields. They were also not moving at all, and point blank to a shotgun. These kinds of situations are not common. Also while a Warframe can gear up, enemies scale endlessly up and end up having ridiculously higher amounts of hp and shields to counter the stupidly high damage potential players have.

And you think that Warframe doesn't have rules for target selection? you think that every single MMO out there has the same system that forces enemies to be predictable across every single one of them? you couldn't be more wrong. Every reference to "other MMOs' Isnt even remotely close to the experience I have had with over a dozen other MMOs when I ventured into high level content. Several were even just a few levels difference, not the difference as seen in this, and still had near instant death from enemy attacks.

I never once said that the counter to glass canons was one shot, please don't put words in my mouth to further your own argument. Nova has plenty of skills that would have made mincemeat of that 110 unit, but they did nothing and stood there to show that at close range a shotgun hurts.

That broken balance is exactly why DE is reluctant to release more primed mods and why it is taking them so long to work on enemy scaling and weapon scaling. It is a huge problem that needs an equally huge amount of work to fix. These videos like what OP has show absolutely nothing that isn't already known about high level enemies having the potential to one shot. Players have had that potential for far, FAR longer and far more universally compared to enemies.

Also to everyone suggesting ways to prevent one-shots on the player, remember that these types of things also apply to enemies, effectively preventing one shots on them as well.

Even with fully-modded HP and shields that Nova wouldn't survive for long. And bear in mind that it's just a basic enemy, a cannot fodder that in traditional MMO wouldn't be able to do much on it's own, relying solely on numbers. Stronger enemies like Bombards will kill you even faster.

And yet again, levels in Warframe doesn't matter. There is an incredibly huge difference between a rank 30 Warframe with no mods, and rank 30 Warframe with fully-ranked mods. So the perceived large difference in levels doesn't matter the least bit.

And while I argue against one-shots, I also don't agree that we need a one-shot protection. It won't solve anything. Part of the reason why we have such a sorry state of balance is because DE applied band-aids to their system, buffing either players or enemies, instead of reworking it back when it wasn't as broken. The only thing that can fix it right now is a complete rework, both for the enemy scaling, and for balance of Warframes(particularly the energy system).

One thing I also want to point out is that Warframe tries to be a horde shooter(rather unsuccessfully, but still), and in horde shooters players tend to be considerably stronger than individual enemies. This is mainly to address your point that if they are to add a one-shot protection, they will have to add one for enemies as well.

[NeithanDiniem]

2 hours ago, Redthirst said:

Even with fully-modded HP and shields that Nova wouldn't survive for long. And bear in mind that it's just a basic enemy, a cannot fodder that in traditional MMO wouldn't be able to do much on it's own, relying solely on numbers. Stronger enemies like Bombards will kill you even faster.

And yet again, levels in Warframe doesn't matter. There is an incredibly huge difference between a rank 30 Warframe with no mods, and rank 30 Warframe with fully-ranked mods. So the perceived large difference in levels doesn't matter the least bit.

And while I argue against one-shots, I also don't agree that we need a one-shot protection. It won't solve anything. Part of the reason why we have such a sorry state of balance is because DE applied band-aids to their system, buffing either players or enemies, instead of reworking it back when it wasn't as broken. The only thing that can fix it right now is a complete rework, both for the enemy scaling, and for balance of Warframes(particularly the energy system).

One thing I also want to point out is that Warframe tries to be a horde shooter(rather unsuccessfully, but still), and in horde shooters players tend to be considerably stronger than individual enemies. This is mainly to address your point that if they are to add a one-shot protection, they will have to add one for enemies as well.

Traditional MMOs typically don't have you facing endgame level enemies without at least telling you to be prepared for it. This nova is doing a fine job of showing you what not to do when facing a level 110 enemy in Warframe.

