Make Conclave More Rewarding

Nazrethim · October 18, 2016

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

No. It means Trials should be reworked to exclude punishment-based cooperation so that they're less toxic, and the mode should be balanced for four players with unique scaling mechanics for up to eight players.

My point still stands: Current Trial enviroment is a sh*tshow way more toxic and worse that what Conclave enviroment was, is or ever will.

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The difference between Archwing and Conclave being that Archwing could fairly easily be reworked into something that contributes to the PvE experience and is enjoyable for most players whereas Conclave will always be segregated by a fundamental difference in concept.

AW is barely more popular than Conclave, and despite massive improvements that stance by the majority of the community hasn't changed a bit. I think players should be encouraged to try all aspects of the game, otherwise why run anything other than Exterminate?

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Trials are also intended to be part of the standard PvE player progression, whereas Conclave is still just a spin-off. I don't see a problem with sticking unique PvE rewards behind a PvE mode. Sure, the mode is crap and needs a lot of help, but that's another story entirely.

I think players should be encouraged to experiment all the available content the game has to offer, regular PvE, AW, Conclave, Trials, all that is part of the game and shouldn't be excluded because some people can't stand the notion of the "work for it or trade for it".

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Which is why I don't play public for the most part. And therein lies the rub: I don't have to play publicly in PvE, whereas if I want the rewards in Conclave I need other people and playing with a small group of friends (i.e. 2-3 other people) won't really cut it.

I also play Solo most of the time, but this is a multiplayer game, and I would like to play with others from time to time. So far I've found mostly toxicity and selfish a-holes in PvE with the rare good squad to give me hope, whereas in Conclave most people I run into are nice with the ocassional toxic player being an odd wierd encounter.

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Sure, but this thread is about adding additional rewards. Allow me to rephrase: No rewards with an equivalent impact on the PvE side of the game that can only or even primarily be acquired through Conclave. If you want weapons through conclave, fine. But the BPs should be available as PvE drops/on the market.

But I did mention two totally non-conclave related ways to get them.

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Obviously, we're looking for different things out of Warframe. Warframe is still primarily a PvE game, so I don't think infringing on PvE loot is a good idea.

But it wouldn't really impact on PvE, maybe shake a bit (that is, if at all) the in game economy, but that's about it.

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I disagree. Conclave is a Syndicate, yes, but it's an entirely different beast from Simaris or The Six. With any of the PvE syndicates, you can easily make progress by just playing the PvE game. With Conclave, you can only earn standing by playing Conclave. I don't think you can deny that the mode is niche and polarizing, which is why I am going to continue to be adamant that all of its non-cosmetic, non-conclave-specific rewards should be redundantly available.

I do know it's niche and polarizing, but it's here and it's here to stay, IF DE makes a Conclave weapon and this can be obtained trough PvE without ever rising Conclave standing then they should make ALL Synd weapons drops from non-syndicate sources too. Reward Consistency. That's why I use both Simaris and The Six as baseline. Also, Simaris, Conclave and The Six have their own gimmicks: Simaris has scanning and tracking a special target without killing it (in a horde shooter/ninja game where you are encouraged to kill anything that moves) Conclave has PvP (justified in-universe by being a special training mode to "git gud" to face the sentients or whatever) and The Six have that ally/enemy system where you have to work for one and get hated by the other and requires a special Sigil to even work (which is a stab in fashionframe).

Again, I wouldn't mind a PvE way to acquire Conclave standing, as long as it's just as skill-reliant as proper PvP, which is not going to happen in a game where Miramulor and Tonkor exist (unless they use Conclave loadouts, which will cause outrage anyway).

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I also don't support relying primarily on trade for backup access to Conclave rewards because the trade system is so user-unfriendly. I don't consider fishing on the trade channel or in the bazaar for potentially hours on end a good use of player time.

Well, that could serve as a "bandaid" until DE implements proper Specter AI that fights just as well (and unpredictably) as we do. Also, people often trade for Primes, Mods and Synd weapons. You can also ask a friend who likes Conclave if he/she can get the weapon for you. And it wouldn't really be a hard search, a Conclave weapon wouldn't be harder to obtain from trade than any other Synd weapon.

8 hours ago, Heckzu said:

What if instead of having actual dual Nikanas, we had a Dual Nikana Skin usable on all dual swords? That way there's no Conclave-only weapon so the PVErs have no legitimate reason to complain while we get to show off dual nikanas and make them jealous?

Or a wakizashi attachment for Nikanas. Though I think we need a Dual Nikana class with it's own stance. And honestly I'm sick of people who hate Conclave and aren't willing to trade. I hate new loka and doing trials, and I wasn't willing to soldier on trough the grind to get sancti weapons and arcanes (just like people who aren't willing to soldier on trough conclave) so I traded for the tigris and arcanes (I'm still missing the magistar and castanas). If they don't want to do Conclave they would have the Trade option, they can grind PvE as usual and then exchange some PvE good for whatever they want from the Conclave synd. And tell me, do you think it makes sense the idea to listen to people who hate a mode if said mode should have rewards or not? That's like asking a member of the Islamic State if he would be ok with Yazidi getting their own state&territory. Sorry if that last comment results offensive to anyone.

7 hours ago, Irorone said:

Comparing "balance" between two entirely different modes of play each with, make no mistake, their own set of flaws is literally comparing apples to oranges and saying that one is perfect in comparison to the other.

