Let's think: Ducat Economy

[Kialandi]

3 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

UPDATE FOR BARO JULY 29th:

There are no changes yet to Baro's prices because Ducat savings haven't changed significantly since before Baro's last visit. We made a change to Prime Part pricing earlier this week, and we need to see the effect of that first. If the number of Ducats in the economy hasn't really changed, it doesn't make sense to change the Ducat prices yet. We're continuing to monitor and will make adjustments as needed moving forward. 
 

 

• 1) Why the Ducat savings haven't changed
  • Nothing really worth buying for veteran players
  • We expect changes, so we accumulate as much Ducats as we can
  • We don't know when will your "adjustements" happen or how significant they will be

 

• 2) Why you should lower the price of Baro Ki'Teer's items
  • It's more difficult to farm Ducats because each Void Fissure mission only gives us 1 Prime Part
    • Less Prime Parts = less Ducats = less Ducat spending
  • It's not possible to share Relics - we are burning through Relics 4x faster than we did with Void Keys
  •  
    • Squad of 4 players plays 10 Void Fissure missions within 60 minutes  - 40 Relics total (10 per player) - 10 rewards (40 rewards total)
    • Let's say we got 30 Ducats per reward that is 300 Ducats, Prisma Gorgon however costs 600 Ducats...that means another 40 Relics
    • Squad of 4 players plays 1 Void Survival mission for 60 minutes - 1 Void Key - 12 rewards (48 rewards total)
    • 20 Ducats per reward (we got some Formas) that's 240 Ducats
    • Summary: If we used 40 Void Keys we could possibly get 9600 Ducats. And that's HALF of the Relics you need to buy Prisma Gorgon.
  • We will eventually run out of Relics, when that happens we will have to farm Relics - usually Rotation B of Endless Missions (10+ more minutes) for one Relic
    • When this happens players will have to grind for Relics and it will be the worse and longest grind anyone ever saw
    • Because you can't get ANY Void Reward without a Relic
  • With the new Void system you destroyed main credit income for most players therefore you should either lower credit costs (for everything) or somehow add credit rewards 

 

• 3) How to make players spend their Ducats?
  • Give Baro something new and actually good (not skin or anything like that) - people would more likely buy new Prisma weapon instead of the low resolution Scimitar Skin
  • Let it be tradable without 1 million trade tax (just lower it)

 

You can't see the effects yet, because people still have enough Relics. But it's already happening.

_{Please, don't take too long DE...}

Edited July 29, 2016 by Kialandi
removed spoiler, edited for misunderstanding

[ashrah]

now is not worth farm for ducats really i have lot relics... but   i will use it only for new stuff...or if u need part x its better buy it..

[Tureynul]

Good thread. Don't think anyone who thinks prova vandal should be worth 400 ducats will be able to understand it.

[iGnome21]

Interesting points. I agree with all.

Personnaly i'm still refraining from using my relics since the system is broken. With a clanmate we made some test runs and we had different choices at the relic opening screen, bug or intended, we can't figure. And the fact that going alone or in full squad, getting only one part is total BS. At least if everyone should use a relic, make it add up to everyone in group.

Four relics, four reward for everyone, not having to choose the least crappy stuff.

As for ducats, again lack of information before making the adjustements. I would have spare some scindo blades that worth higher now and sell more crap while it was 30, now 15. Same thing with key->relic conversion, i would have used all my sabotage key before sotr BS.

They still have a chance to make it right, but better be fast cause i'm the last in my clan playing since this awful patch, and my patience will grow thin if this stays the way it is, and seems to get worse with recent "hotfixes".
 

[Kialandi]

1 minute ago, iGnome21 said:

Personnaly i'm still refraining from using my relics since the system is broken. With a clanmate we made some test runs and we had different choices at the relic opening screen, bug or intended, we can't figure. And the fact that going alone or in full squad, getting only one part is total BS. At least if everyone should use a relic, make it add up to everyone in group.

That is supposed to be a bug. I think they fixed it already.

And I'm glad you guys agree with me.

[woah_dude]

23 minutes ago, ashrah said:

now is not worth farm for ducats really i have lot relics... but   i will use it only for new stuff...or if u need part x its better buy it..

