How exactly can a weapon be abused? What makes abusing different from simply using?

[zehne]

I have to half agree with the whole 'Simulor is abuse' argument, if only for the reason that I feel that it dulls my 'skill'.

The problem with my above statement is that I almost always bring Simular on missions.  Why do I contradict myself?  Because I abhor tonkor, I can't stand weapons with low fire rates.  I need a decent AoE weapon because the meta of warframe is many enemies from many directions.   I love my Braton P, and all the other weapons with 'quantity kill potential' that are single target but they can't keep up at times.

Currently I own a Tonkor, Simulor, Staticor, Penta, Amprex, Embolist and Kulstar.

Torid is next on my list to check off.  The problem I have is that out of all those weapons I don't use some because they self damage way too much to reliably use, especially on infested ship maps.  Tonkor has too low fire rate for my taste, continuous weapons aren't my style.  This pretty much leaves me with Staticor and Simulor. 

I like the Staticor, but the range (of the area effect) is low unless attacks are charged(and then it has low 'fire rate', slow travel time).   But I also like my Lex P, Spira P and Tysis.  This cuts the list of my two choices down to just SImulor.

I use it because it makes sense, not because I love using it.  One demonic orb spamming PoS 'rationalized' and another one million to go.

 

tldr;

SImulor exists, it's used en-mass for a reason(s). 

 

 

[Azrael]

3 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

Same principle with Ember's WoF. If *generic you* brings an Ember and just spams WoF running around the map passively burning everything to crisp, you are also taking away other peoples fun.

Yes it is, and people frequently complain about it. The difference is that WoF doesn't scale well, so that people can't nuke entire maps in the sorties as ember. If that weren't the case then ember would literally be a "press 4 to win" frame and it would deserve a hard nerf.

6 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

1. Do Vortexs block your shots like Forsts bubbles?

No, of course not. But the argument is the same. The reason why it's not okay is just different. The point is that saying "I find it fun" and "It's a PVE game" do not excuse all behavior no matter how inconsiderate. While the spamulor doesn't block shots, it does make it hard to see and aim. When you're (generic you, again) in a defense mission and the mirage is running around the entire room spamming vortices there's simply no way to "move past them."

[(PSN)Lacifarus1188]

20 hours ago, Zyrgi said:

Pretty much this is what I gather from the comment on the topic.

Sure, Mirage + Simulor can trivialize some content, but I wouldn't call it abuse. It's just efficient way of dealing with enemies. Besides Mirage is very fragile and can easily be downed in return. I would endorse slightly lowering the range of Simulor's explosions, however. Peronally I don't run Mirage + Simulor everywhere, because most of the time, I don't need to kill everything. Mirage + Simulor possesses that overkill potential that is borderline niche so I wouldn't call it abusing at all. In addition if devs haven't patched it, I assume it's working as intended and it cannot be considered abuse.

I agree with this. It really feels like when anyone complains that something is "broken", its more of a play style opinion than actually broken. So mirage with simulor pops up in your team, sweet, guess this is an easy run and free loot. I personally don't play mirage because I find her boring as hell, but I'm not going to *@##$ and moan because someone is clearing the board faster than me. They usually end up saving me some time so I can get back to the important stuff. Fashion frames.

[Weltraumfred]

Abuse happens if you make the game unfun for your fellow players and/or trivialize content to the point of solving endgame missions by buttonmashing.

Of course, everybody has different opinions of what is OP, and what diminishes their fun.

My own consequences:

I won't use tonkor or Simulor. I won't use Ash until he gets a rework. I won't use Mirage. I don't put stretch on my Ember, but still use WoF.

And I'll mostly quit squads containing Mirages or Ashs. Unless I feel particularly lazy.

[Arithin]

WF community is great, but it does tend to foster a few weird notions.  Being critical of other people's frame and weapon choice is one of them.  Labeling use of powerful weapon/frame combos "abuse", armchair developer calling for nerfs to popular setups, and otherwise having strong opinions on how everyone but yourself plays the game.

 

Let's be real here, with a small amount of forma the mk1 series can be 1 shot powerful for nearly all content baring sorties and raids.  Its fine if you think you're skillful by using a sniper rifle instead of explosive weapons.  But one shot easy is just a part of warframe.  And as always, if you want a slower mission place then making your own squads or going solo is very much an option.  Tilting or calling "abuse" because someone takes ember on a level 10 exterminate alert is just silly.

 

As with all shooters, the challenge comes from fighting other people.  But instead we get a niche conclave scene and a 7 page thread of people trying to convince each other that tonkor/mirage in a farm map is the devil.