But you can't deny he has a point right there. Most Warframes and Weapons are fairly balanced in Conclave, while in PvE the balance has been murdered by Corrupted mods, Tonkor, Trinity and Miramulor long ago.

-dicht.ThanksFrost- · October 18, 2016

On 16/10/2016 at 0:05 PM, Witchydragon said:

Too many people already cheese the game by giving each other free kills to get a ton of standing, and if more cosmetic/pve usable rewards get put into Teshin's reward pool then there will just be more people who come in and farm dailies and quit/force other people to not play the game.

By adding these in, people who already hate pvp and talk about it like it was made by the devil will come in, farm standing, and tell other people to not play the game normally and throw fits when someone does. Conclave can become more rewarding when more players start playing it to play Conclave. This means bringing in new players or players that have never tried pvp, and DE has to actually promote the idea that the game should be played instead of farmed.

So make the conclave weapon skins and mods plat purchasable. So the people who don't want to play don't play. And the people who actually like the game can keep playing for fun.

Adding content is not going to make people want to play conclave it's going to make more people hate conclave but want to farm skins and thus make them want to farm challenges like what most do when new weapons come out and then they hate conclave more because they are forced to play something they don't like.

If people don't like to play it they will farm it. DE can't tell people to play something that most people don't like. DE is going to promote something when it's actually good. And the numbers show otherwise.

Also @Nazrethim trial climate is not toxic. Step one foot into RSB or Regular warframe discord. Don't judge communities that you don't know about. To say trial climate is toxic and more toxic that Conclave is completely false.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

Irorone · October 18, 2016

Conclave does need to be a rewarding experience because so far here are the measures I've seen the opposite.

High damage single shot weapons with high accuracy, especially vectis prime, pretty much dominate firearm choice because why stay on target for a time when you can two shot.

Extremely limited frame preferences, either tanks or nuke casters, cuz I tried ivara in conclave and yeah that ended SPECTACULARLY badly due to having extremely low effective health with abilities that largely don't work in conclave i.e. prowl depending on energy color choice actually makes you more visible than without.

Virtually nobody willing to play anything except either deathmatch (annihilation) or I assume lunaro since from what I remember you can't use frame powers or weapons in that. The largest game I found yesterday was five out of six players in said annihilation mode, more often than not closer to 3/4 out of six. Managed to get into a CTF that had only three other people and they were trying to do something completely different since that game ended 1-0 because I capped a cephalon before I noticed that they were trying to do something else (all three of the other players had matching color schemes so either a graphical glitch or was a clan training session on conclave basics.

Even with the PAGES of rewards offered by conclave (including relic packs) I couldn't even be bothered to push further than rank 3 in conclave syndicate standing because, at a fundamental level, it's just not fun for me.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Irorone

Nazrethim · October 18, 2016

2 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So make the conclave weapon skins and mods plat purchasable. So the people who don't want to play don't play. And the people who actually like the game can keep playing for fun.

I can get behind that if it opens for a Conclave Standing weapon (hopefully Dual Nikanas) with the Platinum option for those who don't want to work for it (Like Simaris' Heliocolor & Simulor). What else? a Platinum purchased Conclave Stance pack or making them transmutable or placing them on rathuum with a rare-as-a-unicorn-fart chance and then allow them in PvE missions as well?

2 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Also @Nazrethim trial climate is not toxic. Step one foot into RSB or Regular warframe discord. Don't judge communities that you don't know about. To say trial climate is toxic and more toxic that Conclave is completely false.

Very well, point taken. I've run only pugs, which means yeah I got paired with sh*t people who can't cooperate at all.

DiabolusUrsus · October 19, 2016

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

My point still stands: Current Trial enviroment is a sh*tshow way more toxic and worse that what Conclave enviroment was, is or ever will.

And yet my point still stands about it being an intended part of the normal PvE progression. Thus, it's kinda apples and oranges with Conclave.

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

AW is barely more popular than Conclave, and despite massive improvements that stance by the majority of the community hasn't changed a bit. I think players should be encouraged to try all aspects of the game, otherwise why run anything other than Exterminate?

AW hasn't gotten any meaningful reworks/upgrades. It's gotten new weapons. It's gotten new modes. It's had some tweaks to enemies. It's still mostly the same as when it released except for the movement system. While the movement system is interesting, it has nothing to do with the actual completion of mission objectives and is pretty much pointless on half of its maps.

I agree that players should be encouraged to play all aspects of the game - through compelling and entertaining gameplay, not simply rewards for playing.

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I think players should be encouraged to experiment all the available content the game has to offer, regular PvE, AW, Conclave, Trials, all that is part of the game and shouldn't be excluded because some people can't stand the notion of the "work for it or trade for it".

See the point above, and keep in mind that I never said Conclave shouldn't get any attention or good rewards. It just shouldn't be a very high priority at the moment because the PvE side of things - the side of things that matters most to the majority of players - still needs tons of work. Thus, I don't think adding new weapons or other content that would be equally beneficial to PvE to Conclave would be a worthwhile thing to do.

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I also play Solo most of the time, but this is a multiplayer game, and I would like to play with others from time to time. So far I've found mostly toxicity and selfish a-holes in PvE with the rare good squad to give me hope, whereas in Conclave most people I run into are nice with the ocassional toxic player being an odd wierd encounter.