The news around  the block is - new stuff only from new relics and stuff u currently have is just "soon to be vaulted stuff" or Ducats trash. Enjoy :) 

[(PSN)lupowolfen]

54 minutes ago, Kialandi said:

 

• 1) Why the Ducat savings haven't changed
  • Nothing really worth buying for veteran players
  • We expect changes, so we accumulate as much Ducats as we can
  • We don't know when will your "adjustements" happen or how significant they will be

 

• 2) Why you should lower the price of Baro Ki'Teer's items
  • It's more difficult to farm Ducats because each Void Fissure mission only gives us 1 Prime Part
    • Less Prime Parts = less Ducats = less Ducat spending
  • It's not possible to share Relics - we are burning through Relics 4x faster than we did with Void Keys
    • 10 Void Fissure missions within 60 minutes  - 40 Relics - 10 rewards  40 Rewards
    • Let's say we got 30 Ducats per reward that is 300 Ducats, Prisma Gorgon however costs 600 Ducats...that means another 40 Relics 10 Relics ...............You might check your other numbers below.
    • Void Survival mission for 60 minutes - 1 Void Key - 12 rewards
    • 20 Ducats per reward (we got some Formas) that's 240 Ducats
    • Summary: If we used 40 Void Keys we could possibly get 9600 Ducats. And that's HALF of the Relics you need to buy Prisma Gorgon.
  • We will eventually run out of Relics, when that happens we will have to farm Relics - usually Rotation B of Endless Missions (10+ more minutes) for one Relic
    • When this happens players will have to grind for Relics and it will be the worse and longest grind anyone ever saw
    • Because you can't get ANY Void Reward without a Relic
  • With the new Void system you destroyed main credit income for most players therefore you should either lower credit costs (for everything) or somehow add credit rewards 

 

• 3) How to make players spend their Ducats?
  • Give Baro something new and actually good (not skin or anything like that) - people would more likely buy new Prisma weapon instead of the low resolution Scimitar Skin
  • Let it be tradable without 1 million trade tax (just lower it)

 

You can't see the effects yet, because people still have enough Relics. But it's already happening.

_{Please, don't take too long DE...}

Edited July 29, 2016 by (PS4)lupowolfen

[Kialandi]

Just now, (PS4)lupowolfen said:

54 minutes ago, Kialandi said:

• 10 Void Fissure missions within 60 minutes  - 40 Relics - 10 rewards  40 Rewards
  • Let's say we got 30 Ducats per reward that is 300 Ducats, Prisma Gorgon however costs 600 Ducats...that means another 40 Relics 10 Relics ...............You might check your other numbers below.
  • Void Survival mission for 60 minutes - 1 Void Key - 12 rewards
  • 20 Ducats per reward (we got some Formas) that's 240 Ducats
  • Summary: If we used 40 Void Keys we could possibly get 9600 Ducats. And that's HALF of the Relics you need to buy Prisma Gorgon.

• •  

Oh sorry, I rewrote it few times and now it doesn't say what it is supposed to say.

• Squad of 4 people does 10 Void Fissure missions within 60 minutes - each uses 10 Relics = 40 Relics total
  • each gets 1 reward per Relic = 10 rewards per player (40 rewards total)

 

• Squad of 4 people does 1 Void Survival mission for 60 minutes - squad uses 1 Void Key = 1 Void Key total
  • everyone gets 1 reward every 5 minutes = 12 rewards per player (48 rewards total)
  • Repeat this 39 times 

 

• Summary: 4 Relics = 1 Void Key

Is this better now?

 

[ashrah]

39 minutes ago, b0_on said:

The news around  the block is - new stuff only from new relics and stuff u currently have is just "soon to be vaulted stuff" or Ducats trash. Enjoy :) 

u are right i forget about that....now is even worse..  and now many players will depend from team a lot

[Kialandi]

42 minutes ago, b0_on said:

The news around  the block is - new stuff only from new relics and stuff u currently have is just "soon to be vaulted stuff" or Ducats trash. Enjoy :) 

Well I'm not sure if this will happen.

Since they would have to put 6 drops to the Relic.

It would be amazing to get all the new stuff in one Relic though...Farming just one type of Relic, getting new rewards and selling duplicates for plat.

[(PSN)lupowolfen]

1 hour ago, Kialandi said:

Oh sorry, I rewrote it few times and now it doesn't say what it is supposed to say.

