Nullifiers: Inconsistent Behavior and Unmaking Reality

[IceColdHawk]

3 hours ago, Prany said:

Nullifiers may not be perfect, but they sure as hell are better than that joke of an enemy design.

Shoot helmet. Profit. Nully: Shoot backp...oh wait. Scrambus also don't instantly remove a stacked up globe like it's nothing. Listen to their unique sound and get rdy to blast their head off. The only time i got goofed by a scrambus was when i was spamming 1 as atlas and it didn't work, but that was my fault. And unlike nullies, they have their own type of abilities that they disable.

Nullifier is a failed concept on stopping "ability spam". You use boltor prime, spray your bolts till bubble plops and then continue spamming. Oh, you wanted to bring something not so fast shooting? Well, you are a scrub and deserve to have no fun for not limiting yourself.

2 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

So...we should equip ourselves with a weapon to counter / deal with an ability / feature of a very specific enemy? In doing so, we've just gimped ourselves when dealing with the rest of the Corpus / Corrupted faction and whatever allies are tagging along with that enemy.

You do also realize your argument kind of reinforces the whole point that Nullifiers are bad because they're basically requiring gear checks to deal specifically with them, right?

Nullifiers and their bubbles are little more than a convoluted and misguided attempt to deal with ability spam...and frankly there are better ways of addressing that issue that don't involve arbitrarily turning our powers off and thus turning the WF experience into little more than a Third Person Shooter with fancy outfits.

Hehe, i get you man. But i've already said it before, glaives don't work anymore, which makes it an even worse gear check. ^^

[BlackCoMerc]

On 8/12/2016 at 2:42 PM, RealPandemonium said:

Absolute hyperbole, and also Synthesis targets are vulnerable to all powers, only developing immunity to each power after it has affected them once.

Unfettered use of powers allows one player to effectively solo missions that have 4 Tenno in them.  I think that 4 team members should be able to deal with the Nullifiers one way or another.

I state facts. You call me a liar.

Please feel free to engage me once again when you have something worthwhile to contribute to the conversation other than insults and false statements. 

Just today I was on a Fissure mission, on a Corpus map, with zero powers available for half the mission. The ship tileset doesnt offer a lot of room to maneuver, and it gets even more limited when Fissure continually spawn Nullifiers RIGHT ON TOP OF PLAYERS TIME AND AGAIN. 

Just to test, went to a Grineer Survival Fissure mission and the same thing happened there. Constantly. It was an awful, dreadful experience. One of the worst I've experienced in gaming. But then, thats getting to be the trend in Warframe.

[RealPandemonium]

7 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I state facts. You call me a liar.

I said you were exaggerating and corrected one misstatement in your post.

[Prany]

11 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Shoot helmet. Profit. Nully: Shoot backp...oh wait.

Exactly, to deal with modulars you only have to do with exatly the same thing you would do with almost every other enemy in the game. Nullifiers may require change of pace depending on what's under bubble and your loadout. Or offer opportunaties if you need cover from things outside of bubble.

And why in hell nullifiers would need a weak spot. Even at level 100 they are fairly squishy.

 

11 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Scrambus also don't instantly remove a stacked up globe like it's nothing.

But they remove ability self-effects of Trinity, Mirage, Chroma, Limbo, Loki and so on like it's nothing. And unlike nullifiers, it's much harder to detect and counter them before it's too late.

 

11 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Listen to their unique sound and get rdy to blast their head off

Sound is very poor indicator. When I see nullifier, I can asses situation and act accordingly - when I hear modular I can only hope they won't come around a corner in inconvenient time, kill it and recast my buffs which I, by the way, had no chance of preserving. Ping also become absolutely useless when game cranks up their spawn rate and there are pings all the time.

 

11 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

The only time i got goofed by a scrambus was when i was spamming 1 as atlas and it didn't work, but that was my fault.

I've been goofed by modulars many times and not once I could have done anything to prevent it. I have been goofed by nullifiers as well and every time it has been my own fault and I could learn from these mistakes. So it's your experience versus mine and mine say that modulars are bullS#&$.

 

11 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

And unlike nullies, they have their own type of abilities that they disable.

Which is great idea in theory, but in practice many abilities are very weak, many other are situational, others are meant to merely supplement other, others are synergetic or even co-dependant. Most of the time wrong scrambus against wrong warframe leaves warframe practically with no powers. Not to mentioned it goes out of the window when modulars start spawning more than nullifiers. If you want to use any ability, you're at the mercy of spawn system to not throw combinations of modulars who leave you with no powers at all.

