Equinox, Ying and Yang needs a few tweaks

[tnccs215]

16 minutes ago, xcynderx said:

I've been trying the peaceful provocation pacify...and honestly..it absolutely sucks to build up...25 damage for 1% is utter garbage...should by 25 damage for 5% (yes 5%) especially against something like infested (where this absolutely SHINES) I may not be running 200% STR...but its still 72% max for my current build (will post once i max her again, just forma'd)....The infested become absolute cake to fight (did a 45 min solo apollo...only reason i left was due to synoid sim being on the wrong build.)

 

Dar I say it...but having to take damage to slow the enemies down is stupid...should be kill based at 1% or even 0.5% per kill.....as her Day form is damage based increase, you can get to max REALLY REALLY quickly compared to Night form.

It is utterly frustrating to build up. You have to loose multiple times her maximum health in order to fully upgrade the slow, and it's not even a static price.

[Kalvorax]

oh, so i was thinking about a possible change to the provocation augment....

 

A) As I stated, make it charge at 0.5% to 1.5% per kill...great for getting it chraged from all the fodder enemies

 

or B) TIME BASED...just did the DSS on Venus....it took me 15 minutes to get it to 50%...the whole point of survival or any game mode really, is to not get hit....

if it was made time based ramp up, then i would say up to 90 seconds to get a full charge of 80% (at 200% Power STR). This would be reduced by power strength (as to have a good build for this you have to be running low duration)

now the timer would passively be counting up as long as Equinox is in her Night form, if she changes forms then it goes back to 0, even if she switched quickly....i say this because getting knocked off the map and force respawned shuts her abilities off as well...which would result in having to build it up again this also applies to getting into bleedout ...though if you have to use a revive then it would also restart at 0. This way, you do get knocked off the map it will still be at full strength.

If you run out of energy, the timer will not count up....just did a DSS on jupiter and the stupid parasitic units sucked my energy down (from 525) so fast that i couldnt keep it going and had to evacuate (note: these units should NOT be draining energy un less they have LOS, imo)

Edited October 29, 2016 by xcynderx

[Atekron]

On 25.10.2016 at 0:21 AM, ShadeC said:

In night form, allies are healed with each nearby enemy killed

Just do what description said, instantly, without storing and releasing, kill enemy and receive health. And yeah Equinox is amazing.

[TouFuub]

On 10/25/2016 at 5:21 AM, ShadeC said:

Mend & Maim - Day

All good as far as I'm concerned, slash procs are the best procs in the game and the damage builds up pretty fast so you can pop a room full of enemies, maybe the energy drain could be reduced just a little bit from 3.5 to 3, but its not really needed, its good.

I really don't want to point it out, but Maim still suffers from high-level armour units issue. Against other factions the ability is amazing and has great scaling, but for Grineer with armour/ Corrupted Heavy Gunner & Bombard the damage is pathetic even you've accumulated much damage. I think DE should really take a look at the ability against armour unit and make it more viable to kill high-lv. armour units just like the other two high-lv faction.

And for pacify, I have the struggle of using more range or using more power, considering that it can be energy-costing if the ability covers a large group of enemies even with max. efficiency, and considering the range of the ability, if using more range to cover up more like adding in overextended, there'll be strength reduction which is no good at all (It seems that enemies will actually be buffed with negative power strength, based on the description from the wiki) with a side-effect of costing more energy per second, and if using more strength to see real work on the damage reduction (besides blind range, we don't want the ability to be really energy-costing, right?), the range won't be that great without overextended and would suffer duration reduction, affecting other abilities.

Rage is not practical to use considering that there are frames like Nova (Prime) or sonar-based Banshee that specialized in debuffing enemies with low cost of energy and great coverage, while you have to constantly use the ability to achieve what the above can do easily. And if focusing on such ability (high-strength and range, as well as decent duration), it may not fit with other abilities, like end-game Maim that doesn't require strength and needs good efficiency and duration for energy economy. Also, the speed buff makes the ability less rewarding to use.

I'm sorry if I didn't go into details and well-covered, if so, I might end up creating a new topic with extremely long analysis on Equinox's features and problems, and oh boy, that'd take a long time doing so for me.

