Umbra Warframes (Discussion Thread)

[BornWithTeeth]

Hmmm. The hypothesis that Stalker + Acolytes were the hand of the Executors and that's where 'Umbra' comes from is an interesting one, especially in what it might mean for the ranks of Tenno, and whether and how the mass Transference and brainwashing took place......but it has some flaws to account for.

 

Stalker's own Codex entry has him witnessing the slaughter at the Terminus. He described himself there as a "low Guardian". Now, while that does not preclude him being some kind of tele-operated warrior like the Tenno, as is hinted by the Second Dream, it would contradict the idea of him being a high ranking secret operative of the council of Executors.

 

The other, albeit weaker, objection is that the Acolytes do not appear to be comrades or direct subordinates of the Stalker so much as cultists of the Stalker. They only popped up after Second Dream, operating Warframes which looked to have been crudely modified to mimic the Stalker 'frame, speaking like a cross between students and worshipers of the Stalker. They didn't come across like an ancient elite cadre of special ops, is what I'm saying.

 

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

I don't tend to like surprises, not because the surprise is horrible, but because people are usually so bad at constructing them that I'm usually left underwhelmed and I start wondering why the surprise was one in the first place. I felt that way with the second dream. I was like "oh, so I got a kid now... ok" and it'll probably just be like "oh, Umbra's ___... ok". That's why I didn't really care for it being a "secret". I just rolled my eyes. 

[BornWithTeeth]

26 minutes ago, (XB1)ToothlessApollo said:

I don't tend to like surprises, not because the surprise is horrible, but because people are usually so bad at constructing them that I'm usually left underwhelmed and I start wondering why the surprise was one in the first place. I felt that way with the second dream. I was like "oh, so I got a kid now... ok" and it'll probably just be like "oh, Umbra's ___... ok". That's why I didn't really care for it being a "secret". I just rolled my eyes. 

That is one perspective, but the majority of players, even those who had an idea of what was coming, still thought Second Dream was very well done as a reveal, well written, well staged. It's possible to see the twist coming and still very much appreciate how it's done and what it means.

 

EDIT:

I'm doing here what I cautioned against many times during the thread, which is to say, I'm speaking for a majority. However, unlike the folks to whom I so responded, I do have several polls backing me up, the most recent of which is still open heavily in favour of the Second dream reveal.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[Deshiel]

One of my own personal theories about Umbras is that they do not use somatic link to control warframes and they are actual tennos in suits. I'd like to think that Umbras are a different branch of warframes created and maintained differently.

Imagine that the orokin had two lead Warframe developer factions.

One still wanted to protect the kids so they created the somatic link to avoid tenno casualties.

Other one didn't care about this. They wanted thier warframes to run on max potential no matter the cost so they put the kids into the suit.

 

[(PSN)mar308cos]

1 hour ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

so i wonder if they are autonomous, or like the original darksector warframes (nyx nemisis, excal proto) which are worn and possibly bonded/fused to an low gaurdian? 

I'm not sure of the theory of to be autonomous, I think their operators are still alive but were manipulated by the executors.

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

10 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

One of my own personal theories about Umbras is that they do not use somatic link to control warframes and they are actual tennos in suits. I'd like to think that Umbras are a different branch of warframes created and maintained differently.

Imagine that the orokin had two lead Warframe developer factions.

One still wanted to protect the kids so they created the somatic link to avoid tenno casualties.

Other one didn't care about this. They wanted thier warframes to run on max potential no matter the cost so they put the kids into the suit.

 

Same theory here aswell, but that may mean no revives.....

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

3 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

One of my own personal theories about Umbras is that they do not use somatic link to control warframes and they are actual tennos in suits. I'd like to think that Umbras are a different branch of warframes created and maintained differently.

Imagine that the orokin had two lead Warframe developer factions.

One still wanted to protect the kids so they created the somatic link to avoid tenno casualties.

Other one didn't care about this. They wanted thier warframes to run on max potential no matter the cost so they put the kids into the suit.

 

that goes along with the darksector concept nemesis and proto 

i can see that maybe somewhere scientists diverged and created two variations

but the whole point to the link and separate warframe/operator locations was to keep the tenno working . kill and us and we rise again as hunhow stated it made us a very effective weapon, a warrior that could not be slain

but maybe more drastic or less PC experiments were done to create the umbras

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Hmmm. The hypothesis that Stalker + Acolytes were the hand of the Executors and that's where 'Umbra' comes from is an interesting one, especially in what it might mean for the ranks of Tenno, and whether and how the mass Transference and brainwashing took place......but it has some flaws to account for.