 

11 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Nullifier is a failed concept on stopping "ability spam". You use boltor prime, spray your bolts till bubble plops and then continue spamming. Oh, you wanted to bring something not so fast shooting? Well, you are a scrub and deserve to have no fun for not limiting yourself.

Look at it from my perspective: Nullifiers are succesfull concept of limiting but not cripling ability usage and encouraging choice of effective loadouts. They promote switching between weapons, give spotlight to rapid firing weapons which othervise wouldn't have place in high level content, make you asses situation and act quicly, pick priority targets, dodge incoming fire or take cover while bursting bubble. Or you could forgoe ranged combat and use slide attacks for instant clear or sour through the sky only to ground slam on them with massive hammer, kill off bombards, but keep nullifier itslef alive (and knocked down of course) and switch to ranged weapon to kill enemies out of bubble because it blocks enemy projectiles going inside it.

Remind me, can I pick up comba's helmet to use it to my advantage? Oh, of course I can't. Only thing I can do with modulars is shoot helmet. Profit.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Prany

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, Prany said:

Exactly, to deal with modulars you only have to do with exatly the same thing you would do with almost every other enemy in the game. Nullifiers may require change of pace depending on what's under bubble and your loadout. Or offer opportunaties if you need cover from things outside of bubble.

And why in hell nullifiers would need a weak spot. Even at level 100 they are fairly squishy.

 

But they remove ability self-effects of Trinity, Mirage, Chroma, Limbo, Loki and so on like it's nothing. And unlike nullifiers, it's much harder to detect and counter them before it's too late.

 

Sound is very poor indicator. When I see nullifier, I can asses situation and act accordingly - when I hear modular I can only hope they won't come around a corner in inconvenient time, kill it and recast my buffs which I, by the way, had no chance of preserving. Ping also become absolutely useless when game cranks up their spawn rate and there are pings all the time.

 

I've been goofed by modulars many times and not once I could have done anything to prevent it. I have been goofed by nullifiers as well and every time it has been my own fault and I could learn from these mistakes. So it's your experience versus mine and mine say that modulars are bullS#&$.

 

Which is great idea in theory, but in practice many abilities are very weak, many other are situational, others are meant to merely supplement other, others are synergetic or even co-dependant. Most of the time wrong scrambus against wrong warframe leaves warframe practically with no powers. Not to mentioned it goes out of the window when modulars start spawning more than nullifiers. If you want to use any ability, you're at the mercy of spawn system to not throw combinations of modulars who leave you with no powers at all.

 

Look at it from my perspective: Nullifiers are succesfull concept of limiting but not cripling ability usage and encouraging choice of effective loadouts. They promote switching between weapons, give spotlight to rapid firing weapons which othervise wouldn't have place in high level content, make you asses situation and act quicly, pick priority targets, dodge incoming fire or take cover while bursting bubble. Or you could forgoe ranged combat and use slide attacks for instant clear or sour through the sky only to ground slam on them with massive hammer, kill off bombards, but keep nullifier itslef alive (and knocked down of course) and switch to ranged weapon to kill enemies out of bubble because it blocks enemy projectiles going inside it.

Remind me, can I pick up comba's helmet to use it to my advantage? Oh, of course I can't. Only thing I can do with modulars is shoot helmet. Profit.

Whether or not Nullifiers are a successful CONCEPT is irrelevant. Archwing is a successful CONCEPT. Sorties are a successful CONCEPT. Focus is a successful CONCEPT. And do you know what these have in common with Nullifiers?

All have suffered utter failure at the IMPLEMENTATION stage. Which makes them pretty much a failure. 

See, having a successful concept - say, Nullifiers - is easy. You just...think it up. Its the actual implementation that matters.

And having Nullifiers cover entire map tiles, spawn on top of players - like, in the same spot we are standing in, bubble fully operational - and have their bullet proof bubble also cover hordes of enemies with knockdown spam that keep you from either shooting OR charging...there's NOTHING successful about that. 

Challenge in games is like a puzzle. Dark Souls understands this. Each enemy is a puzzle to crack. Bait their move sets. Learn their openings. Cast or swing your sword or fire an arrow. So long as you can spot the openings, any of a multitude of tools from your entire, intact arsenal will suffice. Some will be more ideal than others, but none of them will be useless. 