TL;DR:

Spoiler

Equinox's Maim needs some tweaks on issues with armoured enemies, especially in high-level

Pacify and Rage is not worthy enough to be focused unless using the augment for pacify.

 

[tnccs215]

20 minutes ago, TouFuUniverse said:

I really don't want to point it out, but Maim still suffers from high-level armour units issue. Against other factions the ability is amazing and has great scaling, but for Grineer with armour/ Corrupted Heavy Gunner & Bombard the damage is pathetic even you've accumulated much damage. I think DE should really take a look at the ability against armour unit and make it more viable to kill high-lv. armour units just like the other two high-lv faction.

And for pacify, I have the struggle of using more range or using more power, considering that it can be energy-costing if the ability covers a large group of enemies even with max. efficiency, and considering the range of the ability, if using more range to cover up more like adding in overextended, there'll be strength reduction which is no good at all (It seems that enemies will actually be buffed with negative power strength, based on the description from the wiki) with a side-effect of costing more energy per second, and if using more strength to see real work on the damage reduction (besides blind range, we don't want the ability to be really energy-costing, right?), the range won't be that great without overextended and would suffer duration reduction, affecting other abilities.

Rage is not practical to use considering that there are frames like Nova (Prime) or sonar-based Banshee that specialized in debuffing enemies with low cost of energy and great coverage, while you have to constantly use the ability to achieve what the above can do easily. And if focusing on such ability (high-strength and range, as well as decent duration), it may not fit with other abilities, like end-game Maim that doesn't require strength and needs good efficiency and duration for energy economy. Also, the speed buff makes the ability less rewarding to use.

I'm sorry if I didn't go into details and well-covered, if so, I might end up creating a new topic with extremely long analysis on Equinox's features and problems, and oh boy, that'd take a long time doing so for me.

TL;DR:

  Hide contents

Equinox's Maim needs some tweaks on issues with armoured enemies, especially in high-level

Pacify and Rage is not worthy enough to be focused unless using the augment for pacify.

 

Every damage dealing method has issues against high level armor. The problem is armor itself, not the ability, as far as my opinion is concerned. Honestly, biggest problem I see with the ability is how it belongs o World of Fire Cheese territory at low levels. Id rather have it deal a percentual damage (25% of current health for example) instead of the damage it deals atm.

Agree with Pacify and Rage, though the augment basically throws Equinox's theme to the trash.

[TouFuub]

4 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Honestly, biggest problem I see with the ability is how it belongs to World of Fire Cheese territory at low levels. Id rather have it deal a percentual damage (25% of current health for example) instead of the damage it deals atm.

I don't really think the damage output mechanic should be changed as the ability can really shine out bright as a scaling ability in high-level Corpus/ Infested factions while still requires careful decision of deactivating the ability or not (unless you have done a lot, I mean tons and tons of researches, calculations and experiments on the relationship of accumulation, as well as in-depth experience with such ability in high-level missions). A percentual damage concept makes the ability feels like Trinity's EV damage, which for me feels a bit weird and has moved away from the original concept.

It's really sad that many still has the impression that Maim is belonged to the low-level cheese territory. Before the change with toggle abilities energy-draining mechanic, yes it can be quite cheesy, but now, the spotlight of room-clearing ability is taken by WoF. Really, the ability is not only for low-level room-clearing anymore, but a wide range of levels. Yet, the aura damage (separated from the accumulative damage) is not viable, or worthless, in high-lv gameplay, while still a room-clearing option with the cost of high-energy draining.

I was thinking if there can be an addition of CC (e.g. brief blinding, short radiation proc., etc.)/ replacing the aura damage with CC when making tweaks to Equinox because when using Maim, the ability can't provide a long-lasting CC stun and the lack of CC can reduce the survivability of Day form Equinox as such form is offensive-focused. In my opinion, adding in/ replacing the aura damage with small, not-Rest-significant CC may help clearing up the negative impression about Maim, as well as aiding in to Day form Equinox's survivability.

[tnccs215]

3 hours ago, TouFuUniverse said:

I don't really think the damage output mechanic should be changed as the ability can really shine out bright as a scaling ability in high-level Corpus/ Infested factions while still requires careful decision of deactivating the ability or not (unless you have done a lot, I mean tons and tons of researches, calculations and experiments on the relationship of accumulation, as well as in-depth experience with such ability in high-level missions). A percentual damage concept makes the ability feels like Trinity's EV damage, which for me feels a bit weird and has moved away from the original concept.

