Ivara's Sleep Arrows and Stealth Streak Inconsistency

[Bipp]

Title.

Why do enemies that have been put to sleep WHILE UNALERTED have some hidden chance to break your stealth streak if you attempt to kill them?

It doesn't happen all the time. Just sometimes. What's wrong with this inconsistency?

Say I have a group of enemies and I attract them all in one cluster with a Sound arrow. I then put the to sleep with a sleep arrow. At no point before this were the enemies alerted; they all approach the sound origin with no care in the world. I kill an enemy with a stealth finisher and my stealth streak stays at +500%. I kill another one and my streak ends. I kill another and he's also 'alerted' or at least not giving any increased exp numbers. 

Then the sleep duration expires and all the others are still unalerted.

What the heck is going on

[Komodo_Saurian]

I was also unpleasantly surprised that sleep arrows don't work with the stealth multiplier.

But I reckon they count as an attack, alerting them.

[Bipp]

1 minute ago, Komodo_Saurian said:

I was also unpleasantly surprised that sleep arrows don't work with the stealth multiplier.

But I reckon they count as an attack, alerting them.

If they did then they'd all wake up alerted and looking for me which never happens unless they're already alerted. 

It also doesn't explain why enemies sometimes raise my stealth streak upon being killed and why they often don't.

[Komodo_Saurian]

Yep.

Therefore only use prowl until it's fixed. If ever.

[Bipp]

Just now, Komodo_Saurian said:

Yep.

Therefore only use prowl until it's fixed. If ever.

If ever. Damn right. I've noticed this issue since Ivara's release which was like a year or two ago and have been meaning to make a thread on since no one else apparently has.

[Komodo_Saurian]

1 minute ago, Keybopsef said:

If ever. Damn right. I've noticed this issue since Ivara's release which was like a year or two ago and have been meaning to make a thread on since no one else apparently has.

Eh... It could be argued that a sleep arrow is for combat use while the noise arrow is for stealth. Which is what I've been using during old void interception. Level 9999 enemies, that's where you really needed that covert lethality, bleh.

[Glitch_Kitten]

if you were killing them with finishers, then that'd explain it, the finisher animations are flashy and as such, your body ends up flailing around like a ragdoll and potentially hitting another enemy, as such, the contact with them will cause them to become alert (despite being asleep)

[Bipp]

7 minutes ago, Glitch_Kitten said:

if you were killing them with finishers, then that'd explain it, the finisher animations are flashy and as such, your body ends up flailing around like a ragdoll and potentially hitting another enemy, as such, the contact with them will cause them to become alert (despite being asleep)

Right. I'll have to quickly test this out. 

EDIT: Bumped into a scorpion I put to sleep. Finished her off and my stealth streak did not break. Will test with sound arrows now.

EDIT2: Repeated the same thing but on about 10 enemies that have been lured with sound arrows. Not touching them before finishing resulted in no stealth bonus while asleep. Same thing happened when touching them although when the kill occurred right as they were waking up I gained bonus exp as normal. 

Seems the problem lies in Sound Arrows.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Keybopsef

[Glitch_Kitten]

4 minutes ago, Keybopsef said:

Right. I'll have to quickly test this out. 

EDIT: Bumped into a scorpion I put to sleep. Finished her off and my stealth streak did not break. Will test with sound arrows now.

it always does it for me, but usually when im in stealth im loki with a greatsword (because im too lazy to change weapons), which lunges me forward during the finisher animation

[Bipp]

Just now, Glitch_Kitten said:

it always does it for me, but usually when im in stealth im loki with a greatsword (because im too lazy to change weapons), which lunges me forward during the finisher animation

I was using the Telos Boltace. The frontal finisher has very little movement which could make me bump into any other enemies. Still no stealth bonus though : /

[Glitch_Kitten]

Just now, Keybopsef said:

I was using the Telos Boltace. The frontal finisher has very little movement which could make me bump into any other enemies. Still no stealth bonus though : /

weird, oh well, inconsistency is a thing in warframe and it'll remain to be, i can test it for you if you'd like a second bit of data, just tell me exactly what you're doing and ill hop into the simulacrom 

[Gelkor]

1 hour ago, Keybopsef said:

Title.

