(Spoilers)Riven Mods: What Warframe Needed

[Prosamis]

Many have debated how good or bad riven mods are, some said that the RNG in the system is too unrewarding and that DE should just buff older weapons, other said that it brings diversity and a good sense of progression. The main question is, how good is the riven mod system? Even if it has many flaws, the concept of riven mods is the change warframe needed to see.

The Excitement of Looting:

Before we go to numbers, pros, and cons, we should look at some of the game's core concepts. The game is basically a fast paced loot-based shooter(with many other categories) but looting slowly loses its taste after you simply go to the wiki to see all the mods' effects and it becomes a long grind of either you get it or not. Concepts like Baro Ki'teer and stalker(and the 2 other assassins) added some flavor to obtaining unanticipated, and generally great, loot. Riven mods do EXACTLY that, they add a lot of excitement to the looting in the game where everyday, you have a chance to get a riven mod from a sortie, and what riven mod contains is always unexpected. A lot of cool mixtures of stats can rise up from riven mods to specific weapons and there's both the extreme satisfaction of obtaining that perfect roll, or the utter disappointment from getting a bad roll. And let's be real, if there's no disappointing outcome, it will turn into a more casual system that caters to the impatient; warframe is meant to be hardcore to a certain extent and thats why disappointing outcomes should always be a thing.

Progression:

Once you get the main set of corrupted mods, the basic mods, the physical set from baro ki'teer, some primed mods, and many other things like stances and augment mods, you probably achieved end game by then. But what is there to gather during late game? There are always raids, sorties, some high level content(like rathuum), and void relics, and all of that contribute to endgame, but how dull does it feel when your final build is complete with all the mods and formas you need? There's a point in the game when the progression curve starts converging to a limit, making new achievements not as impactful and you can only hope that next baro would give you that primed heavy impact for you War, or that next patch will have game changing mods. Riven mods heavily prolong the time it takes for your build to reach completion, and after adding secondary and melee riven mods, it will become nearly impossible to reach near maximum potential as riven mods always have a chance to give you a bad or low roll, some negative stats, or just not-as-useful stats. Yet again, this adds a lot of taste and flavor to looting and the sense of progression.

Flaws:

We all know that the riven mod system currently have many, and apparent, flaws but first, let's clear out some necessary ideas that people see as flaws, but arent. 

The challenge reroll system: This really isnt that bad, it's purpose is to not allow players to farm a lot of kuva then spam reroll your riven mods until they give you a perfect roll. Theyre supposed to have some form of time taking procedure to make the really good rolls harder and take more time to reach. Also, a reroll is supposed to be risky and you'll have to ask yourself:"is my riven mod not good enough and is the getting a worse roll that impactful?" If your riven mod is bad, you can reroll is quite easily and most of the time, you'll get somthing better out of it, but if you have a great set of stats but theyre just not high enough, the greed of wanting stronger stats is supposed to be "high risk, high reward". 

RNG: as explained earlier, the RNG's goods are better than the bads on the long run for the game, but there are some flaws to rng like getting stats that have 0 effect on your weapon, something thats not supposed to exist, stats are supposed to either benefit you or be a drawback(negative stats) not neutral.

The riven mod's flaws can be fixed though and the heavy rng factor can be leasened by some solutions. Personally the solution I would take is as follows: As the riven mod is unveiled, first the weapon is rolled not the weapon and the stats; after that, this weapon will have a specific set of mods that it CAN roll, a weapon with pure elemental damage shouldnt have +physical damage stats, and a weapon with less than 5% crit chance should have a very low chance to roll +crit chance or damage. In addition, more stats should be added to the rolls to better give diversity and stats with innate drawbacks should exist in my opinion(like the acolyte mods criteria which serve as a form of drawback) 

In conclusion, the riven mod system is one great potential, and with good feedback and pressure on DE(via constant questions which should be answered by livestrems) the riven mod system is guarenteed to be a system to stay. Thank you all who had the patience to read all of this, any feedback or criticism is welcome and appreciated.

[AdunSaveMe]

I'd argue there are a lot of changes Warframe needed more than this, but sure.

[Prosamis]

2 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I'd argue there are a lot of changes Warframe needed more than this, but sure.

Definitely, im just saying that riven mods is a big step in the right direction

[Landpaddle]

To some extent, Riven mods do encourage using less favored weapons for high-level players that are beyond the progression system, but on the other hand, the progression system itself needed an overhaul much more badly.

Think for instance that a weapon like the Kohm is MR2, the Tonkor is just MR5, and the Stradavar is MR8--the Stradavar being the worst scaling of the bunch. See also how the Twin Grakatas and Akmagnus are MR0, but the Akjagara are MR3 and have a colossal crafting tree; the Akjagara, too, are overall worse (not even considering the nauseating recoil) than the weapons which are available earlier and for less effort.

