Nullifiers: Inconsistent Behavior and Unmaking Reality

[RealPandemonium]

On 8/7/2016 at 10:03 AM, Dante123pl said:

at this point i think ur threads should be considered spam you create same threads with crying about nullifiers few times a week.

Nullifiers wont get changed, game needs them.

Other factions also need them cause corpus is the only faction that can fight back.

deal with it.

It's kind of scary that you complain in other threads that this and that isn't OP enough, but then come into this thread to say that Nullifier are needed to make us not OP.  What if we just weren't OP in the first place?

Nullifiers can still have a place in Damage 3.0, so long as weapon types are equally good against them, spawn rate is reduced, and the core problems that brought about their creation (exploitable corrupted mods, lopsided weapon balance) are addressed.  

[(XBOX)C0gnitive 0n3]

14 hours ago, Zoracraft said:

B: "Game needs them", who says? You? You don't have to look far into the forums to see that people pretty much boycott corpus missions because of nullies. I don't know about you, but I don't think the game "needs" an enemy that causes so much division that people actually boycott any content that contains that enemy.

You have, perfectly, summed up my Warframe experience for the last 2 months.

Sortie reward system is bad enough - so when sorties are Corpus, I ignore it, altogether.

Gold Cores? Thank God for Heiracon. I'd rather deal with level 400 Infested, than level 40 Nullifiers.

I can say, if memory serves correct, that the last Corpus mission(s) I ran dealt with the introduction of the Razorback. I did low level exterminate missions to farm Neural Sensors during the resource weekend - other than that, Corpus missions are a big facepalm with the word "NOPE" written over it.

[BlackCoMerc]

43 minutes ago, (XB1)C0gnitive 0n3 said:

You have, perfectly, summed up my Warframe experience for the last 2 months.

Sortie reward system is bad enough - so when sorties are Corpus, I ignore it, altogether.

Gold Cores? Thank God for Heiracon. I'd rather deal with level 400 Infested, than level 40 Nullifiers.

I can say, if memory serves correct, that the last Corpus mission(s) I ran dealt with the introduction of the Razorback. I did low level exterminate missions to farm Neural Sensors during the resource weekend - other than that, Corpus missions are a big facepalm with the word "NOPE" written over it.

Last night I had 2 choices (for once) for Axi Fissures:

Corpus 43-45 or so

Void 40-50.

Though I knew Void foes (for some inexplicable reason) feature Nullifiers, I would rather deal with level 50 armor sponges than level 50-43 Nullifiers blanketing a map any day.

It'd also very telling the frequency with which Fissures end up on Corpus maps as opposed to Grineer. Almost as if DE knows we wouldn't choose Corpus otherwise...wonder why that is.

[SoulOfTheHunter]

Up until you pointed it out I didn't care the hows or whys, and had just assumed that the Corpus/Grineer had developed technology to mimic warframe abilities but were not actual abilities, simply technological clones.

[SonicSonedit]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

Ha! Funny you mention it...we both have a copy of SR4, and are seriously thinking its time we returned to that franchise for a while. Warframe is wearing thin for us just now...we are growing tired of fighting the same old enemies, on the same old maps, just to get more gold colored copies of stuff we already have...which, sadly, is the late game.

Unless you actually LIKE sorties and raids, and we...really, really dont.

Thanks for reminding me of this. Got a break from work coming up soon and I think we might also make it a break from Warframe.

Yeah, same story for us here. Lately WF starts to feel like hard work instead of fun game, more and more annoying arifical difficulty and grind and less fun. New Star Chart is great, but new fissure system was a big dissapointment, and so we are taking a break from WF currently.

Give L4D2 a chance, too :)

We can also introduce you to L4D2, if you want. Altrhough we are mostly playing "Versus" mode (PVP), but we can gladly play some Campagin mode (CO-OP) and also show you some superb community campaigns.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/howdoimineforfish/

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, SonicSonedit said:

Yeah, same story for us here. Lately WF starts to feel like hard work instead of fun game, more and more annoying arifical difficulty and grind and less fun. New Star Chart is great, but new fissure system was a big dissapointment, and so we are taking a break from WF currently.