 

Stalker's own Codex entry has him witnessing the slaughter at the Terminus. He described himself there as a "low Guardian". Now, while that does not preclude him being some kind of tele-operated warrior like the Tenno, as is hinted by the Second Dream, it would contradict the idea of him being a high ranking secret operative of the council of Executors.

 

The other, albeit weaker, objection is that the Acolytes do not appear to be comrades or direct subordinates of the Stalker so much as cultists of the Stalker. They only popped up after Second Dream, operating Warframes which looked to have been crudely modified to mimic the Stalker 'frame, speaking like a cross between students and worshipers of the Stalker. They didn't come across like an ancient elite cadre of special ops, is what I'm saying.

 

im not so much saying they are a special elite , but more they were made specifically as executioners. servants that had a role and were known, they were the low gaurdians, tenno forced into basic roles as servants and assigned a task, not black ops , but simple executioners

Spoiler

why let people like balas dirty their own hands , when they could command something like the stalker to slay the guilty party?

and good point, if they are fanatics that just worship/study under him how did they gain similar power variations in their frames? 

if acolytes are not direct stalker types are tey new models ? and if so are they tenno or some new fabrication ?  wish there was lore tied to them.. did the codex of any have info? 

 

[EmptyDevil]

39 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

One of my own personal theories about Umbras is that they do not use somatic link to control warframes and they are actual tennos in suits. I'd like to think that Umbras are a different branch of warframes created and maintained differently.

Imagine that the orokin had two lead Warframe developer factions.

One still wanted to protect the kids so they created the somatic link to avoid tenno casualties.

Other one didn't care about this. They wanted thier warframes to run on max potential no matter the cost so they put the kids into the suit.

 

I have a somewhat similar thought but it's not specifically related to Umbra. I don't particularly think the actual Tenno body is wearing the armor in a literal sense.

Something that kinda sticks out to me since The Second Dream is what Ballas said:

"...it's about the other rejects we consigned to Lua a few years ago. They're calling it... Transference."

I found it odd that he used the words "the other rejects", so i did some musing and wondered if he meant something else as well. What if some of the earlier experiments with Transference literally transferred the Tenno mind into the surrogate body, instead of projecting it? These rejects wouldn't be the best for immortal soldiers because they don't have a way to return to their original body upon death. The surrogate is their new body now.

It would basically look like this:

Failed Transference

Original body > Link > Surrogate with Tenno(can't return to original body)

Successful Transference

Original body <> Link <> <Surrogate with Tenno(original body still accessible)

 

I'm thinking this might be the nature of some Warframes, if not all. It could fit with this as well:

"All your dread-long life, you've waited for this moment. But you're asking yourself, 'Was I one of these wretched things?' You know the answer. You still hate them. You still hate yourself."

Makes more sense than the salty stalker-killed-his-operator theory too.

Basically a Tenno could wear the Warframe(it's fancy outer layer), but they would be whatever the surrogate is underneath.

 

[Deshiel]

1 hour ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

 

but the whole point to the link and separate warframe/operator locations was to keep the tenno working . kill and us and we rise again as hunhow stated it made us a very effective weapon, a warrior that could not be slain

 

Yes ofcourse. The reasoning is fine. But if there indeed were different warframe making branches/factions. Then they followed thier own (different) path. Did/built things differently. Had different beliefs. So somatic link warframes made a perfect sense in terms of effectiveness and they even became the TOP product (given how all of us play as warframes powered by somatic) But if there were different branches. If Umbra was indeed a different branch, then it would mean that thier warframe would be different. Would represent and feature other qualities and beliefs and one of such things might be the way its being used/piloted. ( since they would be warframes based on a different recipe)

Think of it like this.

Somatic link warframes are developed by Nvidia

Umbra warframes could be developed by AMD. The basic concept of a warframe would be the same to both of them, but each company would build them differently. Make them work differently. So like. Nvidia will give you somatic link to control your warframe. Meanwhile AMD will want you to wear it. 

Both will have some strong reasoning behind why is thier way better.

And you will defend the one you agree with.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Deshiel

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Just now, Deshiel said:

Umbra warframes could be developed by AMD. The basic concept of a warframe would be the same to both of them, but each company would buy them differently. Make them work differently. So like. Nvidia will give you somatic link to control your warframe. Meanwhile AMD will want you to wear it. 

 

yeah that sounds a lot like the the darksector games ..but i thought de was stating it wouldnt work that way ? 

both nemesis and proto were worn armor so it is a possible scenario 

we basically stuck a wireless system in them and connected the operators via avatar pods 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

just noticed that the nemesis has a lotus symbol on its shoulder? connection? 