Weapons whose stats are outliers in a general line of progression still need tweaking (read: nerfs and/or buffs). DE cannot ignore those now that the Riven system is in place.

[AdunSaveMe]

17 minutes ago, Prosamis said:

Definitely, im just saying that riven mods is a big step in the right direction

The idea is a step in the right direction. The initial implementation was a disaster and they still have a long way to go.

But the changes were fast, and fair.

[Prosamis]

6 minutes ago, Landpaddle said:

To some extent, Riven mods do encourage using less favored weapons for high-level players that are beyond the progression system, but on the other hand, the progression system itself needed an overhaul much more badly.

Think for instance that a weapon like the Kohm is MR2, the Tonkor is just MR5, and the Stradavar is MR8--the Stradavar being the worst scaling of the bunch. See also how the Twin Grakatas and Akmagnus are MR0, but the Akjagara are MR3 and have a colossal crafting tree; the Akjagara, too, are overall worse (not even considering the nauseating recoil) than the weapons which are available earlier and for less effort.

Weapons whose stats are outliers in a general line of progression still need tweaking (read: nerfs and/or buffs). DE cannot ignore those now that the Riven system is in place.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, and i believe that DE should stop making new weapons for a period of time and focus on changing weapons, either by changing their stats or adding unique effects and potentially work on reaching damage 3.0 faster.

But when i was talking about riven mods i was mainly talking about how they contribute to progression and end game and exciting loot. Riven mods purpose isnt just to encourage the usage of old weapons as, exactly what you said, these old weapons must be overhauled and riven mods arent enough for that.

[Prosamis]

2 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

The idea is a step in the right direction. The initial implementation was a disaster and they still have a long way to go.

But the changes were fast, and fair.

I cant disagree with you there, the initial implentation was indeed horrific, but with enough fixes, riven mods should stay and not be deleted from the game. I want people to be aware that the concept is amazing and DE has the capacity to fix it, do you not agree?

[Volinus7]

The definition of "Long run" divided into 2.

First, A game that has absurd amount of balance [like chess for example] doesn't need any introduction of new equipments or items and people still enjoy it even many years passed.

Second, A game that keeps adding more powerful equipments and items for players to grind for. Eventually power of new stuffs will collapse on old stuffs and balance get destroyed. Sure you can keep players grind for forever but in the end loots are just loots which contribute nothing to gameplay and people will burn out and leave.

To me the excitement of looting is nothing more than an illusion of success once new stuffs render old stuffs obsolete in the first layer, the next layers of powercreep are just tower stacking game.

 

TBH what warframe needed is a good competitive mode either team or 1v1 which doesn't wipe your pve progression out and still be able to maintain balance. Conclave is a failure it just ignores 95% of your effort in the game which is PVE. If they balance PVE and PVP together we might see something more than a boring horde mode in PVE.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Volinus7

[Prosamis]

5 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

The definition of "Long run" divided into 2.

First, A game that has absurd amount of balance [like chess for example] doesn't need any introduction of new equipments or items and people still enjoy it even many years passed.

Second, A game that keeps adding more powerful equipments and items for players to grind for. Eventually power of new stuffs will collapse on old stuffs and balance get destroyed. Sure you can keep players grind for forever but in the end loots are just loots which contribute nothing to gameplay and people will burn out and leave.

To me the excitement of looting is nothing more than an illusion of success once new stuffs render old stuffs obsolete in the first layer, the next layers of powercreep are just tower stacking game.

I believe youre mixing between progression and balance; in a game like warframe or genres like MMO(rpgs especially) there will always be equipment that will be more powerful than the last; otherwise there will be no purpose or incentive to unlock new things. The balance is between the tiers of power of weapons and the difficulty of the game not between the tiers of weapons themselves. 

[Volinus7]

2 minutes ago, Prosamis said:

I believe youre mixing between progression and balance; in a game like warframe or genres like MMO(rpgs especially) there will always be equipment that will be more powerful than the last; otherwise there will be no purpose or incentive to unlock new things. The balance is between the tiers of power of weapons and the difficulty of the game not between the tiers of weapons themselves. 

I may now laugh at those people on this forum that said "WF doesn't need tiers" "WF doesn't have tiers".

[Prosamis]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

I may now laugh at those people on this forum that said "WF doesn't need tiers" "WF doesn't have tiers".

Of course warframe has tiers, very simply skana is in the lowest tiers and so is mk 1 paris. Its pretty obvious; no progression is possible without tiers and power differences.

[Volinus7]

The thing is WF tried to position itself in "a game you can come back anytime" like Destiny. That's why tower stacking is out of the question.

