How to Solve the Issues with Nullifiers, "Draco-style" Gameplay, and Overpowered Players Simultaneously

[Marthrym]

5 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Thanks.

I know full well that it's foolish of me, but I actually have a small sliver of hope: A while back I wrote a huge thread on overhauling Dark Sectors into a proper end-game set apart from simple node-grinding in collaboration with Phaenur. We got a ton of positive comments, and I arrogantly PMed the thread to the devs after it went several pages without a single bit of "no, I don't think that would be a good idea."

The general premise of the concept was emphasizing exploration as the primary goal, using existing mission objectives to affect the environment to allow exploration, and starting enemies out as tough but scaling them more slowly.

Years later, Steve says that their upcoming changes to Dark Sectors will make it more about exploration.

Is it likely that my thread specifically inspired this change? Maybe not... but I want to believe that this shows the devs will take note of well thought-out ideas and take them as inspiration for the general direction of changes.

Do I expect this system to be implemented verbatim? No. I would still like to see something (anything) taking the combat system in a direction like this.

If it takes a year for them to swallow their ego and accept to use other people's ideas every time this happens... We will all be gone playing in "greener pastures" by then, sadly.

I sincerely hope that if they do take this, and the many thread before it, into account, it won't take that long again.^^'

Edited August 21, 2016 by Marthrym

[achromos]

11 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

You realize you're shooting yourself in the foot with this?^^'

You're basically asking that we further break the game and tip the scales even more towards an all or nothing? How about we try something that makes sense instead, hm?^^'

you do realize that both my point of view and yours is rather subjective.  I find enjoyment in how the game is NOW and don't want that to change.  I like how this game is.

 

23 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

So, because you don't want to give up the freedom of casting your powers whenever you want, you want to introduce more enemies that shut down said powers entirely... without changing the fact that enemies are balanced around us using our powers to shut them down?

That does not sound like an enjoyable experience to me, and it definitely sounds like an illusion of choice.

At least if we couldn't be expected to CC everything continuously, they would need to balance our survivability options around non-constant enemy lock-down.

Yes, unless we take notice of said enemies and prioritize taking them down.  Again you are entitled to your opinion and I hope they find a happy medium for all of us of differing opinions.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 minutes ago, achromos said:

Yes, unless we take notice of said enemies and prioritize taking them down.  Again you are entitled to your opinion and I hope they find a happy medium for all of us of differing opinions.

Of course. Cheers.

Here's hoping that if they go with your idea, they don't neglect adding better threat identifiers.

[Marthrym]

11 minutes ago, achromos said:

you do realize that both my point of view and yours is rather subjective.  I find enjoyment in how the game is NOW and don't want that to change.  I like how this game is.

 

Yes, unless we take notice of said enemies and prioritize taking them down.  Again you are entitled to your opinion and I hope they find a happy medium for all of us of differing opinions.

Of course every opinion is subjective. The problem with yours is just that it is exactly that we are currently seeing in action, live, ingame, right now, but cranked up a few levels. And you want to make it even worse by adding more enemies that simply TURN OFF abilities instead of balancing said abilities to themselves not TURN OFF enemies completely all the time? Are you serious?^^'

And again, when HALF the enemies can do what you ask AND protect the OTHER half that can't, HOW do we prioritize? It's ALREADY a mess right now, with half of the enemies being priority targets, and you want to add MORE? In what world is that a sound, logical train of thought? Especially considering we already have quite a telling example already sucking away all the fun and the challenge the game could provide if it was tweaked?

I can't even. This is way too irrational a way of thinking, even for me.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Marthrym

[DiabolusUrsus]

Let's try to stay calm and civil, guys.

[Thunderblunder66]

[Dogefighter]

I'm a teensy bit iffy about this, but overall this sounds well thought out and completely viable.

[Hayabusa97]

2 minutes ago, Dogefighter said:

I'm a teensy bit iffy about this, but overall this sounds well thought out and completely viable.

Yep. Only problem is all the angry people it will produce, but it would be pretty foolish to expect any form of change, good or bad, without people getting pissed off.

[(PSN)bonateIIo]

12 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Let's try to stay calm and civil, guys.

You did good with your topic, quite civil. Don't you sleep though?

After sleeping, I'm still of the same opinion. That its too much work and a bit too complicated.

I remembered 1 more thing, I was tired yesterday and forgot to mention that.

all of the issues that are talked about here are actually non issues for the main demographic of this game.

