How to Solve the Issues with Nullifiers, "Draco-style" Gameplay, and Overpowered Players Simultaneously

[DiabolusUrsus]

6 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

This bugs me, because while the claim this, every single game type they introduce promotes this exact thing, especially all the defense style missions.

Yeah, never said they were doing a good job of working toward it. Which is why I think they need a different approach.

5 hours ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Oh dear, tried to read through all of the Retune *all* the Frames thread. Gave up pretty quickly. You guys theorycraft like wizards...105 pages is a little too much for me.

Now relevant stuff:

I like attacking the fundamental problem of easy-to-access map-clears/shutdowns by changing the energy systems and access, but for a variety of reasons I absolutely loathe drawing resources from more than one energy pool, so I'm not particularly fond of the flux/saturated duality. I have a counter-proposal for energy access, and one that is easily loresplained:

Warframe Integrity. Warframes are used to harness void energy and manifest it in unique ways, which constitute our powers. However, there is absolutely no way that the Orokin got everything perfectly right, and that warframes can handle the stress of void energy without fail. They lose integrity.

Instead of changing where the energy comes from, change the consequences: If too much energy is used too rapidly, the integrity of the frame gets compromised. Shields are removed automatically and health starts to decrease until the frame snaps out of the power at 5 health, and adds unique effects (while health decreases) to the character, such as poison, bleed, or a scrambled UI.

The idea is to add a substantial cost to extended power use, and disincentives spamming of cost-intensive powers. To accompany this idea, every power should have a new energy cost, one that is more in line with what the power actually can do. It makes no sense that Frost's ultimate costs a mere 4 times more energy more than his 1, and do so much more than four 1 spams could ever do.

The end result is that we will have to think twice about using map-clearing abilities, making us access the same amount of power with much greater cost to ourselves.

I can't take complete credit for this idea, but I've always really liked it, and prefer it to two separate energy pools.

And I am equally un-fond of things like durability where the game isn't built around maintenance. Not that I dislike the gritty notion of "imperfect" weapons. Definitely an interesting alternate proposal, and probably simpler than mine... though I don't want to lose the benefits to channeling and modding diversity.

1 hour ago, Shockwave- said:

" Saturated energy is generated as Warframes move around their environment using evasive maneuvers and parkour (credit to ChronoEclipse) '

Uh, no... emphatically NO. This is ridiculous. Sorry but bopping about an empty room to get your energy back is silly. A frost in his globe defending the pod is supposed to be defending the pod... not parkouring around to get his energy back. Killing enemies maybe, but not dancing around for nothing. Gameplay should encourage completing the objective not this kind of meta stuff. Completing the objective may not require parkouring around - so the only reason to do it is it somehow recharges your batteries?

And a Frost in his Snowglobe doesn't need to be moving about in order to regain energy. All he needs to be doing is casting Freeze/Ice Wave, cutting down enemies in melee, or shooting them... depending on his build. 

The movement is an alternative to passive generation, though I'll admit I'm still not completely fond of the idea. Let me fix that.

[Eminem2420]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 5:09 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

Yet in order to get a reliable supply of energy, you MUST do one of those things... (I know there are other ways, but they fall into the same category of things you MUST do to gain energy.)

So either way players will always be "forced" to play the game in a certain way to some extent.

Point being, my system does not place any additional unreasonable restrictions on player actions... and it provides the benefits I have described thus far.

What you are purposing helps nobody. I can get a reliable source of energy by playing normally, I don't have to do anything special. You can sugarcoat it all you want, you are simply forcing people to play how you want. If this system were implemented then I would leave WF. I'm not going to run around like a chicken with its head cutt off just because you want me to.

[--Q--uaint]

4 hours ago, Eminem2420 said:

I can get a reliable source of energy by playing normally, I don't have to do anything special.

You haven't specified what your source of energy is, exactly.

Is it Energy Siphon? You aren't playing, you're waiting.

Energy Overflow? You are waiting so that you can wait some more.

Energy Orbs? You are running around "like a chicken with its head cutt off" even if you're using Carrier. Or do you just run Greedy Pull Mag 24/7?

Rage? You are waiting for enemies to hurt you.

Energy Vampire? Waiting for another player to give it to you, or spending a significant amount of your time doing jack-all just so you can have energy.

Energy pizzas? The only valid reason for using these at all often is raids, and you almost certainly already have an EV Trin there.

