Power Creep is bad. Period.

[Epsik-kun]

2 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

You claim that WF should toss balance out the window

3 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

You keep on insisting that we need more powerful weapons

3 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

you want DE to have us burn those quickly

I have no idea who are you talking to, because it surely ain't me.

 

5 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

But also gearing up and running a 43k cryotic run on Triton

Well, and Diablo doesn't need all these drops, because you can just run it with the starting weapons as far as you can manage, thus getting challenge and "fun"!

 

I would really appreciate if instead of talking with the voices in your head, you took time to actually read and think about the post you're answering to. I only said what I've said:

1) A game like Warframe needs progression, otherwise it won't work;
2) Not understanding it isn't a valid point to oppose it;
3) Problems with it are problems with decisions and not with the system.

Every single time you cry over "more powercreep" you should be crying over something different, because "powercreep" isn't the problem. Problem with Broken War wasn't the "powercreep" of Broken War itself, it was the problem with weapon category that was left in dust for over a year, while everything else kept evolving. Even when it was released (prior to Shadow Debt event), Broken War was far from being "top tier" melee.

I don't say DE must release new stronger stuff every other day. I am saying, that de facto DE should and will constantly push the boundaries of "top tier" and it's inevitable, if they want their game to survive. How much time should pass between these "pushes" is up to them. Be it once in a month, half a year, or every major update.

Facing every single new item with "powercreep" screams is stupid and achieves nothing. What you should be focusing is whether or not it's time for that "powercreep", what it achieves and what it breaks. There's no point in treating it like a bad thing. It's an essential part of the game, it won't go away until DE decides to drop Warframe. Were you to question "why is longsword category collecting dust while everything else is progressing" instead of spamming forums with "more powercreep" whenever something new was released, we most likely wouldn't have the Broken War incident.

9 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

HUGE barrier between new and older players

Why do you think it's a bad thing? It's one of Warframe's more unique aspects. It was one of the parts that made me interested in the game to begin with.

[SquireAngel]

4 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

I have no idea who are you talking to, because it surely ain't me.

I don't say DE must release new stronger stuff every other day. I am saying, that de facto DE should and will constantly push the boundaries of "top tier" and it's inevitable, if they want their game to survive. How much time should pass between these "pushes" is up to them. Be it once in a month, half a year, or every major update.

Ctrl C+V from the very same post. GJ bro. Constantly is pretty, Y'know, constant. Every few months is occasionally. Either you need to learn what Constant means, never ceasing/stoping btdubs, or maybe read your own posts before posting them.

Well, and Diablo doesn't need all these drops, because you can just run it with the starting weapons as far as you can manage, thus getting challenge and "fun"!

Ah, yes, Because Wf is a top down class based RPG with clearly defined levels and a system that allows you to level indefinitely that needs &#! loads of loot to drop because there's no way to power up already moderately decent weapons. If only Wf had some sort of way to MODIFY weapons with MODifications...Hmm

 

I would really appreciate if instead of talking with the voices in your head, you took time to actually read and think about the post you're answering to. I only said what I've said:

1) A game like Warframe needs progression, otherwise it won't work;
2) Not understanding it isn't a valid point to oppose it;
3) Problems with it are problems with decisions and not with the system.

(You keep on insisting that we need more powerful weapons, when we need more content to burn in general. Higher guns should only come after we gain a new tier of challenge that calls for more powerful weapons.) that particular gem is Literally C+V from my last post, Who needs to read?

 

Every single time you cry over "more powercreep" you should be crying over something different, because "powercreep" isn't the problem. Problem with Broken War wasn't the "powercreep" of Broken War itself, it was the problem with weapon category that was left in dust for over a year, while everything else kept evolving. Even when it was released (prior to Shadow Debt event), Broken War was far from being "top tier" melee.

I don't say DE must release new stronger stuff every other day. I am saying, that de facto DE should and will constantly push the boundaries of "top tier" and it's inevitable, if they want their game to survive. How much time should pass between these "pushes" is up to them. Be it once in a month, half a year, or every major update.