Give L4D2 a chance, too :)

We can also introduce you to L4D2, if you want. Altrhough we are mostly playing "Versus" mode (PVP), but we can gladly play some Campagin mode (CO-OP) and also show you some superb community campaigns.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/howdoimineforfish/

Thanks. Well think about it...not much for zombies, but I think we have the game from the years old give away. Have to check.

[Marbelik]

12 hours ago, Chipputer said:

So we're going to now go after nullifiers by arguing that our space magic is affected in a strange and unrealistic way by their space technology? Amazing.

Not only that, but we're defining how the space magic works, exactly, and thus we are deciding that fictional space technology can't work in a certain way because we have decided how our space magic works.

 

Nullifiers are archaic, yes, but calling them inconsistent? They affect your powers 100% consistently. They don't affect the enemy powers. They are a hard counter to your power spam. Nothing about that is inconsistent. A player buying Frost because a frost eximus unit isn't affected by their allied nullifier is probably one of the dumbest leaps in logic I've ever laid eyes on.

So how come that blocking bullets is consistent at all if the bubble is only supposed to block VOID POWERS? Yeah... right...

[Marbelik]

5 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

I was talking this over with clanmates recently and our views came down to several distinct themes, with one underlying agreement. Nullifiers are too much the way they are.

Theme 1: Remove them and spawn *occasional* comba's/scrambas instead.

Theme 2: Make the bubble ONLY affect powers. Bullets can pass through for free.

Theme 3: Make the bubble have HP and drop instantly, rather than the time delay psuedo-damage-scaled mess we have currently.

Good thoughts about how to make nullifiers acceptable. Theme 1 is the best since DE doesnt seem to want to fix how damage is done to the bubble. Theme 2 is a really good addition that the game needs if nullifiers must stay.Theme 3... i just dont like this one, its good but i like more the first 2 options.

[notlamprey]

Bless all your wonderful people who are still putting in the time and effort to give useful feedback about Nullifiers.

I feel like I've trodden that ground so many times that I'd just be repeating myself at this point, and I also don't want to impugn the talent or work ethic or (insert attribute here) of anybody at DE, so... I've cut back on my participation in discussions of things like Nullifiers.

I just wanted to express my support for everybody who is still forwarding ideas about how to improve the game.

[Prany]

18 hours ago, Marbelik said:

So how come that blocking bullets is consistent at all if the bubble is only supposed to block VOID POWERS? Yeah... right...

Where is it said that bubbles are only supposed to block powers? Because as I see it, it's supposed to block both.

[Kiyomaru-EN-]

Honestly, I never had an problem with Nullifiers before SotR. They appeared rather infrequently for me are were usually easily dispatched, either by popping their bubbles from afar and then putting them out of their misery, or by just tackling them heads on, with a well timed sprint into the bubble to take them out.

Yes they are annoying if they keep interefering with your gameplay especially after they were buffed, but one thing that can really cause you to loath them, is when you tackle a high level Corpus Void Fissure and suddenly the map is FLOODED with Nullifiers, with their bubbles overlapping and all. That happened the last time I played a Neo Fissure, which was a Rescue mission... It's not pleasant trying to get a Rescue Target through hordes of Nullifiers that basically block everything you try to kill.

[rngd444]

47 minutes ago, Prany said:

Where is it said that bubbles are only supposed to block powers? Because as I see it, it's supposed to block both.

For me, it's only logical because if they really were supposed to block bullets, those bullets still wouldn't do anything while being inside of them. It's a field that supposedly prevents power usage wherever said field is and not so much a shield for that matter. The field doesn't stop existing when you enter it as clearly seen due to ability cast prevention, so, why should shooting have any effect in there by current standards?