• Squad of 4 people does 10 Void Fissure missions within 60 minutes - each uses 10 Relics = 40 Relics total
  • each gets 1 reward per Relic = 10 rewards per player (40 rewards total)

 

• Squad of 4 people does 1 Void Survival mission for 60 minutes - squad uses 1 Void Key = 1 Void Key total
  • everyone gets 1 reward every 5 minutes = 12 rewards per player (48 rewards total)
  • Repeat this 39 times 

 

• Summary: 4 Relics = 1 Void Key

Is this better now?

 

Yes good job.  I agree with your point too.  Being on PS4, I have only read about this, but it does seem like prime items as ducat fodder are going to be much harder to come by and thus Ducats should become more rare.  Unless of course they increase the ducat value per prime item or compensate by decreasing Baros item prices in ducats.

Edited July 29, 2016 by (PS4)lupowolfen

[BlazerEraser]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)lupowolfen said:

Yes good job.  I agree with your point too.  Being on PS4, I have only read about this, but it does seem like prime items as ducat fodder are going to be much harder to come by and thus Ducats should become more rare.  Unless of course they increase the ducat value per prime item or compensate by decreasing Baros item prices in ducats.

Not really...incidentally there are plenty of relics that have prime stuff that you won't need...i use those to farm traces...and junk.

[PopGligor]

I'm not sure yet whether obtaining prime junk has been drastically reduced, especially after this week's fixes, which boosted relic drop rates. Before we could have many keys and *nobody* burned all of their keys. Prime junk gain was 1 part per ~3-4 minutes on average. Right now it is the same.

The only people hurt by the current system as far as junk goes are the ones who never farmed void keys in the first place and only leeched off of other people's farm, as the current system forces everyone to farm. I still think that relic drop rate needs to be greater, because with the old system you needed 1 key to get upwards of 8 items, but even as it is, it's fine. 

Also, I would wish for people to stop saying the "4 keys for 1 item" thing, because it's this type of sensationalist tripe that people love now, but it is dishonest. 1 key 1 item. If you want a prime, you need to have a key of your own. It didn't use to be that way, but now it is.

I don't think there's problems with Baro's prices. From my perspective as someone who plays for free and sells prime junk for plat, rarely farms and treats fun as paramount, I haven't had trouble getting what I want from Baro. I rarely get all his mods (mostly because credits are the problem), and I don't buy beacons and boosters but what I want I can get, usually by stopping my prime junk sale 2-3 days before he shows up. Then, after he's gone, do it all over again for 10 days. 

[Inarticulate]

2 hours ago, (PS4)lupowolfen said:

Unless of course they increase the ducat value per prime item or compensate by decreasing Baros item prices in ducats.

Which they did.

Common drops are now worth 15 Ducats. Uncommon drops are now worth 45 Ducats. Rare drops are now worth 100 Ducats.

[NoobMaster068]

Great post. I agree with your points, OP.

DE needs to lower ducat and credit prices, or raise credit reward. And relic drop from eximus thing sounds good.

But DE said they'll monitor sales first, which means they'll wait until we ran out of relic, ducat and credit. But that won't be a problem for veteran player who have thousands of ducat and a few dozen million credit. Worse,they won't spend those because Baro doesn't bring new stuff -__-

Think about the new players, casual players, returning players and 'poor' players DE! Think about them!

P.S. Sorry for bad english and formating 

[5HV3N]

30 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

Which they did.

Common drops are now worth 15 Ducats. Uncommon drops are now worth 45 Ducats. Rare drops are now worth 100 Ducats.

It appears so. But in fact ducat income is still way smaller, since we used to have common drops that you could sell for 50 (like saryn or nyx systems).
And while 100 ducats for rare sounds hefty, keep in mind that rare drop is no more than 10% on radiant relic. While you can up it by doing "relic share" truth is that in time needed to farm traces and then gather party you'd probably farm more speedrunning whatever that can be rushed and is on the table. Problems will show up when people will start to run out of relics though...

As for thread: DE monitoring ducat prices etc is just a damage control.
It'll go on for some time, then when people will forget and then baro's prices will start to ramp up again.

[Kialandi]

7 hours ago, QuietBiro said:

I'm not sure yet whether obtaining prime junk has been drastically reduced, especially after this week's fixes, which boosted relic drop rates. Before we could have many keys and *nobody* burned all of their keys. Prime junk gain was 1 part per ~3-4 minutes on average. Right now it is the same.

