Is This Really The Quality We Deserve?

[10ner]

I dont think that this is so much of a deal.

But it still feels like rushed content.

I mean, nobody was waiting for the Kogake to be released, so nobody would have minded it being released a weak later.

If they released it a weak later, but with the weapon actually fitting on the character models, they wouldnt have to bother polishing out the bugs after the release.

I think its a rather small problem, but symptomatic of the release policy in general. There wouldnt be a need for Update 9 qua polishing update in the first place if they didnt rush nearly all of the released content. Looking back should always have priority over new content.

Sooner or later (approaching the point where the beta ends) they have to be able to release content which doesnt need a lot of fixing. So with every release they have to get a bit better and the Kogake just dont feel like that.

[VScipii26]

Alright...
First, the actions of other games are not what we base something else. It's the playground argument of "Well he's doing it!"

Second, being in Beta is not an excuse to disregard ANY feedback, even bad, spite, and angry feedback. It is not an excuse in any way shape or form. It is a label saying "Unfinished project, help us test".

It's testing and feedback, not "You should be @(*()$ happy we're letting you play this. Shut up and accept every bug there is."
Yes, this particular bug is a simple graphical glitch, but that doesn't mean it should go unspoken.

Edited July 2, 2013 by VScipii26

[SanguineXIII]

Sure is a lot of entitlement going on ITT.  You agreed to a ToS that basically stated anything you're paying for in this BETA can be thrown right out the window and scrapped and that it's entirely your loss, all you get is refunded platinum in game (Which is actually quite generous, cause they could not even refund you platinum if they wanted.).  Deal with it, the game is in Beta, whether or not you're paying for it has nothing to do with the quality of buggy content in a beta.

 

More on the topic of the weapon itself, the reason it doesn't fit properly is that there are flipping 10+ different warframe models with hands and feet of different shapes.  Give them a break...  Unless you think you can do any better, then be my guest and start making your own space ninja shooter mmo.

 

Stuff like this can be fixed over time easily, it's not like it's a major bug for crying out loud.

Edited July 2, 2013 by SanguineXIII

[fatpig84]

I rather they fix game breaking bugs than some graphical glitch.

Anyone actually remembered the CS M4 carbine charging handle being animated wrongly ?

Tons of people were crying out loud.

Most fire arm purists eventually put it to a rest when there are MORE pressing issues to handle.

They had it since early beta, it wasn't until CS source that they fixed that issue.

 

That is how long it took to resolve a graphics error, but in place of it, they had numerous fixes, maps, new weapons and balances. I rather see that.

Edited July 2, 2013 by fatpig84

[Troublechutor]

I can still wall-run right out of the map.  I can get trapped in geometry.  Seen a rhino charge at a wall in the void and get stuck outide the map and lose out on tons loot and exp.  I can wall climb out of the map in most rooms in the game.

 

The models of one weapon in the game are hardly a major concern.

[Earz]

First world problems.

[boosh1]

I'm sorry but even in a "Beta" you don't hand out weapons that aren't actually fixed to a player model. That doesn't need feedback it just needs common flipping sense.

 

 

Sorry but I've just started a games testing job, the bugs I find on my job are the same to what you've noted here. Point being this game is not finished either and if you think realistically this is what game devs will label low priority in comparison to other things. Yes it's common sense, and the dev team will know about this and it'll be on their list, give them a chance.

[NoirProxy]

Sorry but I've just started a games testing job, the bugs I find on my job are the same to what you've noted here. Point being this game is not finished either and if you think realistically this is what game devs will label low priority in comparison to other things. Yes it's common sense, and the dev team will know about this and it'll be on their list, give them a chance.

 

I think they have had enough chances when it is happening with nearly every single weapon. To me in my mind this comes off as a "Put it out there, I will do it later" attitude. Heck I could be wrong but at the same time I could be right but such discussions wouldn't come up in the first place if you used my Roger & Jerry example.

 

 

Sure is a lot of entitlement going on ITT.  You agreed to a ToS that basically stated anything you're paying for in this BETA can be thrown right out the window and scrapped and that it's entirely your loss, all you get is refunded platinum in game (Which is actually quite generous, cause they could not even refund you platinum if they wanted.).  Deal with it, the game is in Beta, whether or not you're paying for it has nothing to do with the quality of buggy content in a beta.

