The Relic System is a Step Backwards.

[Max_AKC]

There probably have been many threads on this subject, but the search function only shows results from the most recent threads and searches your words individually and not as a whole; i can't find another thread on this subject. My guess is the main uproar occurred just after the relic system was implemented and now most of those threads are lost in the void. Anyway, the point i'm trying to make is that DE's goal was to improve on the RNG of farming prime parts, that was their goal. What we've ended up with is RNG that is just as bad if not worse; it's now even harder to get prime parts. I upgraded my relics to radiant in hopes of getting the Nekros Prime BP and Galatine Prime BP, which were no where to be seen. So you put a lot of effort into upgrading your relics for nothing. It costs more time, it's even harder to get the prime parts you're looking for than it used to be, and farming prime parts is now 200% less fun than it used to be. I'm not sure if we can all agree, but i for one feel that there is no fun in using the relic system at all. The old void system was repetitive, but at least it was fun and it took a long a long time to get say, the Nikana Prime Blade but it least it was obtainable. Now, it seems that basically the only way to get the new prime parts is to buy the Prime Access.. then again, maybe that's the whole point?

Warframe is in a state of being polished to a mirror shine, which is nice. But i personally think the more polished it gets, the more soul-less it becomes. Having said that, DE did a fantastic job on The War Within, i was really impressed with that quest. Hopefully they'll make it replayable as they did with the Second Dream.

All in all, i have my feeble hopes that DE will one day scrap the unfun relic system and return to the old school. Here's hoping..

[TheSketchDevice]

I guess you've had bad experiences with relics but honestly for me, I've had much better luck getting the prime parts I need with the new system.

[Max_AKC]

I got Ash Prime BP very easily with the relic system, while it seemed impossible with the old system. As for the new prime parts, Nekros and Galatine etc, it is much worse than the old system. I just find it really messed up that DE revamped the entire system of farming prime parts, with the goal of improving the RNG, only to miss the mark and make it much, much less fun to play in the process. If it ain't broke, don't fix it

[Raniu]

It's not only about RNG.

The old void system had prime parts drop on given rotations of endless missions. For example, you could only find a Booben P chassis blueprint on T4 Defense's rotation C, that's wave 20, 40, 60 and so on.

Now you can open a relic every 5 waves. You can even open them on different missions.

2 minutes ago, SpiralViper said:

much less fun to play in the process

I dunno. Void was all about fighting the same faction in the same mission type in the same tileset over and over again.

The new system is about playing different missions in different tilesets and against different factions. You can also get the 'keys' while opening a relic for prime part. And a mission reward on top of that.

The system is just so much better that it's freakin obvious. You really must have had some bad luck :p

[StinkyPygmy]

Just sounds like bad luck homie. The RNG tends to be 100% better. The reason you haven't found many threads about it is because only a handful of people seem to think the relic system is worse.

[Borg1611]

Their stated goals I think are often intentionally deceptive. We're seeing it again with the new Riven mod disaster. 

Relics definitely seem to make it harder to go after the newest releases, which is likely their real intent. They probably thought it would increase prime access sales. 

When you go through multiple radiant relics and get the lowest quality items in the list every time, you can't help but feel the trace/upgrade system is nothing but an illusion to make you feel you have more control at targeting specific items and fighting RNG, when in reality they gave us worse RNG than we had in the old tower system. Worse RNG on top of having to farm new relics from scratch, where we could have had plenty of keys for the new parts already in the old system. 

edit: Though, I do agree the new system has more variety at least. 

edit2: The new system also heavily favors organized group farming, so solo players or even smaller groups are at a significant disadvantage. I don't know if that's more or less of an advantage than sharing keys though /shrug. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Borg1611

[Trittium00]

I'm sorry to say this, and I certainly don't want to invalidate the experience you seem to have had, bit it simply sounds like you've just had a terrible run of luck.

To blame this on the relic system, I believe is not correct. Although I can see that it can feel good!

Statistically speaking, the odds of getting rare prime part from a radiant relic share with 4 people is about 33%. Which means that statistically speaking it could be expected to take 3 radiant runs for a rare. Note that this doesn't guarantee the outcome you want, but on the whole those are the numbers.