Why do enemies that have been put to sleep WHILE UNALERTED have some hidden chance to break your stealth streak if you attempt to kill them?

It doesn't happen all the time. Just sometimes. What's wrong with this inconsistency?

Say I have a group of enemies and I attract them all in one cluster with a Sound arrow. I then put the to sleep with a sleep arrow. At no point before this were the enemies alerted; they all approach the sound origin with no care in the world. I kill an enemy with a stealth finisher and my stealth streak stays at +500%. I kill another one and my streak ends. I kill another and he's also 'alerted' or at least not giving any increased exp numbers. 

Then the sleep duration expires and all the others are still unalerted.

What the heck is going on

That's not from sleep arrow, that's from sound arrow, I've noticed if you use sound arrow too close to some enemies, the closest one to it becomes alerted while the rest wander over unalerted. I only ever use sound arrow clumping when I'm leveling explosive weapons.

Also, the first 5 seconds of every new tile you walk in to the enemies will break your stealth streak.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Gelkor

[Bipp]

Just now, Glitch_Kitten said:

weird, oh well, inconsistency is a thing in warframe and it'll remain to be, i can test it for you if you'd like a second bit of data, just tell me exactly what you're doing and ill hop into the simulacrom 

Testing to see what exactly causes the stealth streak to break when using Sleep Arrows. 

So far it seems that it's luring enemies with Sound Arrows and putting them to sleep that ends up breaking the stealth streak.

Since enemies always spawn in alerted in the simulacrum you'll have to test in a normal mission.

[Glitch_Kitten]

1 minute ago, Keybopsef said:

Testing to see what exactly causes the stealth streak to break when using Sleep Arrows. 

So far it seems that it's luring enemies with Sound Arrows and putting them to sleep that ends up breaking the stealth streak.

Since enemies always spawn in alerted in the simulacrum you'll have to test in a normal mission.

alright, what @Gelkor said above sounds plausible, also

[Bipp]

1 minute ago, Gelkor said:

That's not from sleep arrow, that's from sound arrow, I've noticed if you use sound arrow too close to some enemies, the closest one to it becomes alerted while the rest wander over unalerted. I only ever use sound arrow clumping when I'm leveling explosive weapons.

Also, the first 5 seconds of every new tile you walk in to the enemies will break your stealth streak.

I know about the 5 seconds and I can assure you that none of the enemies I've lured had just spawned in.

As for the sound arrow, I have a max range build that attracts enemies from something like 40-50m away so it definitely isn't one guy being alerted. Otherwise they'd all be alerted.

[Gelkor]

3 minutes ago, Keybopsef said:

I know about the 5 seconds and I can assure you that none of the enemies I've lured had just spawned in.

As for the sound arrow, I have a max range build that attracts enemies from something like 40-50m away so it definitely isn't one guy being alerted. Otherwise they'd all be alerted.

Well, it's any enemy that's relatively close to where the sound arrow lands, it might be a visual thing.

[Bipp]

I just have no idea what the hell is going on but I'm 100% certain it's Sound Arrows that are causing problems.

[Gelkor]

1 minute ago, Keybopsef said:

I just have no idea what the hell is going on but I'm 100% certain it's Sound Arrows that are causing problems.

Hence why I don't use them to stealth farm. XD

Only good for explosive weps imo, you'll get one or two with no bonus affinity but you'll still get a bunch at 500%

[Bipp]

Just now, Gelkor said:

Hence why I don't use them to stealth farm. XD

Only good for explosive weps imo, you'll get one or two with no bonus affinity but you'll still get a bunch at 500%

Yeah. 

Until then I guess I'm just gonna be biding my time until the time is right.