Facing every single new item with "powercreep" screams is stupid and achieves nothing. What you should be focusing is whether or not it's time for that "powercreep", what it achieves and what it breaks. There's no point in treating it like a bad thing. It's an essential part of the game, it won't go away until DE decides to drop Warframe. Were you to question "why is longsword category collecting dust while everything else is progressing" instead of spamming forums with "more powercreep" whenever something new was released, we most likely wouldn't have the Broken War incident.

The term powercreep is based on a game increasing power acquisitioned to players or enemies without a correlating balance between both sides. Escalations on both sides is fine, it means the game is progressing into higher tiers of content, but if we simply amass stronger weapons while enemies stay as is, that's powercreep, and that's what we're concerned about and trying to ward off.

Why do you think it's a bad thing? It's one of Warframe's more unique aspects. It was one of the parts that made me interested in the game to begin with.

There's a progression wall between players, not a power barrier. If Wf was constantly uping it's power threshold, as you used constantly now and before, then a new player would never be able to catch up. Newer players should at least be able to cusp the gap between being a newb and being able to take on high tier content. I'm all for higher tiers of difficulty, meaning the need for equipment to meet said challenge. I'm not about to try tackling G rank (meaning GOD tier) quests on Monster hunter with low rank equipment. However, there should a reasonable timeline for players to be able to acquire those higher tiers of power. 

In the Qoute.

[Epsik-kun]

1 hour ago, SquireAngel said:

In the Qoute.

Have fun talking to yourself then.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I think Waframe handles this mostly gracefully compared to most games of this type honestly. Heck, I quit Destiny and DIablo 3 because it's idea of player progression is constantly rendering everyting you own obsolete with each expansion and forcing you to grind away and relevel everything.

At least with warframe, my five forma weapon usually stays relevant, even if a cool new toy that deals slightly more damage gets released every now and then... And due to mods, I feel like weapons and frames are defined by mods first, although an increase in base damage and for example, crit chance goes a long way sometimes.

And frankly, I don't mind having new toys to level and max...

What I care about is when a company takes something I love using , then renders it irrelevant because the want to coax me into getting new stuff...

 

Edited August 15, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Xamuswing]

6 hours ago, Kialandi said:

1) "There is nothing more frustrating than investing time, energy, and potentially money into a weapon or other item only for a more powerful version to be released later that outclasses it in almost every way. I'm not talking about something like Primes"

 

2) "You like the Dakra Prime right?"

 

Someone points out Fragor Prime with 35% crit chance

OP's reaction:

3)  "I'm not talking about something like Primes, which unless bought take a very long time to obtain for all the parts and materials. " Syndicate weapons are also in this.

 

He is not talking about Primes. In next paragraph he uses Prime weapon as an example. That's contradictory enough.

Then he disapproves when someone else uses Prime weapon as an example. That's just BS.

I meant "not talking about Primes" in that of course they are meant to be beefed up versions of older weapons. Not that I wasn't mentioning Primes at all. I don't understand how that can be complicated, but hey.

[haloamted]

On 2016-08-14 at 7:19 AM, Alcatraz said:

Oh you must of missed how nasty Fragor P is with 35% base crit chance...

Spent so much time getting despair sure, it is a good secondary, low to mid tier but it's not horrible. I actually spent very little time on it but this is besides my point for it.

My point about despair is this: You're here talking about "power creep" and how bad it is. IF YOU actually look at the situation you're basically wanting all these weapons buffed so good they are on par with all the new things. Except it doesn't work that way because if that was the case you'd have to keep buffing EVERY weapon in the game. There needs to be this so called "power creep" because you can't just use the same weapons forever, get over it, or find new ways to use them. Despair will take you through the solar system no problem, only high end stuff would you need to switch to Spira Prime.

So to remove power creep you just keep buffing all the old weapons and never make anything new. You just keep buffing all the old stuff you've used for weeks/months/years that have gotten stale or boring to you. It all makes sense now.

I will say that it is your choice to complain about this, also your choice to not to use these power creepers either and stick with your old weapons, that's fine, really it is. But you got to add new weapons, both high and low tier weapons to suit everyone new and old. Add more flare and flavor with fancy new weapons rather they can handle level 150+ or not. Think about it.

 

I didn't want to write anything myself anyway.