These odds are FAR better than the old system. So blaming the relic system for a string of bad luck is not right.

Look I do get it. I myself had a terrible run the other week where I opened 8 radiants in full 4 man shares in a row - and got no rare part! I was pretty disappointed but sadly that's how it goes sometimes. I didn't blame the system because I know that the 33% chance is there. I just got really unlucky, much like yourself.

[Max_AKC]

Thanks Borg, i completely agree. On one hand yes, DE need to make enough money to keep their studio running and keep working on this great game. On another, perhaps they have truck-tons of money (we'll never know). But one thing is for certain, they design new systems around making for money from sales. Whether or not they're just being greedy can't be confirmed, i guess. I've sunk quite a bit of cash into the game, and i don't regret it, but perhaps it's time to stop doing that..

[Trittium00]

4 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

an illusion to make you feel you have more control at targeting specific items and fighting RNG, when in reality they gave us worse RNG than we had in the old tower system

Sorry but I believe this is simply not correct.

Sure you now have to obtain the specific relic you want, but once you have it you can refine and do radiant shares to your hearts content. Doing so brings the chance of a rare up to 33% per 4 man radiant share.

These are significantly better odds and allow you to target specific parts much better than the previous system. This is reflected in the greatly reduced plat prices of prime parts since Specters of the Rail.

[Borg1611]

Just now, Trittium00 said:

Sorry but I believe this is simply not correct.

Sure you now have to obtain the specific relic you want, but once you have it you can refine and do radiant shares to your hearts content. Doing so brings the chance of a rare up to 33% per 4 man radiant share.

These are significantly better odds and allow you to target specific parts much better than the previous system. This is reflected in the greatly reduced plat prices of prime parts since Specters of the Rail.

You keep pointing out the odds of a 4 man radiant share as if all players playing the game do that. That assumption is simply not correct. 

There are also quite a large number of relics, so depending on what they happened to stick new parts on when they came out and what your key stockpile looked like, you may have had a decent number ready to go the day the patch hit. Now you may need to spend hours of relic farming just to get a few shots at your item. You then need to farm traces to upgrade those relics, and if you're not doing 4 man radiant shares, your chances don't appear to be that great (not that 33% is something to write home about when you consider the multiple farming chores you now have to do on top of having to play in an organized 4 man group just to get them that high). 

[StinkyPygmy]

16 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Their stated goals I think are often intentionally deceptive. We're seeing it again with the new Riven mod disaster. 

Relics definitely seem to make it harder to go after the newest releases, which is likely their real intent. They probably thought it would increase prime access sales. 

When you go through multiple radiant relics and get the lowest quality items in the list every time, you can't help but feel the trace/upgrade system is nothing but an illusion to make you feel you have more control at targeting specific items and fighting RNG, when in reality they gave us worse RNG than we had in the old tower system. Worse RNG on top of having to farm new relics from scratch, where we could have had plenty of keys for the new parts already in the old system. 

edit: Though, I do agree the new system has more variety at least. 

edit2: The new system also heavily favors organized group farming, so solo players or even smaller groups are at a significant disadvantage. I don't know if that's more or less of an advantage than sharing keys though /shrug. 

So its tinfoil hat time, eh?

[BBOTAA]

2 minutes ago, Trittium00 said:

Sorry but I believe this is simply not correct.

Sure you now have to obtain the specific relic you want, but once you have it you can refine and do radiant shares to your hearts content. Doing so brings the chance of a rare up to 33% per 4 man radiant share.

These are significantly better odds and allow you to target specific parts much better than the previous system. This is reflected in the greatly reduced plat prices of prime parts since Specters of the Rail.