[Inarticulate]

Noise Arrow doesn't alert enemies.

Back before the change to unalerted enemy spawning in Deception missions, I did all of my affinity and Focus farming in stealth Deception missions on Sedna (Charybdis) and Exterminate on Mercury (Pantheon). I found that there were two enemy types that consistently broke my stealth combo even when asleep: Grineer Seekers and Commanders.

After a lot of testing, both of these enemies can become alerted while asleep as if they were still awake. Bumping into one or killing an enemy close by or within line of sight in front of the Seeker or Commander will alert it, even if it is asleep. Additionally, stealth finisher animations, which maintain your stealth combo on an awake Seeker or Commander, can count as bumping into it when it is asleep, breaking your combo.

Seekers and Commanders an also become alerted when taking damage while asleep, but this behavior is less consistent. Being hit by the discharge of a destroyed Arc Trap is certain to alert them, though. The Arc Trap attack when you step too close to one also makes a noise, which will alert sleeping Seekers and Commanders as well as all nearby awake enemies.

Basically, when attempting to maintain a stealth combo against Grineer:

• Wait 5 seconds before killing an enemy after entering a new tile unless you are certain the enemy spawned more than 5 seconds ago. Stacking Enemy Radar and Animal Instinct on Ivara helps a lot.
• Wait 5 seconds before killing newly spawned Drahks and Hyekkas.
• Watch for Seekers and Commanders. If you have to kill an enemy that is near a Seeker or Commander, make sure that the Seeker or Commander is killed first or simultaneously.
• If a Seeker or Commander is standing near an Arc Trap, wait for it to walk out of range before destroying the Arc Trap, or kill the Seeker or Commander first.
• Make sure whatever attack you are using to kill a Seeker or Commander will kill it in a single hit.

When in doubt, check the arrows on the mini-map. If an enemy appears as an arrow with a dot in the middle (red arrow outline with transparent inside border with a spot of red in the middle), the enemy is alerted and will break your stealth combo. Put it to sleep, and wait for the sleep to wear off before killing it (you'll see the spot of red disappear when the enemy wakes up).

Edited October 7, 2016 by Inarticulate

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

14 hours ago, Keybopsef said:

Title.

Why do enemies that have been put to sleep WHILE UNALERTED have some hidden chance to break your stealth streak if you attempt to kill them?

It doesn't happen all the time. Just sometimes. What's wrong with this inconsistency?

Say I have a group of enemies and I attract them all in one cluster with a Sound arrow. I then put the to sleep with a sleep arrow. At no point before this were the enemies alerted; they all approach the sound origin with no care in the world. I kill an enemy with a stealth finisher and my stealth streak stays at +500%. I kill another one and my streak ends. I kill another and he's also 'alerted' or at least not giving any increased exp numbers. 

Then the sleep duration expires and all the others are still unalerted.

What the heck is going on

Sleep arrows work for the stealth multiplier just fine. One of two things is hapoening, either the issue your having is as a result of the sound arrow. When enemies are attracted to it, they come into an alerted state which disolves after the duration of that arrow. If enemies are alerted prior to you using sleep arrow, when the duration of your sleep arrow ends, they instantly become unalerted. Or there are certain enemy types (such as grineer seekers) become alerted instantly when hit by the sleep arrow if previously unalerted, and when they wake up, they wake alerted as well.

[Rolunde]

13 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

/snip/

+1 to you for this, and good hunting! ;-)

[OvisCaedo]

While I can believe that seekers and commanders are glitchy, I've had this problem occur with them completely absent. I've similarly found that the problem seems to be with noise arrows into sleep arrows, even though noise arrows do not appear to alert enemies in any way whatsoever except for the stealth combo multiplier just dropping.

[Racter]

Enemies that have been alive less than five seconds will break your stealth multiplier when killed, regardless of alert status. Additionally, bumping into an enemy, sometimes even while they are slept, will break your stealth multiplier. Noise arrow will also occasionally result in breaking your stealth multiplier, I have not bothered working out why, just quit using it.