Again, that's why I typically try to stay out of public. In PvE you can get together a group of like-minded friends and play as you like - that's what I'm stuck doing most of the time - whereas in Conclave you have to gather enough people to fill the lobby and hope you get matched together if you want the rewards.

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

But I did mention two totally non-conclave related ways to get them.

What I meant to rephrase was the initial comment of mine that started this particular conversation. As long as rewards that impact PvE in a significant way (e.g., unique/new weapons) are not ONLY accessible via Conclave or trading, I'm fine with them being added to the reward pool. I also have no problem with Conclave-specific rewards that you have to trade for if you don't play, but I will NOT support trading as a "non-Conclave" method of getting the aforementioned specific rewards.

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

But it wouldn't really impact on PvE, maybe shake a bit (that is, if at all) the in game economy, but that's about it.

Pretty sure new/unique weapons and similar items would impact the PvE game pretty heavily.

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I do know it's niche and polarizing, but it's here and it's here to stay, IF DE makes a Conclave weapon and this can be obtained trough PvE without ever rising Conclave standing then they should make ALL Synd weapons drops from non-syndicate sources too. Reward Consistency. That's why I use both Simaris and The Six as baseline. Also, Simaris, Conclave and The Six have their own gimmicks: Simaris has scanning and tracking a special target without killing it (in a horde shooter/ninja game where you are encouraged to kill anything that moves) Conclave has PvP (justified in-universe by being a special training mode to "git gud" to face the sentients or whatever) and The Six have that ally/enemy system where you have to work for one and get hated by the other and requires a special Sigil to even work (which is a stab in fashionframe).

And I'm not saying otherwise. However... you know as well as I do that reward consistency isn't really a thing in Warframe. I have my gripes with Simaris, but that Syndicate was primarily created for the lore, not the rewards. Sure, the rewards have taken the spotlight for lack of new lore material, but that really should be changed. Additionally, you don't actually have to do anything for Simaris to still get standing if you run missions with a buddy going after the targets. All you have to do is be in affinity-range to get the bonus standing.

The Six don't really change things up because even their daily missions (which you can do if you don't want to use the Sigils, unless they went and changed that) are practically identical to standard missions. And if you really don't want to trade for the rewards you can pull a complete face-heel turn and grind up your enemy factions. IIRC you don't have to re-pay the unique item tolls to rank up if you decide to return to your original factions later.

Are these alternate methods that slow and unwieldy? Yes... but they're possible. You don't really have anything comparable for Conclave.

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Again, I wouldn't mind a PvE way to acquire Conclave standing, as long as it's just as skill-reliant as proper PvP, which is not going to happen in a game where Miramulor and Tonkor exist (unless they use Conclave loadouts, which will cause outrage anyway).

I would love a more balanced Warframe, too. I wouldn't even mind using Conclave loadouts in a PvE mode to get Conclave standing. Even if the choice is relatively unpalatable, I'll still take the choice over no choice.

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Well, that could serve as a "bandaid" until DE implements proper Specter AI that fights just as well (and unpredictably) as we do. Also, people often trade for Primes, Mods and Synd weapons. You can also ask a friend who likes Conclave if he/she can get the weapon for you. And it wouldn't really be a hard search, a Conclave weapon wouldn't be harder to obtain from trade than any other Synd weapon.

I would like to avoid Band-Aid solutions wherever possible... and as I said earlier there's no good reason to add unique weapon rewards to Conclave. Unless, of course, it's some sort of prestige PvP-only weapon. Why would you play PvP to get a PvE weapon? That doesn't make sense.

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

And tell me, do you think it makes sense the idea to listen to people who hate a mode if said mode should have rewards or not? That's like asking a member of the Islamic State if he would be ok with Yazidi getting their own state&territory. Sorry if that last comment results offensive to anyone.

It makes more sense than only listening to people who like the mode. If you listen only to positive feedback or only to negative feedback, you're going to end up with a very ugly end-product. That's the benefit of everyone getting a say, which is one thing I'd like to think sets us apart from powers like the Islamic State. There's also the teensy-weensy difference in circumstance that is we're all part of the same community, not some oppressed and enslaved minority faction.

I understand that you're probably sensitive about people disliking Conclave because it's important to you, but can we please not try to pretend that everything would be all well and good if we could all just agree to try playing it?

Conclave has a lot of issues with it that make it a highly unpredictable experience for players who aren't already of a compatible disposition, so let's try to fix those issues instead of shoehorning more players into the mode with rewards.

Edited October 19, 2016 by DiabolusUrsus
Typos and train-of-thought derails fixed.

Nazrethim · October 19, 2016

14 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

See the point above, and keep in mind that I never said Conclave shouldn't get any attention or good rewards. It just shouldn't be a very high priority at the moment because the PvE side of things - the side of things that matters most to the majority of players - still needs tons of work. Thus, I don't think adding new weapons or other content that would be equally beneficial to PvE to Conclave would be a worthwhile thing to do.