 

More on the topic of the weapon itself, the reason it doesn't fit properly is that there are flipping 10+ different warframe models with hands and feet of different shapes.  Give them a break...  Unless you think you can do any better, then be my guest and start making your own space ninja shooter mmo.

 

Stuff like this can be fixed over time easily, it's not like it's a major bug for crying out loud.

 

Hold your horses and take a deep breath.

 

Why would I have to do it better? It isn't my job to make the game the best it can be. I can contribute my opinion but if you are prepping content for players to use and feel good when using them at first glance then you need that content to look good in the first place as I said.

 

As I mentioned in my first post this isn't me being annoyed as a consumer but more being annoyed for the consumer base as a whole, or did you miss that in the first few lines? :-(

 

With my Jerry and Roger example the decision was made and as you can see in the forums you are getting tons of threads bringing it up once more. I also mentioned that the weapons work fine and such but the problem is that everything is generally plopped in as placeholders for something else. A placeholder is used when you haven't finished something but what does that tell you when 90% of everything we have seen is always unfinished in some way?

 

As many have said before me in threads long gone by, I think DE need to focus on getting what they have right now ready before moving onwards so that they don't have a pile of stuff to fix in the long run. In the end all you are doing is piling and piling all of these problems that need to be fixed instead of doing it on the day you made them.

 

If you are given a task to do you don't do some of it and then leave it to finish down the road. No one in their right mind should ever do that and it is a really poor work ethic. It is actually one of the main don'ts of every single job ever. Why some people would defend that is beyond me but I won't question you as you are entitled to that belief, I would rather defend my own opinion.

 

We watch these livestreams of them telling us that they are working on something new and BIG but do we really need that all the time? If they refined and fixed their core stuff which we hope will be accompolished in this U9 then they could continue onwards into the future without having to look back at things they need to still fix. It is just adding work to the work that shouldn't be work weeks down the line.

Edited July 2, 2013 by NoirProxy

[boosh1]

I think they have had enough chances when it is happening with nearly every single weapon. To me in my mind this comes off as a "Put it out there, I will do it later" attitude. Heck I could be wrong but at the same time I could be right but such discussions wouldn't come up in the first place if you used my Roger & Jerry example.

 I think you missed the point there. Yes they've had loads of chances, just like every dev team ever when it comes to bugs. Doesn't stop them existing. Just to make this clear, on my job there is a level which is considered content complete (aka finished, playable nothing really wrong with it). There are still 1000+ bugs in the bug database for that level. 

Now consider that the game I work on is in the bug fixing stage (so its finsihed, now they are polishing it), Warframe on the other hand is not a content complete game. They are still adding new content (in all forms, levels, weapons, warframes, features, etc etc), they will not be on bugs 100%, and thus minor animation issues are going to be left for now.

This is simply the most efficient way to do it, if the whole production line for a department (so animation in this case) stops to fix the minor bugs (also remember that fixing these things are not 5 min jobs) then they would never actually get new content done for a long time.

 

No its not perfect, no its not even great as such, but again you are playing a content incomplete game which is still in the process of being made, balanced and fixed.

[Solanius]

[Keetsune]

The game is in Beta, they let US test it and give feedback, then they fix what we say is wrong.

Dont forget that they let us pay for tests

[gaurdianaq]

I question your use of the word offended, you're getting offended by some of the animation bugs as if you feel you are entitled to it and go on to say we deserve better? We don't deserve anything, it's not a right to be able to play this game it's a privilege, yes the devs need to keep the fans happy to keep sales up and such but we're not entitled to anything. And as it stands right now we're the second round of QA.

[NoirProxy]

 I think you missed the point there. Yes they've had loads of chances, just like every dev team ever when it comes to bugs. Doesn't stop them existing. Just to make this clear, on my job there is a level which is considered content complete (aka finished, playable nothing really wrong with it). There are still 1000+ bugs in the bug database for that level. 

Now consider that the game I work on is in the bug fixing stage (so its finsihed, now they are polishing it), Warframe on the other hand is not a content complete game. They are still adding new content (in all forms, levels, weapons, warframes, features, etc etc), they will not be on bugs 100%, and thus minor animation issues are going to be left for now.