No, levels don't matter. Its the HP, Armor, Shields, and weapon damage of enemies that is attributed to those levels in infinite scaling missions or endgame sorties that matters. Since this is inherently tied to the level it is typical for people to only refer to the level as the key controlling factor to these 4 things. This Nova also did not have a build designed for taking hits, as seen by their low health. It has nothing to do with the mods then because they did not mod anything to increase their effective health. And then you look at the numbers, even when modded up, and there is in fact a considerable difference. No matter how you mod that Nova, their effective health will be paltry in comparison from a purely numbers standpoint. Few frames last long against them, including Nova, requiring you so not only not sit still, but increase your own survivability by your actions and equipment. This Nova had nothing additional for HP, so expectantly they would take less hits or damage in a hit to kill than they would if they modded up. They also did nothing to help prevent being shot despite that frame being designed to limit enemy fire rate, movement speed, and deal out mass AoE damage to large groups of targets that scales up in effectiveness as more enemies are present. Eventually though every frame will encounter an enemy like this guaranteed, no matter what your build is or how good of a player you are. That is how infinite enemy scaling works, and it is working as designed. Warframe is not and should not be a game like DarkSouls where you can complete it with nothing at all except skill (which in games like DarkSouls accounts purely for timing your invulnerability frames right to avoid heavy damage, which Warframe does not have). This is a game that forces you to gear up with good reason.

Plenty of horde shooters also have enemies that can dish out a ton of damage if you do not avoid their shots or manipulate the fight in your favor. They also make enemies get progressively harder and harder, including the trash mobs that this one is, as the mission continues. This is an instance of that on both accounts where this unit is dealing a lot of damage because typically this enemy would only be found in the deep end of an endless mission or in high level content that is designed to be difficult to pass without manipulating the fight in your favor. This nova did nothing to manipulate it to be more favorable, they just stood there to again show that enemies are working as intended, to hurt more when their level goes up.

[Redthirst]

9 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Traditional MMOs typically don't have you facing endgame level enemies without at least telling you to be prepared for it. This nova is doing a fine job of showing you what not to do when facing a level 110 enemy in Warframe.

No, levels don't matter. Its the HP, Armor, Shields, and weapon damage of enemies that is attributed to those levels in infinite scaling missions or endgame sorties that matters. Since this is inherently tied to the level it is typical for people to only refer to the level as the key controlling factor to these 4 things. This Nova also did not have a build designed for taking hits, as seen by their low health. It has nothing to do with the mods then because they did not mod anything to increase their effective health. And then you look at the numbers, even when modded up, and there is in fact a considerable difference. No matter how you mod that Nova, their effective health will be paltry in comparison from a purely numbers standpoint. Few frames last long against them, including Nova, requiring you so not only not sit still, but increase your own survivability by your actions and equipment. This Nova had nothing additional for HP, so expectantly they would take less hits or damage in a hit to kill than they would if they modded up. They also did nothing to help prevent being shot despite that frame being designed to limit enemy fire rate, movement speed, and deal out mass AoE damage to large groups of targets that scales up in effectiveness as more enemies are present. Eventually though every frame will encounter an enemy like this guaranteed, no matter what your build is or how good of a player you are.

This is not even the argument about Nova in particular, this is an argument about how ridiculous it is that you NEED to employ incredibly broken(and boring at the same time) mechanics(like permanent crowd control that can remove any challenge in the game) in order to defeat even the most basic enemy in the end-game. In current end-game, the game is either too hard(with even basic enemies killing you in seconds with no fair counterplay on your part) or too easy(when you use the "proposed" counterplay of perma-CC and disable every enemy in the room forever).

 

9 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

That is how infinite enemy scaling works, and it is working as designed.

Yeah, too bad it was designed terribly.

 

9 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Plenty of horde shooters also have enemies that can dish out a ton of damage if you do not avoid their shots or manipulate the fight in your favor. They also make enemies get progressively harder and harder, including the trash mobs that this one is, as the mission continues. This is an instance of that on both accounts where this unit is dealing a lot of damage because typically this enemy would only be found in the deep end of an endless mission or in high level content that is designed to be difficult to pass without manipulating the fight in your favor. This nova did nothing to manipulate it to be more favorable, they just stood there to again show that enemies are working as intended, to hurt more when their level goes up.

Plenty of horde shooters? Any examples? In games like Left4Dead series, Killing Floor series or Payday series(which could be considered the best games one can find in this sub-genre) you don't see common enemies one-shot you. Sure, that Fleshpound in Killing Floor can make a short work of you(and it still won't one-shot you if you have full HP and armor, mind you), but only a few of them spawn per wave. Tank in Left4Dead can kill you with one hit, but it's a giant hulking monstrosity that only appears once(in very rare cases twice) per level. Bulldozers in Payday games(mainly in Payday 2, first game was better in that regard) come close to one-shotting you, but they are still far from being basic enemies.