I mean for the initial instance of damage, not the stored nuke. I'm ok with the storage mechanic on Maim as is.

3 hours ago, TouFuUniverse said:

It's really sad that many still has the impression that Maim is belonged to the low-level cheese territory. Before the change with toggle abilities energy-draining mechanic, yes it can be quite cheesy, but now, the spotlight of room-clearing ability is taken by WoF. Really, the ability is not only for low-level room-clearing anymore, but a wide range of levels. Yet, the aura damage (separated from the accumulative damage) is not viable, or worthless, in high-lv gameplay, while still a room-clearing option with the cost of high-energy draining.

:|

Pardon the bluntness, but  everything you just said is objectively false.

Maim is a wide range, slash proc guaranteed damaging aura. It is true that the initial damage cannot scale has high has World of Fire, but to pretend it isnt a low level walking cheese ability is pure denial.

Ignoring the nuke, it features high range, finisher damage, and low drain (seriously, how is 3.5 base drain high?). It is perfect for low level walking cheese. Get a Provoking Equinox and a Rhino, and you might be able to walk around up to level 40.

3 hours ago, TouFuUniverse said:

I was thinking if there can be an addition of CC (e.g. brief blinding, short radiation proc., etc.)/ replacing the aura damage with CC when making tweaks to Equinox because when using Maim, the ability can't provide a long-lasting CC stun and the lack of CC can reduce the survivability of Day form Equinox as such form is offensive-focused. In my opinion, adding in/ replacing the aura damage with small, not-Rest-significant CC may help clearing up the negative impression about Maim, as well as aiding in to Day form Equinox's survivability.

It wouldn't be a terrible idea but... Frankly, in my opinion, continuing to treat Equinox like the Dark Split Sword of Frames is a disservice to her. We shouldn't have to need to put defensive measures in the specialized offensive aspect, because the whole point of Equinox was to be able to adapt and sacrifice.

Ugh. I have been playing Equinox ever since she came out. She is my main, my "bae". I know her like the palm of my hand, and truth is... I'm awfully disappointed. I haven't done a thread about her explaining why I think she is a failed execution, but hey, here comes a ranting:

what should happen is a small nerf to Rest (and adding some extra, team supporting flavour, in order to differentiate from Quiver), changing the initial damage of Maim from a static damage (cheese at low levels, irrelevant at high) to damage based on the current enemy health (while keeping the nuke mechanics), making peaceful provocation's pacify buff start at 20% (up to 40%), removing the damage reduction fall off of pacify, Adding a defensive thing to Mend's initial cast (such as status immunity and invisibility during cast), and, above all, allowing form changing without punishment: abilities should change to the appropriate version instead of being deactivated.

This would allow Equinox to actually be adaptable, to instantly tailor herself to the situation, as she was meant to from the beginning.

What annoys me is how everyone has simply accepted Equinox as two frames. She is not, she is just one. One, whose execution is butchered in half. Alternatively, people think that she is a jack of All Trades, which is even worse: She isn't neither a Jack nor a Specialized. She (should be) is a unique in-betweener, capable of adapting (i.e. momentaneously specializing herself) to the situation. Unlike a jack frame, she isn't capable of doing everything at the same time, and unlike a specialist, she isn't a complete master of the role. In turn, she is capable of doing more than a specialist, and better than a Jack.

DE failed incredibly in the execution. This is a reactive game, it's impossible to preemptively adapt. Hell, even ciphers have a hotkey. Anything that prevents an instant response (like, say, powers being deactivated) is a punishment. If Equinox is to be adaptable, she needs to be so instantly. Not being able to be offensive and defensive simultaneously is trade off enough. But no, DE had to make abilities deactivate on change, and they had to put half of her abilities require investment.

All in all, current Equinox is soft locked to a form during a mission. And, honestly, if she is to be that way, there is no point for her to exist. You can easily get frames that do everything she does and better (Nova comes to mind). If she is meant to just be two different frames sharing a slot, better for DE to separate them. At least that way, they get more money, and we don't waste a forma fusing the Aspects.

[TouFuub]

8 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I mean for the initial instance of damage, not the stored nuke. I'm ok with the storage mechanic on Maim as is.