This is simply the most efficient way to do it, if the whole production line for a department (so animation in this case) stops to fix the minor bugs (also remember that fixing these things are not 5 min jobs) then they would never actually get new content done for a long time.

 

No its not perfect, no its not even great as such, but again you are playing a content incomplete game which is still in the process of being made, balanced and fixed.

In my opinion leaving animation problems for later isn't right in my book. When I say they have had lots of chance I mean they have been doing this game for a while. I am not implying some kind of ban hammer is forced upon them but when they have been asked to fix things they have always kind of gone "...We will look into it at some point, BUT RIGHT NOW WE WANT TO WORK ON THIS GIGA DRILL 5000 SWORD OF DESTRUCTION!" you don't need to look into it, you can see it instantly from just a short, brief glance.

 

Dont forget that they let us pay for tests

:p

 

I question your use of the word offended, you're getting offended by some of the animation bugs as if you feel you are entitled to it and go on to say we deserve better? We don't deserve anything, it's not a right to be able to play this game it's a privilege, yes the devs need to keep the fans happy to keep sales up and such but we're not entitled to anything. And as it stands right now we're the second round of QA.

I didn't realise you could delve into my own mind and body and make me feel entitled or atleast think I am coming off as entitled. What exactly am I saying I am entitled to? Quality? Well yeah of course if you think of it that way because they are selling a product but the products within that product aren't been given the development time to be an inticing purchase on release.

 

As I said I didn't pay for it, I forged it. I am not even asking for a refund, I am saying that from putting the weapon on it is obviously broken in appearance at first glance and I think to someone who might buy this will then go "Well now I just look stupid". Yeah I also don't have to fight your battles either and don't at all feel obligated to, but at the end of the day when it comes to quality vs quantity I would rather go with quality.

[gaurdianaq]

^ Don't get me wrong I agree with you that some stuff like the way you hold the kunai while sprinting looks stupid and needs to be fixed at some point, but as others have said I feel like small animation fixes like that are of less importance at the moment as other stuff like making dojos viable for small clans.

[NoirProxy]

^ Don't get me wrong I agree with you that some stuff like the way you hold the kunai while sprinting looks stupid and needs to be fixed at some point, but as others have said I feel like small animation fixes like that are of less importance at the moment as other stuff like making dojos viable for small clans.

 

I totally understand that some may feel it is less important to them and more power to you! It's just one of those things I guess. Like I don't even want to use them because they are basically hovering off the character's body. Doesn't look good, or right and it just makes using them and feeling cool when using them a non-existant desire.

[ScorpDK]

-ehem-

 

 

What's this?! *face closes in on the monitor* is that...WHAT... THE FIST WEAPON. DOESN'T ALIGN. WITH. MY. FIIIIST!?!?!

*smashes keyboard violently while screaming*

WHAT IS THIS!? I DESERVE BETTER THAN THIS!! ALL MY TIME. ALL MY MONEY!!!

I! *slams chest* AM YOUR FUUUTUUUREEEE!!! YOU ARE NOTHING WITHOUT ME!!! FIX THIS SH*T RIGHT THE F*CK NOW!!!

 

- meanwhile, at DE -

"Okay, Kogake model exported and ready to attach"

"...hmmm, it's not sitting quite right on some frames' fists"

"Uhhh, lemme just... move the attachment point around and re-export it"

"nawww, it's friday and almost 17:00, we'll fix this next week"

 

- back at angry poster's place, a burning building is seen, with a guy covered in blood and ritual markings carved into his flesh with a toenail clipper, wildly running about his yard -

 

 

Keep calm and beta on.

Edited July 2, 2013 by ScorpDK

[Dolomaticus]

Thank you Scorp :)

[InsomniacOvrLrd]

I for one do not appreciate DE dumping clearly graphically broken, unready weapons out for sale.

"BUY THIS NEW CRAP, WE GOT A CONTEST!".