Now, lets see just how well Warframe is balanced using one example - Law of Retribution. The most common tactic in LoR is as follows:

• Control the entire map.
• Use Trinity modded for EV to have infinite energy.
• Don't kill enemies unless you absolutely have to(and if you have several CC, this "absolutely have to" will only happen with G3 and battery carriers on Stage 3).

And LoR isn't even that bad, because it at least has something that forces you outside core gameplay loop.

 

I hope you realize that people like you, who say that game is totally fine simply because you can still progress through it(even though "progressing" forces you to choose between incredible frustration of fighting enemies that are extremely overpowered and boredom that you encounter when you start to use extremely overpowered options of your own) are one of the reason it takes DE so much time to fix this broken mess.

[DSpite]

On 29/07/2016 at 4:28 PM, Epsik-kun said:

Ah, it's completely justified then. Should've played Ice Chroma I guess, my bad.

... Like I am fine with enemy of level 300 one-shotting people ...

An enemy Unit, armed with a weapon specifically designed for high damage at short range, while you were standing still (no damage mitigation from moving), and is FOUR TIMES your maximum level ... one shot you.

So please, explain to me at what level this is acceptable. Level 200 units? Level 500 units? Level 1000? I have a feeling you will say "level Infinity units should not one-shot me".

Are you seriously saying that if a level 1000 Dragon in a MMO breathed on you and one-shot you, you would complain to the Devs that it should not happen? Because seriously, that is what units level 100+ are "supposed" to be, ie, Dragons in MMO's, in a person size packet.

They purely exist in the same way that Level 1000 in Tetris might exist, where the screen fills with blocks and its Game Over as soon as you press Start. It exists so you can see how close you can get to level 1000, not to play TO level 1000 (or over).

EDIT: Just noticed you said "Level 300 is fine". No, it's still NOT fine, that is TEN TIMES OUR MAXIMUM LEVEL STILL. You don't get to pick some arbitrary point in space and say "that's ok with me" which is my whole point, because that place in space needs to make sense compared to the MAX level WE are, and tough units should be dangerous when they hit OUR level and even "trash units" that we clear a room at the time would have to be very very dangerous at say, twice our max level (ie 60) otherwise the work "level" does not mean anything.

Edited July 30, 2016 by DSpite

[Epsik-kun]

@DSpite, you didn't read the thread, did you?

[DSpite]

1 minute ago, Epsik-kun said:

@DSpite, you didn't read the thread, did you?

Still changes little. What you want is insane. Stop facing units that are have been known to scale in a broken way since the game came out, and expect to survive.

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, DSpite said:

Still changes little. What you want is insane. Stop facing units that are have been known to scale in a broken way since the game came out, and expect to survive.

Literally "stop playing the game - problem solved!" tier suggestion.

[DSpite]

18 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Literally "stop playing the game - problem solved!" tier suggestion.

NOT linear. A level 100 unit does literally 5 times the damage of a Level 30, and gets worse from there.

We only face that level of enemies in Raids, which is considered to be "the closest to end game we have so far", so please explain why I need to have any pity on players that want to hang around on normal maps, and farm with no consequences of being one-shotted, by starting on maps at levels 10?

Actions have consequences. The consequences of you trying to face God-Like units that hit like an orbital cannon - when you clearly KNOW that they do at level 300, apparently,  is just that "level 100" is not to your liking. Well, It makes sense to me, so does like of level 100 cancel your dislike of level 100?

You don't get to pick. The Developers get to pick, and apparently, they picked the range of "100+ ... ish". Since it's arbitrary either way, I fail to see what the problem is.

Oh, I do, at level 100 you probably don't get enough power-farming done in zero danger of getting killed.

EDIT:

Also, a one-off "one shot protection" would not work anyway.

We would have to have shield stages, like say, four, like Halo or The Division health bars, just to give us a very short - say 1 second - invulnerability stage when the stage "collapses" to allow us to get away from the cluster frak we obviously must be in to cause us to actually have been hit THAT hard to start with.

When a Maxed Iron Skin comes off from ANY strikes, that would be an indication that it's "here be Dragons territory" already.