 

                                                                                                                                                     ^{_{Steal my thoughts again and I'll find you.}}

[Gireen_AEN]

16 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

And Warframe is essentially Diablo.Yes, it's good to have sidegrades here and there, but if you make everything into them - the game will lose its purpose.

Having different tiered weapons is not power creep. Having weapons that are objectively better than other weapons in the game is not power creep.

Making the top tier of every weapons obsolete after every patch, making expansion after expansion that removes the Dakra Prime in favor of the Nikana Prime and then the Nikana Prime in favor of the Galantine Prime is what leads to power creep. There's a difference between making end-game content like primes or syndicate weapons and making every weapon stronger than the last.

If DE had a list of 40 prime/syndicate weapons where they were like: "Ok guys, these are the top-tier version weapons we have in the game. This is end-game content", then that would be fine. That's perfectly alright. But the ever changing status of the best melee/primary/secondary weapon in Warframe is bad.

Quote

You might not realize it, but Warframe is a bad shooting game. It's a bad hack'n'slash game. It's a bad parkour game. What works for it is the way all these elements are incorporated together. The way they work. It's fun to experiment with builds from time to time, but if you want to make this "experimenting" to be the selling point of the game - you'll fail. Warframe has no gameplay to support such policy. Even more, very few games out there can hold up to that standard.

I don't think so. 

I mean, it's hard to combat a statement like "it's a bad game" but Warframe for me has always been about the good types of progression like formas, exilus, syndicates, my madurai progress, etc. The gameplay isn't currently as compelling as other 3PS but it's not bad to the point of no return. It can be improved and perfected. What I have never enjoyed is "the illusion of progress through the constant release of more and more powerful weapons".

Quote

In such game you have to have a purpose. A reason to play. Current reason is the constant progression. The grind. Warframe is a game about grind. You grind a lot and you get rewarded with new stuff, new tools for more efficient grind, new limits you can try to break. Remove that, and you'll have a very "meh" beat'em'up game with guns and no content, that'll keep you interested for maybe 50 hours while it's a fresh experience. Which is actually pretty good amount of time, for a single-player game that's it. I have over a thousand of hours in Warframe exactly because of the illusion of progress. Remove that - and you'll remove the reason for me to play this game. And not only for me - for the vast majority of the people, including the ones who cry about "powercreep".

Do you think I'm against grind? I understand most of the content in this game is only available through the grind. That's ok, because there's just not a lot of unique interesting content in the game and (I guess I'm alone in this) I find the core gameplay of this game to be quite fun.

Do you think I'm against progression? I understand that everyone here plays for the progression. Progression in the game keeps the player going. 

I don't think you've spent thousands of hours for the illusion of progress. I don't think you farm cool gear with the thought in mind: "I'd like to get this so it can be replaced later by the Dragon Nikana/Nikana Prime/War/Galantine Prime". I think you like getting better at the game, getting MR, getting a larger arsenal, getting your clan more organized, etc. 

Quote

Now, there are bad cases - there always are. Like Broken War example, that made obsolete every other weapon of the category, followed by new mods that made the whole weapon category obsolete. However, this is an example of a bad design decision, not of a faulty system.

Mmm, no. The Broken War is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, and now they're making a Galantine Prime that's going to be just like the War except it's probably going to be better and more powerful. That's what power creep is. In the coming months you will find the War slowly fading away as you realize that DE makes the same "mistake" over and over again.

Quote

Primed frames and weapons are an amazing idea - they give you something to work towards. New mods are an amazing thing - again, they give you a reason to play the game. They give you an opportunity to experiment with something new. Primed Pressure Points and Primed Fury were an amazing addition for everyone who goes "sword only" into the game - after almost a year of zero progression, we finally got an opportunity to become stronger.

Primed mods aren't power creep so much as they're added goals for the tenno to have, which is fine. When I get a primed fury, I know that this is end-game content and that it probably won't ever be made obsolete if I spend my time maxing it. What wouldn't be fine is if over the course of the next couple years they released six different new variants of "pressure point", each more powerful than the last, until eventually I just threw in the towel dissatisfied that all the gear I have will be replaced every time DE comes in with a great new update.

