Damage 3.0 and Proc Changes (V2)

[EibonEthos]

 

 

This is a revised look at my previous concept of Damage 3.0

 

Armor and Health

 

Spoiler

 

Alright, so to get started we will talk about changes to the resistances of enemies; Physical, Elemental, and Void. Currently enemies have a Health Type and, either, Armor or Shield (Sometimes both). With this revised system enemies will be broken up into Class C, Class B, and Class A enemies.

 

• Class C: Low tier enemies (Low health, Armor, Shield, and a single resistance)

• Class B: Mid tier enemies (Variable health, Armor, Shield, and resistance + type resistance)

• Class A: High tier enemies (High health, Armor, Shield, and resistance to 2 damage types + type resistance)

 

Now what this means is that damage won’t be broken up into the current system of 14-15 types of damage.

 

• Physical: This damage contains the sub-classes; Impact, Pierce, and Slash

• Elemental: This damage contains the sub-classes; Toxin, Heat, Cold, Electric, Blast, Magnetic, Gas, and Viral.

• Void: This damage contains the sub-classes; Corrosive, Radiation, and Corruption

• Pure/Finisher: This damage has no sub-classes, and no one has resistance against it.

 

As you can see above there are only 4 damage types now. Enemies will have a basic resistance vs one of these types, and it’s sub-type. With the exception of Class A enemies that will have a reduced (half of basic) resistance to a second type. For example:

 

• Grineer Butcher (LV 1)

Health: 100

Armor: 1

Damage type: Physical (Slash)

Resistance: Physical (1%)

Class: C

 

This unit deals Physical damage, and reduces Physical damage by 1%. Being a Class C enemies it’s stats increase by .5% per level. Now damage resistances are capped at 75% unless something else affects them (Like Ancient and Corrupted Healers). But no resistance will go above 99%.

 

• Grineer Bombard (LV 1)

Health: 300

Armor: 3

Damage type: Physical (Impact)

Resistance: Physical (Impact and Slash 3%)

Resistance 2: Elemental (Blast and Heat 1.5%)

Class: A

 

As you can see the Bombard is an Class A enemy, and has increased stats (The numbers used are placeholders). It also has specific resistances to sub-types. These specific resistances gives a CHANCE to ignore those status effects when they are applied. The sub-types are not damage, but a form of damage that creates a status Proc. Thus the Bombard has a 3% resistance to Physical damage, and a 3% chance to ignore Slash and Impact status effects. Now, the basic idea of this concept is as follows:

 

• Corpus: Increases shields or health as level and class improve. Resistance to Elemental.

• Grineer: Increases health or armor as level and class improve. Resistance to Physical.

• Infested: Increases health as level and class improve. Resistance to Void.

• Corrupted: Depends on what units.

• Sentient: Has only Class A units. Resistance to Elemental and Physical.

• Warframe: Depends on the frame, and can be improved with the Tweak System.

 

As you can see everything has a resistance to a particular damage type (save the Sentient). They also have a weakness that is explained as a diagram.

 

The arrows show resistance going forward. So the Corpus would sit in the [Void] square, and would have a weakness to Physical. Grineer would sit in the [Elemental] square, and have a weakness to Void. Infested in the [Physical] square, and have a weakness to Elemental. Now this is a very simplified version of this concept.

 

Armor will be a flat damage reduction. However, the big change here is that there will be 3 types of armor.

 

• Alloy: is an armor that reduces Elemental.

• Ferrite: is an armor that reduces Physical.

• Prisma: is an armor that reduces Void.

•  

Now the idea here is that certain enemies could use these to balance out their defenses making them very hard to kill once again. However, the majority of enemies (Class C and B) will only be able to use them in a very minor way. Mostly they will be used by Bosses and Warframes. In these idea Warframes will be able to modify their armor over a course of time to be more defensive. This will allow for players to grind away at materials, and/or mods that will create more unique playstyles. It will also increase the customization of Warframes.