Fine, not adding Conclave specific weapons. What about allowing in PvE the use of Conclave mods, most of them are niche and wouldn't really fit into builds and Stances may as well be considered cosmetic since without super high multipliers they are statistically inferior (only exception being Rending Wind Conclave Machete stance, but only because Sundering Weave s*cks)

14 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I understand that you're probably sensitive about people disliking Conclave because it's important to you

Not really, I don't give a rat's arse if DE decides to put Conclave rewards on PvE droptables, but I don't think Syndicate standing rewards should be drops from regular grunts or rare enemies, and should only be available at the Syndicate that offers them. Work for it or Trade for it.

I just hate two types of crowd: the "nerf it!" crowd (because everytime DE listens to them sh*t hits the fan) and the "I don't like the mission/mode so it should drop from grunts at draco or whatever!" crowd (which refuses any logical argument on the grounds they don't like whatever mission, or in this case, gamemode they don't like)

(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta · October 19, 2016

On 10/16/2016 at 2:32 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. No gameplay-impacting rewards from Conclave.

2. Cross-over mods sound nice, PROVIDED they have PvE sources too.

3. Skins... sure, go for it.

It's nice that we have conclave for the people who appreciate it and all, but it has detracted enough from PvE IMO.

I disagree horribly.

Some people do not possess the necessary skills to do the raids yet we don't see the developers lowering their standards.

Pvp honestly only takes practice. I've been at it now for a while and yes I'd like to some some incentives for people to actually try it. I want more player base. I'm tired of facing the same people over and over.

"Detracted from pve."

Bro are you serious?

It's the opposite. People have cried about pvp when it has NOTHING to do with pve. Most players who are mr22 haven't even set foot in a single conclave match. You don't have to. Yet still they try to get the developers to remove pvp. Why?

You guys that complain about pvp need to stop being selfish. We pvp guys for the most part don't try to get aspects of pve removed.

Pve has already poisoned conclave with the addition of that failure known as lunaro. It was cool for a minute then crashed and burned.

Pve has poisoned our solar rails which were our pvp equivalent of the raids.

The main problems with the community that is against pvp are as follows:

1. They walk into a match and get skunked. Instantly cry and say pvp is stupid. (Pile of horse S**t)

2. They refuse to ask for help. (What is good? What do you recommend?)

3. People hear what others say and they just go with it instead of actually finding out.

In absolutely everything in this world you need to ask questions of those who have done it more if you want to learn.

Electricians, fishermen, loggers, and Military members. You have to ask the vets who have done it to be the best and get the tricks of the trade that were passed to them. When u understand the game you can then create new tricks. The same thing applies to Warframe PVP.

I learned from Caduceus Fawks Elite, one of the best clans in console pvp.

I asked questions. Before that I didn't set foot in conclave. I partook in solar rails but did crappie against actual players. Now because I asked questions and was willing to learn im easily one of the best in console pvp I even defeated CFEs founder Vulari in a 1v1.

Ask for help. Don't sit here and degrade a mode many of us enjoy a lot.

Art of War has conclavers myself included who happily teach people to be monsters in pvp every day.

Edited October 19, 2016 by (XB1)Aeries Vendetta

Nazrethim · October 19, 2016

34 minutes ago, (XB1)Aeries Vendetta said:

-snip-

-dicht.ThanksFrost- · October 20, 2016

5 hours ago, (XB1)Aeries Vendetta said:

I disagree horribly.

Some people do not possess the necessary skills to do the raids yet we don't see the developers lowering their standards.

Pvp honestly only takes practice. I've been at it now for a while and yes I'd like to some some incentives for people to actually try it. I want more player base. I'm tired of facing the same people over and over.

"Detracted from pve."

Bro are you serious?

It's the opposite. People have cried about pvp when it has NOTHING to do with pve. Most players who are mr22 haven't even set foot in a single conclave match. You don't have to. Yet still they try to get the developers to remove pvp. Why?

You guys that complain about pvp need to stop being selfish. We pvp guys for the most part don't try to get aspects of pve removed.

Pve has already poisoned conclave with the addition of that failure known as lunaro. It was cool for a minute then crashed and burned.

Pve has poisoned our solar rails which were our pvp equivalent of the raids.

The main problems with the community that is against pvp are as follows:

1. They walk into a match and get skunked. Instantly cry and say pvp is stupid. (Pile of horse S**t)

2. They refuse to ask for help. (What is good? What do you recommend?)

3. People hear what others say and they just go with it instead of actually finding out.

In absolutely everything in this world you need to ask questions of those who have done it more if you want to learn.

Electricians, fishermen, loggers, and Military members. You have to ask the vets who have done it to be the best and get the tricks of the trade that were passed to them. When u understand the game you can then create new tricks. The same thing applies to Warframe PVP.

I learned from Caduceus Fawks Elite, one of the best clans in console pvp.

I asked questions. Before that I didn't set foot in conclave. I partook in solar rails but did crappie against actual players. Now because I asked questions and was willing to learn im easily one of the best in console pvp I even defeated CFEs founder Vulari in a 1v1.

Ask for help. Don't sit here and degrade a mode many of us enjoy a lot.

Art of War has conclavers myself included who happily teach people to be monsters in pvp every day.

To compare a PvE raid to a PVP game mode, is apples and oranges. I don't think anyone would need to explain that.