[MrHeartless]

Ok, I see a growing trend here, and I think it should addressed in a very concise and honest manner. Let it be said though, that I have alot of respect for DE and want nothing more than to see this game grow from strength to strength. Having said that hear goes:

 

"This is Beta"- I hear this argument made time and time again and in some instances it is fine but in most cases it isnt. For the simple fact that, in the real world, just because a tag is placed on an item or article, does not mean that it is as stated. The subject matter must coincide with what is advertised otherwise there could be legal ramifications to those misrepresentations. However, as it relates to digital media and distribution, the laws are still very much obscured but it only takes one big case to bring the world's attention and the legislators' pens to bear on an emerging issue. To further explain what I mean, in contract law there is a latin term called 'consensus ad idem' i.e. the meeting of the minds and without this, no contract is enforceable in a court of law. Similarly, a lease agreement has to conform and encapsulate the main features of a lease or it matters not that its entitled "Lease Agreement", it will not be treated as such by a court. Also, the disclaimers that exist in the ToS would in fact give them some protection but, once again, they are charging real money for digital products and by virture of that fact, the landscape is changed considerably and different rules apply. If they decide they are not refunding platinum purchases one day or that their refund systems and bank infrastructure does not cooperate, there will be a riot and all this is Beta talk will be forgotten. Looking at the recent Neverwinter Debacle I would have thought persons would have learnt their lesson, beta is just a tag just as official release is just a tag. Many games have been released, riddled with bugs that were present from as early as Closed Beta.

 

As it relates to the topic itself, the issue is a small one, my only concern is that if this becomes the norm, it could lead to bad practices from our beloved DE, which would eventually hamper the game and its development. It is the principle involved, whether its big or small is not really important, it certainly cannot be harder to fix this over Wyrm's Crowd Dispersion skill but all things in time. A weapon released for money should be thoroughly checked regardless of whether it is easily craftable or not. We are here to find bugs they could not have found through normal checks and applications, not to pick up the pieces of shoddy workmanship. That is the point the OP was trying to make, not spew hate, blood and guts at the small but talented team at DE.

 

There is a difference, Warframe is free to play but the optional content they sell is not, this fact will not change once it is "Officially Released" and as such we cannot wait til it is "Officially Released" to remind them of the standards we expect. I played various games from CB to Release and one thing I've realised is that they will always be people trying to use the beta shield as an excuse. Unsurprisingly, when Neverwinter's AH went to hell over a bug we found in CB, the naysayers defending  it because of Cryptic's tag were the first ones to cower in a corner. Just be wary of what you choose to believe and how much lee-way you give to your favourite companies.

[Mietz]

The game is in Beta, they let US test it and give feedback, then they fix what we say is wrong.

 

So why do i have to pay for S#&$ to "test" it?

If we are really beta testers all of the tools should be free for us to test in unlimited quantities. The RM store shouldn't exist.

 

Don't be daft, we aren't beta testers, this isn't a beta. DE isn't somehow benevolent.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Mietz

[Kielix7]

So why do i have to pay for S#&$ to "test" it?

If we are really beta testers all of the tools should be free for us to test in unlimited quantities. The RM store shouldn't exist.

 

Don't be daft, we aren't beta testers, this isn't a beta. DE isn't somehow benevolent.

 

Then by your standards, the only game ever to have a real test "beta" that I could think of is World of Warcraft's Public Test realm, where you spawn infinite amounts of items.

 

Here's some games with beta releases that aren't up to "your standards." of a beta:

 

Warframe

GW2

FF14

Counter Strike: Source

Diablo 3

 

FEATURE COMPLETE: A feature complete version of a software is an advanced version, which contains all the intended fucntionality of the final version, however is not yet final due to bugs, performance, or stability issues.

 

Sound familiar?

 

Again, you paying for something in this game with real money is no one's concern but your own. They give you the option of buying items when you can play the game and get them yourself normally. Now stop complaining about a game in BETA, and go sit in the corner, you child.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Kielix7

[Garto]

 

Above is a diagram depicting the software development life cycle. The diagram explains a crucial part of a software's life cycle, that step 5, stage & test is where beta normally happens. Normally, before a software is released, it undergoes tremendous amounts of testing in order to reach step 6, which is release to the general public. For DE's case, they choose to release the content on step 5, for a particular reason, because it's faster for it to reach the public without taking too much development time which is a dire thing for most f2p games in the market (wouldn't you complain if there weren't that frequent updates?)