The issues that we only understood after playing for hundreds of hours were never really seen or paid attention to during first few hundred hours.

What I mean by that is that WE players that put quite a bit of time in this game, we do not matter. And its not a bad thing, thats just how things are most of the time.

 

8 minutes ago, Thunderblunder66 said:

-/-/-

There is nothing to lock if you took time to  read through few pages.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, (PS4)bonateIIo said:

You did good with your topic, quite civil. Don't you sleep though?

After sleeping, I'm still of the same opinion. That its too much work and a bit too complicated.

I remembered 1 more thing, I was tired yesterday and forgot to mention that.

all of the issues that are talked about here are actually non issues for the main demographic of this game.

The issues that we only understood after playing for hundreds of hours were never really seen or paid attention to during first few hundred hours.

What I mean by that is that WE players that put quite a bit of time in this game, we do not matter. And its not a bad thing, thats just how things are most of the time.

I do sleep. I stayed up really late last night for unrelated reasons, so I'll probably be sleeping early today (work tomorrow, too).

I agree that we've got less importance than is commonly acknowledged, but I also think that making changes to issues that surface after many hundreds of hours shouldn't have too great of a bearing on the first few, except possibly making the game more engaging to start.

When I first tried WF after it came out on Steam, I played three missions or so and then promptly uninstalled. It was really flat and uninteresting to play, and it felt very gimmicky. I reinstalled with some buddies who wanted to try it and we had a blast. I don't think the basic gameplay has come very far since U7 in terms of gimmicks and flat repetition, but it at least has a lot more variety.

[(PSN)CuddlyZebesian]

It's amazing how people complain about nullifiers, then complain about frames or weapons being OP.

Instead of wanking about with what to nerf next, why doesn't DE just up the ante a bit? It's not really that hard. Hahah I made a funny.

In fact, the entire premise on having to nerf for PvE is irrational. The entire goal of a game is to be well, good at it. If you're complaining that people are good at a game, perhaps it's YOU that needs to change, not everyone around you.

[achromos]

1 hour ago, Marthrym said:

Of course every opinion is subjective. The problem with yours is just that it is exactly that we are currently seeing in action, live, ingame, right now, but cranked up a few levels. And you want to make it even worse by adding more enemies that simply TURN OFF abilities instead of balancing said abilities to themselves not TURN OFF enemies completely all the time? Are you serious?^^'

And again, when HALF the enemies can do what you ask AND protect the OTHER half that can't, HOW do we prioritize? It's ALREADY a mess right now, with half of the enemies being priority targets, and you want to add MORE? In what world is that a sound, logical train of thought? Especially considering we already have quite a telling example already sucking away all the fun and the challenge the game could provide if it was tweaked?

I can't even. This is way too irrational a way of thinking, even for me.

The problem with YOUR way of thinking is that warframes eventually get watered down to the point where it matters more what primary, secondary, and melee weapon you bring.  That is something I don't want.  I rather the game stay as it is right now.

The problem with the whole Nerf Bregade and people like you, is that you think that this game should be another generic shooter like Destiny.  We have hundreds of those 'balanced' games where each fight can end you if you get shot in the face.

How about one fun game, where you can go crazy?  How about Fun?  There is a place for challenge.

It's called Dark Souls.

There is a place for challenge, and there is room for it, but I don't advocate destroying fun just so you can throw your E-Peen around because 'lawl too easy'

 

They need to fix enemies to make it easier to prioritize targets, let's look at what they did to the Ballisticas.  that's a good change, right?  Instead of getting shot out of nowhere and dead, you can actually tell if you are about to be gibbed.  It is possible, even in the midst of combat. 

I want stronger priority enemies, this game obviously isn't losing it's current popularity.  It's been on it's highs and lows and it's currently inbetween major releases.  It doesn't need to be the Next CoD but with PvE.

 

Like i said before.  Your opinion on Fun is subjective.

I and plenty of other people who don't go to the forums to complain about balance (because happy people don't complain, they enjoy the product)

This is Fun, To me.

 

This isn't Fun, to you.

Just because it isn't Fun, To you does NOT make it not fun, for me or others NOR does it make it wrong.

 

 

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

It's like people want Warframe's player base to shrink

[DrBorris]

The biggest issue with the OP is all of the unwritten stuff that would also probably need to change.

• We still have insane scaling on our side (Serration multiplying elemental values, Critical stats, etcetera)
• Enemies still have insane scaling
• Enemy AI and abilities favor an "Individual enemy vs Warframe" playstyle rather than a "Horde vs Warframe" playstyle.