[BornWithTeeth]

5 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

Yes ofcourse. The reasoning is fine. But if there indeed were different warframe making branches/factions. Then they followed thier own (different) path. Did/built things differently. Had different beliefs. So somatic link warframes made a perfect sense in terms of effectiveness and they even became the TOP product (given how all of us play as warframes powered by somatic) But if there were different branches. If Umbra was indeed a different branch, then it would mean that thier warframe would be different. Would represent and feature other qualities and beliefs and one of such things might be the way its being used/piloted. ( since they would be warframes based on a different recipe)

Think of it like this.

Somatic link warframes are developed by Nvidia

Umbra warframes could be developed by AMD. The basic concept of a warframe would be the same to both of them, but each company would build them differently. Make them work differently. So like. Nvidia will give you somatic link to control your warframe. Meanwhile AMD will want you to wear it. 

Both will have some strong reasoning behind why is thier way better.

And you will defend the one you agree with.

Given what's actually being talked about, I feel that using two different manufacturers of graphics cards as the example is a little lacking in depth.

 

Warframe as surrogate combat body vs Warframe as power armour is a wildly different comparison than graphics card A vs graphics card B.

 

One suggestion is of a surgically implanted/cybernetically controlled suit of power armour, designed to shape the wearer's inherent Void power. The other is of a completely separate, teleoperated combat body, controlled via a faster than light neural interface. The differences between somatic Warframe vs permanent implantation Warframe would go just a bit deeper than "One of them has a Tenno inside it."

 

One of these things is not like the other. These things are basically the pinnacles of two separate technology trees altogether.

[Deshiel]

1 minute ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

just noticed that the nemesis has a lotus symbol on its shoulder? connection? 

Dark Sector was completely reimagined during production. Warframe is following Dark Sector's original concept. The lotus sign had a meaning in the scraped version of Dark Sector, but in the actual game it was portrayed differently. Like imagine you make a game and you create this nasty symbol for a faction. Your boss tells you that the faction won't appear in the final game but the symbol you made is pretty neat so they will use it for something else. 

The part about the lotus symbol being recycled in dark sector is just my theory tho.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 minute ago, Deshiel said:

Dark Sector was completely reimagined during production. Warframe is following Dark Sector's original concept. The lotus sign had a meaning in the scraped version of Dark Sector, but in the actual game it was portrayed differently. Like imagine you make a game and you create this nasty symbol for a faction. Your boss tells you that the faction won't appear in the final game but the symbol you made is pretty neat so they will use it for something else. 

The part about the lotus symbol being recycled in dark sector is just my theory tho.

if its just recycled thats interesting. 

i know warframe is a alternative separate universe from darksector. but was wondering if that was a clue to the combat armor theory

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Given what's actually being talked about, I feel that using two different manufacturers of graphics cards as the example is a little lacking in depth.

 

Warframe as surrogate combat body vs Warframe as power armour is a wildly different comparison than graphics card A vs graphics card B.

 

One suggestion is of a surgically implanted/cybernetically controlled suit of power armour, designed to shape the wearer's inherent Void power. The other is of a completely separate, teleoperated combat body, controlled via a faster than light neural interface. The differences between somatic Warframe vs permanent implantation Warframe would go just a bit deeper than "One of them has a Tenno inside it."

 

One of these things is not like the other. These things are basically the pinnacles of two separate technology trees altogether.

ya thats a bit more indepth 

[Deshiel]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

if its just recycled thats interesting. 

i know warframe is a alternative separate universe from darksector. but was wondering if that was a clue to the combat armor theory

ya thats a bit more indepth 

Who was I supposed to compare it to? Doctors vs. Witches? Medicine vs. Magic?

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

5 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

Who was I supposed to compare it to? Doctors vs. Witches? Medicine vs. Magic?

i dont know o. o 

but in my experience as an robotics engineer , most things come in threes 

there are normally three tree variant paths to consider we know two...so whats the third option? 

 

[Deshiel]

1 minute ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

i dont know o. o 

but in my experience as an robotics engineer , most things come in threes 

there are normally three tree variant paths to consider we know two...so whats the third option? 

 

Third variant would be autopilot warframes I guess.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 minute ago, Deshiel said:

Third variant would be autopilot warframes I guess.

so we have 

Warframe as surrogate combat body

 Warframe as power armour 

warframe as autonomous drone 

[BornWithTeeth]

29 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

Who was I supposed to compare it to? Doctors vs. Witches? Medicine vs. Magic?

Well, if you want to keep it in terms of personal computing.......

 

What do you need? You need a way to work on your files using a personal computer, in a way which allows you to do so while on the move.

 

Company A offers you a personal laptop which has a big chunk of onboard data storage in the form of a large solid state hard drive. This thing is an amazing laptop. It's frigging great. Terebytes of onboard storage, great software packages.