 

Tier is good when you have back end for it. It's meaningless if it goes to infinity tier.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Volinus7

[Prosamis]

17 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

The thing is WF tried to position itself in "a game you can come back anytime" like Destiny. That's why tower stacking is out of the question.

 

Tier is good when you have back end for it. It's meaningless if it goes to infinity tier.

Excuse me but I dont truely see whats meaningless about a game who's tiers keeps getting stronger; any mmorpg that lasts a long time has that concept. Progression should always be a thing if the game is to last a long time.

[Volinus7]

1 minute ago, Prosamis said:

Excuse me but I dont truely see whats meaningless about a game who's tiers keeps getting stronger; any mmorpg that lasts a long time has that concept. Progression should always be a thing if the game is to last a long time.

Let's see.... From my perspective... I didn't take a long hiatus from WF because I have nothing to progress or grind for. I left because gameplay literally ended for me as it lacked balance and depth. Then I came back to WF once in a while to enjoy the "gameplay" it offered.

If new equipments grow stronger and render my progression obsolete, will I come back to WF? NO...

If I want to play a game that tiers keep getting stronger, I'd rather play plenty of JMMORPG or KMMORPG out there which have monthly gear race that force you to grind 24/7 or pay money to keep up.

[Prosamis]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

Let's see.... From my perspective... I didn't take a long hiatus from WF because I have nothing to progress or grind for. I left because gameplay literally ended for me as it lacked balance and depth. Then I came back to WF once in a while to enjoy the "gameplay" it offered.

If new equipments grow stronger and render my progression obsolete, will I come back to WF? NO...

If I want to play a game that tiers keep getting stronger, I'd rather play plenty of JMMORPG or KMMORPG out there which have monthly gear race that force you to grind 24/7 or pay money to keep up.

Youre right, your equipment does get obselete, thats the point and thats the goal; youre supposed to keep up with the game's progression and people that quite for a long time should end up not being that strong, its only logical really. Lets put this in a real life perspective, in previous generations people used to use pigeons for mail, now people use the internet; did your previous method become obsolete? Yes, yes it did. Things in life advance and as they advance, old things become obsolete or get upgraded. Online RPGs mimic real life progression(at a much faster rate). If active progression isnt your thing then honestly, games like warframe aren't for you. In the end its preference and this is a game genre, if you dont like the genre then.. you simply dont like the genre, it doesnt mean its bad or broken, thats just perspective.

[Volinus7]

In summary, I play game for fun gameplay not for loots it offers. Loots should compliment gameplay not other way around otherwise it's just a cookie clicker game.

[Prosamis]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

In summary, I play game for fun gameplay not for loots it offers. Loots should compliment gameplay not other way around otherwise it's just a cookie clicker game.

Yes loot does compliment gameplay, but loot is also core in a game like warframe. Maybe WF is just not suitable for your tastes? Its by no means a bad formula as, based on my perspective, active and constant progression is a nice concept.

[Landpaddle]

On 11/19/2016 at 5:14 AM, Prosamis said:

I believe youre mixing between progression and balance; in a game like warframe or genres like MMO(rpgs especially) there will always be equipment that will be more powerful than the last; otherwise there will be no purpose or incentive to unlock new things.

This isn't exactly true. The purpose of grinding for weaponry isn't always for its raw power; often, it's to get equipment that you enjoy using, or weapons which just suit your playstyle more. If a weapon was really powerful, incredibly boring and required no skill at all, I'm sure the section of the playerbase who don't obsess over clear times wouldn't bother grinding for it beyond mastery or the pain of fissures because there are other, more interesting alternatives in place. See for instance how the Akvasto, Akmagnus, Sonicor, Kohm, Stradavar, Akjagara, Ripkas, Jat Kittag, Twin Grakatas and now the Zarr (among others) are popular less for their top-tieryness and more for their interesting or goofy mechanics or unique sound/feel.

As a personal example regarding frames: I prefer playing Nyx to Loki--despite Loki's Irradiating Disarm augment, which blows Chaos out of the water--because I prefer the frame's design and supportive abilities, like the almost-always-useful Mind Control and Absorb powers. The capacity to render a bursa among a group trivial (or an asset) and protect myself from otherwise lethal incoming damage on a dime suits my solo-oriented, conservative playstyle more than Loki's otherwise incomparable abilities. Moreover, I refuse to use frames like Ash, Ember or Nova in general because they have a repetitive 'optimal' playstyle that typically only utilizes one or two abilities and trivializes most of the game (or, in Ember's case, blindly kills anything half a tile away up to and beyond level 30).