DE would have to buckle down and pretty much cancel all new content for a major update (And we saw how that went with SotR) to truly give us a rework like this. But this reads like a very nice change.

 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000 said:

It's like people want Warframe's player base to shrink

Sigh, really? Does it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, there is another way? That maybe a big reason Warframe has trouble holding on to players (a lot quit, a lot join, some stay, few stay for the long haul) is because the game turns into a "who can cheese who faster?" Warframe is all about changing to become better, unless you think this aspect of Warframe is perfect as it is, how would you make it better?

Edited August 21, 2016 by DrBorris

[(PSN)CuddlyZebesian]

10 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Sigh, really? Does it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, there is another way? That maybe a big reason Warframe has trouble holding on to players (a lot quit, a lot join, some stay, few stay for the long haul) is because the game turns into a "who can cheese who faster?" Warframe is all about changing to become better, unless you think this aspect of Warframe is perfect as it is, how would you make it better?

Oh cut the bs already. DE could easily make better changes that provide a reasonable challenge to those higher up in skill level yet the people lower HAVE to complain about...

No you know what? This is a waste of my time and I would rather enjoy playing the game before people like you ruin it and I go back to my other games.

[Thunderblunder66]

Listen, Warframe is not meant to be a challenging game, if you want a hard game, then go play something like Nuclear Throne or Dark Souls, the goal of Warframe is to be as OP as possible, deal with it.

[(XBOX)Zebs 3619]

19 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. Both of these issues are fundamentally linked to players having tools at their disposal that are much too powerful for anything the standard* game can throw at them.

* Standard as in either on the Star Chart, part of an official challenge mode (e.g., Trials), or part of an event. High-level enemies that are encountered as a result of endless mission types are not considered.

O.O have you been playing on Saturn for the past few years?

A lot of these "OP" builds exist because they are Specifically NOT designed for the Starchart. they dont exist to farm standard rhino blueprints or a random nitain capture alert. They were to kill enemies at wave 60+ in t4 defense, survive Solo for an hour(s) in t4 survival.  To make the most out of rarer keys, while farming prime parts with a 0.00001% drop chance.

the " High-level enemies that are encountered as a result of endless mission types are not considered" kinda invalidates everything you could say afterward because those enemies were a Large part of the game for most of us that went beyond saturn. 

But if you are Completely ignoring that entire section of the game, which is now pointless since the need for Void Grinding is Gone, you should be aware that everything in the starchart is incredibly easy to kill with melee alone. If you think what we have is to strong for level 30 enemies than you are asking for an Enormous game wide Nerf of literally everything. my stuff is tested against level 135 corrupted heavy gunners, but even bad builds will kill a level 30 heavy gunner in about the same time. the only point my "OP" stuff startings winning medals is when we step into the " enemies that are encountered as a result of endless mission types"  territory. 

If basic builds are OP for the starchart than crit weapons become OP, the new melee mods which make them finally usable become OP, putting Forma on anything automatically makes them OP, prime mods are OP. I know because when I was just starting out, I was surviving an hour in t3 survival when I only had Rhino and a Latron wraith more than a year ago. before I even put forma or a potato on it. 4 people with bad weapons, poorly modded, crushing heavy gunners around level 80. warframe powers didnt even need to enter the picture. (few volt shields and a rhino roar)

for new players playing with other new players, the game scales decently.
but this is a PVE game, allowing new players and veterans to play together. if I join your Public lobby, as you begin an Alert, with a warframe and weapons I spent Hundreds of hours playing with and building and happen annihilate everything on Venus without activating a single ability, so what.

And now that Relics make the void meaningless and everything is easy to get against easy enemies.... is the 5 seconds i might be saving every mission destroying someone's fun? that my shotgun can kill a level 15 enemy in 1 shot and not 2 from a player that didnt potato their weapon... im hurting their experience? should i only play in full lobbies with other MR22's as we crush earth for no reason or turn my lobbies to invite only incase a mr2 happens to join me, if set to public. i dont get it.

>.> i can slowly spin in circles aiming my Quanta Vandal at head height towards the Horizon and kill everything. I can point at a choke point and fire continuously for 20minutes in a survival before it takes a millisecond longer for them to die. but so what. it took around 2000+ hours to get to the point where i can now get 5% more polymer bundle a game, cause i killed 100 more enemies. 
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Zebs 3619/video/20770744

this game doesnt need nerfs. if anything it needs more varied enemies that dont punish/cheese the player, but instead encourage varied play. 
Halo should be a good example of this. (warthogs are OP cause they run enemies over in large numbers)

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Zebs 3619/video/20770997
 

its tactical dynasty warriors in space after you spend enough time or money. powers or no powers, everything is going to die quickly. its fun.