 

Now numbers are a big deal so looking back at the Butcher we see he has 1 armor. Let’s say that means he can ignore 1 damage (Unit Level x Armor number = 1). Armor takes damage like a second health bar (Rhino’s Iron Skin), and can be destroyed. Certain enemies will be able to repair or replace armor for itself or allies during missions. This also means that Warframes also have this problem. Which opens up the floor to new concepts revolving around this and other concepts. Now shields play into this idea as well.

 

Shields and Armor will be on the same bar together. Shields will take damage first followed by Armor. Armor cannot recover naturally unless affected by Mods, Tweaks, Abilities, or something. When a warframe has been rescued Armor doesn’t get restored.

 

 

 

Modding

Spoiler

 

Ok so now we get into the modding improvements. So to start off with we remove damage increase mods (Serration, and the like). This helps reduce the power creep, and create a more balanced choice of weapons. Next we look at the Damage Augment mods (Impact, Slash, and such increases). Such mods will only be usable on weapons (show up even) depending on it’s Damage type and sub-types.

 

• Braton

Damage: Physical (Pierce)

Can Be Used: Slash / Impact mods

 

As you can see mods of the same damage Type can be applied, not not others. Hybrid weapons will exist, and can be made by Tweaking, but like Class A units the secondary damage type will be reduced. This will limit weapons to 1-2 damage Types and sub-types (status effects). Which makes one wonder about how to create the hybrid elements right?

 

Well at this point we will have to do one of two different things; 1. Use the Tweak System on mods, 2. Make the combination elements base elements.

 

Of these two ideas the second one seems more likely for [DE] to do. This will force a change in playstyles, and transform the current Meta as well. Players will have to approach missions more carefully. Warframes will be affected by this as well. Since their damage will be different depending on how their abilities function they will have an inherent Void damage amount. This amount will likely be small, and will have no Sub-type effects. Modding will still be the same for Warframes, but will likely see more mods playing with the Armor changes and defenses. Now mods themselves are going to get a small cosmetic change:

 

• F Class: previously Broken or Damaged mods

• E Class: Common mods

• D Class: Uncommon mods

• C Class: Uncommon mods

• B Class: weak Rare mods

• A Class: Rare mods

• S Class: Special Mods

• R Class: Riven Mods

 

I’m sure many will riot about this, but currently we have a huge number of “Rare” mods. The distinction between Common, Uncommon, and Rare isn’t holding water anymore. In rare mods some are really good while others are just “common”. There needs to be a greater breakup of the mod rarity. This would help when doing endless missions, and farming since the mod color would help new players know if it is actually a rare mod or a common one. Beyond that no changes should be made to Mods themselves. Besides some Weapon Augments (TBC).

 

 

 

Tweak System

Spoiler

 

Ok, so many players have wanted more customization when it comes to their favorite frames. With Focus and Arcanes you can do a few things to tweak your builds and improve them. However, sometimes it seems like it could be better, like when you see those mods to reduce Toxin or Heat effects. What if we could have a Tweaking system that would allow us to use Forma to change how our warframe, weapons, and companions functioned?

 

Soma Prime

• Damage: 12

• Type: Physical (Tweak: Thermal Rounds)

• Sub-Type: Slash

• Crit Chance: 30%

• Crit Damage: 3x

• Noise: 45m (Tweak: Silence)

• Reload Time: 3sec

• Mag Size: 300 (Tweak: Converter)

• Max Ammo: 800

• Status Chance: 10%

• Accuracy: 28.6 (Tweak: Zoom)

 

Ok, so here we have the Soma Prime which has been tweaked a couple of times (the system may or may not need limitations on the number). Each tweak would use a Forma, and perhaps other materials to alter weapons (Likely only maxed out weapons). For a bit of explanation; Thermal Rounds changes a percentage of the damage into Elemental with a sub-type of Heat (can be applied more than once), Silence would be a multi-tweak to reduce noise, Converter would also be a multi-tweak for converting ammo types, and Zoom would increase accuracy based on how long you zoom in. These are just some examples of how it could work. Now like Corrupted or Riven Mods these tweaks might result in negative changes to the weapon as a compensation. This wouldn’t be random but would relate to how much tweaking to a particular stat you have done.