Yeah sorry for that, though you were talking about the accumulative damage.

5 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Pardon the bluntness, but  everything you just said is objectively false.

Maim is a wide range, slash proc guaranteed damaging aura. It is true that the initial damage cannot scale has high has World of Fire, but to pretend it isnt a low level walking cheese ability is pure denial.

Ignoring the nuke, it features high range, finisher damage, and low drain (seriously, how is 3.5 base drain high?). It is perfect for low level walking cheese. Get a Provoking Equinox and a Rhino, and you might be able to walk around up to level 40.

I was not denying the use of high power Maim in low-level, but wanting to point out that Maim's aura damage is not relatively that good for not-so-low-level cheese as the others thought compared with other room-cleaning abilities. I should be more clear with my statement: It's really sad that many still has the impression that Maim is only belonged to the low-level cheese territory.

When you are going for aura-damage Maim Equinox, you probably drains a lot of energy. The reason why the base drain is 3.5 energy per second is because of the toggle energy-drain mechanic change. Before Hotfix 17.5.3, it's 5 energy per second. If you apply this number of drain to the current game, you'll get a Mesa-level of draining. And if you want wide range, you wouldn't and shouldn't use Narrow Minded. To try to met Maim's max. level of aura damage, you'll need all the strength mod and all efficiency mods and at least two range mods, with Overextended and Stretch, a reduction on power strength will leave you at 239% power strength and 235% range, even with standard provoke, it is not enough to wipe out a room of Sedna-level Grineer, even for Pluto-level Corpus and Infested it's not insta-kill. Not to mention the energy drain is still high even when you add in all the efficiency mods but lack of duration mods, and when max. Transient Fortitude combined with max. Fleeting Expertise, the duration will be just 12%, which the drain is still high. And if adding in the 3^rd ability augment, a slot is used and will be harder to add in duration mods. That means, the aura damage will work ideally in levels from 1-30 for Corpus and Infested, and 1-2 level lower for , but not for Sedna/Pluto-levels, which is also considered as low-levels. Unless you always play Mars/ Europa/ Saturn, etc., the aura damage is relatively not good enough to get popular usage compared with other room-cleaning abilities: people don't want slash procs over time, they want insta-kill.

That leave us a question: Why people choose Ember (Prime) instead? Ember is easy, high-quality damage (initial explosion+fire damage ticks) that can insta-kill the regular Sedna/ Pluto level, reaching sortie-1 (or 2, depends on the faction facing) level of room-clearing with good energy usage and coverage, and most importantly, solo. To be a good room-clearer, you shouldn't even be heavily relied on allies, even augments. I've seen many room-cleaner, many of them are using Ember instead of Equinox. I've tried to use Aura Maim Equinox to clear rooms in a team with room-cleaning Ember in  mission, and I was defeated. Sure, Equinox can room-clean, but there are much better options of room-cleaning than Aura Maim Equinox, so why choosing them? (Yes, I use "them" instead of "her", I hate Day form to be said as "female", we should have autonomy on how we see the frame as instead of being set to a gender).

But I do agree that the low-level cheese problem is a thing along with worthless aura damage problem at high-level. One-time-use percentual damage can be a good alternative.

8 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

It wouldn't be a terrible idea but... Frankly, in my opinion, continuing to treat Equinox like the Dark Split Sword of Frames is a disservice to her. We shouldn't have to need to put defensive measures in the specialized offensive aspect, because the whole point of Equinox was to be able to adapt and sacrifice.

Ugh. I have been playing Equinox ever since she came out. She is my main, my "bae". I know her like the palm of my hand, and truth is... I'm awfully disappointed

I can feel the same, as Equinox is a representation of my personality, and almost exceeding the usage percentage of my waifu main frame Nyx (Prime). As much as I want Equinox to be great, their lack of fluidity on post-switching form abilities usage is just painful and in wrong-direction with the nature of this game.

Though, I was concerning with the numbers of Mend & Maim when switching form. I don't know what hidden calculation is taken behind Mend but I know for sure that Maim's number shown in the HUD is NOT the total damage output number. I am worrying that when switching form from Night to Day, the numbers accumulated from Mend will not be suitable to Maim as Mend & Maim has different calculations involved.