Edited July 30, 2016 by DSpite

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, DSpite said:

Actions have consequences. The consequences of you trying to face God-Like units that hit like an orbital cannon - when you clearly KNOW that they do at level 300, apparently,  is just that "level 100" is not to your liking. Well, It makes sense to me, so does like of level 100 cancel your dislike of level 100?

You don't get to pick. The Developers get to pick, and apparently, they picked the range of "100+ ... ish". Since it's arbitrary either way, I fail to see what the problem is.

 

Oh, I do, at level 100 you probably don't get enough power-farming done in zero danger of getting killed.

Well, not exactly. In sorties, we get level 100 enemies or up, that can mow you down mono-shot style. For players with squishy frames like Banshee,  a single mistake, no matter how tiny it is, would directly mean getting downed. This is precisely why people are suggesting shield gates that protects us from OHKO for like a single second or so, in order to have slightly more forgiving play. Should the player retreat in time, that means the player has learnt from their mistake. Should the player refuse to retreat, they will be punished as usual. Even the best get it wrong sometimes. Giving a single second for us to react shouldn't be that big of a deal. 

[DSpite]

1 minute ago, Madho said:

Well, not exactly. In sorties, we get level 100 enemies or up, that can mow you down mono-shot style. For players with squishy frames like Banshee,  a single mistake, no matter how tiny it is, would directly mean getting downed. This is precisely why people are suggesting shield gates that protects us from OHKO for like a single second or so, in order to have slightly more forgiving play. Should the player retreat in time, that means the player has learnt from their mistake. Should the player refuse to retreat, they will be punished as usual. Even the best get it wrong sometimes. Giving a single second for us to react shouldn't be that big of a deal. 

I agree that A better system would be welcome, I added that at the end of mine rant to add something constructive.

I just don't understand why people IGNORE the word "level" and treat it as some vague guideline rather then a warning. No other game has units that are higher then the level of the player and DONT take every round from every magazine the entire team has to take down, while in Warframe, some people think that level 300 units is where it should start being dangerous.

I guess DE is to "blame" by the fact they never matched player levels to enemy levels in ANY way it seems.

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, DSpite said:

No other game has units that are higher then the level of the player and DONT take every round from every magazine the entire team has to take down,

Because we're stuck at level 30 when enemies are level 100+... somehow. I still don't really understand DE's reasoning behind this.

[Epsik-kun]

On 7/30/2016 at 7:18 AM, DSpite said:

We only face that level of enemies in Raids, which is considered to be "the closest to end game we have so far"

[citation needed]

 

Considered by who? All of level 3 sorties are guaranteed to have stronger enemies than Raids do. High level Nightmare missions have more dangerous enemies than Raids do. Current tier 4 Void (highest level nodes of the Void sector) have enemies that are much, much more dangerous than what Raids have.

And I think you don't get the main point here. I understand that you are afraid of high numbers and level 30 enemy for you is too much already. But this is you. Not me. If you want to do stupid math, and try to compare warframe levels to enemy levels, then take into an account the fact we have catalysts (double the levels, so 60, not 30 anymore), formas (double the levels for the polarity slot) and Aura slot that expands our level even further. And then we have all of this for our weapons. My Excalibur holds 112 levels of mods on himself, so if we go full retard here - he should take enemies of level 112 as easy as a non-potatoed rank 30 frame with no aura takes on level 30 enemies. Aka "zero challenge". Over 200 if we account for the weapon.

Try to read the actual thread - problem here that one-shots are spontaneous. You can't do a thing against them. Do you know why I have used level 300 as the example? Because on that level everything will one-shot you. Every projectile, every source of damage will do that.

On level 50 Void (starting level of the survival mode, for a moment), you will be completely fine with a 300/300 frame if you move around. Until you try to melee a Corrupted Crewman who decides that he should shoot you. Yeah, that will be hard, you can die if you make a mistake in literally split-seconds, but it will be because you've made a mistake. With the Crewman that mistake is "existing". If you're near him and he decides to shoot you - you're dead. Nothing you can do about it. He can spawn out of your field of view, walk out of the door and kill you. If there's a pack of them - you can't melee that pack, because one of them will shoot you and you will die. If you run not a 300/300 Nova, but a 720/300 one, the mission will become harder in general, but you will still be one-shotted by a Crewman.