 

This would allow players more control over their weapons, and combining this with re-worked mods could give you more hybrid damage. Also would make builds far more diverse than currently seen. The Tweaking system would be viable for making Warframes more diverse as well. By limiting the number of tweaks to frames would make it more challenging.

 

• Health: 100 (Tweak: Blast Gene)

• Shield: 150 (Tweak: Acid Field)

• Armor: 190

• Power: 100 (Tweak: Reserve)

• Sprint: .95

 

These are the base stats for Rhino frame. The above tweaks; Blast Gene gives a chance to resist Blast procs, Acid Field makes shields absorb Toxin-based status effects, and Reserve creates a pool of energy that can be used when drained. These are just a few of the ideas that could be used to make the system viable.

 

 

 

 

Status Procs

 

Spoiler

 

Physical

• Puncture - Reduces Armor by 10% (stacking) and 150% base Finisher over 3

• Impact - Reduces “Motion” by 5% (stacking) and 100% base Finisher over 5

• Slash - Reduces “Healing” by 10% (stacking) and 200% base Finisher over 6

 

Elemental

• Heat - 150% base damage every second for 3 seconds (refreshing)

• Cold - 5% “Motion” slow for 5 seconds (stacking until 100% then frozen)

• Electric - stuns for 3 seconds (refreshing)

• Toxin - 20% base damage over 6 seconds (stacking)

• Blast - Deals 150% base damage within 5 meters, and knocks down  

• Viral - 10% base damage each second for 3 seconds (stacking, once at 100% chains)

• Gas - cloud for 15% total damage each second for 10 seconds (nearby clouds connect)

• Magnetic - disarms weapons for 6 seconds and polarized (stacking)

 

Void

• Corrosive - 2% health damage per sec for 5 seconds(non-stacking), and -20% current armor (permanent)

• Radiation - confuses enemies and deals 5% base damage as finisher (stacking)

• Corruption - causes enemies to ignore the player for 5 seconds. Damaging nearby enemies will alert affected enemies unless it’s a Corruption effect.

 

To further explain a few of the status procs. Magnetic causes a simple disarm with a not so simple polarized effect. Polarize is a stacking effect causing bullets to sometimes hit them. At 10 stacks of this it is a 5 meter field that pulls in all Physical projectiles. The stacks only last 12 seconds, so the process of stacking must be fairly quick. Once it reaches 10 stacks the effect lasts 24 seconds, and cannot be refreshed. Corruption is a choice for non-stealth frames to make them stealthy. It’s proc will cause enemies to see them as a fellow Grineer, Corpus, Infested, etc. If you have a high status weapon it can be a great choice for ninja.

 

Gas procs create a small cloud not at all different from currently in game. However, these clouds will slowly grow outward if another cloud is within a certain distance. If clouds connect they refresh each other, and add to the total damage. This cannot exceed restrictions, but is an excellent way to create kill zones. Viral is like Toxin, but it’s self stacking up to three times. At 10 stacks it spreads to all enemies at 1 stack per second within 5 meters. The stacks can exceed 10, but only from new procs of Viral.

 

 

Conclusion

 

The problems of the current system fall mainly in that it greatly limits loadouts to be Slash heavy, or to be heavy CC. In End game content the enemies are so resistant to damage that the Finisher damage that Slash Procs create is the only viable way to fight them. Blast also tends to have a massive effect on defenses, but is less used than Corrosive or Slash. Currently, Warframe sports a massive number of Mods, about 835, and roughly 50 are used in all builds with the random augments thrown in. Even event mods are often collected rather than used by most players in most circumstances.