Nullifiers, on the other hand, utterly negate entire weapon sets, and a whole swathe of Warframes to boot. When fighting in missions where Nullifiers are likely - and with this new and largely terribly implemented Fissure system (another no doubt successful CONCEPT), thats a WHOLE LOT of missions - DO NOT take:

ANY Bow

ANY Sniper rifle

Mesa

Nezha

Loki

Nova

Nyx

Wukong

Trinity

Everything on that least is either utterly useless against tiles littered with Nullifiers, or so far in the direction of subpar as to be nearly so. EVERYTHING on that list. And probably more. 

This isn't challenge. There's literally nothing challenging about charging into the bubble and hacking the Nullifier. Nor is there anything challenging about holding down the fire button until the bubble disappears. Which two options are the ONLY method for dealing with these things. Literally, thats it; charge the bubble and shoot/hack the dude - regardless of tactical risks coming from that option - or stand back and shoot at the bubble, ignoring all other threats (again, regardless of how high a priority those other threats might necessarily rate). Which one of those is challenging? Oh, that's right; neither.

What these things are...is limiting. Unnecessarily limiting. Pointlessly limiting. Frustratingly limiting. Which would nonetheless serve some purpose...if they added anything worthwhile to game play. But they dont.

Because running up to enemies and shooting them in the face/hacking them to death or standing back and shooting them from a distance is what we ALREADY DO. Hence, adding Nullifiers changes literally NOTHING about our tactics. All it does it limit our choices while adding nothing meaningful to the game whatsoever.

Oh, one other thing it does: When you spend five full minutes without Warframe powers - as I did just last night, on the last Fissure Survival I will EVER run - you basically arent even playing Warframe any longer. When Nullifiers are literally spawning in the spot where you are standing, for minutes on end, you're just playing a generic sci fi shooter. And its then that you realize: In the cramped confines of a Grineer Galleon tileset, without the ability to really use the movement system for all its worth, and without your unique powers for minutes on end...really, Warframe simply isnt a very fun, or a very good, game. 

Which begs the question: Why are the developers INTENTIONALLY TRYING to rob the game of everything that makes it either fun or unique?

[IceColdHawk]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Oh, one other thing it does: When you spend five full minutes without Warframe powers - as I did just last night, on the last Fissure Survival I will EVER run - you basically arent even playing Warframe any longer. When Nullifiers are literally spawning in the spot where you are standing, for minutes on end, you're just playing a generic sci fi shooter. And its then that you realize: In the cramped confines of a Grineer Galleon tileset, without the ability to really use the movement system for all its worth, and without your unique powers for minutes on end...really, Warframe simply isnt a very fun, or a very good, game. 

Ikr?

On 20.7.2016 at 11:38 AM, IceColdHawk said:

*goes to play creative vauban for fissure mission*

Player 1: "Oh yeah, guys? Lemme plant some teslas here first. And maybe a vortex over there! It's gonna be a TRAP!"

P1: "Mhhhhhm, FUUUUUUUN......."

P2: "Bruh, stop crying you cheesy noob and git gud."

P3: "Told ya it's not gonna work. Let me do this!"

*slides with orthos prime/lesion everything away*

P3: "Ez pz lemon sqez."

P2: "I still love nullifiers! They add challenge and fun and make us think and add creative gaming tactics!11"

*P4 & P1 putting P2 on ignore*

The end.

 

 

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

This isn't challenge. There's literally nothing challenging about charging into the bubble and hacking the Nullifier. Nor is there anything challenging about holding down the fire button until the bubble disappears. Which two options are the ONLY method for dealing with these things. Literally, thats it; charge the bubble and shoot/hack the dude - regardless of tactical risks coming from that option - or stand back and shoot at the bubble, ignoring all other threats (again, regardless of how high a priority those other threats might necessarily rate). Which one of those is challenging? Oh, that's right; neither.

 

But apparently, nullifier is a "successful" concept. It is so successful that the obvious majority HATES them. But hey ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Which begs the question: Why are the developers INTENTIONALLY TRYING to rob the game of everything that makes it either fun or unique?

No one knows. Maybe Soon™ we will find the answer. (though "everything" sounds a little bit exaggerated)

[Prany]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Whether or not Nullifiers are a successful CONCEPT is irrelevant. Archwing is a successful CONCEPT. Sorties are a successful CONCEPT. Focus is a successful CONCEPT. And do you know what these have in common with Nullifiers?

All have suffered utter failure at the IMPLEMENTATION stage. Which makes them pretty much a failure. 