If you run a Quick Thinking on top of that, you'll get one-shotted into the stagger and then killed during it, because Crewman has high attack speed.

You can run Grineer level 100 eximus Sortie with a 300/300 Nova. It will be tough, but it will be doable. You can die fast, but you won't get one-shotted. It will be a question of skill, not game design.

 

And then the obvious question "why not just nerf Crewman then?". Yeah, it's a good solution. It's even the right thing to do. However this is a constant problem, that keeps appearing time after time. There are Ballistas, Bombards, Napalms, Scorches, Techs, Bursas, Nullifiers, Crewmans, Battalysts and likely something else that can plainly one-shot you right in place. Some of them used to do this, some of them can do it even now. Some of them were re-balanced in terms of damage done, or were tweaked to have better telegraphing for their attacks (Corpus Tech is a good example of that). For instance, one of the Bursas on level 30 could've one-shotted Excalibur that can tank a missile from level 110 T4 Corrupted Bombard. That was fixed since then, but while it lasted it was not the best experience.

This problem is constant. If it is fixed - it reappears somewhere else. And while it would be good to actually balance the game properly - it is too hard to do in current state. There is too much of stuff to take into an account. Hence giving a workaround against that is the best possible solution in terms of work required/effect achieved.

[NeithanDiniem]

8 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

[citation needed]

 

Considered by who? All of level 3 sorties are guaranteed to have stronger enemies than Raids do. High level Nightmare missions have more dangerous enemies than Raids do. Current tier 4 Void (highest level nodes of the Void sector) have enemies that are much, much more dangerous than what Raids have.

And I think you don't get the main point here. I understand that you are afraid of high numbers and level 30 enemy for you is too much already. But this is you. Not me. If you want to do stupid math, and try to compare warframe levels to enemy levels, then take into an account the fact we have catalysts (double the levels, so 60, not 30 anymore), formas (double the levels for the polarity slot) and Aura slot that expands our level even further. And then we have all of this for our weapons. My Excalibur holds 112 levels of mods on himself, so if we go full retard here - he should take enemies of level 112 as easy as a non-potatoed rank 30 frame with no aura takes on level 30 enemies. Aka "zero challenge". Over 200 if we account for the weapon.

But if we don't go full retard, and instead try to read the actual thread - problem here that one-shots are spontaneous. You can't do a thing against them. Do you know why I have used level 300 as the example? Because on that level everything will one-shot you. Every projectile, every source of damage will do that.

On level 50 Void (starting level of the survival mode, for a moment), you will be completely fine with a 300/300 frame if you move around. Until you try to melee a Corrupted Crewman who decides that he should shoot you. Yeah, that will be hard, you can die if you make a mistake in literally split-seconds, but it will be because you've made a mistake. With the Crewman that mistake is "existing". If you're near him and he decides to shoot you - you're dead. Nothing you can do about it. He can spawn out of your field of view, walk out of the door and kill you. If there's a pack of them - you can't melee that pack, because one of them will shoot you and you will die. If you run not a 300/300 Nova, but a 720/300 one, the mission will become harder in general, but you will still be one-shotted by a Crewman.

If you run a Quick Thinking on top of that, you'll get one-shotted into the stagger and then killed during it, because Crewman has high attack speed.

You can run Grineer level 100 eximus Sortie with a 300/300 Nova. It will be tough, but it will be doable. You can die fast, but you won't get one-shotted. It will be a question of skill, not game design.

 

And then the obvious question "why not just nerf Crewman then?". Yeah, it's a good solution. It's even the right thing to do. However this is a constant problem, that keeps appearing time after time. There are Ballistas, Bombards, Napalms, Scorches, Techs, Bursas, Nullifiers, Crewmans, Battalysts and likely something else that can plainly one-shot you right in place. Some of them used to do this, some of them can do it even now. Some of them were re-balanced in terms of damage done, or were tweaked to have better telegraphing for their attacks (Corpus Tech is a good example of that). For instance, one of the Bursas on level 30 could've one-shotted Excalibur that can tank a missile from level 110 T4 Corrupted Bombard. That was fixed since then, but while it lasted it was not the best experience.

This problem is constant. If it is fixed - it reappears somewhere else. And while it would be good to actually balance the game properly - it is too hard to do in current state. There is too much of stuff to take into an account. Hence giving a workaround against that is the best possible solution in terms of work required/effect achieved.