Okay let's entertain this argument. With any game you will get better if you practice, and put time into it. If you put your time into anything you will gain results. To me this is just the assumption that people play 1-2 games and quit. The incentive for a player to get better at a game is that the game itself is entertaining, Clearly, because you brought this up that you keep playing the the same people over and over that is not the case. People don't find this entertaining, if such a large portion of the player base has tried conclave whether it be 5 hours, 24 hours, 6 days or 1 month and they discard it entirely then the game itself has failed (from a gameplay perspective) to entice a player. We live in a world where we are all different (this is indisputable) so dont expect that the things you value will apply to everyone else, because clearly that is not the case.

Why do people want PvP to get removed. As someone who used to play the pvp and pve extensively I can tell you why exactly.

1) The game is PvE, and is successful because of PvE. If resources are being diverted to a gamemode that almost no one plays, then DE is no focusing on the people who are giving them the most profits.

2) Conclave barely makes people buy platinum. Almost everything that is in conclave is free and because of its unpopularity does not make people want to buy plat.

3) From a business perspective, Raids are raking in more cash for warframe than conclave. This is why people like myself, want to see more dev attention towards it over conclave. More people play raids than PvP, the economy is enriched because of arcane sales. Thats another thing there were more raids played on that week when DE tallied all of the matches played than conclave, and most people will play a max of 3 raids per day 2 LoRs 1 JV. And yet the percentage was still higher.

Then you wonder why players want conclave removed, because its something that DE keep giving attention to. When much more important things need to be fixed right now. That are much crucial to this game's future and it's content.

If you are a PvE only player like the majority of warframe players, you see all of these crucial problems in the PvE and yet here is DE filling patch notes for a game that almost nobody cares about. And you wonder why people are not upset. Its something that nobody wanted period, and its still something that no one wanted.

Crashing and burning

This has to be a meme. You think conclave is this great thing. The pinnacle of warframe's success. Conclave at u16 crashed and burned just as hard, if not harder than lunaro. It destroyed an entire community, it made people hate pvp even more. Why? Because the development philosophy of "put this in and waif for people to complain, then fix it" the stupid desire of adding as much content as possible in one shot, barely even testing it. Thats what made conclave lose its popularity it was not finished or rather, it was actually OKAY when it came out in u16.

Solar rails were poisoned because, DE messed up. It failed, and they repeated the same mistake with conclave at release.

Those great numbered points

1)The first impression is always important. If the game doesn't entice you in the first second, especially in the PC market where there are hundreds of better choices then it failed. Thats competition.

2) Why would you ask for help in a game, if the game is not fun and interesting. So entitled, if someone thinks the game is S#&$, they dont want your help.

3) This is not the you tube comment section. People have minds of their own.

Also

Look this analogy just doesn't make sense. So i decide to try out being a fireman, and after seeing it, im not interested in being a fireman. So you actually think that is someone trains me to be a fireman, then ill miraculously will want to be a fireman?

People who are masters... actually dont even compare a conclaver, to a fireman, logger ,etc. Those people actually help and are conducive to a productive society. But for the sake of entertaining the argument. To want to become the master at something, you must first be interested at that something. For example I like 2d animation, I like to draw. Because im interested in drawing i take drawing classes and practice at home. If I dont like to draw, why the hell should I even bother trying to get good at drawing? You ask for advice for thins you are actually interested in. Forcing players ot ask for advice for something they clearly don't like is just stupid.

DiabolusUrsus · October 20, 2016

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Fine, not adding Conclave specific weapons. What about allowing in PvE the use of Conclave mods, most of them are niche and wouldn't really fit into builds and Stances may as well be considered cosmetic since without super high multipliers they are statistically inferior (only exception being Rending Wind Conclave Machete stance, but only because Sundering Weave s*cks)

I think PvP-style mods are fine, because they will by design always be restricted to niche function in PvE.

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Not really, I don't give a rat's arse if DE decides to put Conclave rewards on PvE droptables, but I don't think Syndicate standing rewards should be drops from regular grunts or rare enemies, and should only be available at the Syndicate that offers them. Work for it or Trade for it.

Okay then, my mistake. You seemed a bit touchy though. Let’s also be perfectly clear, I’m not suggesting that serious Conclave rewards simply drop from PvE grunts.

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I just hate two types of crowd: the "nerf it!" crowd (because everytime DE listens to them sh*t hits the fan) and the "I don't like the mission/mode so it should drop from grunts at draco or whatever!" crowd (which refuses any logical argument on the grounds they don't like whatever mission, or in this case, gamemode they don't like)

Properly-executed nerfs are a beneficial and invaluable tool to establishing PvE balance, no matter how many thrown tantrums they’ve caused. I also hope you can tell that I’m not part of the crowd that simply refuses logical arguments out-of-hand.

DiabolusUrsus · October 20, 2016

10 hours ago, (XB1)Aeries Vendetta said:

I disagree horribly.

Some people do not possess the necessary skills to do the raids yet we don't see the developers lowering their standards.

Pvp honestly only takes practice. I've been at it now for a while and yes I'd like to some some incentives for people to actually try it. I want more player base. I'm tired of facing the same people over and over.

It’s fine to disagree, but the issue at hand is not simply “If you just practice, you’ll like it.”

10 hours ago, (XB1)Aeries Vendetta said:

"Detracted from pve."

Bro are you serious?

It's the opposite. People have cried about pvp when it has NOTHING to do with pve. Most players who are mr22 haven't even set foot in a single conclave match. You don't have to. Yet still they try to get the developers to remove pvp. Why?