[SinergyX]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Lacifarus1188 said:

I agree with this. It really feels like when anyone complains that something is "broken", its more of a play style opinion than actually broken. So mirage with simulor pops up in your team, sweet, guess this is an easy run and free loot. I personally don't play mirage because I find her boring as hell, but I'm not going to *@##$ and moan because someone is clearing the board faster than me. They usually end up saving me some time so I can get back to the important stuff. Fashion frames.

There are a few frames out there nulifying majority of the team, interception/defense a banshee can lockdown the entire map for several minutes, a Valk can just run across the map in 2+ hour survival clicking the support stations (grineer/infested, corpus alot less), Invaras can pretty much solo any given spy/rescue mission (with augment).

But on that thought, why did they touch Hysteria then? Wasnt it easy mode for the rest of the party when a Valkyr joined? What was the point of fixing that then?

My point it, a banshee wont kill that room, it locks it down. A valk can run for support stations, but it wont be enough to continue (time vs stations), it doesnt over-extend the edge of the mechanics of a given weapon or frame. To that point i say, if you bypass the initial mechanics completly of a weapon/frame (4/5 to create vortex) by a single, and only a single, frame, something isnt really working out very well.

like some werent happy with Ember's firebuff (for example Ignis), but if you take the damage boost on weapons, several can actualy do this (rhino, ember, chroma, with augment to a degree mirage also, mesa in a lesser), Chroma can use its frame to up the reload speed and Volt/Valk can increase attackspeed, but in no mean they can actualy bypass the base mechanics of a given weapon/gun (as in others can not achieve with mods or buffs), with a little exception of banshee and zephyr on the silence/bullet speed (note, as far i am aware of), additional to the fact the stack damage isnt scaled with mirrors (would should be thus lower).

 

[Azrael]

29 minutes ago, Arithin said:

WF community is great, but it does tend to foster a few weird notions.  Being critical of other people's frame and weapon choice is one of them.

It's not about criticizing somebody's tactics or weapon choices or frame choices. It's not about who gets more kills or whether they're trying hard enough. It's about asking for some courtesy, and that people not act inconsiderately. Many people have explained why running in circles spamming the simulor as mirage makes it harder for the rest of the team to play at all, much less enjoy themselves. Are you saying that basic courtesy is a weird notion?

 

34 minutes ago, Arithin said:

Tilting or calling "abuse" because someone takes ember on a level 10 exterminate alert is just silly.

Who here has complained about ember?

 

35 minutes ago, Arithin said:

And as always, if you want a slower mission place then making your own squads or going solo is very much an option.

And if someone wants to burn through every mission in the game with a simulor without ever aiming even one time, they have that same option. But I suppose it's easier to tell anybody who wants to actually play to go play solo, then it is to take other people into account once in a while.

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Yes it is, and people frequently complain about it. The difference is that WoF doesn't scale well, so that people can't nuke entire maps in the sorties as ember. If that weren't the case then ember would literally be a "press 4 to win" frame and it would deserve a hard nerf.

For the first fifteen minutes of any mission, WoF can kill things pretty easily and at very long range. It's the same principle.

1 hour ago, Lord_Azrael said:

No, of course not. But the argument is the same. The reason why it's not okay is just different. The point is that saying "I find it fun" and "It's a PVE game" do not excuse all behavior no matter how inconsiderate. While the spamulor doesn't block shots, it does make it hard to see and aim. When you're (generic you, again) in a defense mission and the mirage is running around the entire room spamming vortices there's simply no way to "move past them."

No it is not the same at all. Frosts globe completely blocks your shots. Vortex doesn't. That is the bottom line.

You are correct in saying that not all behaviour is acceptable in a PVE game, but this argument of "I can't see enemies so you shouldn't use that" is completely ridculous. I bet if the Simulor's effects were turned down completely you'd still complain about not getting the most kills. Like I said, it takes less than a few seconds to move beyond a vortex and get a good shot, so instead of sitting there trying to squint through it and crying when you can't, why don't you just move? In defence missions just simply find a spot and stay there. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by LorianTheElderPrince

[(PSN)Lacifarus1188]

24 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

It's not about criticizing somebody's tactics or weapon choices or frame choices. It's not about who gets more kills or whether they're trying hard enough. It's about asking for some courtesy, and that people not act inconsiderately. Many people have explained why running in circles spamming the simulor as mirage makes it harder for the rest of the team to play at all, much less enjoy themselves. Are you saying that basic courtesy is a weird notion?