 

The one and only one thing I will grant you is gaining energy by using Toxic Lash and Spores to feed yourself energy... but that's a niche playstyle in a relatively rare 'frame.

 

The proposal in this thread is about giving you energy for:
a) using abilities other than your "strongest" ones (Which you should, theoretically, already be doing. DE didn't remove ability mods from the game for nothing.)
b) using channeled melee attacks, which is just as good or better than the Spore/Toxic Lash thing mentioned above
c) shooting with the right mod equipped... if you aren't shooting and aren't meleeing, then what are you doing?

4 hours ago, Eminem2420 said:

You can sugarcoat it all you want, you are simply forcing people to play how you want.

I think I have thoroughly debunked this statement. If you think otherwise, feel free to give your well-reasoned reply.

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

*snip*

Thank you very much for saving me a good 15-20 minutes of repeating myself.

[Schrodingers_Bodybag]

On 9/7/2016 at 5:26 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

Thank you very much for saving me a good 15-20 minutes of repeating myself.

You seem to be doing that alot, word of advice if I may? Don't bother.

When someone completely ignores multiple points of your post(s) repeatedly and starts trotting out the "you're wrong because you're wrong"; it usually means they've attached their egos to their opinions. 

Familiarity is drug, the more one receives the worse the addiction gets. Personally, I'd stop addressing such posts and move on with your day. You've put alot of thought and effort into suggestions that may or may not get implemented, that itself is definitely worthy of praise. 

Edited September 10, 2016 by Schrodingers_Bodybag

[DiabolusUrsus]

Thanks much, I appreciate it.

[RavingRoman]

Here is my personal opinion that could make nullifiers a little more bearable to fight in game. Warning, I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if anyone said exactly what I am about to say.

> Glass physics - Nullifier bubbles should have something like glass physics. Shooting one part of a bubble will leave a hole in the bubble as if a chunk broke off. This way, snipers only need to shoot twice to put down a nullifier.

> Changing the geometric shape of the bubble - Instead of being an invincible dome around the nullifier, why not make it into a forward wall barrier that passing through triggers the primary function.

 

Personally, I am really a fan of the glass effects because it would just really make us feel more powerful breaking the darn thing instead of the slow and frustrating shrinkage.

[DiabolusUrsus]

15 hours ago, RavingRoman said:

Here is my personal opinion that could make nullifiers a little more bearable to fight in game. Warning, I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if anyone said exactly what I am about to say.

> Glass physics - Nullifier bubbles should have something like glass physics. Shooting one part of a bubble will leave a hole in the bubble as if a chunk broke off. This way, snipers only need to shoot twice to put down a nullifier.

> Changing the geometric shape of the bubble - Instead of being an invincible dome around the nullifier, why not make it into a forward wall barrier that passing through triggers the primary function.

 

Personally, I am really a fan of the glass effects because it would just really make us feel more powerful breaking the darn thing instead of the slow and frustrating shrinkage.

That's certainly an interesting suggestion, and not one I'm against,  but a key point is that we need to address the fundamental reason why nullifiers were added to begin with before we can go about adjusting them to be more tolerable.

[RavingRoman]

8 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That's certainly an interesting suggestion, and not one I'm against,  but a key point is that we need to address the fundamental reason why nullifiers were added to begin with before we can go about adjusting them to be more tolerable.

From my personal understanding in observing how the nullifiers work, they're supposed to be something of Anti-Tenno units. The purpose of their existence is to vary the player style to add more caution to their methods rather than blazing forward. At least perhaps that was the purpose at its core. However, the mechanical make up of the enemy unit is far more overpowered than it was intended to be. This being the trouble most players have of being stripped of their offensive capability while being pinned down without their powers. Enemies end up synergizing a lot better than we could and it becomes far too difficult and frustrating for us in the long run.

I've been having trouble myself in void fissure missions where I find myself facing 5-10 Bombards all together with 1-2 Ancients standing way out of range behind them. The result, I get assaulted with so many near-one-hit-kills missiles and I cannot deal any form of damage in return, (Yes, this has been happening to me, and it is upsetting a lot of the time especially in tight corridors.)

Edited September 13, 2016 by RavingRoman

[DiabolusUrsus]

15 hours ago, RavingRoman said:

From my personal understanding in observing how the nullifiers work, they're supposed to be something of Anti-Tenno units. The purpose of their existence is to vary the player style to add more caution to their methods rather than blazing forward. At least perhaps that was the purpose at its core. However, the mechanical make up of the enemy unit is far more overpowered than it was intended to be. This being the trouble most players have of being stripped of their offensive capability while being pinned down without their powers. Enemies end up synergizing a lot better than we could and it becomes far too difficult and frustrating for us in the long run.

