Rework Melee.

[Nazrethim]

Hello everyone!

Today I want to suggest a change of the SwordAlone gameplay into a two-key melee with more options. This could be implemented in two ways:

-Remove Stances and make all this stuff available by default or

-Expand Stances to include all this stuff.

 

Basic combo: E>E>E

Heavy basic combo (higher damage, slower): R>R>R

Combo 1 (high single target damage): E>E>R

Combo 2 (90-180º AoE attack with average damage): E>R>E

Uppercut combo (ragdolls the target upwards, locks the player in place): RMB+Back+E

Uppercut (jump) combo (ragdolls the target upwards and causes the user to jump into air): RMB+Back+R

Lunge combo (low damage, multi hit "long range" gap closer): RMB+Forward+E>E*>E

Charge combo (high damage, "short range" gap closer): RMB+Forward+R>R*>R

Aerial Combo (while in air, fast attack combo with high damage&momentum final hit): E>E`>E^

Aerial Combo 2 (while in air, fast attack combo with knockdown to pin the enemy to the ground then follow with a ground slam): E>R`>R^

Slide combo (all attacks are counted as Slide attacks, fast recovery): Slide+E>E>E

Slide heavy combo (Slide combo with heavy attakcs and slam finisher): Slide+E>R>R

Wall Attack (Attack while wall latching, hits nearby enemies): E>E>E

Wall Lunge (Propel yourself with high momentum and damage in the direction you are aiming, knocks down enemies hit): R while wall latching

Counter strike (Stagger an enemy in front of you): RMB+R+E

The ` ^ and * symbols mean the inputs are interchangeable so you could switch combo mid combo

Edited August 1, 2016 by Nazrethim

[Evanescent]

Going to have to say nay to the back combos. Those never work well.

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Going to have to say nay to the back combos. Those never work well.

Fair point. Though at least these are at the start of the combo (which means one would only move one step back if timed properly) instead of the middle xD

[Anatolius]

Ok

But why.

Not that I dont care but id like a reasoning.

[Evanescent]

4 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Fair point. Though at least these are at the start of the combo (which means one would only move one step back if timed properly) instead of the middle xD

Still would give me nightmares, as well as make for absymal usage >:(

I like the idea of having small short combos that are simple and can be chained in any way you want.

Suddenly it becomes more about player creativity than playing a rythm game with the 'E' button.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Evanescent

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Evanescent said:

Still would give me nightmare, as well as make for absymal usage >:(

Fun, throw a bunch of butchers up in the air then follow them for an aerial combo, or to hit those godam ospreys that like bob just above your blades.

 

1 minute ago, Anatolius said:

Ok

But why.

Not that I dont care but id like a reasoning.

General:

+Adds flavor

+Makes melee practical

+Removes the need of a stance / Expands the Stance system

+Works with parkour 2.0

PvE:

+You can hit the godam ospreys that like to fly just above the reach of your blades

+You can kill mobs with style

Conclave:

+Makes melee a skill-play rather than E-spam

+You can fight other players with style

[Drufo]

I'd rather keep the current stances and change them to work with 2 keys as you suggested, instead of one key. 

[Nocturnex]

Thanks for this post. I was gonna write a thread on this myself but I'm glad it was you that beat me to it. I mostly play Conclave these days while I wait for The War Within. Recently, Conclave Stances were introduced to make Melee quick and able to close gap with opponents faster. As much as I welcomed these new stances, it is nothing but a band-aid to fix a more, broader issue. Melee needs to have the same fluidity as the Advanced Movement System(Parkour 2.0) or be in sync with it. Right now, it is limited to a two-dimensional plane and it is harder to cancel moves mid-combo. Implementation of this is beyond me, right now. However, I wish for DE to have a say in this matter because, as much as I am astounded by the extraordinary changes to the entire scope of the game, Melee is the only remnant that lingers, control-wise and gameplay-wise, from a old way of fighting and it needs to be addressed.

 

P.S. Hell, I cannot remember killing anything with a Wall Attack, Human or A.I.

[Nazrethim]

19 minutes ago, -cS-Nocturnex said:

-snip-

Glad you like it.

Wall attacks used to be good, back in parkour 1, but since Parkour 2.0 was implemented they lost all momentum.

[Hopeisdead]

Nah all it needs is one or two more keys in a combo. So basically just add heavy and light attack and slam* to key-bounds. Done

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Hopeisdead said:

Nah all it needs is one or two more keys in a combo. So basically just add heavy and light attack and slam* to key-bounds. Done

This is exactly that. I just added a few other gimmicks to make melee work with parkour 2.0 (wall attacks, aerial combos, slide combos, etc)

[joe42]

This is looking like some devil may cry stuff here lol.