Edited August 9, 2016 by rngd444

[Prany]

2 hours ago, rngd444 said:

For me, it's only logical because if they really were supposed to block bullets, those bullets still wouldn't do anything while being inside of them. It's a field that supposedly prevents power usage wherever said field is and not so much a shield for that matter. The field doesn't stop existing when you enter it as clearly seen due to ability cast prevention, so, why should shooting have any effect in there by current standards?

You're looking for lore explanations for game mechanics. To this I give you advice - if you have issue with one or another game mechanic, discuss it from perspective of game mechanics not lore or realism.

[rngd444]

2 minutes ago, Prany said:

You're looking for lore explanations for game mechanics. To this I give you advice - if you have issue with one or another game mechanic, discuss it from perspective of game mechanics not lore or realism.

Wow. I wasn't talking lore and it doesn't equal realism in any way, obviously. It is widely regarded as nonsensical from a mechanics perspective as well which is one of the main reasons for all those threads and complaints. There are other nullifying fields and they all can be damaged from the outside; those inconsistencies and the overall double standards (damaging Nullifiers with AoE from the outside was fixed even if that's not their main purpose, yet Bombard rockets are still damaging anyone in a Frost's Snow Globe) are just the result of a sloppy band-aid implementation with no second thought.

Another thing which doesn't make sense is the way bubbles stack on top of each other or thereof the lack of them fusing together to forgo one the main reasons of all the Nullifier hate: you can't even hit them when in there anymore if there literally three or more 'walls' between each of them. Will you now go on and say it is a so-called mechanic as well and therefore, logic shouldn't be applied?

Game play should be intuitive which can only be achieved by a logical approach. Nullifiers are but the opposite.

[Prany]

17 minutes ago, rngd444 said:

Wow. I wasn't talking lore and it doesn't equal realism in any way, obviously. It is widely regarded as nonsensical from a mechanics perspective as well which is one of the main reasons for all those threads and complaints. There are other nullifying fields and they all can be damaged from the outside; those inconsistencies and the overall double standards (damaging Nullifiers with AoE from the outside was fixed even if that's not their main purpose, yet Bombard rockets are still damaging anyone in a Frost's Snow Globe) are just the result of a sloppy band-aid implementation with no second thought.

Another thing which doesn't make sense is the way bubbles stack on top of each other or thereof the lack of them fusing together to forgo one the main reasons of all the Nullifier hate: you can't even hit them when in there anymore if there literally three or more 'walls' between each of them. Will you now go on and say it is a so-called mechanic as well and therefore, logic shouldn't be applied?

Game play should be intuitive which can only be achieved by a logical approach. Nullifiers are but the opposite.

My apologies. I looked too much at OP and mixed you in the same bag.

Regarding stacking bubble issue: be patient and shoot more. That's it. If you're solo it may be slight issue, but in team setting even three bubbles melt like snow under exaust of space shuttle. And if you can kill 'em in melee (and rely on self buffs), three bubbles don't even matter. And in what manner is lack of bubble fusing illogical? What logic dictates that two overlapping bubbles should become one? And aside from that, how exactly would this fusing be implemented? What do you even mean with it? How would it work? What are possible issues that should be taken care of. Sounds like awful lot of work for issue that can be resolved in far simpler way - slightly reduce nullifier spawn rate.

As for explosions damaging players through obstacles - I can agree it's an issue. We should also be able to damage nullifiers with our own explosives (thou preferably with reduced damage in order to not trivialize these enemies), and let bows, snipers and shotguns wear down bubbles with speed comparable to that of automatic weapons.

Only real inconsistency regarding bubbles I see is bubble of one of bursas being penetretable by weapon fire. That is something that may cause new players to scratch their heads and should be rectified.

[rngd444]

2 hours ago, Prany said:

My apologies. I looked too much at OP and mixed you in the same bag.