 

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000 said:

It's like people want Warframe's player base to shrink

It's like some people think anybody will be heartbroken whether they leave or not. Also, Warframe is popular because it's a good multiplayer framework with pretty graphics and lots of fanfare, not because it's got amazing gameplay.

44 minutes ago, (XB1)Zebs 3619 said:

*snip*

No, but endless content where these meta builds are necessary is not supposed to be balanced for in the first place. That's why I'm not giving it any consideration.

1 hour ago, Thunderblunder66 said:

Listen, Warframe is not meant to be a challenging game, if you want a hard game, then go play something like Nuclear Throne or Dark Souls, the goal of Warframe is to be as OP as possible, deal with it.

According to you. There are a lot of perspectives on what Warframe is or is not "meant" to be. Your goal is to be as OP as possible, my goal is to see Warframe become a game that would be worth playing even without the loot carrot that drives us all. We have different opinions, and you are not somehow more correct than I am. Deal with it.

[DiabolusUrsus]

13 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Playing the game ≠ using powers. When I'm running a Heat build on my Ignis, I don't really see the need to use Fireball. Ever. I have plenty of energy, but the only time I use it is when I feel like using Fireball rather than accomplishing a specific task. Basing regen on something you wouldn't otherwise be doing isn't necessarily bad, but I am wary of its implications. Movement, by contrast, is something you're almost always doing in WF if you're engaged.

Okay, but are you using Accelerant? WoF? Fire Blast? Any of your other weapons? Also, see OP; replaced passive generation over time with movement-based generation. More substantial gains aimed at fueling your entire energy economy should be attained through specific mods IMO.

13 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Ok, but I think it's reasonable to try to ensure that they're actually doing something in order to get the reward rather than abusing an innocent wall.

My point here is that it changes the state of "sitting around watching the paint dry" to "sitting around scorching the paint with a Fireball every now and again." It's not fundamentally different, just more tedious.
On that note, though, it might be reasonable to give return of flux energy for successful use of powers so that you reward good power use with more opportunity to use powers, and by extension more potential for saturated energy. (though that means having the reward be tied to cast rather than regen, which may or may not change a lot?)

See suggested alternate setup under Explanation 1 and tell me what you think. The partial cost refund for "skillful" use is an interesting concept. I'll keep it in mind.

13 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Vivergate would beg to differ. I mean, yes, that's a bad example... but mistakes will be made if they really do just drop changes on something integral like the energy system.

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again: I want modding tools, and I want a "preview" server that gives a chunk of the community a way to give informed feedback on systems as they're being developed.

Vivergate only stood out because DE had previously not exactly established a reputation for knee-jerk and hasty reactions to perceived problems. Tweaks and adjustments that should have taken a single hotfix took years to come down the pipeline, and the nature of the hasty changes (aimed at XP grinding) seemed dubious at best to a large portion of the community. All I'm saying is that DE could stand to capitalize more on their "beta" tag and be more liberal with changes.

If change is more regular, people will a) get less upset about it, and b) have reassurance that bad changes aren't going to last a long time.

13 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Welp, that just reinforces the advantage Soma P had over Boltor P, and welds the nail to the coffin on basically all the bows. Sure, people will still use them, but they're even further disadvantaged than they would be without these changes.

But the whole point of having a diverse arsenal is to have real choices. If you know Soma Prime is always the best choice, any other weapon is just window dressing.

You're still looking at this as though your energy generation must come from your primary, which is not the case. There may be some other metrics we can throw in to mitigate this a bit, but I don't think we'll be able to strike a sweet spot where some weapons aren't inherently advantaged over other weapons when it comes to accomplishing certain tasks. 

13 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

They do.

D:
Then again, this is all hazy memory late at night, so maybe I'm just misremembering.

That... needs to change, though it's not as bad now that it affects movement only instead of attack speed as well. Also Sentient resistances are not the absolute worst thing ever... even the peanuts damage is still manageable with most weapons. It just strikes me as a really shoddy mechanic. Kinda like when Guardsmen/Prosecutors  were hyped up as melee enemies to fight with the new combo system and they ended up just having arbitrary (and ultimately meaningless) elemental resistances. I can't really blame DE for having a tough time coming up with entertaining mook fights, but that doesn't help me being disappointed.