My solution to this (while focus farming) is just using Artemis Bow to kill them all at once from outside of error range. Saves a lens, too.

[Bipp]

2 hours ago, Racter said:

Additionally, bumping into an enemy, sometimes even while they are slept, will break your stealth multiplier. Noise arrow will also occasionally result in breaking your stealth multiplier, I have not bothered working out why, just quit using it.

This is exactly the problem. This inconsistency with seemingly no rule, rhyme or reason. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't so I have no idea how it's really supposed to all work out. There's no pattern for anyone to really learn and get around.

3 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

While I can believe that seekers and commanders are glitchy, I've had this problem occur with them completely absent. I've similarly found that the problem seems to be with noise arrows into sleep arrows, even though noise arrows do not appear to alert enemies in any way whatsoever except for the stealth combo multiplier just dropping.

Exactly.

17 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

Noise Arrow doesn't alert enemies.

Back before the change to unalerted enemy spawning in Deception missions, I did all of my affinity and Focus farming in stealth Deception missions on Sedna (Charybdis) and Exterminate on Mercury (Pantheon). I found that there were two enemy types that consistently broke my stealth combo even when asleep: Grineer Seekers and Commanders.

After a lot of testing, both of these enemies can become alerted while asleep as if they were still awake. Bumping into one or killing an enemy close by or within line of sight in front of the Seeker or Commander will alert it, even if it is asleep. Additionally, stealth finisher animations, which maintain your stealth combo on an awake Seeker or Commander, can count as bumping into it when it is asleep, breaking your combo.

Seekers and Commanders an also become alerted when taking damage while asleep, but this behavior is less consistent. Being hit by the discharge of a destroyed Arc Trap is certain to alert them, though. The Arc Trap attack when you step too close to one also makes a noise, which will alert sleeping Seekers and Commanders as well as all nearby awake enemies.

Basically, when attempting to maintain a stealth combo against Grineer:

• Wait 5 seconds before killing an enemy after entering a new tile unless you are certain the enemy spawned more than 5 seconds ago. Stacking Enemy Radar and Animal Instinct on Ivara helps a lot.
• Wait 5 seconds before killing newly spawned Drahks and Hyekkas.
• Watch for Seekers and Commanders. If you have to kill an enemy that is near a Seeker or Commander, make sure that the Seeker or Commander is killed first or simultaneously.
• If a Seeker or Commander is standing near an Arc Trap, wait for it to walk out of range before destroying the Arc Trap, or kill the Seeker or Commander first.
• Make sure whatever attack you are using to kill a Seeker or Commander will kill it in a single hit.

When in doubt, check the arrows on the mini-map. If an enemy appears as an arrow with a dot in the middle (red arrow outline with transparent inside border with a spot of red in the middle), the enemy is alerted and will break your stealth combo. Put it to sleep, and wait for the sleep to wear off before killing it (you'll see the spot of red disappear when the enemy wakes up).

I've had my stealth streaks broken by nearly every other enemy as well, not just Seekers and Commanders. And for seemingly no reason. I know how to perform stealth just fine but this flipping inconsistency is driving me nuts. 

7 hours ago, (PS4)Knuckles2184 said:

Sleep arrows work for the stealth multiplier just fine. One of two things is hapoening, either the issue your having is as a result of the sound arrow. When enemies are attracted to it, they come into an alerted state which disolves after the duration of that arrow. If enemies are alerted prior to you using sleep arrow, when the duration of your sleep arrow ends, they instantly become unalerted. Or there are certain enemy types (such as grineer seekers) become alerted instantly when hit by the sleep arrow if previously unalerted, and when they wake up, they wake alerted as well.

As stated, yes. I found out the issue lies with sound arrows (even though it doesn't always cause issues). As for them being attracted to the sound arrow alerted, explain why they still give ~200 standing for stealth scanning them with a synthesis scanner? 

This is the inconsistency I'm talking about.