 

This problem makes a stagnant gameplay that dances between nearly impossible to sleeping through missions. Few missions really challenge players to think, and play it smart; Spy. If we look at another game, Monster Hunter. They created a strong, consistently challenging playstyle using a character that never gained health or energy. In fact it never leveled up. By completing certain milestones it can take on harder quests, and it created weapons and armor from it’s kills. Yet, the player never gains stats outside of those weapons and armor. The skill level for the game is impressive. Another game like it is Soul Sacrifice, and the reason why I bring them up is their consistent design. Warframe is a changing game, and has been around for a long time.

 

There are expected bumps along the road to success, but we the player base have to help DE in finding the flaws. If we talk loud enough we will get answers. Just look at the players who get mentioned on Prime Time or Dev Streams for their fan works.

 

At the end of the day it’s not about making everything stronger, and more flashy. Sometimes it’s about scaling back, and making it more rewarding. Let’s build a foundation solid, and strong for this great game of ours!

Edited December 13, 2016 by EibonEthos

[EibonEthos]

Added "Tweaking System"

Added information on mod changes

 

[LunarEdge7]

I'll just follow this and see where it goes. Might work.

[(XBOX)Astron1701]

interesting concept.. I think I like it

[EibonEthos]

Thank you. If you have any ideas you think might go well with it feel free to share.

[voltocitygel]

Hm. Very different. Not a bad idea though.

Though I do like my bleed DoT on slash. Puncture certainly needs a change though, the affected unit dealing less damage is good, but... not good enough when it takes however many shots to proc ONE enemy. Unless it's a bombard or heavy gunner, I've never noticed the difference with the current proc. Also agree that magnetic needs a buff. Still think that disabling energy weapons only would be a bit weak, making it still useless against non corpus. Maybe have it have a chance to disarm grineer? (Since their weapons are all made of metal?) 

for the most part I like the current procs, and I like that you stuck with the spirit of them in most cases. Like some of the changes you've suggested, though.

[EibonEthos]

@voltocitygel

My system would keep the bleed DoT on slash, but also give it and the other base procs more utility. The base procs when paired up with elemental procs could lead to damage debuffs or other powerful effects. The idea isn't to limit the end-game tools and frames, but to expand the current system's basic elements. This way frames, weapons, pets, and more can be balanced out from the ground up. Then, future edits to such things will occur based on a fairly level playing field.

-Edited the posting for clearer reading

-Changed Magnetic Proc

-Added links for easy access to research materials

-Added Warframe Tweaking

-Added Resistance Mod Changes

Edited December 2, 2016 by EibonEthos

[voltocitygel]

Yeah, it sounds like a great idea to me. Status effects have never quite been on par with crits, and I think this would do it. 

The tweak system seems interesting too. I like it. 

Great ideas, keep up the good work!

[EibonEthos]

Thank you. Status procs are a solid solution to end game problems of the Meta. I hope I can continue to get feedback to improve this. The Tweak System is more of a side idea to improve quality of life for players.

Edited December 3, 2016 by EibonEthos

[EibonEthos]

-Added Explanation of Armor and Health continuity

-Changed some previous information

[EibonEthos]

-Tweaked language

-Hoping for more input

[voltocitygel]

2 hours ago, EibonEthos said:

-Tweaked language

-Hoping for more input

Sorry, not much more input here. 

Only thing I can say is that as a volt player, I've always felt that electric damage itself was a bit underpowered, but I've still managed to make it work. I know a lot of people have wanted electric procs to open up melee finishers, but I think the proc is plenty powerful. AoE damage and stun? That's crazy good. The damage type and effects itself are all. I'd love to see a 25% bonus against ferrite based armor to compensate for the 50% reduction from alloy. 

*shrugs* like I said, not much more advice I can give regarding your system, but I like the look and the idea.

[FoxFX]

If there is anything from HERE that might be of assistance to this concept, let it be so. I will like to comment later on this once I have the time.

[EibonEthos]

@FoxFX

If you would allow me I would like to incorporate your concept for the 4 damage TYPES. Using status procs as variations on those 4, and having enemies be resistant to the Types. This would simplify the damage system a bit more, and I think it would be good for both new and old players. If you would like we could exchange information, and have a sit-down talk about how we could merge the two ideas. As a Founder you were around in the early days like I was (though I never got a star), and I respect that. I hope you would like to have a chat sometime :D

 

@voltocitygel

You have given plenty of feedback don't worry. If you happen to find some people wanting to read something feel free to send them this way.