13 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Here's where I link you to another thread that you should totally check out... tomorrow https://forums.warframe.com/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-819-nightfall-and-daybreak/

Basically my life. Except for the parts where I'm not playing Warframe.

I've seen Archwizard's thread and it's a fairly good bet that whenever they post something I agree with it. I can appreciate retuning all the Warframes to be more intuitive to play under the current mechanics, but there are also a lot of current mechanics I would like to see improve.

[DiabolusUrsus]

12 hours ago, (PS4)WiiConquered said:

Didn't think of those. It could be a double-click activation, where pressing the button again during the cast animation causes the change.

I actually think the opposite. I bet it could be implemented in a few hours (obviously it should be tested for longer). But it steepens an already-difficult learning curve, which is why I suggest making it a universal system for all powers.

1. Ehhhhhhhh that sounds like it's getting too complicated in terms of control bindings for my liking. Perhaps they could rebind the power swap to a separate key (not that I have any immediate ideas on the matter).

2. Even if the learning curve was steepened a bit, it would simultaneously flatten out the progression curve tremendously. Sustaining your abilities (which everyone can agree are crucial) suddenly becomes feasible from the beginning of the game instead of from whenever you acquire the right set of corrupted mods and auras. I think that alone would help make the new player experience less of a slog, and it would certainly make needing to spend a bit more time learning a frame's nuances more palatable.

On another note, check out Expansion 1 in the OP and tell me what you think. This kinda strays further into the whole "steepening the learning curve" issue you mentioned... but DE could honestly solve that problem almost entirely with a short intro video for each Frame on the website and in the codex (accessible from the arsenal, preferably) detailing the basics of their kit... kinda like what they have over on the Overwatch site at the moment. (Haven't played/watched any of that game, but one of my buddies was talking about it and I took a look.) 

[GrimAtrament]

ew draco please no let it die

[Lichcontract]

22 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Invisibility would be slightly modified into a flux toggle. Go invisible, flux starts draining. Go visible, flux regenerates. Loki generates saturated energy at Y rate while invisible. Fits into the "utility buff" category.

Shock would generate flux energy on initial cast, with a bonus to energy generated based on how many enemies are affected by the lightning chain (# of hits). Fits into the "attack" category.

I like the idea and think it's better than our current 75% efficiency (30% in your system would be a fair number tbh) but I still don't understand how it would work. A few questions I have are:

1. How fast is the recharge of Flux energy?

2. What would the cap be for each energy pool be for each frame e.g. Volt Prime with a Primed Flow has 850 energy atm, with your system would it become 425 Flux and 425 Saturated?

3. Do you have to reach the cap of Flux energy to start generating Saturated energy?

4. How would it interact with the Focus system e.g. would Zenurik generate Saturated since it's utilizing pure void energy from the Operator or would it just supercharge Flux energy?

5. How would enemies and hazards that drain your energy interact with it? Would it take Flux, Saturated or both energies?

6. What criteria would each power need to have in order to be assigned to fit in the categories of Defense, Attack, Utility?

Forgive me if these are stupid (I haven't read the whole thread yet) but these kinda just popped into my head.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, Lichcontract said:

I like the idea and think it's better than our current 75% efficiency (30% in your system would be a fair number tbh) but I still don't understand how it would work. A few questions I have are:

1. How fast is the recharge of Flux energy?

2. What would the cap be for each energy pool be for each frame e.g. Volt Prime with a Primed Flow has 850 energy atm, with your system would it become 425 Flux and 425 Saturated?

3. Do you have to reach the cap of Flux energy to start generating Saturated energy?

4. How would it interact with the Focus system e.g. would Zenurik generate Saturated since it's utilizing pure void energy from the Operator or would it just supercharge Flux energy?

5. How would enemies and hazards that drain your energy interact with it? Would it take Flux, Saturated or both energies?

6. What criteria would each power need to have in order to be assigned to fit in the categories of Defense, Attack, Utility?

Forgive me if these are stupid (I haven't read the whole thread yet) but these kinda just popped into my head.

 

1. Flux energy would recharge about as fast or a little faster than the old stamina. So, from almost complete depletion we're talking 1, maybe 1.5 seconds to full recharge. This would obviously be delayed a bit on overheat.

2. It should vary from Frame to Frame. Some frames might have a larger flux pool and smaller saturated pool, some might have a larger flux pool, and some might be split almost down the middle. It would ultimately come down to how their kit worked, though.