Regarding stacking bubble issue: be patient and shoot more. That's it. If you're solo it may be slight issue, but in team setting even three bubbles melt like snow under exaust of space shuttle. And if you can kill 'em in melee (and rely on self buffs), three bubbles don't even matter. And in what manner is lack of bubble fusing illogical? What logic dictates that two overlapping bubbles should become one? And aside from that, how exactly would this fusing be implemented? What do you even mean with it? How would it work? What are possible issues that should be taken care of. Sounds like awful lot of work for issue that can be resolved in far simpler way - slightly reduce nullifier spawn rate.

As for explosions damaging players through obstacles - I can agree it's an issue. We should also be able to damage nullifiers with our own explosives (thou preferably with reduced damage in order to not trivialize these enemies), and let bows, snipers and shotguns wear down bubbles with speed comparable to that of automatic weapons.

Only real inconsistency regarding bubbles I see is bubble of one of bursas being penetretable by weapon fire. That is something that may cause new players to scratch their heads and should be rectified.

Not looking for advice here but thanks. You would never be able to have multiple distinct fields of the same technology not to interact with each other and just clipping into each other in the way it currently is. That just makes no sense whatsoever from a physics or logic point of view. So yeah, logic itself would dictate it; not sure what else to say about that. What I mean by letting the bubbles fuse? Nothing too dramatic really, just them combining to one potentially bigger field, probably more of an oval form, to prevent said clipping and therefore making their whole appearance more intuitive. Likely too much effort for a band-aid unit, so there's that. The problem with simply lowering the spawn rate is, as we've seen it time and time again, it doesn't seem to be a reliable solution. Not sure what's the deal there; it could be just them not being consistent while lowering or the whole spawning process being too random in the first place. So, it would need some kind of new query to detect the current Nullifier count in the field and prevent further spawns which would be them going way out of their way already. But yes, any solution is a step in the right direction.

The problem with AoE damaging Nullifiers from the outside - and I really liked linking the Atomos in there, like really - is that any reduction would still trivialise them due to all the power creep. So, it's either doing nothing at all, if reduced too much, or simply killing them instantly again. As for giving all weapon types equal chances on bubble reduction instead of the current arbitrary system, count me right in.

Disruptor Drones' nullifying fields are just like the Bursa ones. Anyway, I hope you're not saying theirs and the ones of Isolator Bursas should be impenetrable for bullets as well because that would be the wrongest conclusion of all. As for other inconsistencies, the recent changes to make them 'more consistent' did quite the opposite: one can't really argue a Snow Globe is still a Warframe power as in qualified for disabling when Frost himself is able to go into a bubble without the Globe disappearing, yet it gets destroyed when said field touches it which is just another sloppy band-aid applied without any logic. Or Vauban: all his devices are declared to be more like gadgets than actual powers, yet all his utility just vanishes the moment a bubble decides to come his way.

[Marbelik]

On 8/9/2016 at 7:45 AM, Prany said:

Where is it said that bubbles are only supposed to block powers? Because as I see it, it's supposed to block both.

Iits kind of bs that it does, and if the unit was supposed to be made to prevent Tenno ravaging the corpus using powers then why also add projectile protection? Thats just an excuse to add "dificulty" to the game. If the implementation of such enemy hadn´t had any inconsistency in how it works then they could be fine. Add the factor that the game is an online game with host type connection and the bubble seems to never wear off even while shooting at it...

[Prany]

5 hours ago, Marbelik said:

Iits kind of bs that it does, and if the unit was supposed to be made to prevent Tenno ravaging the corpus using powers then why also add projectile protection? Thats just an excuse to add "dificulty" to the game. If the implementation of such enemy hadn´t had any inconsistency in how it works then they could be fine. Add the factor that the game is an online game with host type connection and the bubble seems to never wear off even while shooting at it...

They are protected from projectiles so they could survive more than one second under our fire and do their job of power nullification. Take it away and nullifiers become just as inconsequential as Manics and Drakh Masters.  And of course nullifiers are in game to increase difficulty just like whack-a-mole simulator and EXP generator originally were supposed to do. Why else would game designer add new enemy to the game?