I've been having trouble myself in void fissure missions where I find myself facing 5-10 Bombards all together with 1-2 Ancients standing way out of range behind them. The result, I get assaulted with so many near-one-hit-kills missiles and I cannot deal any form of damage in return, (Yes, this has been happening to me, and it is upsetting a lot of the time especially in tight corridors.)

The general consensus is that nullifiers are 

a) cheesy overpowered enemies, and

b) the dev response to overpowered players.

That's what I was getting at. The devs put them in to shortstop us facerolling everything because we can CC entire maps into oblivion, so we need to address player power before we can reasonably expect nullifiers to be made more tolerable.

[RavingRoman]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The general consensus is that nullifiers are 

a) cheesy overpowered enemies, and

b) the dev response to overpowered players.

That's what I was getting at. The devs put them in to shortstop us facerolling everything because we can CC entire maps into oblivion, so we need to address player power before we can reasonably expect nullifiers to be made more tolerable.

I'm with you on that note. It is a creative difficulty to keep things balanced without making one side too strong due to mechanical functions of both players and enemies. So far, I think DE is currently addressing the player powers with the nerfs a lot of people are complaining about. Personally, I don't mind these nerfs as long as it does not detract the main assets a specific warframe is supposed to have. But warframes aside, I do believe the issue with the nullifiers have to be address immediately only because it is causing a bias for different weapon types.

[tnccs215]

9 hours ago, RavingRoman said:

I'm with you on that note. It is a creative difficulty to keep things balanced without making one side too strong due to mechanical functions of both players and enemies. So far, I think DE is currently addressing the player powers with the nerfs a lot of people are complaining about. Personally, I don't mind these nerfs as long as it does not detract the main assets a specific warframe is supposed to have. But warframes aside, I do believe the issue with the nullifiers have to be address immediately only because it is causing a bias for different weapon types.

Goes beyond that. At each (god sent) Nerf, their existence becomes less and less justified. Anti cheese units on a game without cheese is a terrible design choice. Moreover, several frames at substantially hit harder by nullifiers than others.

Rebecca mentioned how she, when using Nyx, just "popped in, meleed, and popped out" the bubble.

Try doing that with Peaceful Provocation Equinox.

[RavingRoman]

41 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Goes beyond that. At each (god sent) Nerf, their existence becomes less and less justified. Anti cheese units on a game without cheese is a terrible design choice. Moreover, several frames at substantially hit harder by nullifiers than others.

Rebecca mentioned how she, when using Nyx, just "popped in, meleed, and popped out" the bubble.

Try doing that with Peaceful Provocation Equinox.

That is an issue indeed. However, I think this where our weapons are supposed to compensate for things that our warframes cannot do as you mentioned. Each of them are meant to have different playstyles and the weapons we equip should act as a way to "hybrid" our gaming styles. However, there is a clear definition on which weapons work and which ones don't, and our options are even more limited than we want it to. I don't know anything to fix the issue of the treatment between the seeming unfairness. The only thing I can think of is the aforementioned solution for the nullies, only considering our fire arms. I'll post a solution for your stated problem when I can think of one.

[--Q--uaint]

20 hours ago, RavingRoman said:

However, there is a clear definition on which weapons work and which ones don't, and our options are even more limited than we want it to. I don't know anything to fix the issue of the treatment between the seeming unfairness

I had a thought about that recently: Make it so Nullifier bubbles don't have a damage cap as such, but they can only be damaged to 60% of maximum below their current level.

That's a bit of a weird sentence, so let's unpack a bit.

Nully bubble has 100 energy at full. I shoot it with my <lolzendgameweapon> and do as much damage as I can possibly do with each shot.

The bubble now begins shrinking, and the target value it's shrinking to is 40 energy.

If I shoot the bubble again after it's only shrunk to 90% of its full size, I'm basically wasting ammo since the bubble's new shrinking target is (90-60=) 30 so I only removed 10 energy

If I wait until the bubble shrinks to 60% of its full size, I can finish it off in two shots. I also have a bit of slack here since the bubble will keep shrinking for 20% more after it goes below the threshold where it can be destroyed with one more hit.