3. No. Flux and saturated operate as entirely separate bars, aside from the fact that using flux fill the saturated bar. Whether it's full, empty, or anywhere in between, the transfer should work. It's not "overflow," it's just a percentage.

4. Focus is an entirely different beast, and I would actually like to see Focus Actives transformed into the sort of "super mode" we were originally told to expect instead of "Floaty Ghost Kiddie that lasts a few seconds." So Madurai would be a state of intense, OP offense... Vazarin would be lots of counters, Unairu would be nigh invulnerability, etc. This was originally going to be part of a super-massive polish thread where the Focus system and its superpowers would preserve the players' ability to "be OP" to compensate for better balance in the rest of the game. This would, of course, be balanced out by a limited duration and a time-limited factor (though hopefully something other than a cooldown). In other words, particularly powerful passives would be augments to the actives, which would last say 30 seconds at base. Thus Zenurik could actually afford infinite energy to both flux AND saturated without completely breaking the game.

5. I would say that simple environmental hazards like Grineer doors should just overheat your flux, and if there are enemies that can attack your powers there could stand to be some variety.

6. How the power is supposed to be used, and the devs' discretion, which is why I'm eager to discuss possibilities here. For example, Saryn's Spore and Molt are kind of integral to her basic potential for damage and survival, so those would be flux abilities while Toxic Lash and Miasma would be fine as saturated casts. (Though there's a case to be made for Toxic Lash being flux as well...) Spore would probably fit into the Shock model of casting generation, where it's not going to generate as much on initial cast, but can get extra benefit from spreading to more enemies. Molt would be fine as-is for a lump-sum decoy-style entity. 

Key questions to ask when thinking about how to assign flux/saturated status and generation mechanics:

1. How much access to this ability does the WF need to succeed/play smoothly?

A lot? Should be Flux. Not as much? Should be saturated.

2. How does this ability function?

Affecting one enemy? Lump generation on cast, extra for successful use. Multiple enemies? Smaller generation on cast, extra for successful use with a bonus for multiple targets affected. Let's say Bastille was a flux ability. I would say you should get energy on cast and for each additional enemy caught in the field. Repelled enemies from the augment don't count. Tesla might generate very little energy on cast but provide more every time it shocks something.

It's hard to come up with a general rule of thumb that would be broadly applicable without exception off the bat.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

30 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. Ehhhhhhhh that sounds like it's getting too complicated in terms of control bindings for my liking. Perhaps they could rebind the power swap to a separate key (not that I have any immediate ideas on the matter).

Maybe; it wouldn't be bad on a controller, but it might not flow as well on a keyboard. Though because of the casting animations I don't think it would feel too bad.

30 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

2. Even if the learning curve was steepened a bit, it would simultaneously flatten out the progression curve tremendously. Sustaining your abilities (which everyone can agree are crucial) suddenly becomes feasible from the beginning of the game instead of from whenever you acquire the right set of corrupted mods and auras. I think that alone would help make the new player experience less of a slog, and it would certainly make needing to spend a bit more time learning a frame's nuances more palatable.

The energy acquisition changes would definitely have the new player effect, but I've got no issue with that. I still think making the system affect all abilties in some way is ideal.

30 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

On another note, check out Expansion 1 in the OP and tell me what you think. This kinda strays further into the whole "steepening the learning curve" issue you mentioned... but DE could honestly solve that problem almost entirely with a short intro video for each Frame on the website and in the codex (accessible from the arsenal, preferably) detailing the basics of their kit... kinda like what they have over on the Overwatch site at the moment. (Haven't played/watched any of that game, but one of my buddies was talking about it and I took a look.) 

I might not actually make using powers increase energy at all. In theory, powers make it easier to kill. So, provided the powers are used well, players will be able to get more energy from kills. I'd also make heals, team damage protection, and aggro draws from objectives give energy too.

That way, rather than needing a person to program how effective players are being, the results can speak for themselves.

 

The bizarre thing with your note about frame videos is that they already exist--before each frame is released DE puts one on some corner of this website, but for some reason they're not in the market or the codex or arsenal or anything.

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

It's like some people think anybody will be heartbroken whether they leave or not. Also, Warframe is popular because it's a good multiplayer framework with pretty graphics and lots of fanfare, not because it's got amazing gameplay.

What? nobody mentioned about others being heartbroken over people leaving so fall back also Warframe is known for it's gameplay.

Edited August 22, 2016 by (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000