 

[FoxFX]

3 hours ago, EibonEthos said:

@FoxFX

If you would allow me I would like to incorporate your concept for the 4 damage TYPES. Using status procs as variations on those 4, and having enemies be resistant to the Types. This would simplify the damage system a bit more, and I think it would be good for both new and old players. If you would like we could exchange information, and have a sit-down talk about how we could merge the two ideas. As a Founder you were around in the early days like I was (though I never got a star), and I respect that. I hope you would like to have a chat sometime :D

 

@voltocitygel

You have given plenty of feedback don't worry. If you happen to find some people wanting to read something feel free to send them this way.

 

You are allowed. I just hope what I've presented will help out.

[voltocitygel]

@EibonEthos Glad I could help! c:

also, nice to see another player that's been around as long as I have that isn't a founder xD Would be if i had had the money to spare, BUT.... I was in high school, and even more-- well.... if you aren't counting debt from paying for University, i was more broke. If you are, then well... No contest.

[EibonEthos]

@FoxFX

I used your work for this re-written version of the concept. Would love to hear your feedback.

 

- Upgraded to V2

- Changed a lot

 

[lodoubt]

You've missed out on crit, which I believe needs to be reworked dramatically as part of Damage 3.0 as well.

I have previously made the suggestion that crit be unified with headshot multipliers and have crit damage determine the multiplier, and crit chance determine the sensitivity of the head hitbox, IE 5% crit means you need to nail them right in the forehead, 20% is just the head, 25% might include the neck as well, at 100% crit, half of their surface area is a 'headshot' and then over 100% creates a stacking headshot multiplier that caps out at a quarter of their total surface area when you hit 200%, etc.

I also notice that you don't have elemental 'weaknesses' as a thing, which bothers me a little.

Edited December 9, 2016 by lodoubt

[EibonEthos]

@lodoubt

What do you mean by elemental weaknesses? Criticals are in an alright place right now, and likely I will touch on them later. This will continue to get improved as I get feedback.

[lodoubt]

On 12/10/2016 at 9:24 AM, EibonEthos said:

@lodoubt

What do you mean by elemental weaknesses? Criticals are in an alright place right now, and likely I will touch on them later. This will continue to get improved as I get feedback.

As in, in your suggested progression of enemy elemental resists, you have scaling elemental damage resistances but no enemy specific element weaknesses. IE there is no way of performing better than the rated damage or status chance of your weapon by using it against enemies weak to the specific combination of elements you have built for your weapon.

Edited December 13, 2016 by lodoubt

[EibonEthos]

-Changed grammar and syntax

If you read the Diagram part of the Armor and Health section. You will see that I stated the weaknesses to the general 3 damage types; Physical, Elemental, and Void. The damage sub-types are used only for Proc effects, and are not classified as "damage types". This way all units of factions have a general damage resistance that can be armed against making mission loadouts both easier and more important. Even the Class C enemies only get a max of 99% to their main type, and 50% to their secondary type. This leaves the third damage open to deal solid damage. Since the secondary resistance will not be the weakness of the faction you will always have a way to combat a single faction. In the case of dual factions on a map (IE: Crossfires and Void Rifts) damage sub-types become the main focus since their status procs will be more valuable then their raw damage amounts.

Here is where criticals might get a change around. In the instance of mixing procs and crits to enhance proc effects, and enable more raw damage output. The greatest challenge or reworking crit at this point is the fact that some weapons use it to make their damage insane as it is. So, caution must be walked when reviewing it.

@lodoubt

I hope this addresses your questions on the matter.

 

[PR1D3]

I raise this from the grave as it's still an awesome idea, we still haven't gotten damage 3.0, and currently we're still in this problem with how we do damage, as well as how we mod and take it.