I say its rigged like it was, I did 19 radiant runs with 3 other people to get my galatine part.
And if the rng because of some condition doesn't give you the part it won't do on this or the other system that was b4.
On the wiki it's says something like 7 runs give you 99.03% or something close to that to get the part you want, now you do the math,I did 19,plus runs for the relics, plus runs for the traces. Do the math pls.
I never spent so much on any system, or other game to get a SINGLE part of a thing.
And on my opinion the relic system took away the freedom people had to choose the type of missions they wanted to play, ok it's not corrupted enemies only, and not the same tilesets,but more important for me then that is the mission type I enjoy wich i can't choose.
And many times you'll have 4 fissure available, sometimes you won't have one available for specific tier of relic,sometimes you'll have repeated types of missions, it isn't better in my opinion, it is not even good.

[Trittium00]

2 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

You keep pointing out the odds of a 4 man radiant share as if all players playing the game do that. That assumption is simply not correct. 

Alright that's a point. But I ask you this, what's stopping someone from joining in a radiant relic share?

It's really not that difficult to go in trade and look for others running the same relic. Sure it might require a little bit of work putting the squad together, but if it saves you significant time in the long run, why wouldn't you do it?

I'm sorry that people have bad luck, but I dont agree with people coming into the forums moaning about how hard it is when they ignore simple ways to drastically improve their odds, such as radiant shares.

The system was built with this in mind, so if you don't use it then that's not the fault of the system.

[Trittium00]

3 minutes ago, BBOTAA said:

now you do the math,I did 19,plus runs for the relics, plus runs for the traces. Do the math pls.

Sounds like you had a pretty shocking experience, but I'm not going to do your math homework for you :P.

Seriously though, yeah you absolutely had a terrible run of luck. Like I said, I've been there too. Did 8 radiant shares in a row and got no rares myself. It was statisticslly unlikely for that to happen, but it's absolutely possible.

Your experience sounds like it was far worse, but again it's statistically possible (albeit very slim). You just got really bloody unlucky man, it's hardly 'rigged' as you say.

[BBOTAA]

Just now, Trittium00 said:

Alright that's a point. But I ask you this, what's stopping someone from joining in a radiant relic share?

It's really not that difficult to go in trade and look for others running the same relic. Sure it might require a little bit of work putting the squad together, but if it saves you significant time in the long run, why wouldn't you do it?

I'm sorry that people have bad luck, but I dont agree with people coming into the forums moaning about how hard it is when they ignore simple ways to drastically improve their odds, such as radiant shares.

The system was built with this in mind, so if you don't use it then that's not the fault of the system.

What part of 19 radiant runs with other 3 persons you didn't understand? So I can answer you properly please read what I said before answering.
And I'm sharing my experience with you, and I can tell you, I farmed all primes that were available on the old system, and never took me so long to acquire anything or so much effort that drove me off the game.
I can even tell you the part that took me the most time get in the old system, wich was a carrier part not totally sure if it was carapace, but i think it was, and i took me 103 Ext t3 runs. Do the math like i told and see how many runs i did to get the galatine part.

[Borg1611]

4 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

So its tinfoil hat time, eh?

It would be extremely naive of anyone to assume there's no financial motivation behind many design choices in free to play games. 

You really think the massive RNG in the Riven system had nothing to do with getting people to spend hundreds of plat on godlike rolls, as we have already seen is happening? DE just doesn't even take that kind of thing into consideration? They had no idea the massive RNGfest mods they allowed to be traded would be traded for large amounts of plat?

As far as the relic system is concerned, it can easily take more time to farm new releases than the tower system as you always have to start fresh when something new is released. I'm sorry that you think you have to be a crazy conspiracy theorist to not add 1+1 and realize that was an intentional nerf in prime part farming, but it's just an obvious reality that's pretty easy to figure out. 

2 minutes ago, Trittium00 said:

Alright that's a point. But I ask you this, what's stopping someone from joining in a radiant relic share?

It's really not that difficult to go in trade and look for others running the same relic. Sure it might require a little bit of work putting the squad together, but if it saves you significant time in the long run, why wouldn't you do it?

I'm sorry that people have bad luck, but I dont agree with people coming into the forums moaning about how hard it is when they ignore simple ways to drastically improve their odds, such as radiant shares.

The system was built with this in mind, so if you don't use it then that's not the fault of the system.