[Epsik-kun]

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Makes melee practical

It makes melee massively impractical.

Look, I love DMC myself, but 90% of these combo suggestions would be lying collecting dust for almost all players. Warframe is a horde based game. It isn't about killing stuff in style and enjoying the process, it's about killing stuff as efficient as possible. 

Aerial juggling will never be used in serious gameplay, as locking yourself in one place will result in enemies obliterating you.
Counterhits will never get used, because they aren't used already.
Multiple variations of the same combo will never get used, as all people will stick with one of them.

Basically, the most variety you can allow in current system to make people actually switch combos would be:

1) High AoE combo;
2) Single target combo with massively higher (several times at least) dps.

That's all. 
Everything else would only be used if there's some practical merit that's otherwise unachievable - finishers, forced procs, knockdowns. However even then most of the time these "merits" won't outweigh the effectiveness of pure combos and will collect dust most of the time.

[Nazrethim]

10 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

It makes melee massively impractical.

Look, I love DMC myself, but 90% of these combo suggestions would be lying collecting dust for almost all players. Warframe is a horde based game. It isn't about killing stuff in style and enjoying the process, it's about killing stuff as efficient as possible. 

Aerial juggling will never be used in serious gameplay, as locking yourself in one place will result in enemies obliterating you.
Counterhits will never get used, because they aren't used already.
Multiple variations of the same combo will never get used, as all people will stick with one of them.

Basically, the most variety you can allow in current system to make people actually switch combos would be:

1) High AoE combo;
2) Single target combo with massively higher (several times at least) dps.

That's all. 
Everything else would only be used if there's some practical merit that's otherwise unachievable - finishers, forced procs, knockdowns. However even then most of the time these "merits" won't outweigh the effectiveness of pure combos and will collect dust most of the time.

That's like saying that Ash is only good for Bladestorm due to lazy players building for that meta and not bothering to do anything else. Cheesy players will stick to the efficient kill moves, players who actually enjoy the game will have more options to have fun. The problem with current stances is that doing the same 2 combos over and over is boring as f*ck, it's like standing on a crate spamming one button. If DE allowed to use two melee weapons or equip two stances to swap mid combat to spice things up then a melee rework may not be necessary. The game should have Fun as a priority, Meta as a second.

[Epsik-kun]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

The game

It's a horde-based game. Go launch DMC 4 at LDK difficulty and try being stylish. You'll notice how "satisfying" it is.

"Cheezy" is usually a buzzword from player who doesn't want to get good. These players will stick to one or two combos first and will whine about the system being over-complicated. They'll be right though.

There's "fun" and there's "merit". If there's no "merit" it's far from being as "fun" as it should be."Fun" without "merit" is highly subjective and should be the baseline for game balancing.

Even if we take DMC with its extreme combat system, you'll notice that there are bits of "merit" everywhere: juggling disables single enemy, aerial combos protect you from being surrounded and taking hits, just-frames increase your damage output, jump cancel makes your juggle and aerial potential indefinite, distortion increase damage output, weapon/combo switching increases Style meter hence drops.

Warframe will offer none of these.

And no, having "the same 2 combos" isn't "boring as f*ck". With a rifle you have only one option. Having two instead of one is two times more fun. We also have slides, slams and aerial attacks. The latter two are quite meh, but nevertheless options. What's the point of having 62 different combos when 90% of your enemies will die in one-two hits max? To play different animations? Should we make every single melee battle prolonged then? Then what's the objective point of going melee then? Fun? Fun is subjective - there are many people who use melee and like for it not only to be "fun" but to be "viable".

Current system doesn't need a "rework", especially not in DMC direction. Current system needs a lot of polishing, that's true, but not a rework.

[Nazrethim]

4 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Current system doesn't need a "rework", especially not in DMC direction. Current system needs a lot of polishing, that's true, but not a rework.

Ways can be "polished":

-Two-key melee to make stances with unreliable animations or high attack speed easier to do the alternative combos. (Pointed Wind, Brutal Tide are examples)

-Separate Channeling from Energy for good, perhaps a Stamina system that only affects Channeling and nothing else.

-Improve Blocking and the Parry to be actually viable

-Useful Wall Attacks (which mostly need their old momentum back) and Aerial Attacks.