Yes because having a single second on invulnerability is a surefire way to not die the next second after.

Your solution solves literally nothing. You yourself claimed that these enemies are the ones that rapid fire and they spawn in packs. What hope of survival do you honestly think you have if you chose to not use your abilities and CC? Nova has one of the largest range and effect CC skills in the game that triples with high damage to groups of enemies AND reduces attack rate. Sounds like slowing the hell out of every enemy in the room, reducing how quickly they attack, and damaging a lot of them that are bunched up is a perfectly useful way to deal with enemies like this. CC exists for this exact reason, it is why that mechanical tool was made available for you as a player. If you chose to not use it thats on your end, not ours. Your chosen play style to face-tank a high level enemy with melee and a squishy frame makes you the minority in this. Plenty of us play with those frames at those levels or see others do so and are perfectly fine at it because we realize that the game is designed in a way to make some play styles more difficult at higher enemy levels, such as melee spam at enemy level 100+ when using a squishier frame that by design survives better with ability use. Work as a team, build yourselves properly, work together (yes that includes reviving a fallen teammate, that IS a thing you can do), and don't be a fool using a melee against a target that is dangerous at close range. It is a "constant problem" because that is exactly how it is designed to work, to make higher level enemies be just as lethal as us players are with our high damage weapons that, as you so put it, easily out-damage them because we have forma, catalysts/reactors, and exilus which arbitrarily add to our effective levels faster than enemies scale.

If people aren't complaining that the game is too easy because enemies are killed too fast or they aren't challenging enough, they are whining that the game is too hard because enemies are killing us too fast and the enemies are too challenging. The bipolar community that is Warframe anymore is too damn annoying. You got the short end of this stick, DE designed it this way and it is working as intended.

[Chipawapa]

The second a heavy gunner one shots a warframe, it loses its identity as a heavy gunner, there is no reason for that thing to have a machine gun anymore, he might as well be a sniper. And that is the thing with those 3 hour long survival missions, at some point every enemy in the game loses its identity and turns into a sniper that one shots you. This is a very flawed system that does not work, the game was not designed for those extreme stats. Out of necessity to counter those walking blobs of stats we call enemies we have gotten extreme measures of our own in the form of constant invulnerability and invincibility. Constant Invulnerability and invincibility are not fun mechanics in any game, I will never understand how people can defend these stale mechanics so much. This game needs a lot of work on its combat.

[booty_hunter]

Should lube be placed in the shop for 175 plat?

[booty_hunter]

3 hours ago, booty_hunter said:

Should lube be placed in the shop for 175 plat?

not tryna be a smart &#! but tissues would be a nice addition as well

[Epsik-kun]

6 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

is a surefire way to not die the next second after

No one asks to be immortal. People want stop being obliterated instantly due to poor damage balancing of the enemies. Having shield-gate/health-gate with second/half a second of invincibility frames on collapsing will give people a chance to survive one-shots. You will have to be in the middle of taking measures against dying (going behind the cover/casting CC/killing the enemy) for you to survive. That's all one-shot protection is supposed to do.

It's one-shot protection, it protects against one-shots.

[grimdraken]

Thing is, even though your poor argument is based upon where you pick an arbitrary enemy level number, there is one shot protection.  It's not good, but it still exists.

Quick Thinking.  Sure, it's useless because you just end up being chain staggered, nonetheless, it's there.

And even sans the stagger, if you're in a situation where you need that, you're 9 times out of 10 dead anyway due to being under constant fire.  So any solution you propose will not be effective or suitable with the current game.  There'd need to be a massive core gameplay rework with enemies, fire rate, number of spawn, target acquisition etc.  Which isn't going to happen.

 

[Epsik-kun]

Anyway, you are wrong, you have no idea how the system (which already exists and is successful) is supposed to work, you have failed understanding what was already explained to you, and you've failed to understand the point of the change which was explicitly stated as the alternative to the thorough whole game level rework.

Think about it and what you're supposed to do with your life now. If you have any other personal picks with me - talk to a wall, it'll make you feel better.

Edited July 31, 2016 by NovusNova
Removed Hidden Quote

[Mr.Lube]

Or instead of just patching a problem, we fix it by making enemy scaling not stupid?