And again, where are these inconsistencies? I have fought nullifiers since their introduction and have never failed from unclear or unfair mechanics from their part - only because of my own mistakes. Hell, bubbles block projectiles of nullifier's allies if you're inside the bubble. That's absurdly consistant, fair and very fun when you manage to utilize it.

Regarding eximus powers, there is no indication that those are generated with void technology. According to wiki, they are not (thou there is no citation).

[rngd444]

3 hours ago, Prany said:

They are protected from projectiles so they could survive more than one second under our fire and do their job of power nullification. Take it away and nullifiers become just as inconsequential as Manics and Drakh Masters.  And of course nullifiers are in game to increase difficulty just like whack-a-mole simulator and EXP generator originally were supposed to do. Why else would game designer add new enemy to the game?

And again, where are these inconsistencies? I have fought nullifiers since their introduction and have never failed from unclear or unfair mechanics from their part - only because of my own mistakes. Hell, bubbles block projectiles of nullifier's allies if you're inside the bubble. That's absurdly consistant, fair and very fun when you manage to utilize it.

Regarding eximus powers, there is no indication that those are generated with void technology. According to wiki, they are not (thou there is no citation).

So, they got implemented because of the lack of balancing regarding CC. Then, they have to be artificially protected because they'd be useless otherwise due to the lack of balancing regarding our general damage output. They are a band-aid unit and got forced onto the players to fight the symptoms instead of the source. You having no problems against a unit doesn't proove they're not inconsistent and just asking that question over and over again while ignoring the answers that were already given won't really get you anywhere. What you mention is the absolute bare minimum of consistency anyone would expect anyway. As for Eximi not using Void technology, it's highly unlikely just by the example of the Snow Globe being almost identical with the exception of being mobile and even if it were to be something else, stacking bubbles still wouldn't suddenly become the pinnacle of good game design since I'm not supposed to look for lore or logic reasons here anyway :P

[Mardana]

I am pretty sure that DE forgot their Speedy Nuffer variants, A.K.A. Roller Skating Corpus units (Gomba, Sombra, whatever... Gooba?). They're pretty well-designed and fair, at least they don't disrupt all your abilities and nullifiy them all at once like these scary Nuffers.

[Inarticulate]

On 8/7/2016 at 8:01 AM, NightElve said:

Exactly stationary objects like Frost bubble relies mostly on condensation of the atmosphere, how a nullifier destroys that, i don't know..

Snow Globe is not just frozen water vapor. Presumably, Frost needs to maintain the Snow Globe with Void energy in order to keep the storm on the interior of the Snow Globe blowing and to keep the globe itself from melting.

 

On 8/7/2016 at 7:40 AM, BlackCoMerc said:

First, Nullifiers aren't consistent in their behavior. They are supposed to nullify void powers. But they don't do so consistently. They only nullify our powers.

From a physical standpoint, there should also be no reason why Nullifier bubbles only stop our bullets and let friendly bullets through; there should be no reason why Arctic Eximus bubbles and Snow Globes let bullets out, but not in; there should be no reason by my Amprex only targets enemy units even with friendlies in the mix; there should be no reason my Penta can hurt me and not friendlies, the list goes on and on. Many of these are necessary inconsistencies with reality for the sake of gameplay to minimize frustration caused by other players and to prevent enemy units from simply incapacitating each other.

[rngd444]

10 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

From a physical standpoint, there should also be no reason why Nullifier bubbles only stop our bullets and let friendly bullets through; there should be no reason why Arctic Eximus bubbles and Snow Globes let bullets out, but not in; there should be no reason by my Amprex only targets enemy units even with friendlies in the mix; there should be no reason my Penta can hurt me and not friendlies, the list goes on and on. Many of these are necessary inconsistencies with reality for the sake of gameplay to minimize frustration caused by other players and to prevent enemy units from simply incapacitating each other.