Because we don't want to? I never did 4 man key shares in the tower system and didn't have much of an issue farming things that had just come out. I did them solo or in a group of 2 for the most part. 

Now if I do that same thing in the relic system I'm very likely at a much bigger disadvantage when new content is released compared to before because we never get ahead via normal gameplay as we did with tower keys. Every time something new comes out, the only thing you might already have are some traces, but you have to start the relic farm from scratch. That alone is a huge nerf to being able to farm newly released content, and it was an obvious intentional nerf. 

It's not necessarily that big of an issue since the only things I really care about are the new things, so if I actually feel like playing warframe I don't have much else to do besides farm relics or doing a daily sortie, but I agree with the original posters perspective in that I feel like the new system was not an improvement for me personally in terms of how long it takes me to farm a new release. 

It does potentially give you more options in the type of content you're running, or at least you're running that same content on a wider variety of random maps, but I don't think it shortened the amount of time it takes me to get something new. I actually find it increases that time more often than not when playing the same way I always have. 

[Trittium00]

1 minute ago, BBOTAA said:

What part of 19 radiant runs with other 3 persons you didn't understand? So I can answer you properly please read what I said before answering.

Sorry BBTOAA, as you'll note I wasn't responding to you in the post you quoted. I responded to you in a separate post after I wrote the one which you are quoting.

So chill out a little, alright?

[ranks21]

they'll never agree that the relic system is utter crap ( some ppl should stay in school)

i'd have to be very desperate to even chose this ( relic system) over the old key system... sure I played 1 (one) complete cycle then upgraded to a specific tier/rarity/relic whatever its called<< basically time wasted, joined a group after >> time wasted searching and waiting>>  only to be greeted with what I already knew. all that time plus work wasted for a forma bp even though it was a group of 4  same relic whatever so 33% of landing that part we were going for... like many things in this game, it sounds good and looks good on paper but its utter crapS#&amp;&#036; in reality and experience.

for me it's once bitten twice shy, if they say (DE) that this will be better and the grind lower<< prove yourself and stop yapping those days have long gone.

[Trittium00]

1 minute ago, Borg1611 said:

Because we don't want to?

So you're ignoring ways to dramatically improve your odds by playing with other people in a team based game and then moaning that the system is rigged? I'm sorry but if this is the way you feel then no rational argument from me well change your mind. It appears to be already made up.

Besides, in the old system to get the most out of keys you needed to go deeper into endless type missions. How did you go about doing that without playing with others?

[(XBOX)ATLongshot]

The relic system is better for the greater number of people.  Most pple can't spend hours grinding hoping for that magic rotation.  In the old system I didn't stand a chance, bc of life I only get a few hrs here and there to play.  In the new relic system I'm a blueprint away from my first prime frame, after almost a year of playing.  

 

That makes me feel awesome.  I bet I'm not the only one. 

[BBOTAA]

2 minutes ago, Trittium00 said:

Sorry BBTOAA, as you'll note I wasn't responding to you in the post you quoted. I responded to you in a separate post after I wrote the one which you are quoting.

So chill out a little, alright?

Sorry. only noticed now when I scrolled back.
Altough there's nothing to be chill about, since I wasn't rude, just a little missunderstanding don't take it personally, and anyway that doesn't invalidate the point I made.

[GovernmentSecrets.gov]

I've had a lot more luck than I used too, I've gotten several sets without even trying. I used to hate the relic system but after getting used to it I definitely prefer it. As a solo player this system has helped me a lot.

Edited November 17, 2016 by GenerationX3

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

The new system is arguably better in most regards asides from relic consumption.

The fact every player uses a key, and must use keys every five waves/five minutes, makes it more expensive than it was in the past.

That said, the fact you get a choice between four rewards really helps your RNG, plus the fact you can skewer the RNG up by refining your relics and setting groups of people with radiants.

My only issue with the system is the fact new primes come with new relics , forcing some relic farming whenever new update drops... That's the big issue, that's mildly alleviated by stockpiling your Syndicate rep and buying Relic packs once new relics enter the drop table... But still , wish we didn't have to farm new relics with each update... That adds to the tedium of it all.