- More combos to avoid getting bored with the same 2 combos

-Maybe gunstances to replace quickmelee for hit+shots kind of like the Gunslinger stance in DMC? Would work with the 'single button' melee has now, so both systems could stay.

 

Don't understimate Rule of Cool. There's a reason FashionFrame is considered "endgame" by many.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

On 8/1/2016 at 10:10 AM, Nazrethim said:

Hello everyone!

Today I want to suggest a change of the SwordAlone gameplay into a two-key melee with more options. This could be implemented in two ways:

-Remove Stances and make all this stuff available by default or

-Expand Stances to include all this stuff.

 

Basic combo: E>E>E

Heavy basic combo (higher damage, slower): R>R>R

Combo 1 (high single target damage): E>E>R

Combo 2 (90-180º AoE attack with average damage): E>R>E

Uppercut combo (ragdolls the target upwards, locks the player in place): RMB+Back+E

Uppercut (jump) combo (ragdolls the target upwards and causes the user to jump into air): RMB+Back+R

Lunge combo (low damage, multi hit "long range" gap closer): RMB+Forward+E>E*>E

Charge combo (high damage, "short range" gap closer): RMB+Forward+R>R*>R

Aerial Combo (while in air, fast attack combo with high damage&momentum final hit): E>E`>E^

Aerial Combo 2 (while in air, fast attack combo with knockdown to pin the enemy to the ground then follow with a ground slam): E>R`>R^

Slide combo (all attacks are counted as Slide attacks, fast recovery): Slide+E>E>E

Slide heavy combo (Slide combo with heavy attakcs and slam finisher): Slide+E>R>R

Wall Attack (Attack while wall latching, hits nearby enemies): E>E>E

Wall Lunge (Propel yourself with high momentum and damage in the direction you are aiming, knocks down enemies hit): R while wall latching

Counter strike (Stagger an enemy in front of you): RMB+R+E

The ` ^ and * symbols mean the inputs are interchangeable so you could switch combo mid combo

Wwwoooohhh!

I think the system from lunaro would work well. The button that attracts the ball would work on enemies to allow you to parkour on and off of them as well (like shown in a devstream long ago).

Lunaro is the perfect system, they just won't bring it to pve because they think melee in pve is fine as is.

[Nazrethim]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

they just won't bring it to pve because they think melee in pve is fine as is.

I think they are making PvE melee more like PvP melee. The problem in PvP with melee was the animation lock and convoluted and dum combos (Brutal Tide and Pointed Wind pause and hold combos respectively, that are near impossible to do. And the 'backward' and 'forward' combos messing up). The Conclave stances are highly mobile, have little to no animation lock , focus on covering ground and have simple combo imputs. Soon after their release comes the Spinning Needle Stance (along with Okina) that has exactly the same properties. Kind of like how the pvp crowd developed a high mobility playstyle while the pve crowd was sitting on draco and DE gave us parkour 2.0

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

6 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I think they are making PvE melee more like PvP melee. The problem in PvP with melee was the animation lock and convoluted and dum combos (Brutal Tide and Pointed Wind pause and hold combos respectively, that are near impossible to do. And the 'backward' and 'forward' combos messing up). The Conclave stances are highly mobile, have little to no animation lock , focus on covering ground and have simple combo imputs. Soon after their release comes the Spinning Needle Stance (along with Okina) that has exactly the same properties. Kind of like how the pvp crowd developed a high mobility playstyle while the pve crowd was sitting on draco and DE gave us parkour 2.0

Well PvP is something I havnt played in a while, but there is nothing I hate more than repeatedly pressing the E button. In either part of the game. The two used to be very similar, then PvP got more attention...any change is welcome, your ideas are sound amazing

Not important

The only weapons it makes no difference in for me are the anku and venka, which have such low damage (but I still love them) that you are better off pushing attack speed to the limit and spamming the same attack as fast as possible. Venka I just slam attack every enemy and kill them with finisher damage mods. The finisher animation ends pretty quickly with increased melee speed. Those are the only two for me.

.

[Nazrethim]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Well PvP is something I havnt played in a while, but there is nothing I hate more than repeatedly pressing the E button. In either part of the game. The two used to be very similar, then PvP got more attention...any change is welcome, your ideas are sound amazing

Well, PvP got attention for Lunaro, now the changes made since then have been just a few stat tweaks and nothing else. You should try the Conclave stances, I can give you a few stances for free so you can try them (in solo if you don't feel like doing pvp) and see how they work. Sadly they aren't usable in PvE, but players (including me) have already asked to make them usable.