Does Rng really help retention?

[Caelward]

How much are we really willing to fight with RNG to access new stuff?

I mean, I was thinking about logging in and doing the sortie for another attempt at a Riven, since I have yet to find one.

But you know, Today's been long. I'm tired. Grinding for Rivens is not fun or relaxing when I have so little faith that the game will give it to me. So I'm probably not logging in. Maybe tomorrow. We'll see.

 

All it takes is some time with no luck, then one bad day and one last run that yeilds no desired returns but does take a lot of work, and then gone.

And the rng is already triple layered here. Rng to find a riven. Rng to roll a riven for a weapon you'd like. Rng to try re-rolling the stats until you get something that works. And that doesn't even include whatever unlock requirements appear on the mod.

 

Can we get another look at the token system? I'd be happy if I could gain a set number of tokens to allow me to get a Riven every two days. I could live with 3 days really. But without any certainty that the sortie will actually give me those mods, I'm just about out of interest for the time being. Being able to collect tokens with the knowledge that I can and will get a riven token for my efforts changes the whole scenario. And there are how many weapons in the game? There are ALOT of different guns to choose from, but I've got one single riven to play with. I don't see why this has to be so hard, but that's how it's ended up.

 

Chances are good I'm not going to get a Riven mod that is even usable on the first try anyway. But I can WORK WITH THAT. I can do siphon missions and collect Kuva. That's perfectly fine. But never seeing the mod in the first place? Its a daily slap in the face whenever I do a sortie and get something I didn't want/dont need.

How am I supposed to believe that this experience is there to keep me playing.

And please don't comment with 'Oh I've got a riven every third run, game works fine'. I understand it's working for you, but that does not apply to my experience here.

[Vohim]

sadly the whole game revolves around rng 

 

wich is why its dead to me until new content is out and even that is dead on arrival when it comes to prime gear thanks to rng  relic farm rng trace farm rng rng relic rewards chance 

 

and buying stuff is unnaceptable for me  

 80$ for a primed warframe ? that'd be  about 16 -8 characters worth  in any other videogame

[Magnar21]

Odds of getting a riven are 1 out of 5, based on the reward tables. Not posting that stuff here. Don't have time to discuss how RNG increases retention, but it does stagger desired rewards across a longer period of time. Studies also show that adding perceived randomness to rewards increases habit forming (study on not always giving a reward for desired behavior, and varying the desirableness of the reward without the test subject's knowledge.)

In short, you're running in a Skinner box treadmill, and DE's got you (and me, and everyone else in Warframe) pressing the little mission button, jumping through the hoops, in order for a chance to get a prize.

Bonus: this is why most jobs pay on a 2-week pay cycle, rather than letting you get paid at the end of a shift.

 

sadly the whole game revolves around rng 

 

wich is why its dead to me until new content is out and even that is dead on arrival when it comes to prime gear thanks to rng  relic farm rng trace farm rng rng relic rewards chance 

 

and buying stuff is unnaceptable for me  

 80$ for a primed warframe ? that'd be  about 16 -8 characters worth  in any other videogame

 

Ahhahah, 80 USD isn't the price for a primed warframe, it's you get 80 USD of platinum, with a side of Warframe. If you want the primed gear, you're better off buying Plat and then buying the warframe proper from other players.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Magnar21

[Caelward]

They don't have me if the skinner box doesn't actually give the rewards though.

Greater useless lens today. Still no Riven. If I didn't have a couple friends in the warframe mood at this time I simply wouldn't be playing now.

[Magnar21]

I played 2 days after TWW launched until the sortie reward pack: 2k endo each day, and a Naramon lens once. RNG hates me.

And i've gotten a riven mod both yesterday and today, bringing my riven count to three. RNG happens.

In terms of feedback, greater lenses should be made tradable or removed, nitain should be removed or changed to a bonus of some kind (and thus out of the Riven pool), and 2k endo needs to give 2-4 times more than it does atm. 4k Endo should be moved to around 10k. In other words, each reword needs to feel good when you get it, even if it wasn't what you hoped for.