If you spend time in the trade chat, you'll notice prime prices have dropped tremendously since the implementation of the new void system... Before, I could sell full sets for like 100-120 plat, nowadays, I'm lucky if I can sell a full retired prime set like Nyx for 60 plat... So it seems like people have an easyer time getting what they want and as such, prices go down.

Edited November 17, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[BBOTAA]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

The new system is arguably better in most regards asides from relic consumption.

The fact every player uses a key, and must use keys every five waves/five minutes, makes it more expensive than it was in the past.

That said, the fact you get a choice between four rewards really helps your RNG, plus the fact you can skewer the RNG up by refining your relics and setting groups of people with radiants.

My only issue with the system is the fact new primes come with new relics , forcing some relic farming whenever new update drops... That's the big issue, that's mildly alleviated by stockpiling your Syndicate rep and buying Relic packs once new relics enter the drop table.

If you spend time in the trade chat, you'll notice prime prices have dropped tremendously since the implementation of the new void system... Before, I could sell full sets for like 100-120 plat, nowadays, I'm lucky if I can sell a full prime for 60 plat... So it seems like people have an easyer time getting what they want and as such, prices go down.

Well another important thing was the change in rarity on most of the parts, throwing off the balance there was in the market, for ex. The most valuable part for ash was his blueprint, wich got the rarity changed to uncommon, lowering the price of the part, let's say about half at that moment, now more with more people acquiring it obviously.
And the other parts that were turned into rarer drops didn't get a similar effect on price alteration, didn't go up half the price it was previously, and this happened with almost all sets making everything even more cheap.
Wich was one more thing the relic system destroyed.
 

[Borg1611]

1 minute ago, Trittium00 said:

So you're ignoring ways to dramatically improve your odds by playing with other people in a team based game and then moaning that the system is rigged? I'm sorry but if this is the way you feel then no rational argument from me well change your mind. It appears to be already made up.

Besides, in the old system to get the most out of keys you needed to go deeper into endless type missions. How did you go about doing that without playing with others?

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm telling you that I play the game a certain way and that before the relic system it was easier for me to farm new releases than it is now. It's not uncommon in games like this to make group play dramatically more efficient than solo play. Blizzard made that mistake to exponential levels in D3, but I've never felt like dramatic gaps in solo vs. group efficiency were a good thing in games like this that very easily work as solo games. This is not an MMO. Most of its players don't want to be forced into groups of any particular size. 

I think you'll find there are probably far more solo and small group players playing Warframe than those organizing radiant shares in chat. It's not really a game I play to play in groups. I do some things in public groups just because they're too awful to do solo (like leveling the same frame/weapon multiple times). 

I'm not opposed to forming groups in any games ever, I do it in MMOs like WoW all the time when I'm actually playing them, that's just never what this game has been for me. It also has extremely sub-par social features, so I don't think you can really argue it's a strong group based game compared to games with much better social features. Their attempt to force people to raid by hiding arcanes in that content has mostly failed. There are far more players that don't do trials than those who do. You can't force the game to be something the majority of its players don't wish it to be. If they added a pre-made group finder system like WoW did in WoD (and it's very useful/popular in Legion to form mythic groups) there would probably be a decent increase in people participating in more organized content (since that tool is dramatically superior than the archaic chat spam), but even then some people just don't want to and shouldn't have to. 

DE would actually be smart to improve the solo experience in this game. Things like terrible spawn rates in solo mode and the dramatic difference in farming efficiency doesn't help them keep solo or smaller group players (of which there are probably many) around. 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

If you spend time in the trade chat, you'll notice prime prices have dropped tremendously since the implementation of the new void system... Before, I could sell full sets for like 100-120 plat, nowadays, I'm lucky if I can sell a full retired prime set like Nyx for 60 plat... So it seems like people have an easyer time getting what they want and as such, prices go down.

That's only really a sign that they made old parts easier to get, I think most people's issue with relics is just new releases. I sell all the old ones I already have for ducats myself since I don't really trade much.