See, having a successful concept - say, Nullifiers - is easy. You just...think it up. Its the actual implementation that matters.

And having Nullifiers cover entire map tiles, spawn on top of players - like, in the same spot we are standing in, bubble fully operational - and have their bullet proof bubble also cover hordes of enemies with knockdown spam that keep you from either shooting OR charging...there's NOTHING successful about that. 

Challenge in games is like a puzzle. Dark Souls understands this. Each enemy is a puzzle to crack. Bait their move sets. Learn their openings. Cast or swing your sword or fire an arrow. So long as you can spot the openings, any of a multitude of tools from your entire, intact arsenal will suffice. Some will be more ideal than others, but none of them will be useless. 

I want your (lack of) luck, because I see maybe three corrupted nullifiers per rift mission. Even corpus missions rarely throw a curvball at me. You can imagine how dull it gets when matchmaking throws Ember or Ash in my squad. On the same note, I played few higher level rift missions and I think I found your problem with nullies spawning on top of you: don't stand next to fissure. While yes, nullifier spawning is one legitimate criticism and should be fixed, keeping your distance from rifts should minimize times when nullies drop on you.

And I see where our dissagreement comes from: you see limits imposed by nullifiers as punishment while I see finding ways around these limits rewarding.

And funny that you mention puzzles because nullifiers are exactly that: they require right tools for the job, make you identify enemy composition (especially priority targets) protected by bubble and decide tactics based on it, you can bait more agressive AIs to leave protection of the bubble and switch between shrinking it and shooting protected enemies as they become exposed while also requiring tanking or avoiding damage coming from nullifier and his possy.

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Nullifiers, on the other hand, utterly negate entire weapon sets, and a whole swathe of Warframes to boot. When fighting in missions where Nullifiers are likely - and with this new and largely terribly implemented Fissure system (another no doubt successful CONCEPT), thats a WHOLE LOT of missions - DO NOT take:

That's some horrible list. Lets dissect it:

Bows - if there are multiple enemies inside a bubble, shoot it, let it shrink a bit exposing one or two enemies, shoot exposed enemy so arrow would hit bubble after going through him making it to shrink again. Positioning is key. Rinse and repeat. If there are no enemies in bubble just run in and shoot. You'll be protected from outside damage while doing so. If you find it tedious, you can always fall back on secondary. (Thou faster weapon swap would undeniably be appretiated. Very plz, DE!) By the way, you can mod punchthrough on snipers and shotguns as well.

Snipers - entire game hates their guts with seething passion. Calling nullifiers out for discriminating against snipers is like blaming pint of water for drowning a man who fell in an ocean. If you still want to use snipers (I can't imagine why, but it's your call) you can do the same as I adviced with bows.

Mesa - don't make me laugh. Mesa can tank damage from everything inside a bubble and hard cc everything outside it letting her to shrink it in relative leisure.

Nezha - not as good as Mesa, but far from bad. Very fast with knocdown immunity from warding halo - even half of dozen bombards shouldn't be aproblem if you can move. Due to reliance on self buffs, you probably shouldn't engage in melee unless you can recast buff immediately.

Loki - did you just say that most broken warframe in entire game can't deal with nullifiers? Okay, I shouldn't explain it, but since you seem like very special guy, I'll do it anyway. Find 2 on your keyboard! When your Loki is any kind of danger, press it! Now you can do whatever and still solve any obstacle. But just in case you are reeeeeealy special, press 4. There, you took away weapon of everyone outside a bubble and they can't get even it back by running inside the bubble. Loki works against nullifiers pretty much like Mesa only like ten times better.

Nova - cast MPrime, burst bubble down, wave hits bubble-less nullifier and everything besides him, shoot anyone, profit.

Nyx - I should be shocked, but since you thought Loki has hard time with nullies, this is just continuation of pattern. Just distract nullifiers and their possy with 3 and proceed whatever way you want. Honestly Nyx has easiest time with nullifiers right besides Loki.

Wukong - is insane tank and nullifiers will kill you only if you're stupid enough to waltz right next to them and do nothing. Then again you think Loki has hard time with nullifiers so maybe that's exactly what you're doing.

Trinity - dito.

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Everything on that least is either utterly useless against tiles littered with Nullifiers, or so far in the direction of subpar as to be nearly so. EVERYTHING on that list. And probably more. 