Absolutely serious.

Let me be clear: I’m not saying that PvP should be removed. That would accomplish exactly nothing, and be pointlessly destructive. I actually really appreciate that PvP is entirely optional, and I would like it to stay that way.

On the subject of PvP detracting from PvE, I sincerely feel that it has. The time that went into PvP could have been better spent on polishing PvE, especially when it comes to the subject of balance adjustments and refinements. If PvE got the same sort of balance attention that PvP had, Warframe would be a very different – and in my opinion much better – game.

10 hours ago, (XB1)Aeries Vendetta said:

You guys that complain about pvp need to stop being selfish. We pvp guys for the most part don't try to get aspects of pve removed.

Pve has already poisoned conclave with the addition of that failure known as lunaro. It was cool for a minute then crashed and burned.

Pve has poisoned our solar rails which were our pvp equivalent of the raids.

I don’t know who this “you guys” is, but I don’t recall arguing for removing any aspect of PvP.

On the subject of Solar Rails, I would argue that no, it was in fact Solar Rails that had a poisonous influence on PvE. The Rails marked the disgraceful period of time where PvP ego-strutting bled over into the PvE game uncontrollably. Whether it was some troll alliance setting 100% tax rates on designated farming spots or some alliance trying to muscle-in on existing territory rendering the nodes completely unusable, the rails created a ridiculous amount of pointless drama. They hampered my ability to enjoy an already-disappointing and lackluster attempt at end-game.

10 hours ago, (XB1)Aeries Vendetta said:

The main problems with the community that is against pvp are as follows:

1. They walk into a match and get skunked. Instantly cry and say pvp is stupid. (Pile of horse S**t)

2. They refuse to ask for help. (What is good? What do you recommend?)

3. People hear what others say and they just go with it instead of actually finding out.

The thing you’re missing is that “the community’s” complaints about PvP are not my complaints about PvP.

Here are my complaints:

Piss-poor matchmaking in any mode that isn’t deathmatch.
A complete lack of anything resembling effective team-balance or ELO-type system.
Complete reliance on crappy P2P hosting that turns 9 in every 10 matches into a frustrating lag session (my computer and connection are solid, before you go there).
Horrendous lack of variety when it comes to game modes.
Matches that flip-flop between snooze-fests as people cheese the challenges and landslide victories either way. I have never encountered another PvP game with such a drought of close, evenly-fought matches.

So, if you’d like to address those complaints, go right ahead. In the mean-time please refrain from constructing arguments, attributing them to me, and then shooting them down for show.

10 hours ago, (XB1)Aeries Vendetta said:

In absolutely everything in this world you need to ask questions of those who have done it more if you want to learn.

Electricians, fishermen, loggers, and Military members. You have to ask the vets who have done it to be the best and get the tricks of the trade that were passed to them. When u understand the game you can then create new tricks. The same thing applies to Warframe PVP.

I learned from Caduceus Fawks Elite, one of the best clans in console pvp.

I asked questions. Before that I didn't set foot in conclave. I partook in solar rails but did crappie against actual players. Now because I asked questions and was willing to learn im easily one of the best in console pvp I even defeated CFEs founder Vulari in a 1v1.

Ask for help. Don't sit here and degrade a mode many of us enjoy a lot.

Art of War has conclavers myself included who happily teach people to be monsters in pvp every day.

The real-world isn’t exactly a great analogy for a game. In the real world, yes, people have to seek out professional knowledge. In a game, it’s the game’s obligation to teach its players how to play. (And even in the real world, compulsory training is sort of a thing. You shouldn’t have to go searching for some sort of mentoring community when you start a new job.)

You’ve got a nice e-peen flaunt going there, but it’s kinda irrelevant to the point of contention. I mentioned in a previous post that I had gotten to Typhoon rank. I did not do poorly for myself while getting there. Still, while your comparatively greater wealth of experience and probable greater skill would definitely lend you more credibility in a discussion of PvP balance... when it comes to discussing the merits of the gameplay and the architecture you and I are on completely equal footing.

PvP isn’t unpopular solely because players are lazy and petulant. A great many players are lazy and petulant, but those players exist in every PvP game ever and have no real bearing on the game’s popularity. Take for example, League of Legends and CS:GO. Tremendously popular games with infamously toxic communities.

Warframe’s PvP simply isn’t very fun (I’d like to think in large part due to the issues I raised, rather than its fundamental mechanics or community) for most players, and simply adding rewards is not going to change that.

What it will* do is frustrate a lot of players – rightfully so, mind you – when they can’t acquire that shiny new unique weapon (e.g. Dual Nikanas or some other weapon that is not readily-available through PvE) without slogging through the misery that is the current iteration of Conclave or spending possibly hours idly fishing through Trade channel.

Consequently, I think that’s a bad idea.

*Remember, I'm talking about rewards that would also be significant PvE rewards. PvP-specific rewards would be fine. Significant PvE rewards that are also readily available through PvE would also be fine.

Nazrethim · October 20, 2016

10 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Okay then, my mistake. You seemed a bit touchy though. Let’s also be perfectly clear, I’m not suggesting that serious Conclave rewards simply drop from PvE grunts.