 

Second, by releasing the content earlier, the public are going through the task of becoming a tester. This way, it is easier to collect data as the data sample size is tremendous; basically your whole community is working on it. As an earlier poster said, this game is still in beta and will be for some time. This is a current trend of current day gaming. I believed the idea spawned off smaller indie games and was made famous by minecraft by mojang. In the current iteration, by making a game beta, it is easier for the developers to release content much quicker compared to the past where it must undergo weeks of testing before release, and by then, the hype for the game has been significantly lost by most of the public. tl;dr: you are a tester and you have understood the terms and conditions by accepting/downloading the game.

 

Third, by testing a game, developers are able to quickly heed feedback and fix bugs/animations. DE is no exception, in fact, they are doing a marvelous job at fixing bugs/adding in animations at every iteration. The fact that they read forums posts as compared to other developers who do not read the forums at all is simply amazing. In the current iteration didn't they even recently made the animations for climbing up ledges smoother?

 

Lastly, developers feedback. Normally, most developers shun this as experiences the public have are considered very subjective. However, DE is doing a good job by putting up live streams very often. There will be one later, and it's regarding animations as well, so your concerns might be brought up there.

 

In conclusion, beta is a work in progress, and most games adopt this trend to release content quicker out to the masses. It is a good thing, and it does not mean that the quality is compromised either. Your feedback will improve the game further.

 

Thank you for reading and hope it brings light to you on how a software development is handled generally.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Garto

[Mietz]

Then by your standards, the only game ever to have a real test "beta" that I could think of is World of Warcraft's Public Test realm, where you spawn infinite amounts of items.

 

Here's some games with beta releases that aren't up to "your standards." of a beta:

 

Warframe

GW2

FF14

Counter Strike: Source

Diablo 3

 

.

 

FEATURE COMPLETE: A feature complete version of a software is an advanced version, which contains all the intended functionality of the final version, however is not yet final due to bugs, performance, or stability issues.

 

Sound familiar? Now quit complaining about the functionality of a game in BETA, you child.

 

I don't complain about the functionality you moron, I question the applicability of the term BETA for a service that uses RM transactions.

We aren't testers, if we were, there wouldn't be a RM store.

 

And I don't care how many other games try to woo you into thinking they are a beta when they are not.

 

Besides WF -ISN'T- Feature Complete because we still are getting content and features released on a regular basis. QED the Dojo and soon the level designer.

[Kielix7]

I don't complain about the functionality you moron, I question the applicability of the term BETA for a service that uses RM transactions.

We aren't testers, if we were, there wouldn't be a RM store.

 

And I don't care how many other games try to woo you into thinking they are a beta when they are not.

 

Besides WF -ISN'T- Feature Complete because we still are getting content and features released on a regular basis. QED the Dojo and soon the level designer.

 

Except for the fact that Diablo 3's beta used RMT. You apparently still cannot grasp the fact that you can use your own money however you choose. No one is forcing you to pay for content. This game is not a finished product, and neither is what they are pumping out. They are "feature complete", because they MOSTLY work as intended, but still have bugs like the OP was concerned about, such as Kogake not fitting properly on player models.

 

If you aren't going to at least admit you're being ignorant and recognizing what the dictionary definitions of the term "beta" and "feature complete" mean, there really isn't a point in debating with you any further.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Kielix7

[NoirProxy]

As many have said, please do not put a BETA tag on everything in the game when it is not the kind of BETA you are thinking of. A lot of the unfinished stuff they are putting out is in the closed beta area. Try not to let a word fool you about the stage that the game is in. For all we know Warframe could sit in BETA for the rest of its life like PS Home does and so many other types of games, social or not.

 

In a way it is a way of saying "The game never ends, we will add content onto the core game constantly" Which is obviously great as it means you potentially have a never dying game on your hands BUT with constantly added content comes quality in that content. I have a feeling a lot of people here defending the developer don't really understand what a bug really is but that is understandable.