This still isn't nearly fair to bows, but it's waaaaaaaay fairer than what we have now.

 

Also, @DiabolusUrsus, I have an interesting proposal to change what they nullify: Make them only work against Saturated abilities.

They would simply suppress any saturated ability they encountered, so your Vex Armor/Snowglobe wouldn't help you while the nully is there. Any suppressed ability would immediately resume full effectiveness after the bubble is no longer on top of it.
They still protect from nukes, but 'frames are still unique even in nully fields because now we can use our flux abilities against them freely!

This provides interesting differences between 'frames in their counterplay to nullies. As an example, take my Ash/Loki/Ivara ideas and pit them against a Nullifier.

Loki says "Hmm, there are dangerous things in that bubble, and I can't disarm them. But wait, Invisibility is a flux ability now! I can just pop that and go melee the nully away."

Ash says "Bladestorm and Smoke Screen don't work? Fine, I'll use Teleport."

Ivara says "Prowl doesn't work, but I have Cloak Arrows so I'm fine."

It now disrupts your flow a bit, but doesn't entirely reduce you to your guns.

[._Vendetta_.]

On 05/09/2016 at 4:55 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

The movement is an alternative to passive generation, though I'll admit I'm still not completely fond of the idea. Let me fix that.

Make it a warframe mod, this way we can move and parkour to recharge void energy on missions and frames whenever that would make sense sloting, but we would be forced to compromise 1 slot for it, tho with this system probably most builds would have 2-3 slots dedicated to void energy generation fitting for the mission and frame (forces more thinking ahead strats, I like it)

Some concepts of mods that could be used to regen void energy: Based on Combo Counter to reward meele, Based on headshots to reward precision gameplay, Based on Parkour for those who like to run like a crazy all around, Based on taking dmg (like Rage), etc... ofc they would have to be balanced.

Edited September 15, 2016 by ._Vendetta_.

[._Vendetta_.]

On 07/09/2016 at 10:44 AM, Eminem2420 said:

You can sugarcoat it all you want, you are simply forcing people to play how you want.

Not as much as nullifiers currently force you to rely on weapons to kill it (and even discriminate between low and high rate of fire weapons, non-sense)

He is not restricting you any more than you already are by other means (that you sometimes don't even realize), the most annoying enemys on warframe are there to counter some of our strongest/abusable habilities, keep them us control, what he proposes its just to separate those habilities from the others, so that we don't get ALL our habilities countered/restricted by DE solutions, because they were not even made for that.

An example, Low energy sorties could then be changed to "low void energy sorties" and we would have a lot more at our disposal, the restriction only hitting where it was supposed to hit in the first place, the abusable strongest habilities.

That being said, how and how much you would gain void energy its not actually all that relevant (for now) and would probably need a lot of trial and error to come up with.

Edited September 15, 2016 by ._Vendetta_.

[DiabolusUrsus]

15 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

*snip*

I really like the sound of both of those suggestions, though I'd originally suggested making them stop flux casts but unable to suppress saturated casts. This was based in the logic that

a) part of what the community really dislikes about them is that they offer up an effective defiance of Tenno powers... so making it such that the Corpus can counter our weaker abilities but still can't hold a candle to our truly strong powers should be fairly satisfying, and

b) that the system would put enough of a clamp on saturated casts that nullifiers shouldn't be necessary to mitigate them.

Still, I've got no problem with flipping that relationship on its head and making it so that nullies counter the less interactive powers instead.

[._Vendetta_.]

On 15/09/2016 at 8:36 AM, ChronoEclipse said:

Nully bubble has 100 energy at full. I shoot it with my <lolzendgameweapon> and do as much damage as I can possibly do with each shot.

The bubble now begins shrinking, and the target value it's shrinking to is 40 energy.

If I shoot the bubble again after it's only shrunk to 90% of its full size, I'm basically wasting ammo since the bubble's new shrinking target is (90-60=) 30 so I only removed 10 energy

If I wait until the bubble shrinks to 60% of its full size, I can finish it off in two shots. I also have a bit of slack here since the bubble will keep shrinking for 20% more after it goes below the threshold where it can be destroyed with one more hit.

@DiabolusUrsusThis still isn't nearly fair to bows, but it's waaaaaaaay fairer than what we have now.

 

Sorry but adding that people would have to time their shots so that they can destroy the bubble with fewer shots in the middle of the battle sounds like a horrible idea to me.