2k endo feels like a kick in the balls when i can get 1k endo from a short excavation or 45min surv.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Magnar21

[EinheriarJudith]

On 12/1/2016 at 8:54 PM, Caelward said:

Can we get another look at the token system? I'd be happy if I could gain a set number of tokens to allow me to get a Riven every two days. I could live with 3 days really. But without any certainty that the sortie will actually give me those mods, I'm just about out of interest for the time being. Being able to collect tokens with the knowledge that I can and will get a riven token for my efforts changes the whole scenario. And there are how many weapons in the game? There are ALOT of different guns to choose from, but I've got one single riven to play with. I don't see why this has to be so hard, but that's how it's ended up.

traces are a token system. but you see how it hasnt really fixed the drop rate because it is still left to RNG. id rather have them put in other ways to acquire them because these mods are not the so called end game they are bandaid fix to make the older weapons relevant later on but failed because they increase the power creep. the disposition is much like the corrupted mods. so what we have are higher tier version corrupted mods.

they could do something with simarus like getting a daily mission from him to use a random weapon which is given to you when you enter the mission to do a random objective as seen on the rivens since you know simarus loves knowledge.

Edited December 3, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[Caelward]

Next day, another Greater lens. Greater Vazarin today.

[Shockwave-]

On 12/1/2016 at 9:17 PM, Magnar21 said:

Bonus: this is why most jobs pay on a 2-week pay cycle, rather than letting you get paid at the end of a shift.

Staggered rewards has nothing to do with being paid every 2 weeks. A predictable cycle would defeat the staggered reward. Pay every two weeks is to save money. The company pays less staff, less transfer fees and perpetually earns interest on 2 weeks of payroll (which is significant in large corporations)

[Caelward]

And now I've recieved a third lens, an Unairu lens.

So three days in a row, lenses. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these all 'uncommon' drops?

What's going on with the Sortie drop table? This is extremely frustrating.

[ninjacat2015]

F2P games dont care about long term retention. They operate on basis of few whales spending dispropotionate amount of money.

[--RV--Draconian]

Having Rivens be a random drop ensures players to have less of them, encourages people to spend plat to buy them, encourages people to play the game to farm kuva, while not farming the mods themselves. Thankfully, the playerbase is dedicated enough to still play the game, despite myriad of rng.

And to answer your question - you're still playing the game to try and get the riven mods, don't you? That means retention is high enough.

You can also check this link to possibly see the retention yourself http://steamcharts.com/app/230410#3m

[Magnar21]

23 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Staggered rewards has nothing to do with being paid every 2 weeks. A predictable cycle would defeat the staggered reward. Pay every two weeks is to save money. The company pays less staff, less transfer fees and perpetually earns interest on 2 weeks of payroll (which is significant in large corporations)

As far as the psychology is concerned, they are certainly related. You talked about the physical, monetary aspects of the pay cycle, I addressed the psychological. Statistically speaking, you are far more likely to continue working at your job if you have to wait days in between each paycheck than if you were to get paid on a daily basis. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-dolphin-divide/201206/psychic-magic-why-we-work-paychecks-0

" It wasn’t until later (much later) that we humans collectively refined the notion of postponement of gratification to the point of willingly accepting a paycheck as substitute for a side of beef or a cozy apartment. "

The takeaway here, is postponement of gratification. Unfortunately, I no longer have my psychology textbook, but I remember it being right next to Skinner and Pavlov in the chapter. Meh.

 

And for a more practical example:

Firefall attempted to use a more fair loot system. Said system was later augmented with a traditional loot system some time later.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Magnar21

[Caelward]

My problem here is that the skinner box is broken.

The Rng here isn't making this a thing I have to work towards, it is making into a thing I cannot get.

But really I'm just using this particular thread to complain, so I'm gonna end it here.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Caelward

[Shockwave-]

On 12/5/2016 at 11:40 PM, Magnar21 said:

As far as the psychology is concerned, they are certainly related. You talked about the physical, monetary aspects of the pay cycle, I addressed the psychological. Statistically speaking, you are far more likely to continue working at your job if you have to wait days in between each paycheck than if you were to get paid on a daily basis. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-dolphin-divide/201206/psychic-magic-why-we-work-paychecks-0

" It wasn’t until later (much later) that we humans collectively refined the notion of postponement of gratification to the point of willingly accepting a paycheck as substitute for a side of beef or a cozy apartment. "

The takeaway here, is postponement of gratification. Unfortunately, I no longer have my psychology textbook, but I remember it being right next to Skinner and Pavlov in the chapter. Meh.

 

And for a more practical example:

Firefall attempted to use a more fair loot system. Said system was later augmented with a traditional loot system some time later.

yeah, but nothing you said here is related to staggered rewards, nor is the article you linked. It doesn't even come within the same ballpark. In fact, nowhere in your link does it even address your statement that we are less likely to leave a job if paid every two weeks than every day. Perhaps you linked the wrong thing.