 

 

Ok, I see a growing trend here, and I think it should addressed in a very concise and honest manner. Let it be said though, that I have alot of respect for DE and want nothing more than to see this game grow from strength to strength. Having said that hear goes:

 

"This is Beta"- I hear this argument made time and time again and in some instances it is fine but in most cases it isnt. For the simple fact that, in the real world, just because a tag is placed on an item or article, does not mean that it is as stated. The subject matter must coincide with what is advertised otherwise there could be legal ramifications to those misrepresentations. However, as it relates to digital media and distribution, the laws are still very much obscured but it only takes one big case to bring the world's attention and the legislators' pens to bear on an emerging issue. To further explain what I mean, in contract law there is a latin term called 'consensus ad idem' i.e. the meeting of the minds and without this, no contract is enforceable in a court of law. Similarly, a lease agreement has to conform and encapsulate the main features of a lease or it matters not that its entitled "Lease Agreement", it will not be treated as such by a court. Also, the disclaimers that exist in the ToS would in fact give them some protection but, once again, they are charging real money for digital products and by virture of that fact, the landscape is changed considerably and different rules apply. If they decide they are not refunding platinum purchases one day or that their refund systems and bank infrastructure does not cooperate, there will be a riot and all this is Beta talk will be forgotten. Looking at the recent Neverwinter Debacle I would have thought persons would have learnt their lesson, beta is just a tag just as official release is just a tag. Many games have been released, riddled with bugs that were present from as early as Closed Beta.

 

As it relates to the topic itself, the issue is a small one, my only concern is that if this becomes the norm, it could lead to bad practices from our beloved DE, which would eventually hamper the game and its development. It is the principle involved, whether its big or small is not really important, it certainly cannot be harder to fix this over Wyrm's Crowd Dispersion skill but all things in time. A weapon released for money should be thoroughly checked regardless of whether it is easily craftable or not. We are here to find bugs they could not have found through normal checks and applications, not to pick up the pieces of shoddy workmanship. That is the point the OP was trying to make, not spew hate, blood and guts at the small but talented team at DE.

 

There is a difference, Warframe is free to play but the optional content they sell is not, this fact will not change once it is "Officially Released" and as such we cannot wait til it is "Officially Released" to remind them of the standards we expect. I played various games from CB to Release and one thing I've realised is that they will always be people trying to use the beta shield as an excuse. Unsurprisingly, when Neverwinter's AH went to hell over a bug we found in CB, the naysayers defending  it because of Cryptic's tag were the first ones to cower in a corner. Just be wary of what you choose to believe and how much lee-way you give to your favourite companies.

 

Very intelligent post thank you :)

 

 

Above is a diagram depicting the software development life cycle. The diagram explains a crucial part of a software's life cycle, that step 5, stage & test is where beta normally happens. Normally, before a software is released, it undergoes tremendous amounts of testing in order to reach step 6, which is release to the general public. For DE's case, they choose to release the content on step 5, for a particular reason, because it's faster for it to reach the public without taking too much development time which is a dire thing for most f2p games in the market (wouldn't you complain if there weren't that frequent updates?)

 

Second, by releasing the content earlier, the public are going through the task of becoming a tester. This way, it is easier to collect data as the data sample size is tremendous; basically your whole community is working on it. As an earlier poster said, this game is still in beta and will be for some time. This is a current trend of current day gaming. I believed the idea spawned off smaller indie games and was made famous by minecraft by mojang. In the current iteration, by making a game beta, it is easier for the developers to release content much quicker compared to the past where it must undergo weeks of testing before release, and by then, the hype for the game has been significantly lost by most of the public. tl;dr: you are a tester and you have understood the terms and conditions by accepting/downloading the game.

 

Third, by testing a game, developers are able to quickly heed feedback and fix bugs/animations. DE is no exception, in fact, they are doing a marvelous job at fixing bugs/adding in animations at every iteration. The fact that they read forums posts as compared to other developers who do not read the forums at all is simply amazing. In the current iteration didn't they even recently made the animations for climbing up ledges smoother?

 

Lastly, developers feedback. Normally, most developers shun this as experiences the public have are considered very subjective. However, DE is doing a good job by putting up live streams very often. There will be one later, and it's regarding animations as well, so your concerns might be brought up there.

 

In conclusion, beta is a work in progress, and most games adopt this trend to release content quicker out to the masses. It is a good thing, and it does not mean that the quality is compromised either. Your feedback will improve the game further.

 

Thank you for reading and hope it brings light to you on how a software development is handled generally.

 

I think your post is very truthful but I think that is more based on a gameplay area more than a in your face visual one. If no one complained they might not even change it. I don't think you need user feedback to see what the problem is here. You just need a pair of eyes and the enthusiasm to finish what you have started.

Edited July 3, 2013 by NoirProxy