While I can't really come up with anything that completely address the problem I'm against any bandaid to "reduce unfairness", we should aim for a new nullifier concept that completely undistinguishes the rate of fire of a weapon from another in terms of effectiveness of dealing with the bubble, as nullifiers shouldn't punish any kind of weapon choice in any extent.

(especially weapons that reward precise shooting like snipers and bows as they are "more active" gameplay that DE seems to be seeking)

Btw i'm MR13 but the forum hates me.

Edited September 16, 2016 by ._Vendetta_.

[I3jionaa]

Nullifiers - let the bubble scale, in starchart it becomes trash mob, bubble 1-3 shooted. Problem solved 90% of people happy. Now for real do not do that :D Race to extraction allready pretty big deal for majority of the missions. Currently bubble scale is mainly fire rate. Make it hp scale based - snipers/bows gonna be happy, machineguns will be left over. Make it clip size based - if weapon clip size <=10 then 2 head shoots kill nullifier even if the bubble has not shrinked, melee and guys who cant score head shots would be left over. To please everyone is very difficult task.

Draco style - stop promoting efficient groups where watching is rewarded ! Cut shared affinity for those who watch to 1/10. How ? Use a killing blow solution - u kill u get all the sweets! (Affinity increase definitely would be needed for such deeds). Now u need to compete for kills and no more watching. Engaging enough !? But my rank 0 weapon cant kill anything at berehynia! There are other planets, play other nodes. But i am support frame i cant kill enemies with my abilities. Kill with ur weapons, u doing the job u get partly affinity for warframe/weapons vice versa. Wow it's real hard to level up support frame now. Well u gotta sacrifice for community who hates cheese.! We can't please everyone.

Cool idea about energies, it partly aims to impact CC meta if i got that correctly, but thats very fragile line between success and disaster.

[DiabolusUrsus]

14 hours ago, ._Vendetta_. said:

Sorry but adding that people would have to time their shots so that they can destroy the bubble with fewer shots in the middle of the battle sounds like a horrible idea to me.

While I can't really come up with anything that completely address the problem I'm against any bandaid to "reduce unfairness", we should aim for a new nullifier concept that completely undistinguishes the rate of fire of a weapon from another in terms of effectiveness of dealing with the bubble, as nullifiers shouldn't punish any kind of weapon choice in any extent.

(especially weapons that reward precise shooting like snipers and bows as they are "more active" gameplay that DE seems to be seeking)

Btw i'm MR13 but the forum hates me.

I think it would actually be okay - the weapons this would affect, the low ROF high damage-per-shot weapons, should really facilitate that sort of play anyway. Picking your targets, taking the shot to take them down, and then moving on. It'd be better than encouraging the same sort of "spray and pray like any other automatic weapon" that we currently have for pretty much every weapon out there.

PS: Forum MR is determined by post count, not in-game MR.

8 hours ago, I3jionaa said:

Nullifiers - let the bubble scale, in starchart it becomes trash mob, bubble 1-3 shooted. Problem solved 90% of people happy. Now for real do not do that :D Race to extraction allready pretty big deal for majority of the missions. Currently bubble scale is mainly fire rate. Make it hp scale based - snipers/bows gonna be happy, machineguns will be left over. Make it clip size based - if weapon clip size <=10 then 2 head shoots kill nullifier even if the bubble has not shrinked, melee and guys who cant score head shots would be left over. To please everyone is very difficult task.

Draco style - stop promoting efficient groups where watching is rewarded ! Cut shared affinity for those who watch to 1/10. How ? Use a killing blow solution - u kill u get all the sweets! (Affinity increase definitely would be needed for such deeds). Now u need to compete for kills and no more watching. Engaging enough !? But my rank 0 weapon cant kill anything at berehynia! There are other planets, play other nodes. But i am support frame i cant kill enemies with my abilities. Kill with ur weapons, u doing the job u get partly affinity for warframe/weapons vice versa. Wow it's real hard to level up support frame now. Well u gotta sacrifice for community who hates cheese.! We can't please everyone.

Cool idea about energies, it partly aims to impact CC meta if i got that correctly, but thats very fragile line between success and disaster.

Once again, nullifiers can't be fixed until players are also fixed. Broken players = broken enemies, simple as that.

The whole point of this thread is to encourage players to change through positive reinforcement instead of punishment. Applying more of the same ineffective lashing that DE has been dishing out over the past year or so in addition to fostering conflict between teammates in a supposedly co-op game doesn't strike me as a good idea.