The only issue with that is a lot of people play games for their own enjoyment without considering others. I could honestly care less what anyone else in this game thinks about how I choose to play. Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to intentionally be an A****** and try to ruin other peoples fun but I will generally do what I can to make any run go as smooth as possible without intentionally upsetting others.

I tend to play solo a lot because, for instance, I don't care about finding faction rep items in the syndicate missions and I don't want to get *@##$ed at for blowing through the mission.  It's a two way road though, and I feel those who want to find every little thing should queue solo, or with like-minded people, because a lot of people just want to blow through syndicate missions and not find the rep items. This way they can find the items at their leisure without harassment from idiots. Opinions though.

Courtesy isn't a weird notion at all, it just doesn't matter to a lot of people online and there are no consequences for "ruining other's fun". Pretty sad really, but a lot of people aren't raised with manners or a general sense of decency.

Edited August 17, 2016 by (PS4)Lacifarus1188

[LunarEdge7]

Looking through all these comments make me wanna sum up a good point:

DE, NERF SIMULOR ALREADY. Ammo consumption, ammo type, ANYTHING.

[hammerheathen]

To me abuse of mechanics is when you are PUGing or something similar and using a combo powerful enough to prevent other people from actually playing.

I have powerful gear, but a lot of the time when I PUG I slow myself and my shots down so other people have an actual chance to fight and play the game. I generally also ask my teammates and if they don't mind then I let loose. It's more about courtesy. Unless there are leaderboards or something, I'm actually pretty meh about it, It's ok to feel powerful, but not so much to take options away from other people.

[LunarEdge7]

14 minutes ago, hammerheathen said:

To me abuse of mechanics is when you are PUGing or something similar and using a combo powerful enough to prevent other people from actually playing.

I have powerful gear, but a lot of the time when I PUG I slow myself and my shots down so other people have an actual chance to fight and play the game. I generally also ask my teammates and if they don't mind then I let loose. It's more about courtesy. Unless there are leaderboards or something, I'm actually pretty meh about it, It's ok to feel powerful, but not so much to take options away from other people.

I like your courtesy a lot then.

[DxAdder]

17 minutes ago, hammerheathen said:

To me abuse of mechanics is when you are PUGing or something similar and using a combo powerful enough to prevent other people from actually playing.

I have powerful gear, but a lot of the time when I PUG I slow myself and my shots down so other people have an actual chance to fight and play the game. I generally also ask my teammates and if they don't mind then I let loose. It's more about courtesy. Unless there are leaderboards or something, I'm actually pretty meh about it, It's ok to feel powerful, but not so much to take options away from other people.

Each to there own but in a PUG its A FFA, you should expect nothing other than the mission will get completed.

I bring the best frame and gear to utterly crush what ever mission it is, I don't want to waste my time constantly scraping casuals off the floor because they die every 30 seconds in a mission. 

[Ditto132]

6 hours ago, Redthirst said:

Real world is different from video games. In video games, developers are gods who can change any fact, provided they have the desire and the skills required.

 

Which doesn't change the fact that most mission types are slight variations of "kill everything"(granted, it was getting better, but the progress is slow) and the map design is uninteresting(maps look cool, but they don't play very well).

As for core, damage system is fine on paper, but it's poorly implemented.

Current Warframe is a deeply flawed game, that can become truly incredible if those flaws are addressed.

Developers create rules and logic for the game but they still have to obey those rules/logic when creating contents so that everything stay coherent.
As long as any newly contents/systems introduced or any existing contents/systems changes that does not conform to the rules and logic, it will break the whole game.

This game is not just about "killing everything" and any major variations could be considered a new game. Not sure what variations you would like to see introduced?
In my opinion, it is better to get new contents/updates/reworks done properly then to get them out fast and ended up problematic. Panic, stress, overworked and pressure from community that demands hotfixes that doesn't solve the root of the problem. Snowball effect...

[Karamethien]

2 hours ago, DxAdder said:

Each to there own but in a PUG its A FFA, you should expect nothing other than the mission will get completed.

I bring the best frame and gear to utterly crush what ever mission it is, I don't want to waste my time constantly scraping casuals off the floor because they die every 30 seconds in a mission. 

 

Isn't this the reason why you play Solo?  If you want mission done fast just solo it.  

Or are you the type of player that jumps on the elevator and just go without waiting for everyone else?

[(XBOX)Bortis Badtouch]

9 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Well I did spent 2hrs to read through all the posts before mine, do some researching and analysis, format for readability and be as objective and factual as I could before posting. So I really appreciate people that bother to read and understand my posts.