An enlightening take on how stat-based power creep isn't at all necessary (and can discourage returning players from being staying, paying customers) is more eloquently explained and in broader terms courtesy of the Extra Credits folk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

 

[Prosamis]

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Landpaddle said:

This isn't exactly true. The purpose of grinding for weaponry isn't always for its raw power; often, it's to get equipment that you enjoy using, or weapons which just suit your playstyle more. If a weapon was really powerful, incredibly boring and required no skill at all, I'm sure the section of the playerbase who don't obsess over clear times wouldn't bother grinding for it beyond mastery or the pain of fissures because there are other, more interesting alternatives in place. See for instance how the Akvasto, Akmagnus, Sonicor, Kohm, Stradavar, Akjagara, Ripkas, Jat Kittag, Twin Grakatas and now the Zarr (among others) are popular less for their top-tieryness and more for their interesting or goofy mechanics or unique sound/feel.

As a personal example regarding frames: I prefer playing Nyx to Loki--despite Loki's Irradiating Disarm augment, which blows Chaos out of the water--because I prefer the frame's design and supportive abilities, like the almost-always-useful Mind Control and Absorb powers. The capacity to render a bursa among a group trivial (or an asset) and protect myself from otherwise lethal incoming damage on a dime suits my solo-oriented, conservative playstyle more than Loki's otherwise incomparable abilities. Moreover, I refuse to use frames like Ash, Ember or Nova in general because they have a repetitive 'optimal' playstyle that typically only utilizes one or two abilities and trivializes most of the game (or, in Ember's case, blindly kills anything half a tile away up to and beyond level 30).

An enlightening take on how stat-based power creep isn't at all necessary (and can discourage returning players from being staying, paying customers) is more eloquently explained and in broader terms courtesy of the Extra Credits folk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

 

I see your point and will check that video out soon. I did in fact forget to mention what you have pointed out yet i do still believe that a progression system with random loot and strong end game is a decent idea to the very least(personally its a great idea) Riven mods can also be fun in fact, when the system gets fixed then integrated to melees and secondaries, things can get interesting and fun. I cant wait for damage 3.0 and mod balancement(and possibly making more interesting mods)

Anyways, I agree with you and i shouldve twisted my words a bit to not show that Im only talking about raw power. Having a riven mod system which integrates interesting effects along with strong stats for progression sounds like an amazing system in my opinion. I just really feel like warframe loses its sense of excitement when it comes to looting because all the information is static and fixed, unlike rivens which are dynamic and variable. Do you agree?

[(XBOX)Silens Phoenix]

The problem here is that the RNG isn't rewarding. Even ignoring all of the other stats, just not getting a negative stat on a weapon is a 1/20 chance. To get a 50% chance of getting a Riven mod without any negatives, you need to reroll about 14 times. By the 10th reroll, you will have spent 20,100 Kuva. To get a 90% chance of not getting a negative stat, you need to reroll 45 times, which would cost exponentially more.

 

Even if you decide that certain negative stats are fine or irrelevant to the weapon, then you have to consider which positive stats are worthless. Faction damage and IPS damage are rarely going to be useful unless its a weapon you intend to use almost exclusively against that faction or has 90ish% of its IPS in one section. Weapon Zoom, i can scarcely think of any weapon I'd desire to zoom in further with. Critical stats on non-crit weapons or status stats on non-status weapons. There are a few more which can be undesirable in some cases like fire rate on a bullet hose, reload speed on a bow, etc.

 

What does that leave us with? Base and elemental damages, multi-shot, punch-through, fire rate, and crit stats or status stats (unless it's a weapon that is bad at both of them)... More situational bonuses like reload speed, magazine capacity, and flight speed maybe? That's an average of roughly 10-12 bonuses that would be universally good on a weapon.

I don't know about you, but I don't particularly desire to spend 100k Kuva just trying to a Riven mod with stats to care about. Nor does the current implementation of the system really work towards giving end game players a reason to revisit their old weapons and think what they can do with them. I will never see a Supra Arma-Satidra in trade chat, because it's for a weapon that isn't particularly good (even if it's fun as hell to use). So if I ever want to get a Riven like that, I will have to contend with a massive 1 in 253920 chance.

 

Oh, and you know what I will see in trade chat? Mods for meta or nearly meta weapons with +Damage +Multi-shot +Crit +Elemental stats, for hundreds of USD worth of plat.

[UNO168]

riven mods should serve as band-aid for outdated weapons, nothing more. Now DE is abandoning the idea of weapon balancing because they believe rng mod is gonna fix everything. When u see newly released weapon(zarr) having riven availability you know that's a big no no, new weapons should be adjusted accordingly and stay out of rng mods.

In the future when you ask yourself why new weapon has poor stats on it, they release new weapons in awful stats to serve as placeholder for riven mods and right now the stats on zarr is suspicious. I'm not engaging any trade activities regarding riven mods even DE starts selling it for plat at current state. might as well call them orokin mods instead

Edited November 27, 2016 by UNO168