This isn't challenge. There's literally nothing challenging about charging into the bubble and hacking the Nullifier. Nor is there anything challenging about holding down the fire button until the bubble disappears. Which two options are the ONLY method for dealing with these things. Literally, thats it; charge the bubble and shoot/hack the dude - regardless of tactical risks coming from that option - or stand back and shoot at the bubble, ignoring all other threats (again, regardless of how high a priority those other threats might necessarily rate). Which one of those is challenging? Oh, that's right; neither.

What these things are...is limiting. Unnecessarily limiting. Pointlessly limiting. Frustratingly limiting. Which would nonetheless serve some purpose...if they added anything worthwhile to game play. But they dont.

Because running up to enemies and shooting them in the face/hacking them to death or standing back and shooting them from a distance is what we ALREADY DO. Hence, adding Nullifiers changes literally NOTHING about our tactics. All it does it limit our choices while adding nothing meaningful to the game whatsoever.

I have soloed many corpos sorties and void survivals and I can tell from experience that you're wrong. Slide in bubble with sapping bomb in it and you die. And you better move around when firing at the bubble or nullifier with his possy will snipe you. Don't prioritize ancient and you will only scratch nullifiers shiny &#!. I know these things, I take them to good use and feel rewarded for executing them right.

 

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Oh, one other thing it does: When you spend five full minutes without Warframe powers - as I did just last night, on the last Fissure Survival I will EVER run - you basically arent even playing Warframe any longer. When Nullifiers are literally spawning in the spot where you are standing, for minutes on end, you're just playing a generic sci fi shooter. And its then that you realize: In the cramped confines of a Grineer Galleon tileset, without the ability to really use the movement system for all its worth, and without your unique powers for minutes on end...really, Warframe simply isnt a very fun, or a very good, game.

You know what, pics or didn't happen.

[BlackCoMerc]

12 minutes ago, Prany said:

I want your (lack of) luck, because I see maybe three corrupted nullifiers per rift mission. Even corpus missions rarely throw a curvball at me. You can imagine how dull it gets when matchmaking throws Ember or Ash in my squad. On the same note, I played few higher level rift missions and I think I found your problem with nullies spawning on top of you: don't stand next to fissure. While yes, nullifier spawning is one legitimate criticism and should be fixed, keeping your distance from rifts should minimize times when nullies drop on you.

And I see where our dissagreement comes from: you see limits imposed by nullifiers as punishment while I see finding ways around these limits rewarding.

And funny that you mention puzzles because nullifiers are exactly that: they require right tools for the job, make you identify enemy composition (especially priority targets) protected by bubble and decide tactics based on it, you can bait more agressive AIs to leave protection of the bubble and switch between shrinking it and shooting protected enemies as they become exposed while also requiring tanking or avoiding damage coming from nullifier and his possy.

That's some horrible list. Lets dissect it:

Bows - if there are multiple enemies inside a bubble, shoot it, let it shrink a bit exposing one or two enemies, shoot exposed enemy so arrow would hit bubble after going through him making it to shrink again. Positioning is key. Rinse and repeat. If there are no enemies in bubble just run in and shoot. You'll be protected from outside damage while doing so. If you find it tedious, you can always fall back on secondary. (Thou faster weapon swap would undeniably be appretiated. Very plz, DE!) By the way, you can mod punchthrough on snipers and shotguns as well.

Snipers - entire game hates their guts with seething passion. Calling nullifiers out for discriminating against snipers is like blaming pint of water for drowning a man who fell in an ocean. If you still want to use snipers (I can't imagine why, but it's your call) you can do the same as I adviced with bows.

Mesa - don't make me laugh. Mesa can tank damage from everything inside a bubble and hard cc everything outside it letting her to shrink it in relative leisure.

Nezha - not as good as Mesa, but far from bad. Very fast with knocdown immunity from warding halo - even half of dozen bombards shouldn't be aproblem if you can move. Due to reliance on self buffs, you probably shouldn't engage in melee unless you can recast buff immediately.

Loki - did you just say that most broken warframe in entire game can't deal with nullifiers? Okay, I shouldn't explain it, but since you seem like very special guy, I'll do it anyway. Find 2 on your keyboard! When your Loki is any kind of danger, press it! Now you can do whatever and still solve any obstacle. But just in case you are reeeeeealy special, press 4. There, you took away weapon of everyone outside a bubble and they can't get even it back by running inside the bubble. Loki works against nullifiers pretty much like Mesa only like ten times better.