 

Company B offers you a personal data terminal which looks similar to the laptop. However, this machine has almost no onboard data storage. Instead, what it has is the most hardcore wireless modem of all time, forever, all time. For. Ever. We're talking, like, "And God said 'Let there be Bandwidth.' And there was, and God saw that it was good."

 When you use this computer, all of your files are kept in a highly secure encrypted cloud drive, and all of your changes are always immediately backed up to the cloud. When you need to use a software package to modify data, you're doing so remotely via a client. Very little of it is kept onboard the laptop.

 

If Laptop A is such a good laptop, what's the benefit of using Company B's laptop? The primary benefit is that no matter what happens to the laptop, your data is safe. Someone tries to pull its hard drive? Hah, joke's on them, the data's not there. Someone tries to fry the hard drive to erase your data? Wow, good job frying a remote terminal, the data is backed up in a secure storage which you can't destroy.

 

 

 

This, I feel, is a better comparison.

 

We'll leave off on any discussion of whether method A (i.e. a Tenno cybernetically melded with a suit) actually produces superior results, because

A. It's based on completely unproven speculation which mostly always (always!) seems to stem from people trying to find ways to insist that Second Dream isn't how all the Tenno work, there have to be Tenno wearing Warframes as suits, amirite guys, there have to be.

B. Even if something like this happened, there's nothing to actually say that this is how Stalker works.

C. Even if something like this is true, and even if Stalker is one of those Warframe models, Stalker's not actually superior. He's a scrub. I kick his head in whenever he tries to put the frighteners on me.

[Deshiel]

13 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Well, if you want to keep it in terms of personal computing.......

 

What do you need? You need a way to work on your files using a personal computer, in a way which allows you to do so while on the move.

 

Company A offers you a personal laptop which has a big chunk of onboard data storage in the form of a large solid state hard drive. This thing is an amazing laptop. It's frigging great. Terebytes of onboard storage, great software packages.

 

Company B offers you a personal data terminal which looks similar to the laptop. However, this machine has almost no onboard data storage. Instead, what it has is the most hardcore wireless modem of all time, forever, all time. For. Ever. We're talking, like, "And God said 'Let there be Bandwidth.' And there was, and God saw that it was good."

 When you use this computer, all of your files are kept in a highly secure encrypted cloud drive, and all of your changes are always immediately backed up to the cloud. When you need to use a software package to modify data, you're doing so remotely via a client. Very little of it is kept onboard the laptop.

 

If Laptop A is such a good laptop, what's the benefit of using Company B's laptop? The primary benefit is that no matter what happens to the laptop, your data is safe. Someone tries to pull its hard drive? Hah, joke's on them, the data's not there. Someone tries to fry the hard drive to erase your data? Wow, good job frying a remote terminal, the data is backed up in a secure storage which you can't destroy.

 

 

 

This, I feel, is a better comparison.

 

We'll leave off on any discussion of whether method A (i.e. a Tenno cybernetically melded with a suit) actually produces superior results, because

A. It's based on completely unproven speculation which mostly always (always!) seems to stem from people trying to find ways to insist that Second Dream isn't how all the Tenno work, there have to be Tenno wearing Warframes as suits, amirite guys, there have to be.

B. Even if something like this happened, there's nothing to actually say that this is how Stalker works.

C. Even if something like this is true, and even if Stalker is one of those Warframe models, Stalker's not actually superior. He's a scrub. I kick his head in whenever he tries to put the frighteners on me.

Believe me I see your point. In reality it doesn't work that way. People use what they get. Some companies and offices (good companies) still run on archaic Windows OS.

If there are human piloted warframes out there. They will be still used regardless if they are superior or inferior to something else.

Maybe a good chunk of orokin peeps disliked the idea of the somatic link so they still pursued the body suit way.

[SupaHotFiyah]

Just asking does vauban prime accessories have plat included? Just a random question

[Deshiel]

29 minutes ago, Yoisho said:

Just asking does vauban prime accessories have plat included? Just a random question

nope it gives credit and affinity booster for 90 days instead

[(PSN)Redemption_015]

13 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

nope it gives credit and affinity booster for 90 days instead

On the PS4 we get extra plat.

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

I just saw the requirements for building Vauban Prime and at this point Umbras probably gonna be like 20 nitain for each piece. DE have gotten completely out of control with their nitain requirements and they need to cut it tf out.

 

[(PSN)Redemption_015]

24 minutes ago, (XB1)ToothlessApollo said:

I just saw the requirements for building Vauban Prime and at this point Umbras probably gonna be like 20 nitain for each piece. DE have gotten completely out of control with their nitain requirements and they need to cut it tf out.

 

20 Nitain a piece!? Are you serious?