Staggered rewards means not rewarding you every time. A random reward schedule, which is a stronger reinforcer than a set reward schedule. Paying every two weeks isn't a stronger reinforcer than getting paid every day as both are a set reward schedule, however say lottery tickets are a staggered reward, you aren't sure the reward is coming. What this does is prevent the lack of reward from stopping the behavior. If we stop getting paid every two weeks, even missing a SINGLE paycheck, we'd quit. However if we win every couple weeks at the lottery (even 2 bucks or whatnot) we can then go weeks without winning before we decide we aren't going to win again and quit.

That is why RNG rewarding like prime gathering is a much better tool in the game for DE, because it takes for longer for a conditioned behavior to abate when it was originally conditioned with random/staggered rewards.

 

[Magnar21]

On 12/12/2016 at 2:04 AM, Shockwave- said:

yeah, but nothing you said here is related to staggered rewards, nor is the article you linked. It doesn't even come within the same ballpark. In fact, nowhere in your link does it even address your statement that we are less likely to leave a job if paid every two weeks than every day. Perhaps you linked the wrong thing.

Staggered rewards means not rewarding you every time. A random reward schedule, which is a stronger reinforcer than a set reward schedule. Paying every two weeks isn't a stronger reinforcer than getting paid every day as both are a set reward schedule, however say lottery tickets are a staggered reward, you aren't sure the reward is coming. What this does is prevent the lack of reward from stopping the behavior. If we stop getting paid every two weeks, even missing a SINGLE paycheck, we'd quit. However if we win every couple weeks at the lottery (even 2 bucks or whatnot) we can then go weeks without winning before we decide we aren't going to win again and quit.

That is why RNG rewarding like prime gathering is a much better tool in the game for DE, because it takes for longer for a conditioned behavior to abate when it was originally conditioned with random/staggered rewards.

 

The OP was asking if RNG increases retention, and while I used your post as a springboard, I was still addressing the OP, at least in part. Not all of my post was directed towards you, if for no other reason than that without my textbook, I can't look up the sources I had way back when. And to compound the difficulties, my flash drive with the sources and notes I made was stolen. I suppose I could have written that I was no longer addressing you, but this is what you get from the sleep-deprived me while I'm trying to change work schedules. As for my sources: the first one was only remotely related to what I was arguing (and I honestly linked it for that single paragraph alone, as it doesn't matter if the source material was on my topic, as long as the context supports it), and the second was intended towards the OP.

On Paychecks vs pay:

The link I gave was on why we are paid with cash vs actual goods. The only paragraph I'm concerned with, was one that the author deviated slightly from his topic material. Again, not completely applicable to my topic, but related. It's still all based on classical conditioning. Point is, retention of employees goes up when you delay the reward, hence the idea of "delayed gratification". This is why video games have forms of this. In your mind, you get a bit of Affinity when slaying enemies; from a psychology perspective, you are performing a task (killing enemies) for a promised reward later (leveling something up).

More on track though... you're already arguing my point, so without my sources to prove what you already believe, there's really no reason for me to try to prove it.

[Shockwave-]

9 hours ago, Magnar21 said:

The OP was asking if RNG increases retention, and while I used your post as a springboard, I was still addressing the OP, at least in part. Not all of my post was directed towards you, if for no other reason than that without my textbook, I can't look up the sources I had way back when. And to compound the difficulties, my flash drive with the sources and notes I made was stolen. I suppose I could have written that I was no longer addressing you, but this is what you get from the sleep-deprived me while I'm trying to change work schedules. As for my sources: the first one was only remotely related to what I was arguing (and I honestly linked it for that single paragraph alone, as it doesn't matter if the source material was on my topic, as long as the context supports it), and the second was intended towards the OP.

On Paychecks vs pay:

The link I gave was on why we are paid with cash vs actual goods. The only paragraph I'm concerned with, was one that the author deviated slightly from his topic material. Again, not completely applicable to my topic, but related. It's still all based on classical conditioning. Point is, retention of employees goes up when you delay the reward, hence the idea of "delayed gratification". This is why video games have forms of this. In your mind, you get a bit of Affinity when slaying enemies; from a psychology perspective, you are performing a task (killing enemies) for a promised reward later (leveling something up).

More on track though... you're already arguing my point, so without my sources to prove what you already believe, there's really no reason for me to try to prove it.

" Point is, retention of employees goes up when you delay the reward, "

No it doesn't. And your link doesn't say so, That was my point, but this is getting off topic.