Quote

Having a lot of viable sidegrades is good, really good. But you need power tiers. You need weak starting weapons, you need middle-ground that can carry you through the game and you need viable late-game gear that allows you to push your limits. All of these create the purpose of playing the game. And especially for people who already on this stage of "viable late-game gear" you have to add new content that surpasses the current one, otherwise these people will lose interest to play.

I don't think DE should take EXACT tips from Riot's business model. Obviously this is a game where there are going to be weapon tiers and there's going to be end-game content that's better than the MK-1 paris. But that End-Game shouldn't be constantly moving the goalposts. The "end-game" content is no longer available when power creep is present, because the REAL end-game content is timelocked indefinitely. It causes players to use equipment they don't want to and part with the weapons they enjoy, over and over again. It causes casual players to feel like they don't make progress, because every few months the goalposts have shifted and suddenly they're formaing the wrong weapons. It makes people who take breaks from the game come back and feel obsolete because their gear is worthless.

If you're correct, and this game needs to constantly re-release new equipment to survive, then this game is in a sorry state indeed.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Gireen

[Malindros]

Is there such a thing as power creep on endless missions?

 

I think not.

 

If you feel like you are too powerful, unequip some mods...there is nothing making you use full power on anything, other than you!

[Sigmas71]

This post is relevant because gear progression in warframe is an absolute mess. Also because fashionframe is the only widely accepted endgame. 

Here's an easy solution: Make more skins for each weapon, and let us equip said skins on any weapon in the same class. Result: you keep grinding for the best gear as it gets released, but now you can have them look like the older weapons if you so choose. 

Here's a difficult solution: Equalize enemy scaling and stats on a more gentle curve, and establish a ceiling for weapon performance across all categories based on this curve. Next, we are ready for a proper gear progression system with tiers. Mastery rank should be relevant, but also mastery of lower tiers in the relevant weapon category should be needed in order to progress into the primes, etc. Fiiinally, we could benefit from a system wherein players are allowed to continuously invest in a weapon (through forma or otherwise) in order to have it reach the performance ceiling. High tier weapons will require little investment to reach this effective ceiling, while mk1 braton will require long hours and a ton of forma. In the end this will allow DE to freely sidegrade weapons, as well as increase the ceiling for more powerfull weapons in the future and not leaving the rest of the arsenal behind. (since power creep will now mean you can continue to invest in your favorite gun and have it perform as well as the shiny new stuff)

overall i think adding some skins would be ok for now. Gram looks so badass, i have barely even touched heavy melee in the years since it was outclassed. 

[Gireen_AEN]

1 hour ago, Malindros said:

Is there such a thing as power creep on endless missions?

 

I think not.

I don't even

[Epsik-kun]

3 hours ago, Gireen said:

If you're correct, and this game needs to constantly release new equipment to survive, then this game is in a sorry state indeed.

It isn't a "sorry state", it's reality. You can't have a PvE game to be alive for years without constantly adding content.

I ain't saying that your point is "incorrect" though. What I am addressing is people freaking out whenever something new is released, chanting "powercreep" like its their last hope for survival. I understand what you mean by treating it as a more specific case of progression done incorrectly, but in the community it's used as a universal buzzword to label everything viable added to the game.

People are afraid of the change so they are trying their best at screaming meaningless whatever without even trying to analyze the situation. Hence we are having this thread and people who say Warframe can use sidegrades for everything, because LoL does so.

I do agree, that a lot of decisions DE makes on releasing new stuff is highly questionable and rarely justified. As I do agree that for the complete feeling of progression new content is required - not only equipment.

However, what people call "powercreep" here isn't the problem - it's the game nature. Bad design decisions are bad design decisions - nothing more, nothing less. Critique should focus on these decisions and not on the model. Wishing to change the model equals wishing to change the game genre which honestly is a stupid idea.

[Gireen_AEN]

7 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

It isn't a "sorry state", it's reality. You can't have a PvE game to be alive for years without constantly adding content.

Sorry - Edited my post to better state my thoughts. I think that might've been a typo. I understand that DE has to add new content or else it will die, it's an MMO, that's how MMOs work and DE is right in adding new quests and features and progression systems. Just not reskinning weapons and throwing bigger stats on them and calling it "new content".

Edited August 16, 2016 by Gireen