Lastly, any extensive change walks the line between success and disaster. Thankfully, development is ongoing. That means disasters can be fixed, and it's an eventual win-win situation either way. Successes improve the game, disasters (hopefully) help the devs learn from mistakes, and eventually become successes.

[Angrados]

Congrats, you've officially piqued my interest.

 

As a player that's logged over 800 hours now in Warframe, I've found myself slowly drifting away from the game. The reduction of endless is part of it- it now doesn't have much meaning, and frankly even the cheesing was kind of fun in endless, as it was more about playing with others while cutting through hordes of enemies than it was min/max camping shenaniganry. I played a lot of random matches that way, and it was totally worth it. I actually miss being able to do that and getting rewarded for it.

 

However, that isn't to say that I don't acknowledge the existing problem. The game has grown dry for a variety of reasons, and I think that this proposal has some merit. The whole dual energy-system thing is a little... well, abstruse for my understanding, but I can sort of understand where you're coming from. Not sure if I'm a huge fan of it yet- frankly, I need to mull it over for a while- but it's definitely given me something to think about. Props to you for making this thread and being willing to pitch for your own ideas- and so eloquently, as well. Reading through nine pages worth of posts is normally a bother, but it definitely helped me understand the different facets of the suggestion. I'll be interested to see where this goes.

To contribute briefly, I think that the Nullifiers do need to be looked at, in all the facets you've described in your posts. Differentiation in nullifier function, as well as shield mechanics are all important to think about, and I think DE would be wise to give this thread a once over and their current policy about it some thought. Will likely post more tomorrow when I get some time- for now, props!

[--Q--uaint]

On 9/15/2016 at 8:34 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

part of what the community really dislikes about them is that they offer up an effective defiance of Tenno powers...

Eh. I dunno that I agree with that. What I really dislike about them is that a) they are overly strong against almost all the weapons I like and b) your Warframe basically doesn't matter at all unless you can self-buff to survive and just shoot down the bubble.

On 9/15/2016 at 8:34 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

so making it such that the Corpus can counter our weaker abilities but still can't hold a candle to our truly strong powers should be fairly satisfying

I would argue the opposite. Making them unable to counter our strongest powers means we can just cheese by them without noticing.
If I'm Ember running WoF I'm not even gonna notice them until level ~30-40.
If I'm using Stomp or Soundquake as an AoE kill, I'm not gonna notice them.

Making them counter our "strongest" powers so we have to notice them is why they're there.

Let's look at an example. Say I'm running Disarm Loki:
VS current Nullies, I just have to pop the bubble as fast as I can and hope the guns don't wreck me before I can. If my gun is good for that, then Inviz should last long enough to keep me alive... against a few. The way they spawn at higher levels, you may as well give up on playing Disarm Loki since you're gonna have to be invis all the time anyhow.
VS flux nullies, I just disarm them and they're just another trash mob
VS saturated nullies, I now have to deal with guns... but my Invisibility is completely uninhibited so I can deal with the nully quickly and efficiently if I'm paying attention.

On 9/15/2016 at 8:34 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

that the system would put enough of a clamp on saturated casts that nullifiers shouldn't be necessary to mitigate them.

Unless you utterly overhaul everything related to energy gain (or just make them all nigh worthless by making them give flux), you're not gonna keep veteran players from spamming if they're determined to.

On 9/16/2016 at 4:44 AM, ._Vendetta_. said:

Sorry but adding that people would have to time their shots so that they can destroy the bubble with fewer shots in the middle of the battle sounds like a horrible idea to me.

The speed that nullifier bubbles shrink means lower RoF weapons aren't particularly punished by this. If I'm using a bow, my second shot will probably hit after the bubble has already shrunk by 40% and I can just wait for the bubble to pop before I throw out the third. Snipers are the same way, to a large extent.

I have zero problems with punishing people for just spray'n'praying.

On 9/16/2016 at 4:44 AM, ._Vendetta_. said:

we should aim for a new nullifier concept that completely undistinguishes the rate of fire of a weapon from another in terms of effectiveness of dealing with the bubble, as nullifiers shouldn't punish any kind of weapon choice in any extent.

This actually does that, to a large extent. The only weapons that are punished here are high RoF weapons, and those already have an advantage in other areas since the game is about murdering hordes.

19 hours ago, Angrados said:

As a player that's logged over 800 hours now in Warframe

'Hoy, small fry!