Nova - cast MPrime, burst bubble down, wave hits bubble-less nullifier and everything besides him, shoot anyone, profit.

Nyx - I should be shocked, but since you thought Loki has hard time with nullies, this is just continuation of pattern. Just distract nullifiers and their possy with 3 and proceed whatever way you want. Honestly Nyx has easiest time with nullifiers right besides Loki.

Wukong - is insane tank and nullifiers will kill you only if you're stupid enough to waltz right next to them and do nothing. Then again you think Loki has hard time with nullifiers so maybe that's exactly what you're doing.

Trinity - dito.

I have soloed many corpos sorties and void survivals and I can tell from experience that you're wrong. Slide in bubble with sapping bomb in it and you die. And you better move around when firing at the bubble or nullifier with his possy will snipe you. Don't prioritize ancient and you will only scratch nullifiers shiny &#!. I know these things, I take them to good use and feel rewarded for executing them right.

 

You know what, pics or didn't happen.

Perhaps we do have different luck. While I agree with you on Sniper rifles (seriously, why do they still exist, other than to let DE troll us on Sortie conditions) its been my practical, first hand experience that all of the above listed items are so strictly subpar on Fissure missions, and in the face of Nullifiers, that they may as well be useless.

Now, that statement could offer a clue: I get most of my experience with Nullifiers on Fissure missions. Which makes sense, seeing as how I just avoid anything Corpus related as often and for as long as possible. For this reason, most of my experience with Nullifiers comes from their spawning right on top of me, with no skill based way to avoid suddenly having your entire suite of powers disabled. This has, needless to say, soured me on both Nullifiers, and Warframe in general, in the extreme. 

Not to mention: Not only do Nullifiers fail to add any challenge. Or any tactical options or choices. Seriously, how is charge bubble/spray bubble with gunfire a meaningful decision? Hoe does it add challenge to run toward or shoot at something? Both of those are things we were already doing. Not only do Nullifiers fail to add meaningful gameplay choices. They also actively ENCOURAGE the very power spam they were intended to stop.

Face it: You charge or shoot down a bubble. And having spent several seconds focused on target, find yourself utterly surrounded by the inevitable barrage of cheap, spongy, knockdown spamming heavies that pass (artificially, and badly) for challenge in this game. Your first immediate priority: Crowd Control. Which comes most easily from spamming the very powers Nullifiers were intended to discourage. 

Nullifiers are an utter, abject failure of game design. They were intended for force tactical choice. Charge or Shoot. Wow. Impressive tactical decision making situation there. Seems...a lot like...THE ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME. They were intended to offer challenge. How challenging is to hit a target as big as that bubble? OR charge through it and hack once at the Sniper inside? Oh, that's right; we've all already agreed that its NOT CHALLENGING AT ALL. And they were intended to reduce power spam, which, because of their personal Time to Kill, their death immediately ENCOURAGES. Face it: About the only things Nullifiers do for the game, is rob it both of fun, and its uniqueness among shooters.

That's about the definition of Failed Implementation.

[Prany]

Point of nullifiers was to stop players from sitting on boxes and pressing one button for entire mission. Now we need to at least point in their direction amd click. And look at that, nullifiers succeded.

 

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Which begs the question: Why are the developers INTENTIONALLY TRYING to rob the game of everything that makes it either fun or unique?

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

No one knows. Maybe Soon™ we will find the answer. (though "everything" sounds a little bit exaggerated)

I can understand BlackCoMerc not being any wise about this, but you, Hawk, must have been around when Vivergate happened and how fast nullifiers were introduced afyter that fiasco. You should be able to put two and two together.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Prany

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, Prany said:

Point of nullifiers was to stop players from sitting on boxes and pressing one button for entire mission. Now we need to at least point in their direction amd click. And look at that, nullifiers succeded.

Don't be so short-minded. That's a cheap justification. Wanna know what is cool? Bursas. Abilities work and you can't just instagib them from the front.

8 minutes ago, Prany said:

I can understand BlackCoMerc not being any wise about this, but you, Hawk, must have been around when Vivergate happened and how fast nullifiers were introduced afyter that fiasco. You should be able to put two and two together.

Yeah. And what did vivergate show? That some abilities worked so efficiently broken, suited on the perfect map. So instead of fixing the broken abilities, we should introduce a pest that renders EVERYTHING, even the non-op abilities USELESS, and also eradicates slow RoF weapons completely from corpus? Answer is: NO! And if we do want to introduce an enemy that counters abilities, do it fairly and balanced!