Valid points. I'd now say that the game play revolving Nullifiers in their current form isn't a good one to begin with, especially so if the spawns decide to stack them once again, and is therefore the cause of more frustration than the demanded consistency would bring. Before their buffs or changes for allegedly more consistency, they were annoying and needed work but didn't shut down some Frames completely. I won't even try and attempt to play Vauban in a Corpus mission, only for them to just run over everything I layed out with zero effort. So, simply put, they increased the number of equipment which is either rendered useless or frustrating to play with against a specific faction (before, it was 'just' stuff like snipers, shotguns, other slow weapons and Frames that heavily rely on buffs). There are surely more engaging ways to bring difficulty into a game without the need for frustration.

Reverting the recent changes and making all weapons viable for shrinking the bubbles would be a good start. Perhaps it would even suffice already.

[Prany]

5 hours ago, rngd444 said:

So, they got implemented because of the lack of balancing regarding CC. Then, they have to be artificially protected because they'd be useless otherwise due to the lack of balancing regarding our general damage output. They are a band-aid unit and got forced onto the players to fight the symptoms instead of the source.

Yes. And as long as people cling to their power tools, nullifiers are here to stay. Not that I would want their departure even if our power level was lovered to reasonable level. Yes, nullifiers are not without some minor shortcomings, but besides that their gameplay design is quite ingenious with obvious counters and they are absolutely fair in both offence and defence. Much better than most other enemies (at least in case of corpus and grineer) in this game who are walking sticks with guns on them. Or worse, blatantly unfair enemies like comba/scrambus with their invisible and borderline unavoidable dispell auras or juggernouts with their plethora of deadly attacks combined with incredibally stiff telegraph animations.

5 hours ago, rngd444 said:

You having no problems against a unit doesn't proove they're not inconsistent and just asking that question over and over again while ignoring the answers that were already given won't really get you anywhere. What you mention is the absolute bare minimum of consistency anyone would expect anyway.

What answers? This thread shows no compelling arguments for why nullifiers are inconsistant or why it would be important even if they were inconsistant. I keep repeating this question because I have not recieved good answer. For example...

 

5 hours ago, rngd444 said:

As for Eximi not using Void technology, it's highly unlikely just by the example of the Snow Globe being almost identical with the exception of being mobile and even if it were to be something else, stacking bubbles still wouldn't suddenly become the pinnacle of good game design since I'm not supposed to look for lore or logic reasons here anyway :P

I supported my argument with something resembling proof. You responded with speculation. You could as well have gone and responded "Nuh-uh". And I could go ahead and respond "Ya-huh". It would go then forever and everyone would agree it's very stupid. As an example let's pretend I don't have argument backed by sorta-proof and say: eximus snowglobe is made up of hexagons while Frost's isn't. From this we can conclude that Frost's globe is made by natural forces while exinus is artificial.

[NightElve]

15 minutes ago, Prany said:

Yes. And as long as people cling to their power tools, nullifiers are here to stay. Not that I would want their departure even if our power level was lovered to reasonable level. Yes, nullifiers are not without some minor shortcomings, but besides that their gameplay design is quite ingenious with obvious counters and they are absolutely fair in both offence and defence. Much better than most other enemies (at least in case of corpus and grineer) in this game who are walking sticks with guns on them. Or worse, blatantly unfair enemies like comba/scrambus with their invisible and borderline unavoidable dispell auras or juggernouts with their plethora of deadly attacks combined with incredibally stiff telegraph animations.

What answers? This thread shows no compelling arguments for why nullifiers are inconsistant or why it would be important even if they were inconsistant. I keep repeating this question because I have not recieved good answer. For example...

 

I supported my argument with something resembling proof. You responded with speculation. You could as well have gone and responded "Nuh-uh". And I could go ahead and respond "Ya-huh". It would go then forever and everyone would agree it's very stupid. As an example let's pretend I don't have argument backed by sorta-proof and say: eximus snowglobe is made up of hexagons while Frost's isn't. From this we can conclude that Frost's globe is made by natural forces while exinus is artificial.

Lol! Troll. Period!

[Prany]

Just now, NightElve said:

Lol! Troll. Period!

Lol! Typical response from someone without real counter argument. Period!