If we don't use logic for discussion, what should we use?
Don't people think that most posts are rather meaningless that only spread false/misleading information and hate/aggression when they posted like they are sending SMS message based mostly on their current mood?

From the perspective of the player not enjoying the game, it seem like the weapons/frames/combos are being abused.
When you are not enjoying the game due to other player's playstyle, I don't see it as improper usage. It is just overused due to its efficiency.
To be honest, Warframe gamplay is rather deep due to lot of community feedbacks and changes.

I view it as statistic board, showing how much kills you contributed to the team, how much you revived your teammates and the amount of loots you picked up. You win as a team.
Those data requires context to be meaningful. For example, it could be that the most kills player was killing using Soma with support from a Banshee using Sonar and Sound Quake for crowd control.

I am agreeing with you but people don"t want to listen to the truth, for example one weapon ruins some guys day for 15 minutes in a survival and he gets on here and cries to the nerf hammer, he is not going to listen to reason.

I think people need to take a step back and see that this a CO-OPERATIVE SHOOTER AND IT CAN ALSO BE PLAYED SOLO but no people don't understand the word co-op, it's a never ending cycle, if a weapon is "good or goes well with a warframe" it will get nerfed into the ground , it's like talking to a brick wall on here sometimes.

Accomplishing things with people on here doesn't exist.

[Eminem2420]

i assume people are referring to the players that purposely make overpowered combos to trivialize the content they're playing. Mirage and the Synoid Simluor is a prime example.

[DxAdder]

36 minutes ago, Karamethien said:

Isn't this the reason why you play Solo?  If you want mission done fast just solo it.  

Or are you the type of player that jumps on the elevator and just go without waiting for everyone else?

I have no problem waiting for people in most cases 

Edited August 17, 2016 by DxAdder
Opps

[Eminem2420]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Bortis Badtouch said:

I am agreeing with you but people don"t want to listen to the truth, for example one weapon ruins some guys day for 15 minutes in a survival and he gets on here and cries to the nerf hammer, he is not going to listen to reason.

I think people need to take a step back and see that this a CO-OPERATIVE SHOOTER AND IT CAN ALSO BE PLAYED SOLO but no people don't understand the word co-op, it's a never ending cycle, if a weapon is "good or goes well with a warframe" it will get nerfed into the ground , it's like talking to a brick wall on here sometimes.

Accomplishing things with people on here doesn't exist.

I don't disagree, but the word co-op means EVERYBODY can contribute. When a mirage and synoid simulor comes in a mission, you don't get any chance to do anything. That isn't a team player. That is a player best suited for solo.

[DxAdder]

Just now, Eminem2420 said:

i assume people are referring to the players that purposely make overpowered combos to trivialize the content they're playing. Mirage and the Synoid Simluor is a prime example.

So people shouldn't use forma or Primed mods on there Frames and Gear ?

[Eminem2420]

Just now, DxAdder said:

So people shouldn't use forma or Primed mods on there Frames and Gear ?

I didn't say that, I didn't imply that. Please don't try to put words in my mouth.

[(XBOX)Bortis Badtouch]

2 minutes ago, Eminem2420 said:

I don't disagree, but the word co-op means EVERYBODY can contribute. When a mirage and synoid simulor comes in a mission, you don't get any chance to do anything. That isn't a team player. That is a player best suited for solo.

ah, you just proved my point, what i said above is true, DONT LIKE THE MIRAGE WITH THE SIMULOR LEAVE THE GAME, nothing is stopping you from leaving that game in that instant, and if you say "i can't leave cuz of muh rewards" then go sit in a corner or at extraction until they are done, very simple fix for your "problem"

[DxAdder]

Just now, Eminem2420 said:

I didn't say that, I didn't imply that. Please don't try to put words in my mouth.

Yes your sorta of implying that people that use Meta Setups to complete missions efficiently as possible are doing this.

 

[Eminem2420]

Just now, (XB1)Bortis Badtouch said:

ah, you just proved my point, what i said above is true, DONT LIKE THE MIRAGE WITH THE SIMULOR LEAVE THE GAME, nothing is stopping you from leaving that game in that instant, and if you say "i can't leave cuz of muh rewards" then go sit in a corner or at extraction until they are done, very simple fix for your "problem"

You are showing the exact problem. Nobody should leave because somebody can't play as a team. If there are 4 people in a squad, why should 3 have to leave because of one person? It doesn't make sense.

[Eminem2420]

Just now, DxAdder said:

Yes your sorta of implying that people that use Meta Setups to complete missions efficiently as possible are doing this.

 

No, I didn't. I'm not here to argue semantics.