I'm able to put two and two together. And that's why i can see the flaws of the nullifiers and try to get a sense of balance and FUN into the game instead of just go and say: "we need them cuz we op so stop crying and git gud shoot them with soma or do slides hurr durr". That's the same logic as introducing a new super OP weapon because we "need" it to be able to beat a new raid or something. And then have people say: "Omg noob equip it or deal with the consequences." instead of nerfing the gun and balancing the raid. So please, don't be blind. Nullies have issues, and they need to be fixed.

[Prany]

7 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Yeah. And what did vivergate show? That some abilities worked so efficiently broken, suited on the perfect map. So instead of fixing the broken abilities, we should introduce a pest that renders EVERYTHING, even the non-op abilities USELESS, and also eradicates slow RoF weapons completely from corpus? Answer is: NO! And if we do want to introduce an enemy that counters abilities, do it fairly and balanced!

And as I have explained, nullifiers are both balanced and fair. Your only counter argument has been (to use your own language) "I wannawannawannawanna uze mah fave bow fuk your arguments wheeeeeeeeee". Because I guess automatic weapons have cooties or something.

And using FUN as argument because that totally isn't subjective.

As for balance issues of entire game, I agree as it should be fixed. But it has no sway on further development of nullifiers. Whether introduced as bandaid or not has no bearing. Only how they perform on their own merit. And they perform objetively well. Subjectively they however... well, opinions are free. Enjoy yours!

Peace!

[IceColdHawk]

34 minutes ago, Prany said:

Your only counter argument has been (to use your own language) "I wannawannawannawanna uze mah fave bow fuk your arguments wheeeeeeeeee".

That only sounds like that because i'm getting tired of repeating myself over and over and over again. Anyway, i got this piece of a post that i will post every time now. I completely forgot about it here, i'm sorry. It's a compressed version of the flaws of the nullifiers.

On 20.7.2016 at 11:38 AM, IceColdHawk said:

Nullifiers: The more you patch them, the more the community gets dissatisfied. Where we once could kill them with AoE, atomos lasers or even a glaive throwing in, it doesn't work anymore and thus the problem of the nullifiers just starts to get more noticable. Especially after "fixing" the inconsistency issue about nullies where they are now able to instantly destroy a stacked up frost globe JUST by touching it.

The problem is simple. I suppose nullifier got added to counter ability spamming which is fine i guess. The problem though is, they also counter anything which has not a high rate of fire to quickly dispatch the bubble. AoEs are laughably ineffective. Shotguns and Sniper/Bows just take too long and in general have not so much ammo as an assault rifle. And frames that actually rely on their abilities than being tanky on their own will look totally old. Good example would be vauban whose spells just get deleted by a simple touch by the huge bubble. Also a big problem is their rather high spawn rate paired with their habit of assaulting you rather than sniping you from afar.

So in conclusion, they encourage the usage of bullet spamming (à la boltor prime) to continue with CC spamming or just mindless "inside-bubble-meleesliding" which can be sometimes a suicidal move depending on your frame and which enemy appears to be in the bubble. Not to mention it dispells your ability buffs when you enter it. While the managing of your bullets, aiming and general sniping are just too ineffective to be considered. A good example of that IMHO would be the combas/scrambus. Everyone has their own type of abilities that he/she dispells and not just EVERYTHING. And you can counter them through a well placed shot against the helmet. That is good!

So, the question is, Are you considering to remove or tweak them accordingly to not be so annoyingly unfair compared to other units? Because as of now, they are more of an annoying enemy that restricts build diversity rather than being a challenge.

And while fun is subjective, balance and the fact we're getting locked out of a majority of game content and because of them, are not. And DE keeps removing counters like glaives instead of fixing it, adding more salt to the wound.

One last thing for you, since you've mentioned your problems with combas. Whilst they are almost completely unarguably better balanced, you've mentioned a big flaw which is the lack of telegraphing. But that is nothing that can't also be fixed.

Edited August 14, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[Prany]

I can see that you're repeating yourself. You're making arguments I've already countered.

Okay, okay, this time for real: Peace.

[IceColdHawk]

1 hour ago, Prany said:

I can see that you're repeating yourself. You're making arguments I've already countered.