Don't worry. What I suggested in another thread was making the End of match Conclave mods drop from enemies that make sense, regular grunt or not, like making the Supra mod Directed Convergence drop from Techs, as they use the Supra, or the Grinlok Nightwatch lancers drop Grinloked. And the EoM mods that don't make sense be added to Sentients or Rathuum. Why specifically the EoM mods? because they are RNG rewards, not standing rewards.

Quote

Properly-executed nerfs are a beneficial and invaluable tool to establishing PvE balance, no matter how many thrown tantrums they’ve caused.

Yes, properly executed nerfs are beneficial, but often the "nerf it" crowd goes beyond, like asking for nerfs that don't really need a nerf or could be solved by simple mechanical changes. The proper "nerfs" are in fact rebalance are often suggested by actual users of the warframe, weapon or mod in question, instead of someone who doesn't play or like whatever is the topic. Take for instance Blade Storm in Conclave and it's evolution:

1- Conclave 2.0 launch: BS has near pointblank range (about 5m casting and radius), deals 150 Slash damage and requires pin point accuracy. Cost energy on sucessful cast making it a "get close > spam button" affair. Attacks the target and two extra players once.

2- DE buffs Blade Storm range to about 12m cast range and marking radius. 200 Conclave Finisher damage. Pin-point accuracy required. Uses energy on successful cast.

Nerf it crowd: BS is overpowered! nerf it!

Actual users: just give it soft-lock and make it cost energy when you press the button even if you don't mark anything, therefore making it able to miss.

3- DE listens to actual users and BS was mostly fine, though the 12m marking radius was still and issue as it worked trough walls.

Nerf it crowd: BS is overpowered! nerf it!

Actual users: Marking range is too big. Reduce marking radius to about 5m and make it require LoS with the caster. Keep the damage and casting range as they are because those aspects are fine for a missable ultimate offensive ability.

4- DE listens to the "nerf it" crowd and nerfs damage and both casting and radius range. That's current BS, one of, if not The, weakest offensive ultimates in Conclave, a waste of energy 90% of the time (due to failing to mark sh*t or not dealing enough damage due to being a single hit spell).

Quote

I also hope you can tell that I’m not part of the crowd that simply refuses logical arguments out-of-hand.

No, you're not. You make logical arguments and you know what you're talking about.

Also, I have another idea for a Conclave weapon:

A PvE quest featuring Teshin that awards on completion a bp for dual nikana and a Stance that is developed for Conclave but can be used in both modes. Once you complete the quest the Dual Nikana blueprint and the stance become available from Teshin for 130k and 2k Standing respectively. So every player can get one, but if you sell it like Mastery fodder you would need to do Conclave to get it back.

What do you think of that? It would be like the Exilus adapter.

DiabolusUrsus · October 21, 2016

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Don't worry. What I suggested in another thread was making the End of match Conclave mods drop from enemies that make sense, regular grunt or not, like making the Supra mod Directed Convergence drop from Techs, as they use the Supra, or the Grinlok Nightwatch lancers drop Grinloked. And the EoM mods that don't make sense be added to Sentients or Rathuum. Why specifically the EoM mods? because they are RNG rewards, not standing rewards.

Ahhh. Yeah, I'm all for adding logical drops to enemies.

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

1- Conclave 2.0 launch: BS has near pointblank range (about 5m casting and radius), deals 150 Slash damage and requires pin point accuracy. Cost energy on sucessful cast making it a "get close > spam button" affair. Attacks the target and two extra players once.

2- DE buffs Blade Storm range to about 12m cast range and marking radius. 200 Conclave Finisher damage. Pin-point accuracy required. Uses energy on successful cast.

Nerf it crowd: BS is overpowered! nerf it!

Actual users: just give it soft-lock and make it cost energy when you press the button even if you don't mark anything, therefore making it able to miss.

3- DE listens to actual users and BS was mostly fine, though the 12m marking radius was still and issue as it worked trough walls.

Nerf it crowd: BS is overpowered! nerf it!

Actual users: Marking range is too big. Reduce marking radius to about 5m and make it require LoS with the caster. Keep the damage and casting range as they are because those aspects are fine for a missable ultimate offensive ability.

4- DE listens to the "nerf it" crowd and nerfs damage and both casting and radius range. That's current BS, one of, if not The, weakest offensive ultimates in Conclave, a waste of energy 90% of the time (due to failing to mark sh*t or not dealing enough damage due to being a single hit spell).

So that's what you meant. Sorry, I'm a little too used to "nerf crowd" referring to anyone who doesn't revile nerfs as heretical.

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

No, you're not. You make logical arguments and you know what you're talking about.

Also, I have another idea for a Conclave weapon:

A PvE quest featuring Teshin that awards on completion a bp for dual nikana and a Stance that is developed for Conclave but can be used in both modes. Once you complete the quest the Dual Nikana blueprint and the stance become available from Teshin for 130k and 2k Standing respectively. So every player can get one, but if you sell it like Mastery fodder you would need to do Conclave to get it back.

What do you think of that? It would be like the Exilus adapter.

Sweet.

That "quest for it once, earn it back later" sounds acceptable to me, but you'll run into potential issues depending on how they decide to implement replayable quests. Still, adding that for now and crossing that bridge when we get to it is fine. Your suggestion sounds pretty great.

As an alternate suggestion, I would say simply introduce a PvE source of Conclave standing. Nothing too fancy, but I think it's unrealistic to try waiting until the AI can be made comparable to human players. That's just not going to happen any time even remotely soon. How does this system sound?