The only people hurt by the current system as far as junk goes are the ones who never farmed void keys in the first place and only leeched off of other people's farm, as the current system forces everyone to farm. I still think that relic drop rate needs to be greater, because with the old system you needed 1 key to get upwards of 8 items, but even as it is, it's fine. 

Also, I would wish for people to stop saying the "4 keys for 1 item" thing, because it's this type of sensationalist tripe that people love now, but it is dishonest. 1 key 1 item. If you want a prime, you need to have a key of your own. It didn't use to be that way, but now it is.

I don't think there's problems with Baro's prices. From my perspective as someone who plays for free and sells prime junk for plat, rarely farms and treats fun as paramount, I haven't had trouble getting what I want from Baro. I rarely get all his mods (mostly because credits are the problem), and I don't buy beacons and boosters but what I want I can get, usually by stopping my prime junk sale 2-3 days before he shows up. Then, after he's gone, do it all over again for 10 days. 

And it's definitely not problem of leechers alone. What if I want to help my friend? I want to boost him a little. Too bad.

It's not sensationalist tripe and it is not dishonest. It's truth. Or do you disagree with how i counted it?

You kind of contradict yourself with first and third paragraph. Because it used to be "1 key for 4 items" and now it is "4 keys for 4 items" (looking at squads). That is why we could have many keys. Because we didn't have to use them.

You are probably a person with hours of free time. But I and a lot of other players can't farm Prime Junk all day every day.

I understand why you might disagree. But I'm looking at this problem in long term. I used about 500 Relics since the Update. That's 500% increase of what I used to use (I used about 100 Void Keys per month). And my Ducat income didn't increase by 500%. It's about the same as it used to be. 

I think that is significant change enough.

 

 

[D.Raiden]

12 hours ago, ashrah said:

now is not worth farm for ducats really i have lot relics... but   i will use it only for new stuff...or if u need part x its better buy it..

Same Luckily I only needed the prisma weapons and one of those mods but I had to spend all my ducats for it I had 900 left b4 the SoTR update so I a head start, but the way it looks now I will just be saving my ducats for a most have kinda thing no more skins and maybe even weapons.

Edited July 30, 2016 by D-Voidborn

[Nijyumensou]

And I sitting here with 100000ducat with 1000+ prime junk that turn into 100 ducat after SOTR. I am pretty sure that I am not the only one who is happy about it. 

[PopGligor]

8 hours ago, Kialandi said:

And it's definitely not problem of leechers alone. What if I want to help my friend? I want to boost him a little. Too bad.

It's not sensationalist tripe and it is not dishonest. It's truth. Or do you disagree with how i counted it?

You kind of contradict yourself with first and third paragraph. Because it used to be "1 key for 4 items" and now it is "4 keys for 4 items" (looking at squads). That is why we could have many keys. Because we didn't have to use them.

You are probably a person with hours of free time. But I and a lot of other players can't farm Prime Junk all day every day.

I understand why you might disagree. But I'm looking at this problem in long term. I used about 500 Relics since the Update. That's 500% increase of what I used to use (I used about 100 Void Keys per month). And my Ducat income didn't increase by 500%. It's about the same as it used to be. 

I think that is significant change enough.

It used to be 1 key for many items, especially in endless missions, but the gain was 1 item per 3-4 minutes. I know sabotage was an exception, but its keys were also rare. Now the gain is similar. I personally prefer mobile defense fissures even if they're slower than other missions, but they allow me to passively level up some mastery fodder. You just need more keys, as a sheer number.

The old system had a huge imbalance between key gain and key spending, resulting in people stockpiling hundreds of keys. There were trash keys that nobody did and at best were used for crafting dragon keys. I'm talking about things like T1 defense. Now, all relics are useful. If you get a relic, even if it is not the one you want, you'll get some use out of it. The old system wasn't like that and trash keys were very common.

Relic drop rate was boosted once already (especially in the derelict), and I think it needs another boost. Doing certain fissure missions like spy have a huge chance of rewarding a relic, making it basically a free item. The old system didn't allow for that and on top of it, there's a chance you can get 2 relics even. But I do think relic gain still needs a boost. 

With the old system, the majority of keys at least for me, remained unused. Now I keep healthy low amounts of relics, because I find all of them useful at least to a degree.