I'm saying i'm repeating myself over all the countless nully threads, this was not directed at our personal discussion... But cool that you purposefully ignore my post and the countless other arguments in my quotation while pretending you have "countered" anything, other than coming up with the nonsensical "git gud" argument. My naramon banshee has no problems taking care of multiple lvl hundreds up to thousand corpus, still thanks for the advice. If you want peace, you shouldn't be throwing with stones while sitting in a glass house.

[BlackCoMerc]

I can relate, Hawk. Signed in today...did one exterminate mission. Took a look at other stuff...and logged out again. 

I'm already tired of running the same missions over and over again. I'm sick to tears of Horde Mode endless belongs-in-another-game garbage. And on top of all that, now I have to deal with the fact that powers are useless half the mission or more if I ever want to go after Prime stuff. 

No. Just...I cant even be bothered any longer. I'm trying to find the fun in a game whose developers just want to remove the fun as opposed to fixing what is broken. Eventually I'll just reach a threshold and quietly move on. And my wallet will go with me. 

I strongly suspect that, if my girl and I could find some other coop game that offered moment to moment to play as fun as Warframe, we would already be gone. Alas, we have done Borderlands to death...

[-Sandman]

I just gonna leave this here. 

http://blog.gameanalytics.com/blog/16-reasons-players-leaving-game.html

WF has been doing well to prevent those problems imo, but there comes a time when even the most creative genius gets writer's block I suppose. 

[KosmicKnight]

When it comes the nullifiers the bottom line is that they are not fun. From the majority of people I have talked to in game, it is the one enemy that detracts the most enjoyment from the game instead of enhancing it. They spawn too many and too often. While there is nothing wrong with having challenges or challenging enemies, this one enemy is the most annoying, in a very bad way.  And this is the one thing I think everyone can agree on, whether it is lore breaking or not. To those who think scramblers are more so, I understand your point of view as well, but when was the last time you came across three or more scramblers in one spot as often as you find nullifers? If we all can agree to this, it could go a long way to making so much needed changes we all want.

[rngd444]

5 hours ago, -Sandman said:

I just gonna leave this here. 

http://blog.gameanalytics.com/blog/16-reasons-players-leaving-game.html

WF has been doing well to prevent those problems imo, but there comes a time when even the most creative genius gets writer's block I suppose. 

This article is simply great.

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

I have seen at least 90% of my friends list quit because of Nullifiers. I know that sounds exaggerated, but it's not. Sometimes people make mistakes. Mistakes that nothing you do will fix. Nullifiers were a mistake and it's past time for them to go.

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

23 hours ago, -Sandman said:

I just gonna leave this here. 

http://blog.gameanalytics.com/blog/16-reasons-players-leaving-game.html

WF has been doing well to prevent those problems imo, but there comes a time when even the most creative genius gets writer's block I suppose. 

DE should read this.

[Sigmas71]

On 8/14/2016 at 0:23 PM, Prany said:

And as I have explained, nullifiers are both balanced and fair.

im sorry for not backtracking into yet another of these threads, but from what i gather you are white knighting for the nullifier like so many other players who havent considered the full picture. Or maybe they have, and are simply content to let this unit cater to their generic playstyle while allowing them to state the contrary.

anyway, we dislike the nullifier because its qualities combined make for a tedious enemy to fight. Not difficult nor easy. Tedious. Annoying. Note this is a video game. Some players play for fun, others for challenge, but I don't know anyone who plays to be annoyed. The nullifier is an extremely common enemy that counters 9 out of 10 things a player can do at any given time. The only sane ways to deal with them at high levels are the most boring by far (hold LMB or roflcopter). Do you still not see how it all adds up?

They are an effective counter to power spamming, but so are cooldowns. Removing warframe powers would have also been effective. The difference is basic and glaring and it amazes me to no end that players can't or won't recognize it. Its one thing to challenge your powers and skills, and another to challenge you by removing said powers and skills. One is making your progress worthwhile, the other is rendering it worthless.

One enhances the player experience, validates what he built in terms of gear, the skills he developed in terms of gameplay, and rewards him accordingly.

The other (Stripping your options away) does the opposite. Too many players see the nulli as a slap in the face - except of course for those who find it perfectly acceptable to require a spammable weapon in every mission - they were doing it anyway like 90% of the other games they play. 

One is actual challenge, the other is false difficulty. Lets not act like the nulli was the master plan all along, because from a game design perspective a NOPE enemy is as band-aidy as it gets. The nulli had its purpose and place, it has served said purpose but it no longer has a place. 4 to win is becoming rarer every update, and we want enemies that can challenge our skills in practice anyway