Players can earn Conclave standing by playing Rathuum, Index (on release) and hopefully a "specter" version of the arena type mode.
Conclave standing is earned at a default 50% rate for per-match earnings and challenge bonuses. This penalty is also applied to weekly challenge benefits, which means the Stance rewards are excluded.
Additional rate penalties of 10% increments are applied for every 100 points of Conclave Rating, up to a cap of 40% additional penalty. The weekly bonus is always locked at 50% the normal rate.

Thus, you play Arena (which is the closest to PvE PvP there is) to grind Conclave. If you want to grind faster, you use Conclave-styled loadouts. If you want to just power your way through every match, you can still use PvE loadouts but they penalize your benefits.

Thoughts?

Nazrethim · October 21, 2016

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

So that's what you meant. Sorry, I'm a little too used to "nerf crowd" referring to anyone who doesn't revile nerfs as heretical.

Properly executed nerfs are necesary from time to time and that's fine. Overnerfing something for no reason or nerfing the wrong aspects of something is the true problem.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That "quest for it once, earn it back later" sounds acceptable to me, but you'll run into potential issues depending on how they decide to implement replayable quests. Still, adding that for now and crossing that bridge when we get to it is fine. Your suggestion sounds pretty great.

My suggestions always apply to current (at the time of posting) game balance. And replayable quest could be made to no longer award the original prize, but something else.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

As an alternate suggestion, I would say simply introduce a PvE source of Conclave standing. Nothing too fancy, but I think it's unrealistic to try waiting until the AI can be made comparable to human players. That's just not going to happen any time even remotely soon. How does this system sound?

Players can earn Conclave standing by playing Rathuum, Index (on release) and hopefully a "specter" version of the arena type mode.

Conclave standing is earned at a default 50% rate for per-match earnings and challenge bonuses. This penalty is also applied to weekly challenge benefits, which means the Stance rewards are excluded.

Additional rate penalties of 10% increments are applied for every 100 points of Conclave Rating, up to a cap of 40% additional penalty. The weekly bonus is always locked at 50% the normal rate.

Thus, you play Arena (which is the closest to PvE PvP there is) to grind Conclave. If you want to grind faster, you use Conclave-styled loadouts. If you want to just power your way through every match, you can still use PvE loadouts but they penalize your benefits.

Thoughts?

First I'm opposed to make a PvE way to get all the high-end stuff of Conclave as the main focus of the Syndicate is PvP. However, I do believe a "training mode" vs specters could be workable.

Your idea seems a bit too convoluted for a new player, and also is vulnerable to PvE's power creep. I have an idea too:

Training Mode:

-Team Anihilation only. Up to 4 players, always on Team Sun. Team Moon is composed of Warframe Specters equal to the number of players.

-Uses Conclave loadouts.

-Warframe specter loadout are generated randomly from the following pool:

Warframes: Excalibur, Mag, Volt, Ash, Rhino, Valkyr, Trinity

Primary: Braton, Paris, Strun, Boltor, Sybaris

Secondary: Magnus, Lex, Lato, Kunai, Pyrana

Melee: Skana, Bo, Furax, Dual Skana, Scindo, Fragor

-Specters use a rathum/stalker hybrid AI that makes them move around, parkour a bit and shoot the players and swap weapons when necesary.

-Players earn match standing from Conclave Rank 1-2, once they reach Conclave Rank 3 they stop getting standing. Challenges don't count for these sesions, but there would be a daily challenge for it: "Training to be better" (complete 5 Training matches) that awards 500 standing. This challenge is disabled once you reach Conclave Rank 3.

With this Training mode players can get used to Conclave loadouts and practice in peace vs AI for the first Conclave ranks, but would need to "graduate" from it if they want to access the higher ranks.

(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta · October 21, 2016

Training mode already exists.

Put the game on invite only and it's you and whoever you want in your game.

Doesn't get any points for anything. I train all the people I get that way.

Shining_Darkness · October 26, 2016

Ye, when PvE and PvP compete in same game, it all boils down to what is more rewarding in minds of most people, so making rewards equal would make PvP here much more popular

TheJadrimian · October 26, 2016

I might draw the line at weapons (no doubt that'd cause drama) but I like the 'dual nikana skin for dual-swords' idea, and everything else in the OP's list sounds awesome – especially Operator Apparel and drop-ship skins!

October 26, 2016

While we are at it. Can I please have the following Landing Craft decorations :

Moon Statue

Sun Statue

Oro Statue

Conclave logo banner

_{And the VARIANT Opticor abilities packed in a mod for PvE - One can dream.}

Edited October 26, 2016 by Pun-chee

bernad2218 · October 26, 2016

1 hour ago, Pun-chee said:

_{And the VARIANT Opticor abilities packed in a mod for PvE - One can dream.}

step aside Covert Lethality we got a new meta here

October 26, 2016

1 hour ago, bernad2218 said:

step aside Covert Lethality we got a new meta here

Oh no no, I didn't mean that it always should one-shot everything. No damage altering, just the (hard capped) 5 shot mag with infinite ammo on reload, the super fast charge and of course the visuals and sound effects from kills.

(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta · October 27, 2016

The experience you guys have is drastically different from mine...

Make Conclave More Rewarding

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